stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success

[Vince B]

I don't need equations. Bodybuilding isn't rocket science. It might as well be if we go by what the wannabes on Getbig believe.

The logic of my reverse engineering is behind the thought experiments. I have been bold, introduced something new and reformulated many of the principles long accepted in bodybuilding jargon. I hardly expect those who favour lifting free weights in gyms to abandon what they know. However, their closed minds prevents them from examining the theory afresh and embracing new ideas.

The sad fact is over 90% of advanced bodybuilders do not make any further progress. That probably applies to advanced intermediates as well. Most are on plateaus and have no clue except to resort to chemical tricks to get bigger. Just about everyone has abandoned a search for better methods. It is staring you in the face but you have been blinded by vulgar musclehead viruses that have destroyed your capacity to think logically and bravely.

[Coach is Back!]

I don't need equations. Bodybuilding isn't rocket science. It might as well be if we go by what the wannabes on Getbig believe.

The logic of my reverse engineering is behind the thought experiments. I have been bold, introduced something new and reformulated many of the principles long accepted in bodybuilding jargon. I hardly expect those who favour lifting free weights in gyms to abandon what they know. However, their closed minds prevents them from examining the theory afresh and embracing new ideas.

The sad fact is over 90% of advanced bodybuilders do not make any further progress. That probably applies to advanced intermediates as well. Most are on plateaus and have no clue except to resort to chemical tricks to get bigger. Just about everyone has abandoned a search for better methods. It is staring you in the face but you have been blinded by vulgar musclehead viruses that have destroyed your capacity to think logically and bravely.

Just found GH15's alter ego.

[lovemonkey]

I don't need equations. Bodybuilding isn't rocket science. It might as well be if we go by what the wannabes on Getbig believe.

The logic of my reverse engineering is behind the thought experiments. I have been bold, introduced something new and reformulated many of the principles long accepted in bodybuilding jargon. I hardly expect those who favour lifting free weights in gyms to abandon what they know. However, their closed minds prevents them from examining the theory afresh and embracing new ideas.

The sad fact is over 90% of advanced bodybuilders do not make any further progress. That probably applies to advanced intermediates as well. Most are on plateaus and have no clue except to resort to chemical tricks to get bigger. Just about everyone has abandoned a search for better methods. It is staring you in the face but you have been blinded by vulgar musclehead viruses that have destroyed your capacity to think logically and bravely.

So lets see.

You don't need "equations". You don't need proof. You don't need any scientific studies because there are none   You always think you're right. Everyone else are idiots.



Yep, that's what science and open minded thinking is all about. You've captured it nicely there.

[tbombz]

k. i've seen a lot of stupid shit online, from guys who claim to know what they are talking about, but this is probably the most stupid thing i have ever read.

i think what happens a lot of time is that people get caught up with 'what they've read/ what studies show' when in the real world the application of said 'knowledge' results in less than positive results- but that doesnt matter cause its an accredited study done by a phd  

heres a good example- ''tbombz' will argue up and down his stance on something based on what he's read. where as the real world application that he doesnt agree with due to it not being 'in what he's read' is not only effective, but highly effective- take ed tren administration. hed argue all day long it makes no difference if you take it ed or eod. but those who take it to the person will say ed administration yields far superior results, even though nobody can really say why. but because he hasnt read that it in a study that ed admin is better it is impossible for it to be.

too many textbook scientists on this site, not enough real world experience talking.

KEEP MY NAME OUT YOUR MOUTH BITCH

[pellius]

Vince, I think one of the reasons is that you have very little credibility here is that you make a lot of claims, some seemingly outrageous, but provide no proof or studies to support your beliefs. And then you accuse others of disregarding science and only going by muscle mags, hear say, and "bro science."

I've challenge you several times on two claims you have made and offered studies that dispute your beliefs. One is the claim that you only need 20-50 grams of protein per day and claim this has been known for decades. I think this claim comes as a surprise to many and I doubt that even you yourself follow this protocol. One would have to either be a vegetarian or really go out of their way to avoid protein if they eat a normal diet.

You also claim that age has nothing to do and certainly no obstacle to gaining muscle mass. In fact, you claim that it's easier for an older person to gain muscle mass than a younger person. Not only has this been disproved in the real world all throughout history there are studies that confirm this very real phenomenon and how the body goes through very real and obvious changes as it ages, most importantly for our purposes, is atrophy whether you engage in resistance training or not.

