Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Army of One on July 21, 2013, 11:09:58 AM
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I personally built one just because I didn't want the hassle of needles etc but with the net being the way it is it is far easier now.As you guys know when you are muscular, you get questions and one of the main ones I get from young guys is " should I build a natural base first or just jump on a cycle?" .I always say natural base just so Im no responsible for some idiot doing something stupid but is a natural base really needed?
My main point is say a guy is 140, his max weight naturally @ 9% bodyfat is 195, could he not just quickly juice up to 195-200 and then with good pct and carrying on with good nutrition, training and rest keep himself around 195 for a good 20 years or more naturally?I mean if he can do this in a year rather then 4 naturally and still keep his gains then why not?I never get a definitive answer for guys who juiced for all gains, since so many just quit training once back to natural, so they may have lost the gains natural or not.And this is just about keeping the muscle once off cycle, sides are reduced with proper pct and proper training, nutrition and rest are known and taken by the user.
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I think the importance of natural training is mostly wrt learning how to train and eat properly. That can take a while...people who juice without any prior experience don't see the difference between "on" or "off" to stay motivated to train regardless.
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Ye
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I think the importance of natural training is mostly wrt learning how to train and eat properly. That can take a while...people who juice without any prior experience don't see the difference between "on" or "off" to stay motivated to train regardless.
pretty much this
so not neccesarily for a 'natural foundation blabla', but just take some time to learn your shit
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I think the importance of natural training is mostly wrt learning how to train and eat properly. That can take a while...people who juice without any prior experience don't see the difference between "on" or "off" to stay motivated to train regardless.
But say they were previously athletes, are familiar with methods of training and importance of protein intake and eating slightly above maintenance?not really interested in the human failings , rather if those gains are keepable assuming the user gets to his natural limit and not too far above and assuming the user is spot on with training and nutrition after cycle.
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I think natural base will only matter later on in life...Most won't be able to stay geared up all the time and when these guys come off and sometimes for good, without the natural base, they will look untrained as if they never stepped in a gym in their life...
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But say they were previously athletes, are familiar with methods of training and importance of protein intake and eating slightly above maintenance?not really interested in the human failings , rather if those gains are keepable assuming the user gets to his natural limit and not too far above and assuming the user is spot on with training and nutrition after cycle.
If I could go back in time I would've used a lot sooner. Gear will take you to the "natural limit" a lot faster. Let's face it, that limit is not anything impressive for most people.
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I think the importance of natural training is mostly wrt learning how to train and eat properly. That can take a while...people who juice without any prior experience don't see the difference between "on" or "off" to stay motivated to train regardless.
x2
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If I could go back in time I would've used a lot sooner. Gear will take you to the "natural limit" a lot faster. Let's face it, that limit is not anything impressive for most people.
yeah, most of the top guys in the game were running something early. i know we always here "devvelop your foundation first" but the reality seems to be the opposite.
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yeah, most of the top guys in the game were running something early. i know we always here "devvelop your foundation first" but the reality seems to be the opposite.
Yeah and you can find pics of these guys at 12 already taking half naked pics hitting poses. This is what they wanted to do since very early on.
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No.
I believe you need strength/athletic base overall, be somewhat flexible and strong. Everyone I know (and I know plenty) who lacked that failed miserably at building any physique, drugs or not.
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No.
I believe you need strength/athletic base overall, be somewhat flexible and strong. Everyone I know (and I know plenty) who lacked that failed miserably at building any physique, drugs or not.
Yeah you have to be the type that enjoys physical activity to begin with I'd say. But juice or no juice weight training and a good diet will enhance everyone's strength and body composition. In the beginning, personal improvements is what should motivate people not what someone else lifts or what they look like.
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well, with AAS, everything you do WORKS.
you grow when you train wrong.
you grow eating the wrong food.
you get lean eating the wrong food.
you grow when you train 7 days a week.
.... now, if you've spent a few years training, and figure out how to train, grow, and get lean without drugs, it's much easier to train, grow, and get lean WITH DRUGS.
that being said.... take a guy who'd gone from 165-205 with no drugs over 4 years, then after 2 years of drugs goes to 230, and take a guy who'd gone from 165 to 230 in 6 years being on drugs the entire time... if they both go off, and both quit training, the first guy will probably go back to 195, and the 2nd guy will probably go back to 165.
now, if they quit training and just maintain hrt test doses, they'll probably maintain 205 and 185 respectively.
not always the case with 100% of ppl 100% of the time, but in general.
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well, with AAS, everything you do WORKS.
you grow when you train wrong.
you grow eating the wrong food.
you get lean eating the wrong food.
you grow when you train 7 days a week.
.... now, if you've spent a few years training, and figure out how to train, grow, and get lean without drugs, it's much easier to train, grow, and get lean WITH DRUGS.
that being said.... take a guy who'd gone from 165-205 with no drugs over 4 years, then after 2 years of drugs goes to 230, and take a guy who'd gone from 165 to 230 in 6 years being on drugs the entire time... if they both go off, and both quit training, the first guy will probably go back to 195, and the 2nd guy will probably go back to 165.
now, if they quit training and just maintain hrt test doses, they'll probably maintain 205 and 185 respectively.
not always the case with 100% of ppl 100% of the time, but in general.
Great post!
Build a base and a few years experience to learn your body. I think it takes 5 years to do this adequately.
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well, with AAS, everything you do WORKS.
you grow when you train wrong.
you grow eating the wrong food.
you get lean eating the wrong food.
you grow when you train 7 days a week.
I don't know about this one....seen plenty getting nothing but side effects or nothing at all.
that being said.... take a guy who'd gone from 165-205 with no drugs over 4 years, then after 2 years of drugs goes to 230, and take a guy who'd gone from 165 to 230 in 6 years being on drugs the entire time... if they both go off, and both quit training, the first guy will probably go back to 195, and the 2nd guy will probably go back to 165.
