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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: The Coach on July 02, 2007, 03:58:08 PM
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It's about time.........
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,287780,00.html
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::)
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He didn't do anything...good for Bush. Besides there are plnety of other problems to hammer him on anyway.
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define dictatorship :)
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Good.
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bush is the overlord
fixed..
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bush is the decider.
Well, he is the President!
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Well, he is the President!
which funny enough use to actually mean, "NOT KING" :-\
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Another example of how the "law of the land" doesn't apply to those in power.
A jury convicted and sentenced libby, therefore he did do something wrong according to the "law of the land".
The degree of crimes may seem miniscule to some, but the shame of it is that the "verdict of the people" was overturned.
Sandra
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Another example of how the "law of the land" doesn't apply to those in power.
A jury convicted and sentenced libby, therefore he did do something wrong according to the "law of the land".
The degree of crimes may seem miniscule to some, but the shame of it is that the "verdict of the people" was overturned.
Sandra
Really? Considering he got sentenced for 30 months on something there was no proof of and Sandy Burgler get a slap on the wrist for getting caught red handed with classified documents down his underware and socks........yes "Sandra".....the "law of the land"!!
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Really? Considering he got sentenced for 30 months on something there was no proof of and Sandy Burgler get a slap on the wrist for getting caught red handed with classified documents down his underware and socks........yes "Sandra".....the "law of the land"!!
Agreed.
I can't believe that got swept under the rug.
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Another example of how the "law of the land" doesn't apply to those in power.
A jury convicted and sentenced libby, therefore he did do something wrong according to the "law of the land".
The degree of crimes may seem miniscule to some, but the shame of it is that the "verdict of the people" was overturned.
Sandra
Not necessarily. There are hundreds of sentences commuted and pardons issued every year by governors and the prez. Not uncommon at all.
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Not necessarily. There are hundreds of sentences commuted and pardons issued every year by governors and the prez. Not uncommon at all.
No kidding? How many included a chief of staff to the current vice president and assistant of the said president who pardoned him?
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November 23, 1994
NAME DISTRICT SENTENCED OFFENSE
David Phillip Aronsohn D. Minn. 1961 Failure to pay special occupational tax on wagering, 26 U.S.C. § 7203
Wanda Kaye Bain-Prentice D. Ariz. 1982 Mail fraud, 18 U.S.C. § 1341
Antonio Barucco U. S. Army general court-martial 1945 Desertion in violation of the 58th Article of War
Kristine Margo Beck D. Idaho 1981 Bank embezzlement, 18 U.S.C. § 656
David Christopher Billmaier D. New Mex. 1980 Possession with intent to distribute amphetamines, 21 U.S.C. § 841(a)(1)
Terry Lee Brown E. D. Ky. 1962 Interstate transportation of a stolen motor vehicle, 18 U.S.C. § 2312
Joe Carl Bruton N. D. Tex. 1979 Conspiracy to commit mail fraud, 18 U.S.C. § 371
Nolan Lynn DeMarce W. D. Wis. 1983 Making false statements to obtain bank loans, 18 U.S.C. § 1014
Jimmy C. Dick N. D. Calif. 1976 Conspiracy to manufacture counterfeit Federal Reserve Notes, 18 U.S.C. § 371
Edward Eugene Dishman W. D. Okla. 1983 Conspiracy to defraud the United States and Oklahoma counties, 18 U.S.C. § 371
Brenda Kay Engle S. D. Ind. 1983 Conspiracy to commit theft from interstate shipment, 18 U.S.C. § 371
Mary Theresa Fajer D. Oregon 1980 Conspiracy to commit bank embezzlement, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2 and 371
Albert James Forte D. Dist. Col. 1973 Making and subscribing false and fraudulent income tax return, 26 U.S.C. § 7206(1)
Fendley Lee Frazier S. D. Ala. 1965 Interstate transportation of a stolen motor vehicle, 18 U.S.C. § 2312
Robert Linward Freeland, Jr. N. D. Ind. 1983 Forcible rescue of seized property, 26 U.S.C. § 7212(b)
Ralph Leon Furst S. D. Calif. 1966 Embezzlement of United States mail (U.S. Code section not cited)
Barbara Ann Gericke W. D. Wis. 1984 Conspiracy to introduce contraband into federal prison, 18 U.S.C. §§ 371 and 1791
Billy Joe Gilmore N. D. Tex. 1982 Mail fraud and aiding and abetting, 18 U.S.C. §§ 1341 and 2
Loreto Joseph Iafrate N. D. W. Va. 1976 Failure to record receipt of firearms, 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(m) and 924(a)
Carl Bruce Jones W. D. Mo. 1983 Distribution of marijuana and use of telephone to facilitate marijuana distribution, 18 U.S.C. § 2 and 21 U.S.C. §§ 841(a)(1) and 843(b)
Candace Deon Leverenz N. D. Calif. 1972 Unlawful distribution of LSD, 21 U.S.C. §§ 841(a)(1) and (b)(1)(B)
George William Lindgren S. D. N. Y. 1975 Bank embezzlement, 18 U.S.C. § 656
Brian George Meierkord C. D. Ill. 1983 Making false statement to bank, 18 U.S.C. § 1014
Jackie Lee Miller N. D. Okla. 1983 Conspiracy to defraud the United States, 18 U.S.C. § 371
Joseph Patrick Naulty E. D. Pa. 1980 Carrying away goods moving as part of foreign shipment, 18 U.S.C. § 659
Theodore Roosevelt Noel N. D. Ala. 1972 Selling whiskey in unstamped containers and making false statement in the acquisition of firearms from licensed dealer, 26 U.S.C. § 5604(a)(1) and 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(a)(6) and 924(a)
Mary Louise Oaks M. D. La. 1979 Conspiracy to defraud the government with respect to claims, 18 U.S.C. § 286
Robert Paul Padelsky D. Utah 1980 Misapplication of bank funds, 18 U.S.C. § 656
Elizabeth Amy Peterson D. Nev. 1985 Conspiracy to make false statements to bank, 18 U.S.C. § 371
Susan Lauranne Prather W. D. Ark. 1975 Causing marijuana to be transported through the mail, 21 U.S.C. § 843(b)
Gary Lynn Quammen W. D. Wis. 1976 Misapplication of bank funds, 18 U.S.C. § 656
Robert Ronal Raymond D. Conn. 1972 Conspiracy to manufacture, receive, possess, and sell firearms silencers, 18 U.S.C. § 371
Elizabeth Hogg Rushing N. D. Ga. 1978 Misapplication of bank funds, 18 U.S.C. § 656
Marc Alan Schaffer S. D. N. Y. 1968 Submission of false statements to Selective Service System Local Board, 50 U.S.C. Appendix § 462(a)
Roy Aaron Smith E. D. Tex. 1982 Misprision of a felony, 18 U.S.C. § 4
Diane Dorothea Smunk D. So. Dak. 1984 Embezzlement by government employee, 18 U.S.C. § 641
Thomas Peter Stathakis D. So. Car. 1976 Selling and delivering firearms to out-of-state resident and falsifying firearms records, 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(b)(3), 922(m), and 924(a)
Kathleen Vacanti C. D. Calif. 1979 Conspiracy to defraud the United States by obtaining payment of false claims, presenting false claims to the United States, forging a writing, and aiding and abetting, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2, 286, 287, and 495
Pupi White W. D. Mo. 1985 Making false statement on United States passport application, 18 U.S.C. § 911
Charles Coleman Wicker E. D. Mo. 1975 Conspiracy to conduct illegal gambling business, 18 U.S.C. § 371
Roderick Douglas Woods S. D. Miss. 1982 Misappropriation of bank funds and aiding and abetting, 18 U.S.C. §§ 656 and 2
April 17, 1995
NAME DISTRICT SENTENCED OFFENSE
Bradley Vaughn Barisic N. D. Calif. 1980 Making false statement to National Labor Relations Board, 18 U.S.C. § 1001
Herschel L. Brantley U. S. Air Force general court-martial 1951 Larceny in violation of 93rd Article of War
Linda Bailey Byars D. So. Car. 1975 Bank embezzlement, 18 U.S.C. § 656
Patricia Ann Chapin W. D. Mo. 1986 Falsifying prescription for controlled substance, 21 U.S.C. § 843(a)(4)(A) and 18 U.S.C. § 2
Ronald Jacobs E. D. Pa. 1967 Theft from interstate shipment, 18 U.S.C. § 659
Margaret Mary Marks N. D. Ohio 1984 Willful misapplication of bank funds, 18 U.S.C. § 657
John Richard Martin S. D. Calif. 1956 Embezzlement of funds from savings and loan association, 18 U.S.C. § 657
Earl Thomas McKinney 1. U. S. Air Force summary court-martial 1. 1951 1. Absent without leave
2. U. S. Air Force general court-martial 2. 1959 2. Larceny by check, writing check with insufficient funds, and false claims, in violation of U.C.M.J. Articles 121, 132, and 134
Shirley Jean Odoms S. D. Tex. 1978 Filing false claim for tax refund, 18 U.S.C. § 287
Jack Pakis W. D. Ark. 1972 Operation of illegal gambling business, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2 and 1955
Gordon Roberts, Jr. M. D. La. 1977 Interstate transportation of forged and falsely made securities, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2 and 2314
Carl Edward Terhune, Jr. N. D. Okla. 1985 Issuing United States Postal Service money orders while postal employee with intent to defraud Postal Service, 18 U.S.C. § 500
December 23, 1997
NAME DISTRICT SENTENCED OFFENSE
Irving Frank Avery D. Colo. 1984 Possession of counterfeit plates, 18 U.S.C. §§ 474 and 2
Billy K. Berry E. D. Ark. 1986 Medicaid and mail fraud, 42 U.S.C. § 1396h(a)(1)(i) and 18 U.S.C. § 1341
Clio Louise Carson D. Wyo. 1979 Transmission of wagering information, 18 U.S.C. § 1084
Giuseppe Casadei-Severei D. Puerto Rico 1987 Obstruction of justice, 18 U.S.C. § 1503
Glen Edison Chapman 1. W. D. No.Car.
1. 1955
1. Removing, possessing, and concealing non-tax-paid whiskey, 26 U.S.C. §§ 5632 and 7206
2. W. D. No. Car. 2. 1957 2. Removing, possessing, and concealing non-tax-paid whiskey, 26 U.S.C. §§ 5632 and 5008(b)(1)
Ralph Wallace Crawford C. D. Calif. 1985 Mail fraud, 18 U.S.C. § 1341
Aaron Golden W. D. Tex. 1986 Failure to file a currency transaction report, 31 U.S.C. §§ 5313 and 5322(a)
Monroe Lee King S. D. Tex. 1973 Making plates for counterfeiting Federal Reserve Notes, 18 U.S.C. § 474
Ralph Lee Limbaugh N. D. Ala. 1974 Theft from interstate shipment, 18 U.S.C. § 659
George Edward Maynes, Jr. D. Canal Zone 1975 Distribution of cocaine, 21 U.S.C. § 841(a)(1)
Charley Morgan N.D. Okla. 1964 Unlawful possession of still and manufacture of mash, 26 U.S.C. §§ 5179(a), 5601(a)(1), and 5601(a)(7)
Linzie Murle Morse W. D. La. 1973 Interstate transportation of stolen motor vehicle and selling stolen motor vehicle, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2312 and 2313
Charles Patrick Murrin C. D. Calif. 1988 Bank robbery, 18 U.S.C. § 2113(a)
Moises Jaurequi Ramos D. New Mexico 1983 Misprision of a felony, 18 U.S.C. § 4
William Ray Richardson W. D. Mo. 1983 Interstate transportation of stolen property, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2 and 2314
Raymond Phillip Weaver U. S. Navy summary court-martial 1947 Theft of four pounds of butter
Bill Wayne West E. D. Miss. 1984 Dealing in firearms without license, 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(a)(1) and 924(a)
Anita Glenn Whitlock D. Dist. Col. 1978 Bank embezzlement, 18 U.S.C. § 656
Edward Kenneth Williams, Jr. S. D. Iowa 1979 Receiving and selling stolen motor vehicles and aiding and abetting the same, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2 and 2313
Larry Edward Winfield W. D. Ark. 1987 Mail fraud, 18 U.S.C. § 1341
Louis Anthony Winters 1. U.S. Navy general
court-martial 1. 1957
1. Unauthorized absence from duty
2.D. So. Dak. 2. 1969 2. Assault with dangerous weapon, 18 U.S.C. § 1153
December 24, 1998
NAME DISTRICT SENTENCED OFFENSE
Haig Ardash Arakelian
(aka Haig Arthur Arakelian)
S. D. Calif. 1975 Possession of marijuana, 21 U.S.C. § 844
Estel Edmond Ashworth N. D. Tex. 1974 Theft of mail by Postal employee, 18 U.S.C. § 1709
Vincent Anthony Burgio C. D. Calif. 1972 Possession of counterfeit government obligations, 18 U.S.C. § 472
Thomas Earl Burton E. D. Va. 1982 Attempted possession with intent to distribute cocaine, 21 U.S.C. §§ 841(a)(1) and 846
Jesse Cuevas D. Neb. 1984 Unauthorized possession of food stamps, 7 U.S.C. § 2024(b)
Harry Erla Fox U.S. Army summary and special courts- martial 1961 Absence without leave, Article 86, U.C.M.J.