Please address these two claims and back it up with proof and studies. No excuses about how we are just flotsam and wouldn't understand or comprehend the studies or that you are under no obligation to provide information for free to back up claims you yourself make.
I'm just sincerely asking you to address these two issues because I have not been about to find anything from my own research to support your claims. If you once again ignore this very simple request then I just have to assume you are just here to spout out your theories having no interest in real discussion and debate which is what you claim you want and accuse this board of rejecting. And if that is the case, why are you here?


Protein requirements of the sedentary versus athletes
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1474076

As Good As It Gets: Octogenarian Muscles Don't Get Stronger With Exercise, Study Finds
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090331091250.htm

Aging Muscles: 'Hard To Build, Easy To Lose'
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090911103807.htm
 

[Vince B]

Pellius, a serious concern deserves a considered response.

Let me address the issue of having successful people who have used my system and grown rapidly. Even if I had these people that is hardly sufficient proof for my theory. I am a student of the philosophy of science and as such embrace the standard that Karl Popper espoused many years ago. If one person follows my method and does not grow rapidly then my theory is false and will have to be modified. If it cannot solve the problem of the hardgainer then my theory will have to be abandoned. That is a strict test of the theory. In other words, I accept falsification as the test. If no one can falsify my theory then it has a good chance of being right.

If I am given groups of older men to train and cannot get them all to grow then my comment about being able to grow at almost any age is false. I have no doubt that everyone will grow. I haven't seen that my capacity to hypertrophy has diminished at all. I will be 69 this September.

The research re bodybuilding and nutrition has to be examined carefully before we can accept it. I still believe that no additional protein is needed if one is eating a balanced diet and providing sufficient calories to grow. That almost everyone else believes you need extra protein is a curiosity. It doesn't mean it is true.

[backday]

Pellius give it up man , you would never get a valid answer, many have tried for years and did not get any either.
By the way I think you are a very good poster, and I enjoy reading you.

[pellius]

Pellius give it up man , you would never get a valid answer, many have tryed for years and did not get any either.
By the way I think you are a very good poster, and i enjoy reading you.

I want the kind of back you have. Many just look for wide lats and that exaggerated V taper. I like that thickness especially in the middle and lower back that you have. Very, very impressive.

One thing that I appreciate about Vince is that as much shit that it gets here he always maintains a certain level of decorum that connotes a measure of dignity that is unappreciated if not entirely lost on this generation. You never hear him resort to crude profanity that proliferates on this board, which I myself am guilty of. I get frustrated and angry with him at times and there was a time when I would insult him with the crudest of invectives when it suddenly dawned on me that he never responded in kind. The most you could get out of him was maybe "flotsam" and some other mild insults but never abject profanity. This caused me some degree of shame (which is another trait increasingly rare in what seems now to be an utterly shameless culture) and I made a personal vow that no matter how much he incites me I will always show him the degree of respect and courtesy that he has always shown me and no longer resort to crude and profane insults.

But as of now this only applies to him. Everyone else is fair game.  
 

[pellius]

Pellius, a serious concern deserves a considered response.

Let me address the issue of having successful people who have used my system and grown rapidly. Even if I had these people that is hardly sufficient proof for my theory. I am a student of the philosophy of science and as such embrace the standard that Karl Popper espoused many years ago. If one person follows my method and does not grow rapidly then my theory is false and will have to be modified. If it cannot solve the problem of the hardgainer then my theory will have to be abandoned. That is a strict test of the theory. In other words, I accept falsification as the test. If no one can falsify my theory then it has a good chance of being right.

If I am given groups of older men to train and cannot get them all to grow then my comment about being able to grow at almost any age is false. I have no doubt that everyone will grow. I haven't seen that my capacity to hypertrophy has diminished at all. I will be 69 this September.

The research re bodybuilding and nutrition has to be examined carefully before we can accept it. I still believe that no additional protein is needed if one is eating a balanced diet and providing sufficient calories to grow. That almost everyone else believes you need extra protein is a curiosity. It doesn't mean it is true.