I'd say it depends on the person's genetics on how much he can retain if they stop everything. But then again, that's another big "probably".
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Have spent 15 years trying to build a natural base :-\
Now probably stuck being natural for life (ffs) cant say whether or not its been worth it.
Seen a couple of mates hop on the gear having never touched a weight beforehand. Needless to say it was a waste of time.
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A person should workout seriously for a few years before taking steroids anyway. Then, it becomes how much do you want to take, and how big do you want to get. It is all synthetic in the end.
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I think natural base will only matter later on in life...Most won't be able to stay geared up all the time and when these guys come off and sometimes for good, without the natural base, they will look untrained as if they never stepped in a gym in their life...
;)
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You can always tell the guys who developed a base when they finally come off as opposed to the guys who started using on day one.
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speaking for my self, i did a good few year before going on, when im off for a long period lowest weight ive been with a tight waist is 15.7 st, i dont think this would be possible if id jumped straight on, as ive freinds who have literally shrunk down to nothing, one of them could bench 5 plates also.....
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You can always tell the guys who developed a base when they finally come off as opposed to the guys who started using on day one.
But how exactly can you tell?
There's people who respond amazingly to gear. So if and when they shrink down, how can you be sure that's not the way they'd look like had they just trained naturally all their lives.
We've all seen the pics of tp and mustafa mohammed off juice and they look like aids patients. But these guys went to the extreme and fucked their health up for good.
And who comes off these days anyways...hrt seems what most people are doing.
Seems like you can juice on higher doses when young since the body is able to tolerate it better and maintain on very little as you age. I wish I hadn't wasted so much time naturally...fuck!
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make no mistakes, after 3 or 4 years natty,you are treading water for the rest of your life muscle mass wise.. u may get a little stronger and gain a teeny bit here n there, but thats the way the cookie crumbles
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make no mistakes, after 3 or 4 years natty,you are treading water for the rest of your life muscle mass wise.. u may get a little stronger and gain a teeny bit here n there, but thats the way the cookie crumbles
That seems pretty realistic.
What non users fail to realize that even with gear it takes time to build real muscle. They read "first cycle" experiences from people saying they put over 20 pounds thinking that its all muscle. ;D
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i used to laugh like fuck at those types.... blow up huge, then start talking about doing a show,,, a few weeks down the line there looking like they have a wasting disease... needless to say, talk of competing goes out the window
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i used to laugh like fuck at those types.... blow up huge, then start talking about doing a show,,, a few weeks down the line there looking like they have a wasting disease... needless to say, talk of competing goes out the window
Like the lifetime naturals thinking they're a cycle or two away from the olympia stage. ;D
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Like the lifetime naturals thinking they're a cycle or two away from the olympia stage. ;D
yes, they clearly are delusional.............. altho i remember my 1st ever dbol, took 2 before bed and couldnt wait to get up the next day, i was dissapoint :'(
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I went from 147 to 175 without ever touching any gear! A good two years of hard training and eating!
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make no mistakes, after 3 or 4 years natty,you are treading water for the rest of your life muscle mass wise.. u may get a little stronger and gain a teeny bit here n there, but thats the way the cookie crumbles
Mee Depends. I started fifteen and gained the latter 3-4 years
Natural gains are very slow but not every is maxed out after 4 years. You need to learn what you respond to and just that can take some time.
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I went from 147 to 175 without ever touching any gear! A good two years of hard training and eating!
Similar to me (not trying to one up you bro). Went from 145lbs at 5'10 to 195lbs in my first 5 years, completely drug free. (Bodyfat the the end was 10%).
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Similar to me (not trying to one up you bro). Went from 145lbs at 5'10 to 195lbs in my first 5 years, completely drug free. (Bodyfat the the end was 10%).
Thats because no man is naturally 145 pounds. It was probably a combination of late puberty plus the training.
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No one is saying you can't make some gains naturally. It makes sense that you'd exhaust all means naturally before taking the next step. Just as you would gradually work your way up in doses if you wanna continue to grow. Someone smart would try to get as much as you can with as little as possible before upping the dose. Now if someone has high aspirations( I would ask myself why) in bbing than it would make sense to go another route. But for us just trying to look a little better you might be satisfied with something low doses(or nothing) might give you.
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No one is saying you can't make some gains naturally. It makes sense that you'd exhaust all means naturally before taking the next step. Just as you would gradually work your way up in doses if you wanna continue to grow. Someone smart would try to get as much as you can with as little as possible before upping the dose. Now if someone has high aspirations( I would ask myself why) in bbing than it would make sense to go another route. But for us just trying to look a little better you might be satisfied with something low doses(or nothing) might give you.
Meltdown.
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natural base gives you time to learn how to train, 'mind muscle connection' etc.. how to eat to grow and how to eat to get lean, it gives you discipline and work ethic
i trained naturally for 4-5 years, got to 200lbs, then after playing around with dbols followed by 2 proper cycles was 250 off season, no way would i have reached 250 in that time had i started from day one
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Mee Depends. I started fifteen and gained the latter 3-4 years
Natural gains are very slow but not every is maxed out after 4 years. You need to learn what you respond to and just that can take some time.
as has been said, you were growing into a man anyway......... no one gains mass after initial growth period, this shit about adding so many lbs each year natty are daydreams of the delusional
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super solid exerxcise form perhaps
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maximising anabolic windows and dc fascia stretching techniques, maybe you will have a chance
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Theoretically, if you have the idea of becoming the best competitive bb you can be, and have
the genetics (which you only know for sure in retrospect, unfortunately) there almost no TIME
to be training clean for years and years. Basically almost all the best bodybuilders in history started juicing in their teens. If you wait until say 21 or 25 you are at a disadvatage compared to those who have already been on for a few years. You should already be gunning for you pro card at that age... ideally.
