Author Topic: Police State - Official Thread  (Read 995461 times)

Agnostic007

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2275 on: June 16, 2015, 10:37:21 AM »
Honestly, it does sound like a good time to catch some zzzs. If it causes them to think more clearly and less dishonestly for the rest of their shifts, I'm all for it.

 :)

I may be too critical... Thanks Jack

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2276 on: June 16, 2015, 10:38:49 AM »
Must be a lot of drunkeness in the BPD, with all the Irish genes in that place. A right comedy, I'm sure.

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2277 on: June 16, 2015, 10:41:38 AM »
:)

I may be too critical... Thanks Jack

Well, you see there's stuff going on out there that you didn't know about (but right in line with your personality, you admitted it. So that's good.)

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2278 on: June 16, 2015, 12:14:40 PM »
It's a very small percentage of people, that require policing.

So when we keep repeating these "all the crooked cops, same place--same time" moments...

Doesn't that mean the above group of people are disproportionately supplying our police forces?

illuminati

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2279 on: June 16, 2015, 01:05:32 PM »
LOL @ either you accept all BS that comes with cops, or you don't get cops at all.

WHy is it so hard to accept we just want cops to follow the same laws we are expected to follow.  Don't eat stolen weed brownies.  Don't shoot people who are no threat to you.  Don't lie about what happened on police reports. 

All this crap about "if you have a problem with bad cops, maybe you'd like to see life without cops..." is pure nonsense.  I'd love to see them apply this same logic to the obama they hate - either you're okay with obama's bullshit trampling of constitution, or you want to live in north korea. Obviously, the only 2 options lol.


sh*t.. I agree with you.. d**m!

The only thing I would question is your ability to determine if the person was a threat or not based on some of your previous posts, but other than that, the concept is solid. 













I don't feel the need for any allegiance to either side.
A bad call / person is a bad call/person regardless of
What job they may or may not do.

How or why is this so Hard to apply to police / politicians etc.

As for 240's ability to determine, I am not wholly convinced of your
Own ability 007. And the worrying part is your a cop.
That is a genuine comment Not a Blanket I hate cops.
I do question your unbiased ness as You are clearly guarded &
Politically correct when it comes to discussing any thing posted
About potential wrong doing by cops.


Agnostic007

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2280 on: June 16, 2015, 01:42:47 PM »
LOL @ either you accept all BS that comes with cops, or you don't get cops at all.

WHy is it so hard to accept we just want cops to follow the same laws we are expected to follow.  Don't eat stolen weed brownies.  Don't shoot people who are no threat to you.  Don't lie about what happened on police reports. 

All this crap about "if you have a problem with bad cops, maybe you'd like to see life without cops..." is pure nonsense.  I'd love to see them apply this same logic to the obama they hate - either you're okay with obama's bullshit trampling of constitution, or you want to live in north korea. Obviously, the only 2 options lol.














I don't feel the need for any allegiance to either side.
A bad call / person is a bad call/person regardless of
What job they may or may not do.

How or why is this so Hard to apply to police / politicians etc.

As for 240's ability to determine, I am not wholly convinced of your
Own ability 007. And the worrying part is your a cop.
That is a genuine comment Not a Blanket I hate cops.
I do question your unbiased ness as You are clearly guarded &
Politically correct when it comes to discussing any thing posted
About potential wrong doing by cops.



I understand your hesitance in taking my word on something pertaining to cops. I have seen occasions when cops will allow their bias as an officer to cloud their own judgment on an issue and I assume I am not immune to it. I tend to look at things from different viewpoints in a variety of categories, politics, religion and moral issues and try to use the "two sides to every story" mentality when reviewing police incidents.
We've seen first hand our differences in conclusions based on the dog/police video where our perceptions and experience affect our opinions. What you call politically correct responses might be due to my experience of drawing a conclusion to soon about something and then finding out later it was wrong. When I'm not sure about something, or the facts and information are limited as often they are from news articles, you may find my answers to be non committal because I don't know for sure about what actually happened. I would hope in cases where it is cut and dried, like the shooting by the officer of the black male "fleeing" that I made my opinion very clear.
I don't mind being called out on something I've said and given a chance to explain. I do mind getting accused of covering up for officers which often seems to be the case. I make it a point to call a duck a duck if there is compelling evidence it's a duck and not a goose. 