First the nutrition part, here you are being far, far less specific. You talk about a balanced diet. What does that mean? How do you define "extra" protein and does it vary between a sedentary individual and a strength athlete? I wanted you to address the claim you made that you only need 20-50 grams of protein a day and that this has been know for decades presumably by scientific studies. It appears now you are claiming it is just your "belief" with nothing to back it up with. This is the very thing you accuse the flotsam of doing. Making claims without any concrete studies to back it up.

Here is a portion of the study I linked to that you obviously ignored. Definition of terms SA (strength athletes), LP (Low Protein define here as .5 grams of protein per pound of body weight), WBPS (Whole Body Protein Synthesis), MP (Medium Protein defined here as .8 grams of protein per pound of body weight).

It showed clearly that for someone of my weight (approx. 185 lbs) an LP diet of around 90 grams would hardly be enough though it is twice the amount you recommend.

For SA, the LP diet did not provide adequate protein and resulted in an accommodated state (decreased WBPS vs. MP and HP), and the MP diet resulted in a state of adaptation [increase in WBPS.

[pellius]

Pellius, a serious concern deserves a considered response.

Let me address the issue of having successful people who have used my system and grown rapidly. Even if I had these people that is hardly sufficient proof for my theory. I am a student of the philosophy of science and as such embrace the standard that Karl Popper espoused many years ago. If one person follows my method and does not grow rapidly then my theory is false and will have to be modified. If it cannot solve the problem of the hardgainer then my theory will have to be abandoned. That is a strict test of the theory. In other words, I accept falsification as the test. If no one can falsify my theory then it has a good chance of being right.

If I am given groups of older men to train and cannot get them all to grow then my comment about being able to grow at almost any age is false. I have no doubt that everyone will grow. I haven't seen that my capacity to hypertrophy has diminished at all. I will be 69 this September.

The research re bodybuilding and nutrition has to be examined carefully before we can accept it. I still believe that no additional protein is needed if one is eating a balanced diet and providing sufficient calories to grow. That almost everyone else believes you need extra protein is a curiosity. It doesn't mean it is true.

To address the claim that age has nothing to do with gaining muscle mass and may even prove an advantage: Again you offered no studies or real world examples though there are studies to dispute that claim and literally an infinite amount of real world examples given throughout human history. And how do you know that your capacity to hypertrophy has not diminished at all? Have you ever put that to a real world test? Are you claiming that you could duplicate, and even exceed, your Mr. Canada condition? You can prove your "beliefs" first hand and if successful can achieve something that no one else has every done in history. And I have no doubt, no matter how many people here dislike you, they will give you the props you deserve and you would shut them up for good. Hell, Ron may even give you those colored stars. In fact, I'm sure he would. I hope someone here will shop present day Vince's head on his past Mr. Canada physique for some inspiration. I'm sure Keith/No Worries would have jumped at the chance (RIP Big Man).

Some excerpts of the scientific studies that I linked to which also seems to have gone ignored.

As a result of the exercise program, the octogenarians were able to increase the amount they could lift with their quadriceps by 26%. That was the good news. The bad news was that the pre- and post-training MRIs showed that the training did not change their muscle size. The octogenarians were able to lift more weight after the training program, likely because the nervous system became more efficient at activating and synchronizing muscles.  

The genes involved in muscle growth are present in the resting muscle of the octogenarians at much higher levels compared to young people. These results suggest that the octogenarian muscle is already operating at peak capacity and may not have the potential for better performance, Dr. Trappe said.

A team of Nottingham researchers has already shown that when older people eat, they cannot make muscle as fast as the young. Now they’ve found that the suppression of muscle breakdown, which also happens during feeding, is blunted with age. These results may explain the ongoing loss of muscle in older people: when they eat they don’t build enough muscle with the protein in food; also, the insulin (a hormone released during a meal) fails to shut down the muscle breakdown that rises between meals and overnight. Normally, in young people, insulin acts to slow muscle breakdown. Common to these problems may be a failure to deliver nutrients and hormones to muscle because of a poorer blood supply.

[backday]

I want the kind of back you have. Many just look for wide lats and that exaggerated V taper. I like that thickness especially in the middle and lower back that you have. Very, very impressive.