James William Gardner D. Wyo. 1983 Conspiracy to distribute cocaine, 21 U.S.C. §§ 846 and 841(a)(1)
Alejandro Cruz Guedea U.S. Army general court-martial 1949 Larceny of government property
Sebraien Michael Haygood E. D. N. Y. 1982 Importation of cocaine, 21 U.S.C. §§ 952(a) and 960(a)(1)
Warren Curtis Hultgren, Jr. W. D. Tex. 1982 Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute cocaine, 21 U.S.C. §§ 846 and 841(a)(1)
Sharon Sue Johnson E. D. Ark. 1986 Bank embezzlement, 18 U.S.C. § 656
Ronald Ray Kelly U.S. Marine Corps special court-martial 1969 Unauthorized absences, escape from lawful custody, and breaking restriction
Francis Dale Knippling D. So. Dak. 1985 Conversion of mortgaged property, 18 U.S.C. § 658
Michael Ray Krukar D. Alaska 1988 Unlawful distribution of marijuana, 21 U.S.C. § 841(a)(1)
Michael Francis Larkin D. Mass. 1984 False statements to HUD, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2 and 1001
Leslie Jan McCall W. D. Okla. 1988 Use of telephone to facilitate cocaine distribution, 21 U.S.C. § 843(b)
Bobby Joe Miller E. D. Tex. 1982 Misprision of a felony, 18 U.S.C. § 4
William Edward Payne D. Ore. 1965 Willful attempt to evade excise tax on wagers, 26 U.S.C. § 7201
Robert Earl Radke C. D. Calif. 1981 Willful attempt to evade income taxes, 26 U.S.C. § 7201
David Walter Ratliff N. D. Okla. 1981 Making false statement to the government, 18 U.S.C. § 1001
Billy Wayne Reynolds E. D. Tex. 1981 Mail fraud, 18 U.S.C. § 1341
Benito Maldonado Sanchez, Jr. W. D. Tex. 1960 Possession of marijuana without payment of transfer tax, 26 U.S.C. § 4744(1)
Vicki Lynn Seals
(fka Vicki Lynn Miller)
W. D. Tex. 1984 Making a false statement to a federally insured bank while an employee of that bank, 18 U.S.C.§ 1005
Lewis Craig Seymour W. D. Okla. 1979 Distribution of Phencyclidine (PCP), 21 U.S.C. § 841(a)(1)
Irving A. Smith D. Md. 1957 Conspiracy to engage in price-fixing, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1 and 2 (Sherman Act)
Darrin Paul Sobin E. D. Calif. 1987 Conspiracy to manufacture marijuana, 21 U.S.C. § 841(a)(1)
Monty Mac Stewart W. D. Okla. 1983 Conspiracy to defraud U.S. and counties within Oklahoma, mail fraud, and aiding and abetting filing a false income tax return, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2, 371, and 1341, and 26 U.S.C. § 7206(1)
Kevin Lester Teker W. D. Wash. 1989 Maliciously damaging property used in an activity affecting interstate commerce by means of an explosive, 18 U.S.C. § 844(i)
John Timothy Thompson W. D. Okla. 1986 Use of the telephone to facilitate cocaine distribution, 21 U.S.C. § 843(b)
Paul Loy Tobin S. D. Ala. 1968 Interstate transportation of stolen motor vehicle, 18 U.S.C. § 2312
Gerald William Wachter E. D. Pa. 1974 Conspiracy to cause stolen goods to be transported in interstate commerce, 18 U.S.C. § 371
Marian Lane Wolf N. D. Tex. 1988 Misprision of a felony, 18 U.S.C. § 4
Samuel Harrell Woodard 1. U.S. Air Force summary court-martial 1. 1952 1. Absent without leave
2. S. D. Ga. 2. 1955 2. Theft from an interstate shipment, 18 U.S.C. § 659
February 19, 1999
NAME DISTRICT SENTENCED OFFENSE
Henry Ossian Flipper U.S. Army general court-martial 1891 Conduct unbecoming an officer
December 23, 1999
NAME DISTRICT SENTENCED OFFENSE
Meredith Marcus Appleton, II W. D. Okla. 1990 Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute cocaine and to distribute cocaine, 21 U.S.C. § 846
Steven Laurence Barnett E. D. Calif. 1987 Misapplication of bank funds and aiding and abetting the same, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2 and 657
Russell Carl Clifton N. D. Calif. 1977 Transmission of a false distress signal, 47 U.S.C. § 325 (misdemeanor)
Albert McMullen Cox S. D. Ga. 1987 Bribery of a public official, 18 U.S.C. § 201(b)
Bernard Earl Crandall C. D. Ill. 1985 Theft from interstate shipment, 18 U.S.C. § 659
Eugene Harold Del Carlo N. D. Calif. 1979 Conspiracy and blackmail, 18 U.S.C. §§ 371 and 873 (misdemeanors)
Kenneth Lee Deusterman D. Minn. 1991 False statement to HUD, 18 U.S.C. § 1012
ALL BILL CLINTON Pardons..and thats not even half
U GET THE POINT
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No kidding? How many included a chief of staff to the current vice president and assistant of the said president who pardoned him?
I don't know. What's your point?
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You don't want to start comparing pardons with Clinton. His record of questionable pardons is long and sickening. In a shameful pardons contest he wins each and every time. And you can lump Billary's dirtbag brother into that mess too.
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I don't know. What's your point?
ok..i'll put it this way...how many of those people he pardoned held such a position in his administration ala Scooter?
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November 23, 1994
NAME DISTRICT SENTENCED OFFENSE
David Phillip Aronsohn D. Minn. 1961 Failure to pay special occupational tax on wagering, 26 U.S.C. § 7203
Wanda Kaye Bain-Prentice D. Ariz. 1982 Mail fraud, 18 U.S.C. § 1341
Antonio Barucco U. S. Army general court-martial 1945 Desertion in violation of the 58th Article of War
Kristine Margo Beck D. Idaho 1981 Bank embezzlement, 18 U.S.C. § 656
David Christopher Billmaier D. New Mex. 1980 Possession with intent to distribute amphetamines, 21 U.S.C. § 841(a)(1)
Terry Lee Brown E. D. Ky. 1962 Interstate transportation of a stolen motor vehicle, 18 U.S.C. § 2312
Joe Carl Bruton N. D. Tex. 1979 Conspiracy to commit mail fraud, 18 U.S.C. § 371
Nolan Lynn DeMarce W. D. Wis. 1983 Making false statements to obtain bank loans, 18 U.S.C. § 1014
Jimmy C. Dick N. D. Calif. 1976 Conspiracy to manufacture counterfeit Federal Reserve Notes, 18 U.S.C. § 371
Edward Eugene Dishman W. D. Okla. 1983 Conspiracy to defraud the United States and Oklahoma counties, 18 U.S.C. § 371
Brenda Kay Engle S. D. Ind. 1983 Conspiracy to commit theft from interstate shipment, 18 U.S.C. § 371
Mary Theresa Fajer D. Oregon 1980 Conspiracy to commit bank embezzlement, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2 and 371
Albert James Forte D. Dist. Col. 1973 Making and subscribing false and fraudulent income tax return, 26 U.S.C. § 7206(1)
Fendley Lee Frazier S. D. Ala. 1965 Interstate transportation of a stolen motor vehicle, 18 U.S.C. § 2312
Robert Linward Freeland, Jr. N. D. Ind. 1983 Forcible rescue of seized property, 26 U.S.C. § 7212(b)
Ralph Leon Furst S. D. Calif. 1966 Embezzlement of United States mail (U.S. Code section not cited)
Barbara Ann Gericke W. D. Wis. 1984 Conspiracy to introduce contraband into federal prison, 18 U.S.C. §§ 371 and 1791
Billy Joe Gilmore N. D. Tex. 1982 Mail fraud and aiding and abetting, 18 U.S.C. §§ 1341 and 2
Loreto Joseph Iafrate N. D. W. Va. 1976 Failure to record receipt of firearms, 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(m) and 924(a)
Carl Bruce Jones W. D. Mo. 1983 Distribution of marijuana and use of telephone to facilitate marijuana distribution, 18 U.S.C. § 2 and 21 U.S.C. §§ 841(a)(1) and 843(b)
Candace Deon Leverenz N. D. Calif. 1972 Unlawful distribution of LSD, 21 U.S.C. §§ 841(a)(1) and (b)(1)(B)
George William Lindgren S. D. N. Y. 1975 Bank embezzlement, 18 U.S.C. § 656
Brian George Meierkord C. D. Ill. 1983 Making false statement to bank, 18 U.S.C. § 1014
Jackie Lee Miller N. D. Okla. 1983 Conspiracy to defraud the United States, 18 U.S.C. § 371
Joseph Patrick Naulty E. D. Pa. 1980 Carrying away goods moving as part of foreign shipment, 18 U.S.C. § 659
Theodore Roosevelt Noel N. D. Ala. 1972 Selling whiskey in unstamped containers and making false statement in the acquisition of firearms from licensed dealer, 26 U.S.C. § 5604(a)(1) and 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(a)(6) and 924(a)
Mary Louise Oaks M. D. La. 1979 Conspiracy to defraud the government with respect to claims, 18 U.S.C. § 286
Robert Paul Padelsky D. Utah 1980 Misapplication of bank funds, 18 U.S.C. § 656
Elizabeth Amy Peterson D. Nev. 1985 Conspiracy to make false statements to bank, 18 U.S.C. § 371
Susan Lauranne Prather W. D. Ark. 1975 Causing marijuana to be transported through the mail, 21 U.S.C. § 843(b)
Gary Lynn Quammen W. D. Wis. 1976 Misapplication of bank funds, 18 U.S.C. § 656
Robert Ronal Raymond D. Conn. 1972 Conspiracy to manufacture, receive, possess, and sell firearms silencers, 18 U.S.C. § 371
Elizabeth Hogg Rushing N. D. Ga. 1978 Misapplication of bank funds, 18 U.S.C. § 656
Marc Alan Schaffer S. D. N. Y. 1968 Submission of false statements to Selective Service System Local Board, 50 U.S.C. Appendix § 462(a)
Roy Aaron Smith E. D. Tex. 1982 Misprision of a felony, 18 U.S.C. § 4
Diane Dorothea Smunk D. So. Dak. 1984 Embezzlement by government employee, 18 U.S.C. § 641
Thomas Peter Stathakis D. So. Car. 1976 Selling and delivering firearms to out-of-state resident and falsifying firearms records, 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(b)(3), 922(m), and 924(a)
Kathleen Vacanti C. D. Calif. 1979 Conspiracy to defraud the United States by obtaining payment of false claims, presenting false claims to the United States, forging a writing, and aiding and abetting, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2, 286, 287, and 495
Pupi White W. D. Mo. 1985 Making false statement on United States passport application, 18 U.S.C. § 911
Charles Coleman Wicker E. D. Mo. 1975 Conspiracy to conduct illegal gambling business, 18 U.S.C. § 371
Roderick Douglas Woods S. D. Miss. 1982 Misappropriation of bank funds and aiding and abetting, 18 U.S.C. §§ 656 and 2
April 17, 1995
NAME DISTRICT SENTENCED OFFENSE
Bradley Vaughn Barisic N. D. Calif. 1980 Making false statement to National Labor Relations Board, 18 U.S.C. § 1001
Herschel L. Brantley U. S. Air Force general court-martial 1951 Larceny in violation of 93rd Article of War
Linda Bailey Byars D. So. Car. 1975 Bank embezzlement, 18 U.S.C. § 656
Patricia Ann Chapin W. D. Mo. 1986 Falsifying prescription for controlled substance, 21 U.S.C. § 843(a)(4)(A) and 18 U.S.C. § 2
Ronald Jacobs E. D. Pa. 1967 Theft from interstate shipment, 18 U.S.C. § 659
Margaret Mary Marks N. D. Ohio 1984 Willful misapplication of bank funds, 18 U.S.C. § 657
John Richard Martin S. D. Calif. 1956 Embezzlement of funds from savings and loan association, 18 U.S.C. § 657
Earl Thomas McKinney 1. U. S. Air Force summary court-martial 1. 1951 1. Absent without leave
2. U. S. Air Force general court-martial 2. 1959 2. Larceny by check, writing check with insufficient funds, and false claims, in violation of U.C.M.J. Articles 121, 132, and 134
Shirley Jean Odoms S. D. Tex. 1978 Filing false claim for tax refund, 18 U.S.C. § 287
Jack Pakis W. D. Ark. 1972 Operation of illegal gambling business, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2 and 1955
Gordon Roberts, Jr. M. D. La. 1977 Interstate transportation of forged and falsely made securities, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2 and 2314
Carl Edward Terhune, Jr. N. D. Okla. 1985 Issuing United States Postal Service money orders while postal employee with intent to defraud Postal Service, 18 U.S.C. § 500
December 23, 1997
NAME DISTRICT SENTENCED OFFENSE
Irving Frank Avery D. Colo. 1984 Possession of counterfeit plates, 18 U.S.C. §§ 474 and 2
Billy K. Berry E. D. Ark. 1986 Medicaid and mail fraud, 42 U.S.C. § 1396h(a)(1)(i) and 18 U.S.C. § 1341
Clio Louise Carson D. Wyo. 1979 Transmission of wagering information, 18 U.S.C. § 1084
Giuseppe Casadei-Severei D. Puerto Rico 1987 Obstruction of justice, 18 U.S.C. § 1503
Glen Edison Chapman 1. W. D. No.Car.