illuminati

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2281 on: June 16, 2015, 02:43:26 PM »
I understand your hesitance in taking my word on something pertaining to cops. I have seen occasions when cops will allow their bias as an officer to cloud their own judgment on an issue and I assume I am not immune to it. I tend to look at things from different viewpoints in a variety of categories, politics, religion and moral issues and try to use the "two sides to every story" mentality when reviewing police incidents.
We've seen first hand our differences in conclusions based on the dog/police video where our perceptions and experience affect our opinions. What you call politically correct responses might be due to my experience of drawing a conclusion to soon about something and then finding out later it was wrong. When I'm not sure about something, or the facts and information are limited as often they are from news articles, you may find my answers to be non committal because I don't know for sure about what actually happened. I would hope in cases where it is cut and dried, like the shooting by the officer of the black male "fleeing" that I made my opinion very clear.
I don't mind being called out on something I've said and given a chance to explain. I do mind getting accused of covering up for officers which often seems to be the case. I make it a point to call a duck a duck if there is compelling evidence it's a duck and not a goose. 















Good Reply.

I to have Different view points to many in the categories you mention
& many others.
I try to see the three sides to the story as in the 2 sides & somewhere in
The middle is the truth.
As for drawing a conclusion to soon, we are clearly seeing this happen
In some of the video's/ news stories posted in this thread.
And then get the 'act first think later' excuse / explanation.
For police actions.
And clearly some are very wrong.

As you well know I to call a scumbag a scumbag if they are
Regardless of job, colour, or creed.
 ;)

Agnostic007

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2282 on: June 16, 2015, 02:48:44 PM »













Good Reply.

I to have Different view points to many in the categories you mention
& many others.
I try to see the three sides to the story as in the 2 sides & somewhere in
The middle is the truth.
As for drawing a conclusion to soon, we are clearly seeing this happen
In some of the video's/ news stories posted in this thread.
And then get the 'act first think later' excuse / explanation.
For police actions.
And clearly some are very wrong.

As you well know I to call a scumbag a scumbag if they are
Regardless of job, colour, or creed.
 ;)

Good post

illuminati

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2283 on: June 16, 2015, 03:01:02 PM »
Good post














 :o This Agreeing Business.
What's Happening to us.

It can't continue.
Must be....
Time for my Sleep.
😉 👍

Agnostic007

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2284 on: June 16, 2015, 03:19:34 PM »













 :o This Agreeing Business.
What's Happening to us.

It can't continue.
Must be....
Time for my Sleep.
😉 👍

You just caught me really really drunk.. I'll sober up by tomorrow  :)

Skeletor

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2285 on: June 17, 2015, 03:21:33 PM »
Warning: Federal Court Rules that 2nd Amendment Right is Now a Reason for Cops to Detain You

Grand Rapids, Mich. – In a stunning violation of 2nd Amendment rights, the U.S. District Court of Western Michigan ruled police have the legal authority to detain individuals that choose to exercise their constitutional right to open carry a firearm. Open Carry is also specifically allowed under Michigan law.

The ruling means that people in Michigan who choose to exercise this constitutional right are now subject to being stopped by law enforcement for engaging in a completely lawful activity.

Officers detained Johann Deffert in early 2013. He was walking down the sidewalk with a holstered FNP-45 pistol, after receiving a 9-1-1 call from a woman who spotted Deffert with the open carried, but holstered, handgun on his person.

The dispatcher initially informed the caller that Michigan is an open carry state. However, the woman subsequently explained that she found Deffert’s presence alarming, due in part to his wearing of camouflage, although she admitted that he wasn’t threatening anyone. Somehow the dispatcher made the decision that someone engaging in a completely legal activity, as earlier in the call noted by the dispatcher, should now be inspected by police, due to caller saying they found wearing camo disturbing.

The absurdity in logic; that someone wearing camo takes the situation from being a completely legal situation not to be interfered with, and raises it to a level of needing police assistance, shows the extreme arbitrary nature of the entire situation.