Also, I believe the younger you start the more effective the gear is.
Think of your favorite bb's... chances are they started in their mid teens... or late teens anyhow.
Shit Arnold started at 13 or 15, depending on who you believe.
The point made by some about having any type athletic background before starting juicing is good. Those don't need much bodybuilding specific foundation building time. They know how to exert themselves etc.
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hel, id even say after 1 year of knowing what ones doing, diet and train properly(you do know what i mean,the ignorant dont),after 1 year dieted down and 4 years dieted down, natty will look within 2% difference.
maxed out 95% after 1 random year and 1 year of knowing what theyre doing.
but to have a base is important hell yes
i was giving a bit leeway, but i pretty much agree with that,,, if you took a matured male, 20 odd, gave him a bit coaching , he would more than likey be maxed out at a year
for an example,all those with delusions ask your self this, how much have your arms realy grew since your initial growth phase, with out drugs? im not talking spongy fat arms either, defined veiny arms??? id bet not alot if any at all.....
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i was giving a bit leeway, but i pretty much agree with that,,, if you took a matured male, 20 odd, gave him a bit coaching , he would more than likey be maxed out at a year
for an example,all those with delusions ask your self this, how much have your arms realy grew since your initial growth phase, with out drugs? im not talking spongy fat arms either, defined veiny arms??? id bet not alot if any at all.....
Absolutely agree.
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well, from personal experience I went from 90lbs to 120lbs after a year, 120 to 150lbs the second year, and 150 to 180 the third (also went from 5'7" to 5'11" in that time). I was a skinny kid (as if you can gather from my 90lb starting point. lol), and it's not like it was puberty weight, since I'd already sounded like a white barry white and was shaving once a week at 14.
arms weren't huge, but had good bicep peak and lateral head tricep separation (I did lack the long head mass I later developed), and my v-taper was there and my delts were already round and popping. so I knew how to make certain things grow and how to explain it to others. and I knew early on (from the time I was in the 3rd grade) that I wanted to be a professional bodybuilder (how's that for a pipe-dream eh?. haha), so i'd better learn how to do things RIGHT early, before I used steroids (which Id commited to doing early on).
bodybuilding, like any other endeavor, if you want to be successful at it, requires planning, goals, and ways to measure progress. I knew at the very least, if I never turned pro, or competed at all, i'd most likely still be making my living in the 'fitness' industry & training others. so I knew i'd better be a sponge early on, and absorb everything I could. lucky for me, I don't have a photographic memory, I have a "videographic-memory" and I remember EVERYTHING I read, hear, and see. So I can recall everything I learned about training, nutrition, chemistry, pharmacology, ect... and after a while you start to recognize contradictions in other ppl's theories and methods (HIT vs volume vs Milos vs Hany vs Duchaine vs Bachelodor vs Pat Arnold vs palumbo vs o'reagan vs trevor smith vs john brown vs ect... ect... ect... ) you realize they all work, but none work all the time. and you form your own theories and figure out what works for you, and learn when to change things up, and for how long, and to what extent, ect...
if you don't "think" about training, and why you're doing what you're doing, you'll have a very short bodybuilding 'career'. because eventually, with or without steroids, something is gonna stop working the way it used to.
I feel sorry (almost.. haha) for guys with supurb genetics, because everything works. look at flex, Ronnie, dex, to name a few pro's, but there are thousands of guys all over the country with similar genes.. everything they do works. try to have flex explain to an intermediate bber how to grow his stubborn arms, have Ronnie explain how to train chest, dex how to train back, mattarrazzo how to train calves, demayo how to train quads. they'll do a little of this and a little of that and 'poof!" muscle's grow! next week they do something else and 'poof!' muscles grow again... you think they understand why? or understand how to help somebody else grow? I doubt it, seriously. that's why they have trainers telling them what to do. lol.. what to eat.. what drugs to take, ect...
I think it's more important, at least equally important, (to building a natural base) for a guy to head to a thrift store and pick up some old copy's of endocrinology and pathology textbooks and try to understand how their body actually works before they use steroids, thyroid, insulin, growth hormone, anti aromatase, pde5s, anti-5a, or stimulants.
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Didn't Dexter Jackson compete as a lightweight as an adult? And Lee Lair Priest has been juiced to the gills since he was like 12 or something...Naturally these two guys would be tipping the scales at about 140 pounds...lol
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Any studies posted on this ???
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The only point of natural training is to be healthier and live longer than most people if you also eat healthy at the same time. It is a fact people who exercize not being extremists and who eat well simply make their bodies last longer. As simple as that.
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Any studies posted on this ???
You never struck me as the "studying" kind of feller.
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I think most bb:s were skinny guys to begin with. Look at mass monsters even Like Fux, Nasser and Dorian. They were not big guys, but when they started training and doing bb right. They blew up fast! Fux said something like if you don't gain 30 kg (66-70 lbs) in one year you don't have what it takes to turn pro.