1. 1955
1. Removing, possessing, and concealing non-tax-paid whiskey, 26 U.S.C. §§ 5632 and 7206
2. W. D. No. Car. 2. 1957 2. Removing, possessing, and concealing non-tax-paid whiskey, 26 U.S.C. §§ 5632 and 5008(b)(1)
Ralph Wallace Crawford C. D. Calif. 1985 Mail fraud, 18 U.S.C. § 1341
Aaron Golden W. D. Tex. 1986 Failure to file a currency transaction report, 31 U.S.C. §§ 5313 and 5322(a)
Monroe Lee King S. D. Tex. 1973 Making plates for counterfeiting Federal Reserve Notes, 18 U.S.C. § 474
Ralph Lee Limbaugh N. D. Ala. 1974 Theft from interstate shipment, 18 U.S.C. § 659
George Edward Maynes, Jr. D. Canal Zone 1975 Distribution of cocaine, 21 U.S.C. § 841(a)(1)
Charley Morgan N.D. Okla. 1964 Unlawful possession of still and manufacture of mash, 26 U.S.C. §§ 5179(a), 5601(a)(1), and 5601(a)(7)
Linzie Murle Morse W. D. La. 1973 Interstate transportation of stolen motor vehicle and selling stolen motor vehicle, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2312 and 2313
Charles Patrick Murrin C. D. Calif. 1988 Bank robbery, 18 U.S.C. § 2113(a)
Moises Jaurequi Ramos D. New Mexico 1983 Misprision of a felony, 18 U.S.C. § 4
William Ray Richardson W. D. Mo. 1983 Interstate transportation of stolen property, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2 and 2314
Raymond Phillip Weaver U. S. Navy summary court-martial 1947 Theft of four pounds of butter
Bill Wayne West E. D. Miss. 1984 Dealing in firearms without license, 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(a)(1) and 924(a)
Anita Glenn Whitlock D. Dist. Col. 1978 Bank embezzlement, 18 U.S.C. § 656
Edward Kenneth Williams, Jr. S. D. Iowa 1979 Receiving and selling stolen motor vehicles and aiding and abetting the same, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2 and 2313
Larry Edward Winfield W. D. Ark. 1987 Mail fraud, 18 U.S.C. § 1341
Louis Anthony Winters 1. U.S. Navy general
court-martial 1. 1957
1. Unauthorized absence from duty
2.D. So. Dak. 2. 1969 2. Assault with dangerous weapon, 18 U.S.C. § 1153
December 24, 1998
NAME DISTRICT SENTENCED OFFENSE
Haig Ardash Arakelian
(aka Haig Arthur Arakelian)
S. D. Calif. 1975 Possession of marijuana, 21 U.S.C. § 844
Estel Edmond Ashworth N. D. Tex. 1974 Theft of mail by Postal employee, 18 U.S.C. § 1709
Vincent Anthony Burgio C. D. Calif. 1972 Possession of counterfeit government obligations, 18 U.S.C. § 472
Thomas Earl Burton E. D. Va. 1982 Attempted possession with intent to distribute cocaine, 21 U.S.C. §§ 841(a)(1) and 846
Jesse Cuevas D. Neb. 1984 Unauthorized possession of food stamps, 7 U.S.C. § 2024(b)
Harry Erla Fox U.S. Army summary and special courts- martial 1961 Absence without leave, Article 86, U.C.M.J.
James William Gardner D. Wyo. 1983 Conspiracy to distribute cocaine, 21 U.S.C. §§ 846 and 841(a)(1)
Alejandro Cruz Guedea U.S. Army general court-martial 1949 Larceny of government property
Sebraien Michael Haygood E. D. N. Y. 1982 Importation of cocaine, 21 U.S.C. §§ 952(a) and 960(a)(1)
Warren Curtis Hultgren, Jr. W. D. Tex. 1982 Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute cocaine, 21 U.S.C. §§ 846 and 841(a)(1)
Sharon Sue Johnson E. D. Ark. 1986 Bank embezzlement, 18 U.S.C. § 656
Ronald Ray Kelly U.S. Marine Corps special court-martial 1969 Unauthorized absences, escape from lawful custody, and breaking restriction
Francis Dale Knippling D. So. Dak. 1985 Conversion of mortgaged property, 18 U.S.C. § 658
Michael Ray Krukar D. Alaska 1988 Unlawful distribution of marijuana, 21 U.S.C. § 841(a)(1)
Michael Francis Larkin D. Mass. 1984 False statements to HUD, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2 and 1001
Leslie Jan McCall W. D. Okla. 1988 Use of telephone to facilitate cocaine distribution, 21 U.S.C. § 843(b)
Bobby Joe Miller E. D. Tex. 1982 Misprision of a felony, 18 U.S.C. § 4
William Edward Payne D. Ore. 1965 Willful attempt to evade excise tax on wagers, 26 U.S.C. § 7201
Robert Earl Radke C. D. Calif. 1981 Willful attempt to evade income taxes, 26 U.S.C. § 7201
David Walter Ratliff N. D. Okla. 1981 Making false statement to the government, 18 U.S.C. § 1001
Billy Wayne Reynolds E. D. Tex. 1981 Mail fraud, 18 U.S.C. § 1341
Benito Maldonado Sanchez, Jr. W. D. Tex. 1960 Possession of marijuana without payment of transfer tax, 26 U.S.C. § 4744(1)
Vicki Lynn Seals
(fka Vicki Lynn Miller)
W. D. Tex. 1984 Making a false statement to a federally insured bank while an employee of that bank, 18 U.S.C.§ 1005
Lewis Craig Seymour W. D. Okla. 1979 Distribution of Phencyclidine (PCP), 21 U.S.C. § 841(a)(1)
Irving A. Smith D. Md. 1957 Conspiracy to engage in price-fixing, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1 and 2 (Sherman Act)
Darrin Paul Sobin E. D. Calif. 1987 Conspiracy to manufacture marijuana, 21 U.S.C. § 841(a)(1)
Monty Mac Stewart W. D. Okla. 1983 Conspiracy to defraud U.S. and counties within Oklahoma, mail fraud, and aiding and abetting filing a false income tax return, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2, 371, and 1341, and 26 U.S.C. § 7206(1)
Kevin Lester Teker W. D. Wash. 1989 Maliciously damaging property used in an activity affecting interstate commerce by means of an explosive, 18 U.S.C. § 844(i)
John Timothy Thompson W. D. Okla. 1986 Use of the telephone to facilitate cocaine distribution, 21 U.S.C. § 843(b)
Paul Loy Tobin S. D. Ala. 1968 Interstate transportation of stolen motor vehicle, 18 U.S.C. § 2312
Gerald William Wachter E. D. Pa. 1974 Conspiracy to cause stolen goods to be transported in interstate commerce, 18 U.S.C. § 371
Marian Lane Wolf N. D. Tex. 1988 Misprision of a felony, 18 U.S.C. § 4
Samuel Harrell Woodard 1. U.S. Air Force summary court-martial 1. 1952 1. Absent without leave
2. S. D. Ga. 2. 1955 2. Theft from an interstate shipment, 18 U.S.C. § 659
February 19, 1999
NAME DISTRICT SENTENCED OFFENSE
Henry Ossian Flipper U.S. Army general court-martial 1891 Conduct unbecoming an officer
December 23, 1999
NAME DISTRICT SENTENCED OFFENSE
Meredith Marcus Appleton, II W. D. Okla. 1990 Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute cocaine and to distribute cocaine, 21 U.S.C. § 846
Steven Laurence Barnett E. D. Calif. 1987 Misapplication of bank funds and aiding and abetting the same, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2 and 657
Russell Carl Clifton N. D. Calif. 1977 Transmission of a false distress signal, 47 U.S.C. § 325 (misdemeanor)
Albert McMullen Cox S. D. Ga. 1987 Bribery of a public official, 18 U.S.C. § 201(b)
Bernard Earl Crandall C. D. Ill. 1985 Theft from interstate shipment, 18 U.S.C. § 659
Eugene Harold Del Carlo N. D. Calif. 1979 Conspiracy and blackmail, 18 U.S.C. §§ 371 and 873 (misdemeanors)
Kenneth Lee Deusterman D. Minn. 1991 False statement to HUD, 18 U.S.C. § 1012
ALL BILL CLINTON Pardons..and thats not even half
U GET THE POINT
ok, thanks for all that useless information because we all know presidents pardon people..my point is how many of those pardoned held a high place in the bush administration ala Lewis Libby?