One thing that I appreciate about Vince is that as much shit that it gets here he always maintains a certain level of decorum that connotes a measure of dignity that is unappreciated if not entirely lost of this generation. You never hear him resort to crude profanity that proliferates on this board, which I myself am guilty of. I get frustrated and angry with him at times and there was a time when I would insult him with the crudest of invectives when it suddenly dawned on me that he never responded in kind. The most you could get out of him was maybe "flotsam" and some other mild insults but never abject profanity. This caused me some degree of shame (which is another trait increasingly rare in what seems now to be an utterly shameless culture) and I made a personal vow that no matter how much he incites me I will always show him the degree of respect and courtesy that he has always shown me and no longer resort to crude and profane insults.

But as of now this only applies to him. Everyone else is fair game. 
 

Thanks for the props , now if I could always have as low bodyfat as you have that would be something
Yes, Vince does not resort to ``big`` insults or profanity about your mom or so , and I like that somehow.But when he tells us that his capacity to hypertrophy has  not diminished and here I am training like a ``maniac``  year after year and seeing that some muscle and strength disappear anyway , I think, no wonder people look at him as a fool and senile old man.............
And the phrase under my avatar is not really true it`s just a way of ``pump myself up`` and stay positive

[pellius]

Thanks for the props , now if I could always have as low bodyfat as you have that would be something
Yes, Vince does not resort to ``big`` insults or profanity about your mom or so , and I like that somehow.But when he tells us that his capacity to hypertrophy has  not diminished and here I am training like a ``maniac``  year after year and seeing that some muscle and strength disappear anyway , I think, no wonder people look at him as a fool and senile old man.............
And the phrase under my avatar is not really true it`s just a way of ``pump myself up`` and stay positive

Nobody gets out this alive but guys like us we go out fighting to the bitter end.

[dr.chimps]

Ignor my words at your peril. Not many on this sordid forum post anything of value. Most of the knuckleheads here wouldn't know good advice from bad. Sad but true and this thread is proof of the dumbbells in this community.

LOL. What are you, channeling Gandalf!?

[dj181]

You make a great point flintstones. Training til failure IS the stimulus which sets the growth mechanism into action. Also, you are correct when you say that such a style of training can lead quickly to overtraining. Mentzer had an answer to this dilemma when he made the point that once must decrease volume and frequency in order to avoid overtraining and to keep growing in size and strength. Type "The Boise Experiment" into the google search engine, to see a prime example of Mentzer's Heavy Duty training style in action. P.S. Two fellas went through this 60 day experiment, and they even posted video clips of their experiment on youtube.

[wes]

Fuck Mentzer!

[Vince B]

Dr Chimps fails to see my sense of humour.

Please, good people, allow that I have decades of experimenting with training. One advantage I had over many others is that back in the 70s I taught high school PE then ran my gym until 9pm. I finished up the books then had a workout. I had to be efficient and effective because I sure didn't feel like training hard and long in those days. Half hour workouts is all I did.

In the past couple of decades I haven't trained that much and that allowed me to discover something important about bodybuilding. You didn't have to train all bodyparts every week and that allowed me to specialize on what I liked doing. Finding out about DOMS was an eyeopener because we all believed Mentzer and Jones that we grew by resting. They were convinced that longer breaks between sessions were necessary. A whole generation of bodybuilders incorporated sufficient rest. The problem ignored by Mentzer is the Repeated Bout Effect. In the old days we did upper body MWF and Legs T Th Sat. No wonder gains came slowly or not at all. All of these factors combined to help me develop a new approach to bodybuilding. It works. There is no doubt whatsoever. Who will try it? Only the open-minded, intelligent young bodybuilders. Older guys are like old dogs and it is a waste of time talking to them. The trouble is the novices read what Ronnie and Jay do and base their training around that. That is fair enough but once they do that they stop looking for better ways to train.

The nutrition story is easy to explain. Anyone who has force fed himself for over 20 years will ingest plenty of protein through meat, chicken, eggs, and milk products. There is no need to take protein supplements. I accept that some research indicates various supplements can assist growth. Well, any student of bodybuilding will have to read the literature and adjust his intake accordingly. I don't claim to be an expert in nutrition. I can state I have not taken protein supplements. I tried some Hoffman stuff 50 years ago but it wouldn't mix with milk and tasted horrible. Most young fellows need a calorie supplement. Weider had a great one in the old days but withdrew it for some obscure reason. It tasted great and had zillions of calories. It wasn't Crash Weight Gain #7 but another product. Protein 101 or something like that.