I was really skinny when I started going to the gym. 59 kg at 5.10, thats what 132? I met van_bilderass or what he calls himself on this board and he was like "dude you should stop hitting the pec deck and just focus on bench, deads and squats. Life heavy as you can with good form and get strong and eat bro. He taught me how to do everything and I think I could bench about 60 kg as a beginner (145?) and he told me that he could train me for three months natural and I would be able to bench 100kg (225). He had me on a program where I benched three times a week doing 10 sets of 1 rep, resting as long as I neede to finish another set. Every workout he added 2.5kg to the bar. I did some complementary work to the bench such as DB-press one arm holding the rack, and the other side pressing. Dips and some rotator work. After 3 months i did not do 100kg..I did 110 for 2. He knows his shit. I did not have a strong built or anything to begin with, but I could and still can train hard. He trained another guy who won the nationals at 19 that had Amazing genes. He trined him basic and hard. Van offcurse dig roids like we all do. But he could bench 400 pounds on just clenbuteroleti. He taught me how to dEadliFt and I did 440 lbs or 200kg at 16 y/o. He also trained Chris Nober to place third in Light heavyweight AT EUROPEAN CHAMPIONERIOTI a month or so ago...I have'nt trained in 6 months, not donr gear for a few years but I got a solid base going from that heavy basic lifting. I was 225lbs or 100kg clean before la route des roides at 15%, BUT WITH THEM i GOT UP TO 120KG AT 15% AND LATER DOWN TO 105KG AT 8% (i TRAINED WITH DOZ THEN THOUGH). tHANKS vAN_BILDER TRAINER OF NATURSL BORN JUICERS.
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No. Myth perp by body builders
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I personally built one just because I didn't want the hassle of needles etc but with the net being the way it is it is far easier now.As you guys know when you are muscular, you get questions and one of the main ones I get from young guys is " should I build a natural base first or just jump on a cycle?" .I always say natural base just so Im no responsible for some idiot doing something stupid but is a natural base really needed?
My main point is say a guy is 140, his max weight naturally @ 9% bodyfat is 195, could he not just quickly juice up to 195-200 and then with good pct and carrying on with good nutrition, training and rest keep himself around 195 for a good 20 years or more naturally?I mean if he can do this in a year rather then 4 naturally and still keep his gains then why not?I never get a definitive answer for guys who juiced for all gains, since so many just quit training once back to natural, so they may have lost the gains natural or not.And this is just about keeping the muscle once off cycle, sides are reduced with proper pct and proper training, nutrition and rest are known and taken by the user.
Natural is always better broski. Drugs have sides no matter what people say.
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The only point of natural training is to be healthier and live longer than most people if you also eat healthy at the same time. It is a fact people who exercize not being extremists and who eat well simply make their bodies last longer. As simple as that.
Pretty good point.
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You never struck me as the "studying" kind of feller.
I find this particular topic interesting.
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Any studies posted on this ???
This is it, I dont think there is, and since 95% of people irl lie about their use and when they started, it's extremely hard to call this bioscience or not.
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I find this particular topic interesting.
:D Carry on
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This is it, I dont think there is, and since 95% of people irl lie about their use and when they started, it's extremely hard to call this bioscience or not.
I just ask cause it seems most people in this thread are advocating juicing either right away or with very little experience.
Would be cool to see a long term study.
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surew you did.
but was it muscle that you gained
Of course there was some fat. I competed after 3 years of serious training at a bodyweight of 165! The only cycles I did was 8 weeks of Anavar 20 milligrams! For the show I did 25 Milligrams of D-bol and 1cc of deca a week!
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i wasted all my years of unrelenting super hard training on "naturalness"
i could have been a beast :-[
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Juicing before you build a natural base is pointless if you want to have any muscle after you go off!
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Juicing before you build a natural base is pointless if you want to have any muscle after you go off!
:D
good one
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this doesnt mean they havent built a foundation,it just means they sarte competiting soon
If Lee's mom had Lee juiced to the gills at 12 or 13 years old and he's never been off, just when was that foundation built?
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what long term study you want?go to any fitness gym and see the skninny fats or the obese permabulkers who look same year round year in year out ever since in year training.
theres your study.
i trained naturaly for longer than maxed out too before i ever touched anything, i can tell.
a natural will after a year only ever gain muscle if the gains 4fold the fat along with that
its just not happening, nobody is so special to make wonders happen
So you think juicing year after year your body will continually change and you will always look different? These skinny/fat people you talk about look the same because they lack the drive to push themselves.
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probably already said,I believe that natural limit really means how much muscle a natural can carry while staying very lean. A natural 6 foot tall can eat and train his way up to a very smooth 230 - 250 pounds but unless drugs are used attempts to get ripped will wind up with him being 10 to 20pounds heavier than he started and still not exactly ripped.
Despite the fact that at 250 he would have had a shitload of more muscle than when he started it will vanish into thin air when getting lean.
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These skinny/fat people you talk about look the same because they lack the drive to push themselves.
yep
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Yes. Muscle is hard to build no matter what so you may as well take all you can naturally. The bigger you are when you start gear the more you explode.
As already said, after 3 years of committed natural training you are 98-9% of your potential for muscle.
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If one does not have a good natural base they will never be able to build a dense quality physique, once off all drugs they will return to a worse than state before they started lifting
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If one does not have a good natural base they will never be able to build a dense quality physique, once off all drugs they will return to a worse than state before they started lifting
True. You going to win the LA next Year?
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IMHO, a natural base is needed for the average gym rat.
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The only point of natural training is to be healthier and live longer than most people if you also eat healthy at the same time. It is a fact people who exercize not being extremists and who eat well simply make their bodies last longer. As simple as that.
you are still built like a twink tho despite lifting weight relentlessly for years upon years
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coleman is like 50 and still juicing grams at peak health
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hm, ok that post was bit selective by me, sorry for that.
ofc they look same bc they dont even know what theyre doing and theyre far from pushing themselves.
but lets say like this, for bodybuilding purpose, after a year of proper diet(not cutting or bulkikng just kinda ok-ish diet)and productive training, most of the size gains will be there and its best to concentrate on leanness from there on.
now, for strenght perspective, a natural can go far, and wont be maxed out within a year on that, but those gains will always comes with too much bodyfat, but thats no problem for those who dont mind.
but dieted down, these both will look pretty much the same, even 5 years later.
its not too bad, even steroid users have to draw a line somewhere, cant run gramm forever, and then when they shrink they cant mentaly take it and stop to never be heard of or seen near any gym.
a juicer who wants to live long will have,shredded vs shredded, maybe some 10-20lbs of pure muscle over a natty, and thats it, it dont sound like much but its remarkable difference visually.