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ok, thanks for all that useless information because we all know presidents pardon people..my point is how many of those pardoned held a high place in the bush administration ala Lewis Libby?
Yes, at least Clinton did it the right way, he sold his Pardons for $ $ $ $ $ $
:o ::) :o ::) :o ::) :o ::) :o ::)
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Comparing Dems and Repubs is like camparing Coke and Pepsi.
Not much real difference.
No real substance in either one, and everyone knows neither is much good for you.
ALL packaging.
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ok..i'll put it this way...how many of those people he pardoned held such a position in his administration ala Scooter?
Former Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger is one. Bush Sr. pardoned a number of other high ranking members of his administration. I would imagine if you looked at pardons by governors over the years you'll find at least some who were former government officials too.
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It's about time.........
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,287780,00.html
Wow.... didn't see that one coming. :P
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Really? Considering he got sentenced for 30 months on something there was no proof of and Sandy Burgler get a slap on the wrist for getting caught red handed with classified documents down his underware and socks........yes "Sandra".....the "law of the land"!!
actually he admitted to it. And the sentence handed down was in accordance with the sentencing recommendations of the court. Lets not pick sides here because we want our team to win we ignore the obvious. This was done to avoid Libby making a deal with the persecution which might have had terrible repercussion for the administration.
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You don't want to start comparing pardons with Clinton. His record of questionable pardons is long and sickening. In a shameful pardons contest he wins each and every time. And you can lump Billary's dirtbag brother into that mess too.
What I find interesting is that people continue to use as examples actions they feel are wrong as justification for the actions of the people they support. In doing so you actually place the actions of the individuals you support in the category of wrong. Your essentially saying if this person did that than why cant he do this.
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actually he admitted to it. And the sentence handed down was in accordance with the sentencing recommendations of the court. Lets not pick sides here because we want our team to win we ignore the obvious. This was done to avoid Libby making a deal with the persecution which might have had terrible repercussion for the administration.
How so? The time to make a deal was before he was convicted and sentenced. The prosecutors can't do anything more to Libby.
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What I find interesting is that people continue to use as examples actions they feel are wrong as justification for the actions of the people they support. In doing so you actually place the actions of the individuals you support in the category of wrong. Your essentially saying if this person did that than why cant he do this.
I don't know if you're specifically referring to me or if you're just using my post to speak in general terms but I don't have a dog in this fight. I think both sides are pathetic. I don't agree with this commutation or the eventual Pardon that will follow but I also don't agree with those shady pardons Clinton handed out, many on the backs of monetary payoffs to Hillary's brother.
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I don't know if you're specifically referring to me or if you're just using my post to speak in general terms but I don't have a dog in this fight. I think both sides are pathetic. I don't agree with this commutation or the eventual Pardon that will follow but I also don't agree with those shady pardons Clinton handed out, many on the backs of monetary payoffs to Hillary's brother.
no no man, I was just speaking in generalities. I don't have a dog in this fight either. I don't think political parties should be followed with the loyalty one applies to their home town sports team. Once you do that you've lost all objectivity. I am pretty distrustful of politicians as a group whether they be liberal or conservative but there are points from each side that I tend to agree with.
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How so? The time to make a deal was before he was convicted and sentenced. The prosecutors can't do anything more to Libby.
Libby was going to be granted immunity for any testimony he would have given in order to avoid serving his sentence. He was offered by Fitzgerald have been able to speak freely about who else might have possibly been the prime movers who initiated the leaking of the CIA agent in the first place....(Rove/Cheney and possibly even the President might have had knowledge) Now that his sentence has been commuted there is no incentive for him to talk. That is how cases such as these operate. The sentence was just reviewed and considered appropriate so it was necessary for the pardon to take place no other time than now or he would have been forced to begin serving his sentence.
Also something that no one is considering is the words of the President himself who said the prosecution and verdict were legitimate. If they were legitimate then why reduce the sentence when the sentence was clearly within reasonable limits of the law. In fact the punishment was in direct sync with previous cases where the sentencing was identical or nearly identical. I have no vested interested in this other than to argue that this case should be examined based on the case itself and not through the lenses of partisan politics.
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Basically I see it as Bush pardoning himself.
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libby was framed by the liberals.
Man, that makes so much more sense. Damn Liberals.
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Libby was going to be granted immunity for any testimony he would have given in order to avoid serving his sentence. He was offered by Fitzgerald have been able to speak freely about who else might have possibly been the prime movers who initiated the leaking of the CIA agent in the first place....(Rove/Cheney and possibly even the President might have had knowledge) Now that his sentence has been commuted there is no incentive for him to talk. That is how cases such as these operate. The sentence was just reviewed and considered appropriate so it was necessary for the pardon to take place no other time than now or he would have been forced to begin serving his sentence.
Also something that no one is considering is the words of the President himself who said the prosecution and verdict were legitimate. If they were legitimate then why reduce the sentence when the sentence was clearly within reasonable limits of the law. In fact the punishment was in direct sync with previous cases where the sentencing was identical or nearly identical. I have no vested interested in this other than to argue that this case should be examined based on the case itself and not through the lenses of partisan politics.
You sure about that? Doesn't sound right. After the guy is convicted and sentenced the prosecutor is pretty much out of the picture. I don't think a prosecutor can delay a prison sentence. That's up to the judge. Are you getting this from a news story?
I'm not looking at this from a partisan angle either. I don't think the guy should have been prosecuted, much less convicted. Bush ought to just pardon the guy. I don't see this pardon as any different than Weinberger and all of the other high ranking officials pardoned by Bush Sr., or the all of the people pardoned by Clinton.
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This pardon is a slap in the face to democracy.
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Leaving aside the gross abuse of executive power, anyone who values free speech should be appalled by this decision. Joe Wilson speaks out against the pre invasion Iraq intelligence (and in retrospect he was 100% correct) and his wife’s career, life and the lives of her colleges are deliberately put in jeopardy by the Bush administration as punishment and to send a clear message to other potential dissenters. It both depresses and sickens me to read many of the brainless members here turning this into a partisan issue; it is not and this is not the conduct of a free and democratic regime, rather the masked actions of a totalitarian and fascist one.
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Leaving aside the gross abuse of executive power, anyone who values free speech should be appalled by this decision. Joe Wilson speaks out against the pre invasion Iraq intelligence (and in retrospect he was 100% correct) and his wife’s career, life and the lives of her colleges are deliberately put in jeopardy by the Bush administration as punishment and to send a clear message to other potential dissenters. It both depresses and sickens me to read many of the brainless members here turning this into a partisan issue; it is not and this is not the conduct of a free and democratic regime, rather the masked actions of a totalitarian and fascist one.
“Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.”
--Caesar
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How terrible. Nothing like the president exercising powers granted to him in the Constitution, like pardoning Dan Rostenkowski and numerous drug dealers.
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Has anyone ever considered that regardless of what administration did what, people who should have gone to prison didn't. this is the case with Libby and many others from other administrations in the past. This power allows the president to use a fall guy to do something illegal and in the end the fall guy gets out free of charge.
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Has anyone ever considered that regardless of what administration did what, people who should have gone to prison didn't. this is the case with Libby and many others from other administrations in the past. This power allows the president to use a fall guy to do something illegal and in the end the fall guy gets out free of charge.
Except this fall guy wasn't convicted of outing a covert agent.
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Except this fall guy wasn't convicted of outing a covert agent.
he either broke the law or didn't right? What ever law that maybe, he was found guilty?
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he either broke the law or didn't right? What ever law that maybe, he was found guilty?
Yes he broke the law.
You said "This power allows the president to use a fall guy to do something illegal and in the end the fall guy gets out free of charge." This would ring true if Libby was convicted of outing a covert agent at the president's and/or vice president's direction, which is what this entire investigation/prosecution was all about.
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Yes he broke the law.
You said "This power allows the president to use a fall guy to do something illegal and in the end the fall guy gets out free of charge." This would ring true if Libby was convicted of outing a covert agent at the president's and/or vice president's direction, which is what this entire investigation/prosecution was all about.
Maybe in this case no, but there was wrong doing................. was it solely libby?
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Maybe in this case no, but there was wrong doing................. was it solely libby?
Wrongdoing by who? There was wrongdoing by Libby, but that was lying and obstruction of justice. No one has been charged with outing a covert agent. I think if the pardon would have came before a trial, then it would not have passed the smell test. But here you had the prosecutor throwing everything he had at Libby and none of it involved outing a covert agent. That's the real issue IMO.
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I suppose Libby was lying for the fun of it and not to protect himself/whoever else from being charged with "outing a covert agent" ::)
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Wrongdoing by who? There was wrongdoing by Libby, but that was lying and obstruction of justice. No one has been charged with outing a covert agent. I think if the pardon would have came before a trial, then it would not have passed the smell test. But here you had the prosecutor throwing everything he had at Libby and none of it involved outing a covert agent. That's the real issue IMO.
I agree. But if he didn't out the agent where does the obstruction and lying issues come from? It might very be that they weren't able to prove something that happened. i realize that's all speculation but, had he been found guilty my assertion would apply as it still does indirectly in this case. Presidential pardons for the right reasons make sense. Pardons to help those in your administration who were found guilty for something isn't good IMO. That goes for any and all administrations.
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I would be nice to see the president pardon the two border patrol agents who were sentenced to hard prison time by the witness of a known drug-dealer who was also illegally in the country.
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I would be nice to see the president pardon the two border patrol agents who were sentenced to hard prison time by the witness of a known drug-dealer who was also illegally in the country.
There's somthing funny there Huh? Can you say well connected Drug Dealers w/ somthing on sombody? ;)
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I agree. But if he didn't out the agent where does the obstruction and lying issues come from? It might very be that they weren't able to prove something that happened. i realize that's all speculation but, had he been found guilty my assertion would apply as it still does indirectly in this case. Presidential pardons for the right reasons make sense. Pardons to help those in your administration who were found guilty for something isn't good IMO. That goes for any and all administrations.
Well, I don't know what the precise lie was, but we know he wasn't convicted of lying about whether or not he outed a covert agent. Sounds like he was just stupid.
I agree that pardons involving members of the president's administration can be problematic, but Ford pardoned Nixon, Bush Sr. pardoned a former defense secretary and many others, Clinton pardoned scumbags that included a former Democrat Congressman. I bet governors have done the same.
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Except this fall guy wasn't convicted of outing a covert agent.
Thanks to Libby's obstruction of justice, we'll never get to the bottom of this case.
And for those of you comparing Clinton's pardons to this commutation, stop it. The two are completely different. A more apt comparision would be with this:
BUSH PARDONS WEINBERGER, FIVE OTHERS TIED TO IRAN-CONTRA
http://www.fas.org/news/iran/1992/921224-260039.htm
The two are comparable b/c in both instances--the pardon & commutation--the presidents (both named Bush) were insulating themselves and their administrations from any wrongdoing by pardoning/commuting the felon(s).
Bush commuted the sentence of a felon who has concrete ties to the whitehouse and whose crime likely insulated his superiors (including Bush) from further investigation or accountability.
If you pro-libby folks thought this out, you'd realize that precedent like this would make organized crime untouchable.
All you gotta do is have a fall-guy lie to the cops and pervert the course of justice. Gotti was rarely the murderer--but he gave the orders for others to do his bidding.
With Libby's help, the burying of the crime of exposing a covert WMD spy in a time of war has been accomplished.
Nobody should be patting themselves on the back over that.
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Thanks to Libby's obstruction of justice, we'll never get to the bottom of this case.
And for those of you comparing Clinton's pardons to this commutation, stop it. The two are completely different. A more apt comparision would be with this:
BUSH PARDONS WEINBERGER, FIVE OTHERS TIED TO IRAN-CONTRA
http://www.fas.org/news/iran/1992/921224-260039.htm
The two are comparable b/c in both instances--the pardon & commutation--the presidents (both named Bush) were insulating themselves and their administrations from any wrongdoing by pardoning/commuting the felon(s).