The incident was captured on responding officer Moe Williams’ dash cam, and lasted 14 minutes. Williams had indicated he believed that perhaps Deffert was suffering from some type of mental illness, as he seemed to be “talking to nobody” when the officer arrived on scene. Upon further investigation, Deffert was revealed to have been happily singing the song “Hakuna Matata” from the Disney movie “The Lion King” while strolling down the sidewalk.

The video shows the officer command Deffert to lay face down on the ground upon arrival on the scene. Deffert was treated as if he were a criminal that needed to prove he was not doing anything wrong, as the officer detained him while running a mental and criminal background check. Deffert was polite and respectful throughout the encounter, but strongly asserted his rights regarding open carry laws in the state of Michigan.

Remember, all of this transpired despite Deffert’s total compliance with Michigan law, in respect to open carry of a firearm. Eventually, Deffert was released, as he had violated no laws, done nothing wrong, and there was no legitimate reason to hold him. Shortly after the incident, in what seemed like a vindication for Deffert at the time, Grand Rapids Police Sgt. Steve LaBreque recommended to Moe’s commanding officer, that Moe “would benefit from some additional training in handling ‘open carry’ issues.”

Several months later Deffert filed a federal lawsuit alleging his constitutional rights were violated and that he was assaulted and falsely imprisoned. The legality of open carry in the Michigan was never in question, only if law enforcement had the authority to detain an individual simply because they were open carrying a firearm, according to court records.

In the most convoluted of logic, U.S. District Judge Janet Neff claimed that officers do have such authority. Neff wrote that the officers were “justified in following up on the 9-1-1 call and using swift action to determine whether [Deffert’s] behavior gave rise to a need to protect or preserve life … in the neighborhood.”

When a call to 9-1-1 is made in regard to a completely legal activity, the police should not even be dispatched. If in fact the police needed to “determine whether [Deffert’s] behavior gave rise to a need to protect or preserve life … in the neighborhood,” they need not impeded a citizen from going about their legitimate and legal business,” as Neff asserts, but rather could passively watch from a distance to determine if there is any reasonable suspicion of criminal activity afoot, and if so act accordingly.

The most glaring problem with Neff’s logic, is that there is no reason for police to ever assess someones behavior who is simply engaging in constitutionally protected and lawful activity, regardless if another citizens takes issue with the activity. If the activity fails to rise to the level of criminality, then police have no business getting investigating or getting involved. The police, as public servants, aren’t paid to investigate non-crimes.

The idea that someone needs to prove their innocence for engaging in a constitutionally protected activity is contrary to everything America teaches its children to believe about liberty and freedom.

The case will most likely be appealed to the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit. The National Rifle Association and others have offered to assist in the appeal.

It will be interesting to see what open carry advocates across the nation, and specifically those in Texas, a hotbed of open carry activism, think about this ruling; and how they would respond if this were to become the standard of law in their state.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/federal-court-rules-police-detain-individuals-open-carrying-firearms

Agnostic007

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2286 on: June 18, 2015, 08:23:22 AM »
So the question is, what are police to do when a  citizen calls in they are alarmed about a man dressed in camo with a gun on his hip walking down a city street? That's part of the problem with the open carry law. The police are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they don't respond and it is a nutcase, people scream.. if they do respond.. people scream. The article was obviously written by an anti police blogger just based on the wording. 

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2287 on: June 18, 2015, 10:00:13 AM »
So the question is, what are police to do when a  citizen calls in they are alarmed about a man dressed in camo with a gun on his hip walking down a city street? That's part of the problem with the open carry law. The police are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they don't respond and it is a nutcase, people scream.. if they do respond.. people scream. The article was obviously written by an anti police blogger just based on the wording. 

Is he minding his own business?

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2288 on: June 18, 2015, 10:05:00 AM »
Is he minding his own business?

...because if they can establish that, then I'd suggest they learn something from him.

avxo

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2289 on: June 18, 2015, 10:26:21 AM »
So the question is, what are police to do when a  citizen calls in they are alarmed about a man dressed in camo with a gun on his hip walking down a city street? That's part of the problem with the open carry law. The police are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they don't respond and it is a nutcase, people scream.. if they do respond.. people scream. The article was obviously written by an anti police blogger just based on the wording. 