Do you really believe that after 1 year of training a natural has maxed (or closely maxed) his muscle mass?
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Do you really believe that after 1 year of training a natural has maxed (or closely maxed) his muscle mass?
From my experience I would say no but that's only cause I wasted a lot of time doing the bulk/cut thing. Only added to my delusions... :(
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most of the guys that i know that jumped on gear as soon as they started training get ligament injuries
natural training helps build ligament strength
i believe you can max out in about two years
as gal says the only way to get bigger after that is to get a little bit fatter too
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If you want to build muscles just lift weights and eat correctly. After some time you maximize your potential for each muscular group, reach its maximal development which is called the plateau phase. You cant add more weights anymore, you just hit your plateau. Try to develop the lagging bodypart to create a balanced physique. Be content with it, keep lifting (less) and eating healthy to maintain and ...finally fucking go find something else to do for a change.
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I see alot of self doubt in the posters here. :(
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I see alot of self doubt in the posters here. :(
Seems we need to Calvin H to post here to boost it up.
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If you want to build muscles just lift weights and eat correctly. After some time you maximize your potential for each muscular group, reach its maximal development which is called the plateau phase. You cant add more weights anymore, you just hit your plateau. Try to develop the lagging bodypart to create a balanced physique. Be content with it, keep lifting (less) and eating healthy to maintain and ...finally fucking go find something else to do for a change.
You still have a long ways to go before you reach your plateau stage there pal, hope you are really trying to focus in on this.
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"Base,how low can you go"
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I trained for 3 years building a base and its very easy for me to maintain what I feel is my natural limit of muscle. IMO I wish I would've started hormones after a year but it doesn't really matter now.
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I was checking topics on Natural Bodybuilding board and found this kid (don't think he posts here anymore) who has a perfect built for a natural. Great natural physic at such a young age.[ Invalid YouTube link ]
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Do you really believe that after 1 year of training a natural has maxed (or closely maxed) his muscle mass?
What do you think?
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a natural will after a year only ever gain muscle if the gains 4fold the fat along with that
I totally disagree , it took me about 10 years to reach my natural limit .
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What do you think?
I think the vast majority of people become impatient with their natural gains and start juicing before ever reaching their full potential. I believe a natural can make muscular and strength gains for several years, 5+ at least.
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I think the vast majority of people become impatient with their natural gains and start juicing before ever reaching their full potential. I believe a natural can make muscular and strength gains for several years, 5+ at least.
Alright. I believe "full natural potential" is something no one ever reaches. Who's to say someone
can't add another natural millimeter on some bodypart after 15 years of training? But the gains after that initial year or two are minute in the big picture. That's assuming the training isn't retarded, and that the trainee somewhat knows what he's doing from the start.
One can make natural strength gains even after 20 years of strength oriented training, but those gains are due to improvements in technique and neural factors.
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I think the vast majority of people become impatient with their natural gains and start juicing before ever reaching their full potential. I believe a natural can make muscular and strength gains for several years, 5+ at least.
I share this unpopular opinion as well...I was making noticeable gains during my 5th and last year as a natty, and I would consider myself to have average genetics, though I did have a crazy work ethic. I'm glad I never touched anything prior to year 5.
But the grass really is greener when you cross over to the dark side 8)
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I share this unpopular opinion as well...I was making noticeable gains during my 5th and last year as a natty, and I would consider myself to have average genetics, though I did have a crazy work ethic. I'm glad I never touched anything prior to year 5.
But the grass really is greener when you cross over to the dark side 8)
if you were making noticeable gains during your 5th year what made you change your mind and start using?
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if you were making noticeable gains during your 5th year what made you change your mind and start using?
Torn labrum/S.L.A.P. lesion (left shoulder)... My lifting will never be the same due to this injury, it put a major halt on any progression I would make naturally. I would have gone another 5 years or so natty if not for the labrum tear.
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out of curiosity, can you post a pic of your best before using and that pic in your avatar?
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Alright. I believe "full natural potential" is something no one ever reaches. Who's to say someone
can't add another natural millimeter on some bodypart after 15 years of training? But the gains after that initial year or two are minute in the big picture. That's assuming the training isn't retarded, and that the trainee somewhat knows what he's doing from the start.
One can make natural strength gains even after 20 years of strength oriented training, but those gains are due to improvements in technique and neural factors.
Aren't most strength gains due to technique and neural factors ???
I'm not one to put limits on the bodies ability to adapt. My workouts over the years have consisted of intense phases and cruise phases and that has seemed to work for me.
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Do you really believe that after 1 year of training a natural has maxed (or closely maxed) his muscle mass?
yes, if he's done everything properly (which is unlikely)
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yes, if he's done everything properly (which is unlikely)
Another quitter. :(
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If you want to build muscles just lift weights and eat correctly. After some time you maximize your potential for each muscular group, reach its maximal development which is called the plateau phase. You cant add more weights anymore, you just hit your plateau. Try to develop the lagging bodypart to create a balanced physique. Be content with it, keep lifting (less) and eating healthy to maintain and ...finally fucking go find something else to do for a change.
great post
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Another quitter. :(
been in the gym 5 days a week probably without a single miss this year (and pretty much for the past ten years), made some "PRs" too ;)
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Another quitter. :(
Haha, 1 year WTF.