Bush commuted the sentence of a felon who has concrete ties to the whitehouse and whose crime likely insulated his superiors (including Bush) from further investigation or accountability.
If you pro-libby folks thought this out, you'd realize that precedent like this would make organized crime untouchable.
All you gotta do is have a fall-guy lie to the cops and pervert the course of justice. Gotti was rarely the murderer--but he gave the orders for others to do his bidding.
With Libby's help, the burying of the crime of exposing a covert WMD spy in a time of war has been accomplished.
Nobody should be patting themselves on the back over that.
I don't think anyone is trying to perform a strict comparison between the pardons of Clinton and Bush. I think the ultimate point is that both made highly questionable decisions in terms of who they pardoned.
The main difference being a few of Clinton's pardons had the stink of monetary payoffs all over them.
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19675580/
Ya know, it may be impossible to even impeach Bush.
May be necessary for them take him down like Pacino in Scarface even if theyd get a conviction.
He aint just ever gona wave goodby and hop on the bird like Tricky Dick. No.. No.. No.
There is such a thing as too much balls.
He's over the line.
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I don't think anyone is trying to perform a strict comparison between the pardons of Clinton and Bush. I think the ultimate point is that both made highly questionable decisions in terms of who they pardoned.
The main difference being a few of Clinton's pardons had the stink of monetary payoffs all over them.
Clinton's pardons were not unusual at all.
Bush's commutation effectively offered libby legal insulation thus cutting off further investigation of the Bush whitehouse for a capital crime.
And besides, who cares what Clinton did? The 1990s are over...have been for years.
So much for Bush restoring honor and integrity to the whitehouse...the best some people have to offer is, "oh yeah, well Clinton did it too!"...which he didn't, as I pointed out.
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Clinton's pardons were not unusual at all.
Bush's commutation effectively offered libby legal insulation thus cutting off further investigation of the Bush whitehouse for a capital crime.
Thats the whole point. Bush is above the Law as far as he's concerned.
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Clinton's pardons were not unusual at all.
Bush's commutation effectively offered libby legal insulation thus cutting off further investigation of the Bush whitehouse for a capital crime.
And besides, who cares what Clinton did? The 1990s are over...have been for years.
So much for Bush restoring honor and integrity to the whitehouse...the best some people have to offer is, "oh yeah, well Clinton did it too!"...which he didn't, as I pointed out.
Is it common practice for Presidents to pardon people after payments have been made to that President's brother-in-law? I don't remember such a scandal surrounding any other Presidents.
Anyone that thought Bush/Cheney was going to restore honor and integrity into the White House probably still believes in the Tooth Fairy. He's a disgrace and at this point nearly everyone (a few diehard neotaints notwithstanding) admits it.
Regarding caring about Clinton, ultimately I don't but if certain Liberals/Democrats are going to criticize Bush for his shady commutations/pardons then they should also be ready to criticize Clinton for his as well.
My real point is that the last two Presidents have handed down shady/unethical pardons, the degree to which they were unethical can be debated.
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How can anyone compare this pardon to Clinton's? :-\
The fact is that this was blanet abuse of power, regardless of whether it was completely legal or not. Just because someone has the power to lay a killer off the hook doesn't mean he should.
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Is it common practice for Presidents to pardon people after payments have been made to that President's brother-in-law? I don't remember such a scandal surrounding any other Presidents.
Anyone that thought Bush/Cheney was going to restore honor and integrity into the White House probably still believes in the Tooth Fairy. He's a disgrace and at this point nearly everyone (a few diehard neotaints notwithstanding) admits it.
Regarding caring about Clinton, ultimately I don't but if certain Liberals/Democrats are going to criticize Bush for his shady commutations/pardons then they should also be ready to criticize Clinton for his as well.
My real point is that the last two Presidents have handed down shady/unethical pardons, the degree to which they were unethical can be debated.
Clinton's pardons are irrelevant to the matter of the Bush/Libby commutation. The issue should stand on its own, unless you can think of reasons why Clinton is relevant.
Why not bring up the pardons of LBJ or Thomas Jefferson?
Pardons are always shady b/c felons are involved. What Bush did was to cover his own ass and his administration. For what it's worth, Clinton did not do that.
So I don't think Clinton is germane.
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Clinton's pardons are irrelevant to the matter of the Bush/Libby commutation. The issue should stand on its own, unless you can think of reasons why Clinton is relevant.
Why not bring up the pardons of LBJ or Thomas Jefferson?
Pardons are always shady b/c felons are involved. What Bush did was to cover his own ass and his administration. For what it's worth, Clinton did not do that.
So I don't think Clinton is germane.
Decker I think your point would carry more weight of the pardon was issued before a public trial. There is no cover up here. No new facts were going to come out during Libby's appeal.
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How can anyone compare this pardon to Clinton's? :-\
The fact is that this was blanet abuse of power, regardless of whether it was completely legal or not. Just because someone has the power to lay a killer off the hook doesn't mean he should.
I'm sure out the 141 pardons he gave in the last 9 days of his presidency, some can be compared ::)!!
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I'm sure out the 141 pardons he gave in the last 9 days of his presidency, some can be compared ::)!!
Find them then and see if they were in any way comprable to the Libby one..
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Clinton's pardons are irrelevant to the matter of the Bush/Libby commutation. The issue should stand on its own, unless you can think of reasons why Clinton is relevant.
Why not bring up the pardons of LBJ or Thomas Jefferson?
Pardons are always shady b/c felons are involved. What Bush did was to cover his own ass and his administration. For what it's worth, Clinton did not do that.
So I don't think Clinton is germane.
I agree, they are irrelevant. I commented on Clinton's pardons because HH6 posted a list of them.
I don't agree with Bush's commutation in this instance and I won't agree with the pardon that will follow. I have lost all faith in Bush/Cheney so please don't interpret any of my posts as a defense of this Administration.
I have read about certain pardons that I thought were righteous, pardons I wouldn't have voted against if given the chance. This one doesn't fall under that category.
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Find them then and see if they were in any way comprable to the Libby one..
http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pardonchartlst.htm
Hope this helps!!
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Susan McDougal kinda stuck out............
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/stories/01/20/clinton.pardon/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_McDougal
Need more??
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Decker I think your point would carry more weight of the pardon was issued before a public trial. There is no cover up here. No new facts were going to come out during Libby's appeal.
Libby was convicted after a full adjudication of his case. He was not cooperating with the authorities. All he had to do was wait for his bosses to fix it for him and all interested parties would be served well. And that's what happened.
If you do not see a quid pro quo here, then you are not looking.
Libby lied and is continuing to lie and cover up the identity of the source of the leak.
There is a cover up here. Libby was successful in obstructing the investigation and Bush rewarded him with a commutation. It is that simple.
There was a treasonous crime of outing a US covert spy during a time of war and no one has been held accountable for that crime.
No one.
Just remember the testimony of convicted felon I. Libby:
Libby Says Bush Authorized Leaks
http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/0406nj1.htm
So the next time you hear Bush chastising those who leaked the information, remember you're being served a steaming pile of criminal conspiracy.
Pointing that out and proving it are two different matters and this administration is superb at covering its ass when the law has been broken or skirted.
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http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pardonchartlst.htm
Hope this helps!!
That does not help at all.
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Susan McDougal kinda stuck out............
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/stories/01/20/clinton.pardon/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_McDougal
Need more??
Irrelevant.
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Libby was convicted after a full adjudication of his case. He was not cooperating with the authorities. All he had to do was wait for his bosses to fix it for him and all interested parties would be served well. And that's what happened.
If you do not see a quid pro quo here, then you are not looking.
Libby lied and is continuing to lie and cover up the identity of the source of the leak.
There is a cover up here. Libby was successful in obstructing the investigation and Bush rewarded him with a commutation. It is that simple.
There was a treasonous crime of outing a US covert spy during a time of war and no one has been held accountable for that crime.
No one.
Just remember the testimony of convicted felon I. Libby:
Libby Says Bush Authorized Leaks
http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/0406nj1.htm
So the next time you hear Bush chastising those who leaked the information, remember you're being served a steaming pile of criminal conspiracy.
Pointing that out and proving it are two different matters and this administration is superb at covering its ass when the law has been broken or skirted.
Sounds like a whole lot of assumptions to me. The cover up argument really doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because, like you said, "Libby was convicted after a full adjudication of his case." He had nothing more to lose. He had a public trial. He couldn't make any kind of deal with the prosecutor. That time was gone.
Also, keep in mind every major Republican presidential candidate said Libby should be pardoned.
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Sounds like a whole lot of assumptions to me. The cover up argument really doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because, like you said, "Libby was convicted after a full adjudication of his case." He had nothing more to lose. He had a public trial. He couldn't make any kind of deal with the prosecutor. That time was gone.
Also, keep in mind every major Republican presidential candidate said Libby should be pardoned.
I don't understand your statement that Libby had nothing more to lose--he lost 30 months of freedom and things could only look up for him by keeping his mouth shut. Please recall that in the beginning of the trial, Libby was flat out saying that the Bush whitehouse was a player in the leak. Then 1/2 through the case, he clammed up. Libby would not cooperate with the prosecution to make a deal.
He was continuing to obstruct the investigation.
Somebody leaked Plame's identity and it wasn't Armitage.
So we have a crime without a criminal? I don't think so. Thanks to Libby, we may never know.
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Irrelevant.
It's irrelevent to you because Clinton is a liberal, but since it was Bush............
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I don't understand your statement that Libby had nothing more to lose--he lost 30 months of freedom and things could only look up for him by keeping his mouth shut. Please recall that in the beginning of the trial, Libby was flat out saying that the Bush whitehouse was a player in the leak. Then 1/2 through the case, he clammed up. Libby would not cooperate with the prosecution to make a deal.
He was continuing to obstruct the investigation.
Somebody leaked Plame's identity and it wasn't Armitage.
So we have a crime without a criminal? I don't think so. Thanks to Libby, we may never know.
He had nothing more to lose because he has already been tried, convicted, and sentenced. He couldn't cut a deal with anyone. Yes he was going to do time, so he would lose his freedom. But he was already a convicted felon. What did he need to keep his mouth shut about? You're assuming he had something to say. How do you know Libby is the only person who knows how this agent was outed?
We have an alleged crime and no criminals. That's why I don't think Libby should go to jail. The prez should just pardon him and get it over with.
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He had nothing more to lose because he has already been tried, convicted, and sentenced. He couldn't cut a deal with anyone. Yes he was going to do time, so he would lose his freedom. But he was already a convicted felon. What did he need to keep his mouth shut about? You're assuming he had something to say. How do you know Libby is the only person who knows how this agent was outed?
We have an alleged crime and no criminals. That's why I don't think Libby should go to jail. The prez should just pardon him and get it over with.
I assume he had something to say b/c he was perjuring himself on material matters and he would not cooperate with prosecutors.
It doesn't matter whether Libby is the only person knowing the identity of the criminal leaker.
Don't you think that Libby knew that if he kept his mouth shut he would be rewarded by his boss Cheney with at the very least, a commutation of sentence?
Libby is a bright guy and a lawyer--he knows how the game is played.
His status as felon is inconsequential. Just ask convicted felon Elliot Abrams. He lied to Congress re Iran Contra and Pres. Bush pardoned him to cover his own ass.
Sound familiar? Boy it sure runs in the family. When a tact works, run with it.
Currently Abrams is "Deputy National Security Advisor for Global Democracy Strategy"--a very high position in the current Bush administration. Bush appointed him to the spot.