Yeah... "anti-police blogger"... how about they say: "Sir [or Ma'am], it is legal to openly carry in [insert State here]. Is the person in question threatening anyone with the weapon or acting in a way that poses imminent danger?" If the answer is no, then simply don't stop, detain or otherwise harass the person. Nothing in the decision stops the police from responding, by the way; they can respond and observe the person as long as they want and if they have articulable reasonable suspicion that a crime is in progress or about to be committed then they can stop that person.

It's really simple: you are a cop, not a monarch. You do not get to stop people just because you feel like stopping them or someone else feels that you should stop them. You operate within a framework that we, as a society, require you to operate under. If you don't like that, that's too bad.

Agnostic007

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2290 on: June 18, 2015, 10:36:42 AM »
Yeah... "anti-police blogger"... how about they say: "Sir [or Ma'am], it is legal to openly carry in [insert State here]. Is the person in question threatening anyone with the weapon or acting in a way that poses imminent danger?" If the answer is no, then simply don't stop, detain or otherwise harass the person. Nothing in the decision stops the police from responding, by the way; they can respond and observe the person as long as they want and if they have articulable reasonable suspicion that a crime is in progress or about to be committed then they can stop that person.

It's really simple: you are a cop, not a monarch. You do not get to stop people just because you feel like stopping them or someone else feels that you should stop them. You operate within a framework that we, as a society, require you to operate under. If you don't like that, that's too bad.

If I had my way, we wouldn't stop anyone. It's a hassle. We're not given the option sometimes. The need/desire to carry a weapon in public in the open is relatively new in the last few years (disregarding the cowboy days). Until the shooting starts, it's difficult to tell the difference between a guy wanting to exercise his 2nd amendment right and a nut case about to open a can of whoop ass on a neighborhood/church/theater etc. I agree with you that the response should fit the circumstances, however it is a tough spot to be in dealing with a person with a gun. Either he is fine, and just exercising his right to carry and all is good or he is a nutcase that is dangerous. I also agree with you about operating under the law. And whether I think the law is a mistake or not, it's the law. I would recommend police stand down on challenging anyone carrying a weapon in a state where it is legal until they prove they are a danger by opening fire. That way we don't violate their rights, and it will either show the law was a mistake and get corrected, or the law was a good move and there isn't an issue.           

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2291 on: June 18, 2015, 11:21:43 AM »
If I had my way, we wouldn't stop anyone. It's a hassle. We're not given the option sometimes. The need/desire to carry a weapon in public in the open is relatively new in the last few years (disregarding the cowboy days). Until the shooting starts, it's difficult to tell the difference between a guy wanting to exercise his 2nd amendment right and a nut case about to open a can of whoop ass on a neighborhood/church/theater etc. I agree with you that the response should fit the circumstances, however it is a tough spot to be in dealing with a person with a gun. Either he is fine, and just exercising his right to carry and all is good or he is a nutcase that is dangerous. I also agree with you about operating under the law. And whether I think the law is a mistake or not, it's the law. I would recommend police stand down on challenging anyone's carrying a weapon in a state where it is legal until they prove they are a danger by opening fire. That way we don't violate their rights, and it will either show the law was a mistake and get corrected, or the law was a good move and there isn't an issue.          

...by way of stories media chooses for its manipulative, collusive, conniving pinhole, of course.

Agnostic007

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2292 on: June 18, 2015, 11:50:59 AM »
...by way of stories media chooses for its manipulative, collusive, conniving pinhole, of course.

Not a bad point..

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2293 on: June 18, 2015, 12:10:57 PM »
Not a bad point..

How great it would be if we couldn't make points like that so easily.

But we're actually that screwed up.

Skeletor

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2294 on: June 21, 2015, 12:52:33 PM »
Another article obviously written by an "anti-police blogger"..
Kill a man? No, we're talking about brave officers here so it's merely "staff failure and a systematic breakdown of jail operations". The heroic officers were "changing the logs after Farris was found dead to look as if they performed required checks". Did anyone go to prison? No, officers don't go to prison (so they'd dehydrate to death), they're just "sorry": one person got a 30 day suspension without pay, another is on leave and two others just decided to resign.