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been in the gym 5 days a week probably without a single miss this year (and pretty much for the past ten years), made some "PRs" too ;)
How much juice did you do?
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How much juice did you do?
lol
to be upfront, i think i made all of my "gains" over the course of about four years. however, i did a lot of stupid, unproductive and counterproductive training (as part of the "learning process" ::)). if i counted up the months where i feel certain i grew, it would amount to less than a year total. for the following six years, i doubt i've grown an ounce of muscle. i've tried nearly everything i can think of when it comes to training and dieting, but never touched any hormones.
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lol
to be upfront, i think i made all of my "gains" over the course of about four years. however, i did a lot of stupid, unproductive and counterproductive training (as part of the "learning process" ::)). if i counted up the months where i feel certain i grew, it would amount to less than a year total. for the following six years, i doubt i've grown an ounce of muscle. i've tried nearly everything i can think of when it comes to training and dieting, but never touched any hormones.
You sound frustrated. :(
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nah, although most gym-goers seem to be.
it all comes down to DNA, as arce so finely puts it. the average bber can jam all the needles up his ass he wants, he'll still be "hilariously short". the stringy white kid can stuff his face and lift all the heavy weights he wants, he'll just end up a bloated permabulking mess. the average ex-athlete can juice or train as "intelligently" as he wants, he'll just look out of place where ever he goes -- so-so in the gym and too insecure-ish looking in real life.
the gym is full of people trying to be something they're not. when i was younger, i fit right in, thinking i was hot shit and wanting to be big, freaky, etc. "to whom much is given, much is expected", after all. i came to realize i was just "decent" and lowered my expectations. so no, i'm not frustrated. these days, i'm just happy i was given more than most: i'm lucky to be tall, lean, without glaring weaknesses, and hold enough muscle to look like i at least belong in the gym when i'm there. i look at most people in the gym and think "thank fuck im not him, what the hell would be the point?"
(no primemuscle)
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I totally disagree , it took me about 10 years to reach my natural limit .
Same...about when I hit 30 or so.
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Same...about when I hit 30 or so.
Looks like chaos has about 5 more years.
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lol
to be upfront, i think i made all of my "gains" over the course of about four years. however, i did a lot of stupid, unproductive and counterproductive training (as part of the "learning process" ::)). if i counted up the months where i feel certain i grew, it would amount to less than a year total. for the following six years, i doubt i've grown an ounce of muscle. i've tried nearly everything i can think of when it comes to training and dieting, but never touched any hormones.
another "natural" :)))
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The point of having a natural base is so that when you get older you still have the structure and frame.
The 20's somethings who just juice for beach muscles will look like complete garbage and nothing whatsoever after they hit 30 - 35 or so and look like they never touched a weight a day in their lives.
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out of curiosity, can you post a pic of your best before using and that pic in your avatar?
Sure.
I don't have any from my last 1.5 years or so, but this is from my 3rd year I believe. I have a bunch from 2.5 years but those are from when my last comp was when I was 5% BF so their not an accurate representation of what I walked around at. I was 190lbs or so here. As long as I was really pushing it week after week, (as in trying to PR weekly on one of my big 3 lifts) and my nutrition was flawless, the gains kept coming even at year 5.
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/Vincebertolini/cc84ce6cd95e9599aed00527520230c8.jpg)
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Sure.
I don't have any from my last 1.5 years or so, but this is from my 3rd year I believe. I have a bunch from 2.5 years but those are from when my last comp was when I was 5% BF so their not an accurate representation of what I walked around at. I was 190lbs or so here. As long as I was really pushing it week after week, (as in trying to PR weekly on one of my big 3 lifts) and my nutrition was flawless, the gains kept coming even at year 5.
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/Vincebertolini/cc84ce6cd95e9599aed00527520230c8.jpg)
I'd hit it......
While repeating the verse on your bicep. :-*
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I'd hit it......
While repeating the verse on your bicep. :-*
Thank you? ???
:-*
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Sure.
I don't have any from my last 1.5 years or so, but this is from my 3rd year I believe. I have a bunch from 2.5 years but those are from when my last comp was when I was 5% BF so their not an accurate representation of what I walked around at. I was 190lbs or so here. As long as I was really pushing it week after week, (as in trying to PR weekly on one of my big 3 lifts) and my nutrition was flawless, the gains kept coming even at year 5.
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/Vincebertolini/cc84ce6cd95e9599aed00527520230c8.jpg)
brutal flex style muscle vest
awesome 500 dollars muscletech supps
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brutal flex style muscle vest
awesome 500 dollars muscletech supps
"muscle vest" ;D awesome brit lingo
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Aren't most strength gains due to technique and neural factors ???
Strength is related to the cross-sectional area of a muscle.
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Aren't most strength gains due to technique and neural factors ???
yes.
esp. for natural
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Strength is related to the cross-sectional area of a muscle.
So bigger muscle = stronger?
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So bigger muscle = stronger?
if no changes in neuromuscular efficiency etc, YES
but in most cases there is a combination of several factors
also a "bigger muscle" does not always mean true myofibrilar hypertrophy
especially with all these insulin and seo monkeys
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So bigger muscle = stronger?
Not the case at all.
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Not the case at all.
Don't quote me, big boys are talking here.
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So bigger muscle = stronger?
Yes. which is why I always say that of course load is important in building muscle. The heavier you can train the more likely you will build muscle. However, the natural athlete has a very hard time putting on appreciable muscle after that first year or two. I train with some natural elite powerlifters who have trained for many years. They frequently incorporate highish rep ranges, high enough to elicit hypertrophy. But none of them have gained any appreciable muscle mass. They can switch weight classes but it's just a case of more or less fat mass. But they have managed to up their lifts considerably.