Or ask John Poindexter another felon convicted of obstructing justice and lying about the Iran Contra affair. He served as DARPA chief in the current Bush Administration.
Or ask felon Ollie North--he's doing fairly well these days. Didn't he run for Congress?
So the mere inconvenience of a felony would not likely inhibit Abrams career.
You do see a pattern emerging, right?
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Not necessarily. There are hundreds of sentences commuted and pardons issued every year by governors and the prez. Not uncommon at all.
Clinton was the PARDON KING!
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I assume he had something to say b/c he was perjuring himself on material matters and he would not cooperate with prosecutors.
It doesn't matter whether Libby is the only person knowing the identity of the criminal leaker.
Don't you think that Libby knew that if he kept his mouth shut he would be rewarded by his boss Cheney with at the very least, a commutation of sentence?
Libby is a bright guy and a lawyer--he knows how the game is played.
His status as felon is inconsequential. Just ask convicted felon Elliot Abrams. He lied to Congress re Iran Contra and Pres. Bush pardoned him to cover his own ass.
Sound familiar? Boy it sure runs in the family. When a tact works, run with it.
Currently Abrams is "Deputy National Security Advisor for Global Democracy Strategy"--a very high position in the current Bush administration. Bush appointed him to the spot.
Or ask John Poindexter another felon convicted of obstructing justice and lying about the Iran Contra affair. He served as DARPA chief in the current Bush Administration.
Or ask felon Ollie North--he's doing fairly well these days. Didn't he run for Congress?
So the mere inconvenience of a felony would not likely inhibit Abrams career.
You do see a pattern emerging, right?
No I don't see a pattern. All I see is a lot of assumptions.
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No I don't see a pattern. All I see is a lot of assumptions.
The father as president pardons felons that could implicate Bush and his staff in Iran/Contra.
The son as president commutes the sentence of a felon that could implicate Bush and his staff in the treasonous crime of outing a covert spy during a time of war.
You see no pattern of similarity there?
Get out of jail free, despite the underlying treasonous crime, is no way to reward perjurers and obstructionists.
Bush's commutation of the Libby sentence sets a horrible standard for the operation of justice.
Lie and obstruct justice and you will do no jail time.
Is that the kind of message we want our president sending Beach Bum?
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The father as president pardons felons that could implicate Bush and his staff in Iran/Contra.
The son as president commutes the sentence of a felon that could implicate Bush and his staff in the treasonous crime of outing a covert spy during a time of war.
You see no pattern of similarity there?
Get out of jail free, despite the underlying treasonous crime, is no way to reward perjurers and obstructionists.
Bush's commutation of the Libby sentence sets a horrible standard for the operation of justice.
Lie and obstruct justice and you will do no jail time.
Is that the kind of message we want our president sending Beach Bum?
I don't think it's that simple. I am not a fan of special prosecutors. Lawrence Walsh wasted millions of tax dollars running down rabbit trails. I was opposed to his efforts. Felt the same way about Ken Starr. Complete waste of my money. Still, I think Bush Sr.'s pardons of Weinberger et al. were far more problematic than commuting Libby's sentence. Pardoning someone before a trial can give the appearance that there may be some kind of cover up. Pardoning someone after a public trial doesn't raise those same concerns in my mind.
Every person who has been pardoned after a conviction has committed a very serious crime (assuming he was not wrongfully convicted). Libby is no different than any other pardoned felon. They're all criminals. The view that his sentence was commuted to keep him from somehow exposing an unknown person for a crime that no one has been charged with committing is pure speculation.
I think you can look at a plethora of presidential pardons and say they send a bad message. There really isn't much of a distinction. We either have to live with this unchecked power we have given to the executive branch or change the rules.
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I don't think it's that simple. I am not a fan of special prosecutors. Lawrence Walsh wasted millions of tax dollars running down rabbit trails. I was opposed to his efforts. Felt the same way about Ken Starr. Complete waste of my money. Still, I think Bush Sr.'s pardons of Weinberger et al. were far more problematic than commuting Libby's sentence. Pardoning someone before a trial can give the appearance that there may be some kind of cover up. Pardoning someone after a public trial doesn't raise those same concerns in my mind.
Every person who has been pardoned after a conviction has committed a very serious crime (assuming he was not wrongfully convicted). Libby is no different than any other pardoned felon. They're all criminals. The view that his sentence was commuted to keep him from somehow exposing an unknown person for a crime that no one has been charged with committing is pure speculation.
I think you can look at a plethora of presidential pardons and say they send a bad message. There really isn't much of a distinction. We either have to live with this unchecked power we have given to the executive branch or change the rules.
You don't see Libby's get-out-of-jail-free incentive to keep lying and obstructing justice, i.e., not cooperating with the authorities?
He knows his bosses can and will fix his jail time as long as he keeps his mouth shut. That is circumstantial yet sound.
Libby did not cooperate with the investigation--his obstruction killed it in its tracks. That's why he was jailed.
Somebody committed the underlying crime.
Please point out one other presidential pardon that completely shields the president from investigation re treason (Iran Contra/Spy exposed) the way the two Bushes did it?
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You don't see Libby's get-out-of-jail-free incentive to keep lying and obstructing justice, i.e., not cooperating with the authorities?
He knows his bosses can and will fix his jail time as long as he keeps his mouth shut. That is circumstantial yet sound.
Libby did not cooperate with the investigation--his obstruction killed it in its tracks. That's why he was jailed.
Somebody committed the underlying crime.
Please point out one other presidential pardon that completely shields the president from investigation re treason (Iran Contra/Spy exposed) the way the two Bushes did it?
I doubt Libby is different than many other persons being investigated for a serious crime. Of course you keep your mouth shut when the feds are after you. Take the Fifth, etc.
I thought there was a disagreement over whether or not an underlying crime was actually committed?
I have not researched presidential pardons well enough to know about pardons that shield the president from investigations for treason, but I don't recall Reagan, Bush Sr. or Dubya being investigated for treason either.
Sounds like you think Libby is the only person who has information about this so-called crime?
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I think the Libby pardon is a disgrace.
Some of Clinton's pardons were ok, but some were definitely not, and a few were a disgrace IMO.
Bush had to pardon Libby, since Libby would've been offered a deal to sing on Cheney or whoever was pulling the strings.
Either way, Bush loses.
-Hedge
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I doubt Libby is different than many other persons being investigated for a serious crime. Of course you keep your mouth shut when the feds are after you. Take the Fifth, etc.
I thought there was a disagreement over whether or not an underlying crime was actually committed?
I have not researched presidential pardons well enough to know about pardons that shield the president from investigations for treason, but I don't recall Reagan, Bush Sr. or Dubya being investigated for treason either.
Sounds like you think Libby is the only person who has information about this so-called crime?
If Libby were fully pardoned, he would lose his 5th Am right to not incriminate himself. But he wasn't pardoned so his 5th A right remains intact and his obstruction of the investigation is complete.
Was an underlying crime committed?
When is a crime not a crime?
Here is the US Code that was violated by the outing of Plame destroying her NOC status:
US Code Title 50 Chapter 15 Section 413b as
(e) ''Covert action'' defined :
As used in this subchapter, the term ''covert action'' means an activity or activities of the United States Government to influence political, economic, or military conditions abroad, where it is intended that the role of the United States Government will not be apparent or acknowledged publicly, but does not include -
(1) activities the primary purpose of which is to acquire intelligence, traditional counterintelligence activities, traditional activities to improve or maintain the operational security of United States Government programs, or administrative activities;
(2) traditional diplomatic or military activities or routine support to such activities
She was covert. There is no debate about that fact. Her identity was blown by a big mouth from the Bush Administration. All her intelligence work on WMDs and our enemies was destroyed as was her career.
But what if you are correct that no crime was committed. How could that be?
Libby: Bush Authorized Plamegate Leak
Indicted ex-Cheney aide told grand jury of White House approval
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0406061libby1.html
If bush declassified her status (for reasons of crushing opposition to the war--read Joe Wilson, her husband--and revenge) then the leak is not a crime.
It's very nice to know that our president is undermining the war on terror and the effort to curb the proliferation of WMDs to score political points while ruling with an iron hand to make his illegal invasion of iraq happen.
Publicly here's what Bush said about the crime: President vows to fire anyone who committed a crimehttp://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/07/18/cia.leak/
What a piece garbage this man is--there is no crime if he, the president, declassified Plame's identity.
The man hurt america....made us less safe.
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There absolutely was a crime. the only thing we don't know at this point is who is (are) the actual criminals. I believe the law requires proof that the covert agent was knowingly outed. Given that Libby's original defense was going to be that the White House authorized the leaking I think we can safely assume that they KNEW she was covert. Does anyone here think that Cheney/Bush/Libby/Rove actually learned this fact from reporters or from Armitage. Frankly, they should all be tried for obstruction.
Bush admitted yesterday that someone in his administration "perhaps" leaked the name of a CIA operative but now it's "time to move on"
I say it's time we actually got to the bottom of this ACT of TREASON
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118426038242564851.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
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There absolutely was a crime. the only thing we don't know at this point is who is (are) the actual criminals. I believe the law requires proof that the covert agent was knowingly outed. Given that Libby's original defense was going to be that the White House authorized the leaking I think we can safely assume that they KNEW she was covert. Does anyone here think that Cheney/Bush/Libby/Rove actually learned this fact from reporters or from Armitage. Frankly, they should all be tried for obstruction.
Bush admitted yesterday that someone in his administration "perhaps" leaked the name of a CIA operative but now it's "time to move on"
I say it's time we actually got to the bottom of this ACT of TREASON
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118426038242564851.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Well said!
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Well said!
thanks
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i'm wondering when he's going to get around to pardoning the two border patrol agents thrown in jail for ten years for shooting a drug dealing, border running, mexican in the ass.
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i'm wondering when he's going to get around to pardoning the two border patrol agents thrown in jail for ten years for shooting a drug dealing, border running, mexican in the ass.
Fantastic question, I've been wondering the same thing myself. Talk about a disgrace.
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If Libby were fully pardoned, he would lose his 5th Am right to not incriminate himself. But he wasn't pardoned so his 5th A right remains intact and his obstruction of the investigation is complete.
Was an underlying crime committed?
When is a crime not a crime?
Here is the US Code that was violated by the outing of Plame destroying her NOC status:
US Code Title 50 Chapter 15 Section 413b as
(e) ''Covert action'' defined :
As used in this subchapter, the term ''covert action'' means an activity or activities of the United States Government to influence political, economic, or military conditions abroad, where it is intended that the role of the United States Government will not be apparent or acknowledged publicly, but does not include -
(1) activities the primary purpose of which is to acquire intelligence, traditional counterintelligence activities, traditional activities to improve or maintain the operational security of United States Government programs, or administrative activities;
(2) traditional diplomatic or military activities or routine support to such activities
She was covert. There is no debate about that fact. Her identity was blown by a big mouth from the Bush Administration. All her intelligence work on WMDs and our enemies was destroyed as was her career.
But what if you are correct that no crime was committed. How could that be?
Libby: Bush Authorized Plamegate Leak
Indicted ex-Cheney aide told grand jury of White House approval
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0406061libby1.html
If bush declassified her status (for reasons of crushing opposition to the war--read Joe Wilson, her husband--and revenge) then the leak is not a crime.
It's very nice to know that our president is undermining the war on terror and the effort to curb the proliferation of WMDs to score political points while ruling with an iron hand to make his illegal invasion of iraq happen.
Publicly here's what Bush said about the crime: President vows to fire anyone who committed a crimehttp://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/07/18/cia.leak/
What a piece garbage this man is--there is no crime if he, the president, declassified Plame's identity.
The man hurt america....made us less safe.