Island County sheriff apologizes for jail dehydration death

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20150618/NEWS01/150619222/Island-County-sheriff-apologizes-for-jail-dehydration-death

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20150619/NEWS01/150629944

illuminati

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2295 on: June 21, 2015, 03:35:06 PM »
Another article obviously written by an "anti-police blogger"..
Kill a man? No, we're talking about brave officers here so it's merely "staff failure and a systematic breakdown of jail operations". The heroic officers were "changing the logs after Farris was found dead to look as if they performed required checks". Did anyone go to prison? No, officers don't go to prison (so they'd dehydrate to death), they're just "sorry": one person got a 30 day suspension without pay, another is on leave and two others just decided to resign.


Island County sheriff apologizes for jail dehydration death

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20150618/NEWS01/150619222/Island-County-sheriff-apologizes-for-jail-dehydration-death

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20150619/NEWS01/150629944














They said Sorry.
Plus 2 resigned, 1 on leave, & 1 30 day suspension.
 :o :o
What other type of Harsh Punishment Could they Get,
Or Would you Expect.
They were in Fear of Their Lives.
All They want to do is Go Home To Wife & Kids & Dunkin Doughnuts.

It is Exactly these type of Excessive Punishment That is Now so
Lacking in General Society.
 ::)

Oh Brother another case of Cop Hating / Bashing.
I do Suppose.!!!!!

Agnostic007

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2296 on: June 22, 2015, 08:11:20 AM »
Another article obviously written by an "anti-police blogger"..
Kill a man? No, we're talking about brave officers here so it's merely "staff failure and a systematic breakdown of jail operations". The heroic officers were "changing the logs after Farris was found dead to look as if they performed required checks". Did anyone go to prison? No, officers don't go to prison (so they'd dehydrate to death), they're just "sorry": one person got a 30 day suspension without pay, another is on leave and two others just decided to resign.


Island County sheriff apologizes for jail dehydration death

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20150618/NEWS01/150619222/Island-County-sheriff-apologizes-for-jail-dehydration-death

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20150619/NEWS01/150629944


I read the article. It's not over. " The investigation has been provided to prosecutors for review, Brown said Thursday."  The Department does their thing, fire, terminate, suspend which is administrative. The criminal side does their thing. In my opinion, this would/should be prosecuted as negligent manslaughter. If nothing happens with this case I'll eat my hat, but to declare at this point nothing is going to happen is premature. There is a process. 

240 is Back

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2297 on: June 22, 2015, 08:47:59 AM »

I read the article. It's not over. " The investigation has been provided to prosecutors for review, Brown said Thursday."  The Department does their thing, fire, terminate, suspend which is administrative. The criminal side does their thing. In my opinion, this would/should be prosecuted as negligent manslaughter. If nothing happens with this case I'll eat my hat, but to declare at this point nothing is going to happen is premature. There is a process. 

Let an average citizen "accidentally" lock a cop in his garage for a week and let him die of dehydration.  Suddenly it's a capital murder case.  This will be a suspension at best?

Agnostic007

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2298 on: June 22, 2015, 09:04:10 AM »
Let an average citizen "accidentally" lock a cop in his garage for a week and let him die of dehydration.  Suddenly it's a capital murder case.  This will be a suspension at best?

Considering you've been wrong so many times I lost track, (Hernandez) we'll just have to wait and see. An average cop locked in a garage is kidnapping. This was incarceration, so a subtle difference. If they don't get any criminal charges out of it I'll be surprised. Certainly deserve it. We'll see

240 is Back

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #2299 on: June 22, 2015, 09:25:43 AM »
An average cop locked in a garage is kidnapping. This was incarceration, so a subtle difference

When cops imprison someone, they remove their ability to feed/drink themselves.  They now have life/death power over the person.  A casual mistake with water access can/may have killed a person. 

If anything, it's WORSE because cops have training and sworn duty and plenty of support to ensure the prisoner gets access to water.  THe cop apologized.  Tough to defend when he admits fault there.