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Sure.
I don't have any from my last 1.5 years or so, but this is from my 3rd year I believe. I have a bunch from 2.5 years but those are from when my last comp was when I was 5% BF so their not an accurate representation of what I walked around at. I was 190lbs or so here. As long as I was really pushing it week after week, (as in trying to PR weekly on one of my big 3 lifts) and my nutrition was flawless, the gains kept coming even at year 5.
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/Vincebertolini/cc84ce6cd95e9599aed00527520230c8.jpg)
Are you saying you went down to 5% natural? What did your diet look like at the time (number of calories, %protein, %fat, %carbs)?
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Yes. which is why I always say that of course load is important in building muscle. The heavier you can train the more likely you will build muscle. However, the natural athlete has a very hard time putting on appreciable muscle after that first year or two. I train with some natural elite powerlifters who have trained for many years. They frequently incorporate highish rep ranges, high enough to elicit hypertrophy. But none of them have gained any appreciable muscle mass. They can switch weight classes but it's just a case of more or less fat mass. But they have managed to up their lifts considerably.
I'll second this. I remember lifting with a group of power lifters back in the day who were all natural and very strong. None of these guys were all that big and on was small. I remember thinking how the fuck can this guy be getting stronger but not any bigger. If you saw this guy on the street you wouldn't have known he lifted, but he was very strong.
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oh geting shredded natural is definitely possible.
will send you a message about this as for a last week or so I feel like I am stuck with not loosing any weight.
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Are you saying you went down to 5% natural? What did your diet look like at the time (number of calories, %protein, %fat, %carbs)?
yep.
5.0% using a 9 point skin caliper...I checked weekly and dropped roughly 0.5% each week to get there. Upper body was striated everywhere, though glutes and hams were smooth as a babies ass as typical with most natties. :D
15 week prep: 35 mins LI am cardio daily, 35 LI post workout cardio daily, HIIT on off days at night.
40/40/20 carbs/protein/fats, was close to 2k calories. I still use a 4/4/2 ratio, it just works well with my metabolism.
Side note: my physique and stats are NOT extraordinary for a natty. Average generics at best but I lived a bodybuilding monk lifestyle for those 15 weeks and this was the end result. Your average black teenager would "do more damage on stage" at a local natty show if they applied themselves like this.
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yep.
5.0% using a 9 point skin caliper...I checked weekly and dropped roughly 0.5% each week to get there. Upper body was striated everywhere, though glutes and hams were smooth as a babies ass as typical with most natties. :D
15 week prep: 35 mins LI am cardio daily, 35 LI post workout cardio daily, HIIT on off days at night.
40/40/20 carbs/protein/fats, was close to 2k calories. I still use a 4/4/2 ratio, it just works well with my metabolism.
Side note: my physique and stats are NOT extraordinary for a natty. Average generics at best but I lived a bodybuilding monk lifestyle for those 15 weeks and this was the end result. Your average black teenager would "do more damage on stage" at a local natty show if they applied themselves like this.
Congrats dude - I tell these people - its mental commitment and drive.
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Congrats dude - I tell these people - its mental commitment and drive.
Thanks man...5th place In the Novice division ;D tremendous achievement!!!!
I know you bust your ass as well, good on you bro.
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yep.
5.0% using a 9 point skin caliper...I checked weekly and dropped roughly 0.5% each week to get there. Upper body was striated everywhere, though glutes and hams were smooth as a babies ass as typical with most natties. :D
15 week prep: 35 mins LI am cardio daily, 35 LI post workout cardio daily, HIIT on off days at night.
40/40/20 carbs/protein/fats, was close to 2k calories. I still use a 4/4/2 ratio, it just works well with my metabolism.
Side note: my physique and stats are NOT extraordinary for a natty. Average generics at best but I lived a bodybuilding monk lifestyle for those 15 weeks and this was the end result. Your average black teenager would "do more damage on stage" at a local natty show if they applied themselves like this.
thanks for sharing
cheers
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Thanks man...5th place In the Novice division ;D tremendous achievement!!!!
I know you bust your ass as well, good on you bro.
I love training always have. The gym is my place of peace. Hard to explain to people who see it as a chore and only a means to look good.
I live to lift and always have.
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nah, although most gym-goers seem to be.
it all comes down to DNA, as arce so finely puts it. the average bber can jam all the needles up his ass he wants, he'll still be "hilariously short". the stringy white kid can stuff his face and lift all the heavy weights he wants, he'll just end up a bloated permabulking mess. the average ex-athlete can juice or train as "intelligently" as he wants, he'll just look out of place where ever he goes -- so-so in the gym and too insecure-ish looking in real life.
the gym is full of people trying to be something they're not. when i was younger, i fit right in, thinking i was hot shit and wanting to be big, freaky, etc. "to whom much is given, much is expected", after all. i came to realize i was just "decent" and lowered my expectations. so no, i'm not frustrated. these days, i'm just happy i was given more than most: i'm lucky to be tall, lean, without glaring weaknesses, and hold enough muscle to look like i at least belong in the gym when i'm there. i look at most people in the gym and think "thank fuck im not him, what the hell would be the point?"
(no primemuscle)
to put this more accurately for you guys-, cephissus is. the typical tall caucasion guy you see in the garden department at homedepot with a hot blue eyed chick on a sunday morning, the guy most bald meatheads look at in envy while they spend theirs unday mornings watching football with a room full of dudes after leg day.
hth :)
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I'll second this. I remember lifting with a group of power lifters back in the day who were all natural and very strong. None of these guys were all that big and on was small. I remember thinking how the fuck can this guy be getting stronger but not any bigger. If you saw this guy on the street you wouldn't have known he lifted, but he was very strong.