Pellius thinks too much about this stuff.

[dj181]

I'm curious Vince, when you say "You don't have to train all body parts every week" I assume that means that one's muscles don't start decompensating (losing size and strength) after a week or so of not training them right? So in your opinion or experience, when does the decompensation process start to occur? In my experience it starts to occur after roughly 3 weeks of not training a bodypart.

[Vince B]

If you stimulate hypertrophy in your arms then your whole upper body will get some benefit and you won't lose anything. The muscle system is interconnected via the shoulder in the upper body.

You worry too much. You honestly worry about losing size when you should be willing to pay any price to make your muscles grow rapidly. Why not try this method on your arms for a month. What have you got to lose? All the rationalizing is preparing you for failure before you start. Clear out all your ideas and don't think too much. Clever people and grocers, they weigh everything! I have vast experience. Use that and forget about thinking too much. By the way, what level are you at re bodybuilding?

[dj181]

I just got back into training regularly and consistantly about 3 or 4 months ago. At the moment I'm 165 @ 13-14% and my all time best condition was 167 @ sub-8. The problem I have with your theroy is that I firmly believe that it will lead to gross and acute overtraining. But who knows, maybe I should give it a run? I've gotta get to work now, but I'll give some thought to your proposal.

[dr.chimps]

Dr Chimps fails to see my sense of humour.

I do. It's a shortcoming I share with the rest of Getbig.

[Vince B]

Lee Priest and I both believe that overtraining is a myth or an excuse at best. Seems to me you have trouble gaining weight and if this is true then gains will be virtually impossible for you no matter what training program you do. My program stimulates growth and avoids doing too much in the body. It is better than Heavy Duty. If HD was correct then more bodybuilders would be using it. That isn't what we find so do we suggest they are foolish or that HD doesn't either work or suit them? I tend to believe the latter. No matter what you want to say about the pros they all got huge compared to most of us. They are doing more things right than the rest of us and that is true even if you subtract the drugs. Of course, many lose size when they go off the drugs because they stop training because they don't see the point. Had they persisted with training they might retain much of their size. I don't train my calves and they are still quite large. I go for bushwalks carrying a heavy backpack and a few cameras and that is training of a kind. My calves are over 17 1/2 and I haven't been walking much lately. When I do they increase another 1/2 inch. I can tell you I trained for years to get them over 16 1/2.

You have to admit you don't know what will happen to your body. Even if you don't try my method you should cut down to doing three exercises twice a week. Squats or leg presses, Bench or chest machine, and pulldowns to the top of the chest with a close grip. Do 3 max sets on each and you should grow. Not as much as doing 5 max sets. Maybe you could pick one bodypart each workout and do 5 max sets and 3 for the other parts. Warm up sets don't count. This is about as close to doing personal training as I am going to get here. It is free but it isn't worthless information. You have to weigh more each workout. Not much but enough to register on a scale that you are heavier. Weigh yourself at the same time before each workout. Good luck.

[Vince B]

Naturally, I am innocent of all charges that I am arrogant and condescending. 

[Hulkotron]

Citing bodybuilders to back up your points is pretty stupid since they're all on outrageous amounts of hormones.

I'm not aware of many scientific studies that have looked at protein intake and muscle growth but I don't know that area well.  There is certainly tons of anecdotal correlational evidence, i.e.:

- everyone that any one of us have ever known who has gotten big and strong has probably eaten a lot of protein (Group A)

- everyone who is soft and weak-looking eats a bunch of shitty carbs (Group B)

The issue is that Group A works out hard and Group B doesn't.  Has anyone every actually tried a low protein diet while doing bodybuilding workouts?  What were your results like?  I'm thinking like 50-100 grams a day, with a good chunk of it right after your workout, rather than the 150+ that most of us are probably consuming.

[Vince B]

I don't need blue stars to know I am an expert in hypertrophy. I help people all the time at my gym. They are grateful unlike the know-it-alls on Getbig. If you want to refute me try the method and if it doesn't work then that is what will bother me. It will take a true world authority to correct me and not some internet quick draw. Good criticism benefits everyone. Nasty, personal stuff has no place in this discourse.

[no one]

KEEP MY NAME OUT YOUR MOUTH BITCH

lol calm down, gloria.