There is indeed a debate over whether an underlying crime was committed:
Conservative Presidential Candidates Back Libby Pardon
During tonight’s presidential debate, CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer asked all the candidates to say whether they would pardon Scooter Libby, who was sentenced to 2.5 years in prison today for his felony convictions related to the CIA leak case.
Former mayor Rudy Giuliani said the case “argues more in favor of a pardon,” calling today’s sentencing “way out of line” and “grossly excessive.” Giuliani said the case against Libby was “incomprehensible” because “ultimately, there was no underlying crime involved.”
Likewise, former governor Mitt Romney said it’s “worth looking at a pardon,” because special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald “clearly abused prosecutorial discretion” by going on a “political vendetta” against Libby despite knowing he was not the original source of the leak.
Sen. Sam Brownback (R-KS) and Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-CO) said definitively they would pardon Libby. Former governor Tommy Thompson said he likely would. Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) answered, “He’s going through an appeal process. We’ve got to see what happens here.” Former governors Jim Gilmore and Mike Huckabee and Reps. Duncan Hunter (R-CA) and Ron Paul (R-TX) said they would not pardon him, at least without learning more about the case.
. . .
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/06/05/pardon-libby-debate/
Even if you assume an underlying crime was committed, Libby wasn't charged with that crime. How do you know he is the only person on the planet with knowledge about who outed this woman?
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There is indeed a debate over whether an underlying crime was committed:
Conservative Presidential Candidates Back Libby Pardon
During tonight’s presidential debate, CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer asked all the candidates to say whether they would pardon Scooter Libby, who was sentenced to 2.5 years in prison today for his felony convictions related to the CIA leak case.
Former mayor Rudy Giuliani said the case “argues more in favor of a pardon,” calling today’s sentencing “way out of line” and “grossly excessive.” Giuliani said the case against Libby was “incomprehensible” because “ultimately, there was no underlying crime involved.”
Likewise, former governor Mitt Romney said it’s “worth looking at a pardon,” because special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald “clearly abused prosecutorial discretion” by going on a “political vendetta” against Libby despite knowing he was not the original source of the leak.
Sen. Sam Brownback (R-KS) and Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-CO) said definitively they would pardon Libby. Former governor Tommy Thompson said he likely would. Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) answered, “He’s going through an appeal process. We’ve got to see what happens here.” Former governors Jim Gilmore and Mike Huckabee and Reps. Duncan Hunter (R-CA) and Ron Paul (R-TX) said they would not pardon him, at least without learning more about the case.
. . .
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/06/05/pardon-libby-debate/
Even if you assume an underlying crime was committed, Libby wasn't charged with that crime. How do you know he is the only person on the planet with knowledge about who outed this woman?
I don't understand this entire "no underlying crime" line of reasoning. Could you explain it to me? We're like two ships passing in the night.
In my opinion we are all looking at the dead body while you are saying, "No homicide occurred here."
By the fact that Plame's NOC status was exposed, i.e., that you and I know about her undercover status, a crime was committed: somebody exposed her undercover identity to the world.
That is the underlying crime.
Libby's interference in the investigation of that crime is also a crime. This is well-established long-standing law. Giuliani knows this and he is pandering in the worst way.
Again, it doesn't matter if Libby is the only person with knowledge of who outed Plame. Libby discussed Plame w/ NY Times's liberal reporter Judith Miller several times prior to Novak's publishing her name in his column--the Armitage connection is dry.
Now I would agree with you if Libby is right and the President declassified Plame's undercover status so that his cronies could villify Plame's husband in the press.
If that's the case, then Bush really is actively hurting this country purely for political purposes.
Either way, the Bush administration comes out of this looking at best, criminally negligent and at worst, treasonous.
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I don't understand this entire "no underlying crime" line of reasoning. Could you explain it to me? We're like two ships passing in the night.
In my opinion we are all looking at the dead body while you are saying, "No homicide occurred here."
By the fact that Plame's NOC status was exposed, i.e., that you and I know about her undercover status, a crime was committed: somebody exposed her undercover identity to the world.
That is the underlying crime.
Libby's interference in the investigation of that crime is also a crime. This is well-established long-standing law. Giuliani knows this and he is pandering in the worst way.
Again, it doesn't matter if Libby is the only person with knowledge of who outed Plame. Libby discussed Plame w/ NY Times's liberal reporter Judith Miller several times prior to Novak's publishing her name in his column--the Armitage connection is dry.
Now I would agree with you if Libby is right and the President declassified Plame's undercover status so that his cronies could villify Plame's husband in the press.
If that's the case, then Bush really is actively hurting this country purely for political purposes.
Either way, the Bush administration comes out of this looking at best, criminally negligent and at worst, treasonous.
A dead body doesn't always = homicide. Could be natural causes, suicide, self defense . . . .
I said there is a debate about whether an underlying crime was committed. There are two issues in this regard:
1. Libby was not charged with outing Plame.
2. No one has been charged with or even accused of outing Plame.
This is why Rudy says "ultimately, there was no underlying crime involved."
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A dead body doesn't always = homicide. Could be natural causes, suicide, self defense . . . .
I said there is a debate about whether an underlying crime was committed. There are two issues in this regard:
1. Libby was not charged with outing Plame.
2. No one has been charged with or even accused of outing Plame.
This is why Rudy says "ultimately, there was no underlying crime involved."
Thanks for the explanation.
I understand now.
I think that reasoning is specious and here's why.
There are two options here:
1. Somebody leaked classified information re Plame's status--that's a crime or
2. Somebody leaked declassified information re Plame's status--that is not a crime.
But for the leaked information, no one would know Plame's true identity/status. There is no middle road here.
If No. 1 is the answer, then Libby's obstruction of Justice made it impossible to charge the real culprit.
If No. 2 is the answer, then Libby committed perjury and obstructed justice just for the heck of it.
Can you see why I have a problem with this case and the "no underlying crime" rationale?
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Thanks for the explanation.
I understand now.
I think that reasoning is specious and here's why.
There are two options here:
1. Somebody leaked classified information re Plame's status--that's a crime or
2. Somebody leaked declassified information re Plame's status--that is not a crime.
But for the leaked information, no one would know Plame's true identity/status. There is no middle road here.
If No. 1 is the answer, then Libby's obstruction of Justice made it impossible to charge the real culprit.
If No. 2 is the answer, then Libby committed perjury and obstructed justice just for the heck of it.
Can you see why I have a problem with this case and the "no underlying crime" rationale?
Decker I understand your point and why you are concerned. I agree that if anyone broke the law by disclosing this woman's identity they should be punished, whether that is Bush, Cheney, or a member of their staff.
Re your No. 1, I'm not sure how you conclude that Libby's obstruction of justice made it impossible to charge the real culprit? Assuming a covert agent was illegally outed, how do you determine that Libby is the only person who knows the culprit's identity?
Libby lied about his conversations with reporters. I don't know why he did, but his lies don't reveal much.
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Decker I understand your point and why you are concerned. I agree that if anyone broke the law by disclosing this woman's identity they should be punished, whether that is Bush, Cheney, or a member of their staff.
Re your No. 1, I'm not sure how you conclude that Libby's obstruction of justice made it impossible to charge the real culprit? Assuming a covert agent was illegally outed, how do you determine that Libby is the only person who knows the culprit's identity?
Libby lied about his conversations with reporters. I don't know why he did, but his lies don't reveal much.
Here is what Libby lied about:
...Libby’s “faulty memory” caused him not only to deny where he had learned about Plame — a note produced in the trial showed Vice President Cheney had told him she worked in the Counterproliferation Department of the CIA (where the majority of employees are covert) — but to invent stories saying he HAD leaked to reporters when he hadn’t. He claimed to have been the first to tell Matt Cooper about Wilson’s wife, thereby covering up the fact that Karl Rove had done so. And he shielded Fleischer by falsely claiming to have told the Post’s Glenn Kessler as well, apparently trying to cover for the Post’s October 12, 2003 report that a journalist for the Post (who turned out to be Walter Pincus) had been leaked to — a news story that was found, with key passages underlined, in Libby’s files.
Thus Libby was convicted not just of perjury but of intentionally lying in order to obstruct the investigation, and rightly so.http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/06/14/why-the-trail-of-plame-leads-to-or-through-scooter-libby/
The prosecutor for the case said as much:
Rebutting the defense's assertion that Cheney was not behind the leak, Fitzgerald told jurors, "You know what? [Wells] said something here that we're trying to put a cloud on the vice president. We'll talk straight. There is a cloud over the vice president. He sent Libby off to [meet with former New York Times reporter] Judith Miller at the St. Regis Hotel. At that meeting, the two hour meeting, the defendant talked about the wife [Plame]. We didn't put that cloud there. That cloud remains because the defendant obstructed justice and lied about what happened."
Libby's lies obstructed and killed the investigation.
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Decker I understand your point and why you are concerned. I agree that if anyone broke the law by disclosing this woman's identity they should be punished, whether that is Bush, Cheney, or a member of their staff.
Re your No. 1, I'm not sure how you conclude that Libby's obstruction of justice made it impossible to charge the real culprit? Assuming a covert agent was illegally outed, how do you determine that Libby is the only person who knows the culprit's identity?
Libby lied about his conversations with reporters. I don't know why he did, but his lies don't reveal much.
Hey Bum,
News Flash - Libby lied about his conversations with reporters because he knew that he (and others) had broken the law when they outed Plame
Given that this was an act of treason I think they should all be declared enemy combatants and shipped off to Gitmo.
Sure some of them might be innocent but we just have to take that chance.
I'm sure Rove/Libby's memory would improve with a little bit of water boarding
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Here is what Libby lied about:
...Libby’s “faulty memory” caused him not only to deny where he had learned about Plame — a note produced in the trial showed Vice President Cheney had told him she worked in the Counterproliferation Department of the CIA (where the majority of employees are covert) — but to invent stories saying he HAD leaked to reporters when he hadn’t. He claimed to have been the first to tell Matt Cooper about Wilson’s wife, thereby covering up the fact that Karl Rove had done so. And he shielded Fleischer by falsely claiming to have told the Post’s Glenn Kessler as well, apparently trying to cover for the Post’s October 12, 2003 report that a journalist for the Post (who turned out to be Walter Pincus) had been leaked to — a news story that was found, with key passages underlined, in Libby’s files.
Thus Libby was convicted not just of perjury but of intentionally lying in order to obstruct the investigation, and rightly so.http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/06/14/why-the-trail-of-plame-leads-to-or-through-scooter-libby/
The prosecutor for the case said as much:
Rebutting the defense's assertion that Cheney was not behind the leak, Fitzgerald told jurors, "You know what? [Wells] said something here that we're trying to put a cloud on the vice president. We'll talk straight. There is a cloud over the vice president. He sent Libby off to [meet with former New York Times reporter] Judith Miller at the St. Regis Hotel. At that meeting, the two hour meeting, the defendant talked about the wife [Plame]. We didn't put that cloud there. That cloud remains because the defendant obstructed justice and lied about what happened."
Libby's lies obstructed and killed the investigation.
So what are you saying? Rove leaked the name? Fleischer? Cheney? What is stopping the special prosecutor from questioning those and others? I fail to see how Libby lying about whether he leaked information "killed the investigation." I think that could be true if he was the one who outed this woman.
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Hey Bum,
News Flash - Libby lied about his conversations with reporters because he knew that he (and others) had broken the law when they outed Plame
Given that this was an act of treason I think they should all be declared enemy combatants and shipped off to Gitmo.
Sure some of them might be innocent but we just have to take that chance.
I'm sure Rove/Libby's memory would improve with a little bit of water boarding
Thanks for clearing that up. ::)
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So what are you saying? Rove leaked the name? Fleischer? Cheney? What is stopping the special prosecutor from questioning those and others? I fail to see how Libby lying about whether he leaked information "killed the investigation." I think that could be true if he was the one who outed this woman.
We don't know b/c Libby's lying killed the investigation. Libby lied about his own leaking and then lied about the source of whom provided him with the material information.
Count 1 - Obstruction of Justice: Libby intentionally deceived the grand jury about how he learned, and “disclosed to the media,” information about Valerie Plame Wilson’s employment by the CIA.
Count 2 - Making a False Statement: Libby intentionally gave FBI agents false information about a conversation he had with NBC’s Tim Russert regarding Valerie Plame Wilson, who is married to Joseph Wilson.
Count 4 - Perjury: Libby knowingly provided false testimony in court about a conversation he had with Russert.
Count 5 - Perjury: Libby knowingly provided false testimony in court about his conversation with reporters regarding Valerie Plame Wilson’s CIA employment.
It is impossible to investigate anyone if a prosecutor does not have the power to prosecute for perjury or obstruction. You know that. What good is an investigation if the accused and all materially connected witnesses lie to the prosecutor?
Fitzgerald's predecessors in the case already suspected that a number of officials lied to federal investigators (including Karl Rove). It was on those grounds that Atty. Gen. Ashcroft recused himself from the case and implemented the special prosecutor investigation under Fitzgerald's stewardship. http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0533,waasweb1,66861,2.html
So Fitzgerald was appointed to specifically find liars and obstructionists corrupting the ongoing investigation and you are criticizing him for doing his job.
Whatever the reason Fitzgerald chose for not charging someone with the crime is secondary to the fact that Libby broke the law repeatedly by lying to the feds. Whether someone's charged or convicted of an underlying crime is irrelevant to that conclusion. Libby's lies killed the investigation and it is very likely that someone in the Bush administration got away with a crime thanks to the Code of Silence...Omerta.
If the criminal justice system in this country adopted the principle of your defense of Libby, we could kiss off conspiracy crimes and RICO crimes.
Laws against lying and obstructing justice to insulate others from culpability would be rendered quaint.
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We don't know b/c Libby's lying killed the investigation. Libby lied about his own leaking and then lied about the source of whom provided him with the material information.
Count 1 - Obstruction of Justice: Libby intentionally deceived the grand jury about how he learned, and “disclosed to the media,” information about Valerie Plame Wilson’s employment by the CIA.
Count 2 - Making a False Statement: Libby intentionally gave FBI agents false information about a conversation he had with NBC’s Tim Russert regarding Valerie Plame Wilson, who is married to Joseph Wilson.
Count 4 - Perjury: Libby knowingly provided false testimony in court about a conversation he had with Russert.
Count 5 - Perjury: Libby knowingly provided false testimony in court about his conversation with reporters regarding Valerie Plame Wilson’s CIA employment.
It is impossible to investigate anyone if a prosecutor does not have the power to prosecute for perjury or obstruction. You know that. What good is an investigation if the accused and all materially connected witnesses lie to the prosecutor?
Fitzgerald's predecessors in the case already suspected that a number of officials lied to federal investigators (including Karl Rove). It was on those grounds that Atty. Gen. Ashcroft recused himself from the case and implemented the special prosecutor investigation under Fitzgerald's stewardship. http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0533,waasweb1,66861,2.html
So Fitzgerald was appointed to specifically find liars and obstructionists corrupting the ongoing investigation and you are criticizing him for doing his job.
Whatever the reason Fitzgerald chose for not charging someone with the crime is secondary to the fact that Libby broke the law repeatedly by lying to the feds. Whether someone's charged or convicted of an underlying crime is irrelevant to that conclusion. Libby's lies killed the investigation and it is very likely that someone in the Bush administration got away with a crime thanks to the Code of Silence...Omerta.
If the criminal justice system in this country adopted the principle of your defense of Libby, we could kiss off conspiracy crimes and RICO crimes.
Laws against lying and obstructing justice to insulate others from culpability would be rendered quaint.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be laws prohibiting perjury and obstruction of justice. What I have a problem with is prosecuting people for perjury and obstruction of justice if there was no underlying crime. You think the issue of an underlying crime is irrelevant. I don't. I had the same problem with the Clinton investigation. Clinton lied about having sex with Monica Lewinsky, which was relevant to nothing. I see the same kind of issue here. There is a lot of talk about someone breaking the law, but no evidence that a specific person broke the law.
And no I don't believe a person should be able to lie under oath with impunity.
You keep saying Libby killed the investigation. I don't understand your position. Help me understand this. Are you saying no one else has information about the alleged crime that some unnamed person committed?
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I'm not saying there shouldn't be laws prohibiting perjury and obstruction of justice. What I have a problem with is prosecuting people for perjury and obstruction of justice if there was no underlying crime. You think the issue of an underlying crime is irrelevant. I don't. I had the same problem with the Clinton investigation. Clinton lied about having sex with Monica Lewinsky, which was relevant to nothing. I see the same kind of issue here. There is a lot of talk about someone breaking the law, but no evidence that a specific person broke the law.
And no I don't believe a person should be able to lie under oath with impunity.
You keep saying Libby killed the investigation. I don't understand your position. Help me understand this. Are you saying no one else has information about the alleged crime that some unnamed person committed?
The underlying crime is irrelevant to the finding of Libby's perjury and obstruction. You'd have to ask Mr. Libby why he lied if there was no criminal wrongdoing. Why risk years in prison? You tell me.
The crime was obvious: someone outed an undercover WMD spy in a time of war.
What was not obvious was the criminal: who did it?
The investigation into the criminal's identity was obstructed by Libby's lies. Reread the first indictment:
Count 1 - Obstruction of Justice: Libby intentionally deceived the grand jury about how he learned, and “disclosed to the media,” information about Valerie Plame Wilson’s employment by the CIA.
All subsequent leakers, including Armitage, got their info as a result of Libby's actions. "Ari Fleischer testified during Scooter’s trial that Libby told him over lunch about Plame working for the CIA, and Karl Rove reportedly told a similar story to the grand jury that indicted Libby. Meanwhile, Armitage and ... Dan Bartlett both found out through a State Department memo that was produced in response to questions that Libby had asked a top department official about Wilson’s trip to guy." http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/06/14/why-the-trail-of-plame-leads-to-or-through-scooter-libby/
The question is, who gave Libby the classified info?
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The underlying crime is irrelevant to the finding of Libby's perjury and obstruction. You'd have to ask Mr. Libby why he lied if there was no criminal wrongdoing. Why risk years in prison? You tell me.
The crime was obvious: someone outed an undercover WMD spy in a time of war.
What was not obvious was the criminal: who did it?
The investigation into the criminal's identity was obstructed by Libby's lies. Reread the first indictment:
Count 1 - Obstruction of Justice: Libby intentionally deceived the grand jury about how he learned, and “disclosed to the media,” information about Valerie Plame Wilson’s employment by the CIA.
All subsequent leakers, including Armitage, got their info as a result of Libby's actions. "Ari Fleischer testified during Scooter’s trial that Libby told him over lunch about Plame working for the CIA, and Karl Rove reportedly told a similar story to the grand jury that indicted Libby. Meanwhile, Armitage and ... Dan Bartlett both found out through a State Department memo that was produced in response to questions that Libby had asked a top department official about Wilson’s trip to guy." http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/06/14/why-the-trail-of-plame-leads-to-or-through-scooter-libby/
The question is, who gave Libby the classified info?
That is the $64 question. There was a finite group of people in Libby's circle. What is stopping them from questioning everyone in Libby's inner circle?
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That is the $64 question. There was a finite group of people in Libby's circle. What is stopping them from questioning everyone in Libby's inner circle?
The answer is Cheney - Libby's own notes confirm this and it's one of the main reason why he got popped and the others (specifically Rove slipped through).
Libby lied even though he knew that the prosecutors had his notes and also knew that his (Libby's) testimony was contradicted by other people in the White House and various reporters involved in the case. Libby took the fall because he was most likely promised that he would never see the inside of a jail cell.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/12/AR2005111201085_pf.html
And they had something that law enforcement officials would later describe as their "guidebook" for the opening phase of the investigation: the daily, diary-like notes compiled by I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, then Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, that chronicled crucial events inside the White House in the weeks before the identity of CIA operative Valerie Plame was publicly disclosed.
The investigators had much of this information before they sat down with Libby on Oct. 14, 2003, and first heard from him what prosecutors now allege was a demonstrably false version of what happened. Libby said that, when he told other reporters about the CIA operative and her marriage to Iraq war critic Joseph C. Wilson IV, he believed he had first learned the information from Tim Russert of NBC News and was merely passing along journalistic hearsay. This was an explanation made dubious by Libby's own notes, which showed that he previously had learned about Plame from his boss, Cheney.
In the aftermath of Libby's recent five-count indictment, this curious sequence raises a question of motives that hangs over the investigation: Why would an experienced lawyer and government official such as Libby leave himself so exposed to prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald?
Libby, according to Fitzgerald's indictment, gave a false story to agents and, later, to a grand jury, even though he knew investigators had his notes, and presumably knew that several of his White House colleagues had already provided testimony and documentary evidence that would undercut his own story. And his interviews with the FBI in October and two appearances before the grand jury in March 2004 came at a time when there were increasingly clear signs that some of the reporters with whom Libby discussed Plame could soon be freed to testify -- and provide starkly different and damning accounts to the prosecutor.
To critics, the timing suggests an attempt to obscure Cheney's role, and possibly his legal culpability. The vice president is shown by the indictment to be aware of and interested in Plame and her CIA status long before her cover was blown. Even some White House aides privately wonder whether Libby was seeking to protect Cheney from political embarrassment. One of them noted with resignation, "Obviously, the indictment speaks for itself."
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The answer is Cheney - Libby's own notes confirm this and it's one of the main reason why he got popped and the others (specifically Rove slipped through).
Libby lied even though he knew that the prosecutors had his notes and also knew that his (Libby's) testimony was contradicted by other people in the White House and various reporters involved in the case. Libby took the fall because he was most likely promised that he would never see the inside of a jail cell.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/12/AR2005111201085_pf.html
And they had something that law enforcement officials would later describe as their "guidebook" for the opening phase of the investigation: the daily, diary-like notes compiled by I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, then Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, that chronicled crucial events inside the White House in the weeks before the identity of CIA operative Valerie Plame was publicly disclosed.
The investigators had much of this information before they sat down with Libby on Oct. 14, 2003, and first heard from him what prosecutors now allege was a demonstrably false version of what happened. Libby said that, when he told other reporters about the CIA operative and her marriage to Iraq war critic Joseph C. Wilson IV, he believed he had first learned the information from Tim Russert of NBC News and was merely passing along journalistic hearsay. This was an explanation made dubious by Libby's own notes, which showed that he previously had learned about Plame from his boss, Cheney.
In the aftermath of Libby's recent five-count indictment, this curious sequence raises a question of motives that hangs over the investigation: Why would an experienced lawyer and government official such as Libby leave himself so exposed to prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald?
Libby, according to Fitzgerald's indictment, gave a false story to agents and, later, to a grand jury, even though he knew investigators had his notes, and presumably knew that several of his White House colleagues had already provided testimony and documentary evidence that would undercut his own story. And his interviews with the FBI in October and two appearances before the grand jury in March 2004 came at a time when there were increasingly clear signs that some of the reporters with whom Libby discussed Plame could soon be freed to testify -- and provide starkly different and damning accounts to the prosecutor.
To critics, the timing suggests an attempt to obscure Cheney's role, and possibly his legal culpability. The vice president is shown by the indictment to be aware of and interested in Plame and her CIA status long before her cover was blown. Even some White House aides privately wonder whether Libby was seeking to protect Cheney from political embarrassment. One of them noted with resignation, "Obviously, the indictment speaks for itself."
How dare you bring relevant material facts into this discussion!
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How dare you bring relevant material facts into this discussion!
Don't worry.
It won't make any difference.