I think genetics and frame size has alot to do with it also.
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Anyone experience depression after getting off the sauce due to not being able to be as big and muscular? When that extra muscularity leaves you and the attention is gone I've heard some guys get way low for awhile. Some guys quite training altogether cause "what's the point?"
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Anyone experience depression after getting off the sauce due to not being able to be as big and muscular? When that extra muscularity leaves you and the attention is gone I've heard some guys get way low for awhile. Some guys quite training altogether cause "what's the point?"
The point of training is different for everyone, some just looks, some fitness, some to supplement other activities. When you get older it helps being in better overall shape and still be able to do things that you enjoy physically.
A lot of my friends who never lifted during their twenties or early thirties are all banged up w back aches, knee issues, surgeries, obesity etc.
Time you put in now pays dividends later on.
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Anyone experience depression after getting off the sauce due to not being able to be as big and muscular? When that extra muscularity leaves you and the attention is gone I've heard some guys get way low for awhile. Some guys quite training altogether cause "what's the point?"
I doubt anyone who has been hammering away at it naturally for 5+ years then switched to gear would share this sentiment.
Usually it's the clowns who start training/juicing at the same exact time. Guys who will only train if theres hormones in their system.
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The point of training is different for everyone, some just looks, some fitness, some to supplement other activities. When you get older it helps being in better overall shape and still be able to do things that you enjoy physically.
A lot of my friends who never lifted during their twenties or early thirties are all banged up w back aches, knee issues, surgeries, obesity etc.
Time you put in now pays dividends later on.
what is the point of rolling around in a sand pit then wading through a shit filled pond
how does that improve your fitness
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what is the point of rolling around in a sand pit then wading through a shit filled pond
how does that improve your fitness
It doesn't - its goofy and almost a gag. But it keeps me motivated to train hard so that I don't get bored just lifting for the sake of it.
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It doesn't - its goofy and almost a gag. But it keeps me motivated to train hard so that I don't get bored just lifting for the sake of it.
training should be hard
the mental challenge is just as important as the physical
gimmickry like smearing your face in dog shit while getting sand in your shoes is the first step to giving up altogether
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training should be hard
the mental challenge is just as important as the physical
gimmickry like smearing your face in dog shit while getting sand in your shoes is the first step to giving up altogether
I also do the Spartan races, etc. Thinking of doing another show late next year for the fuck of it.
I need something on the calendar to keep me motivated - just what works for me. Otherwise - my diet goes to shit and I get a bit stuck into boring routines that no longer work for me.
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I also do the Spartan races, etc. Thinking of doing another show late next year for the fuck of it.
I need something on the calendar to keep me motivated - just what works for me. Otherwise - my diet goes to shit and I get a bit stuck into boring routines that no longer work for me.
fair enough
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I also do the Spartan races, etc. Thinking of doing another show late next year for the fuck of it.
I need something on the calendar to keep me motivated - just what works for me. Otherwise - my diet goes to shit and I get a bit stuck into boring routines that no longer work for me.
Sounds like you lack self discipline and internal motivation.
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Sounds like you lack self discipline and internal motivation.
Not at all - just that been lifting for 20 years now and it got boring to me just limiting activities to the weight room alone.
Even when I was fatter - I lifted all the time - just that without something on the calendar to focus on - its harder to justify dieting harder etc etc.
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Yes. which is why I always say that of course load is important in building muscle. The heavier you can train the more likely you will build muscle. However, the natural athlete has a very hard time putting on appreciable muscle after that first year or two. I train with some natural elite powerlifters who have trained for many years. They frequently incorporate highish rep ranges, high enough to elicit hypertrophy. But none of them have gained any appreciable muscle mass. They can switch weight classes but it's just a case of more or less fat mass. But they have managed to up their lifts considerably.
you pointed out that all pros pretty much use anadrol dianabol etc for enhancing strength
good point
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I think genetics and frame size has alot to do with it also.
True. Calvin can't dunk but a ok dude.
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I think genetics and frame size has alot to do with it also.
To a degree, but one has to wonder if he would have done more reps and sets if he would have grown. Remember, he was natty which is hard enuff to grow and the fact he only trained like a power lifter was even worse.
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If you want to build muscles just lift weights and eat correctly. After some time you maximize your potential for each muscular group, reach its maximal development which is called the plateau phase. You cant add more weights anymore, you just hit your plateau. Try to develop the lagging bodypart to create a balanced physique. Be content with it, keep lifting (less) and eating healthy to maintain and ...finally fucking go find something else to do for a change.
haha yes well said.
..or you can continue past that limit and inject yourself to "glory" ::) :D
edit: sorry shouldn't talk negative this is "getbig" after all
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I'll second this. I remember lifting with a group of power lifters back in the day who were all natural and very strong. None of these guys were all that big and on was small. I remember thinking how the fuck can this guy be getting stronger but not any bigger. If you saw this guy on the street you wouldn't have known he lifted, but he was very strong.
That is exactly why I think muscle size has nothing to do with strength.
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That is exactly why I think muscle size has nothing to do with strength.
When I first started really working out at 18yo or so I was in Bally's w my boy who was a tall guy , a basketball player type who was strong as a MOFO but did not look it and he would abuse a lot of dudes who looked stronger than him all the time in all sorts of lifts. He busted his ass too but always was way stronger than he looked.
Then there were a lot of black dudes who looked unbelievable while barely lifting who were way weaker than they looked. They looked great for BB, but the strength levels did not associate w the looks.
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When I first started really working out at 18yo or so I was in Bally's w my boy who was a tall guy , a basketball player type who was strong as a MOFO but did not look it and he would abuse a lot of dudes who looked stronger than him all the time in all sorts of lifts. He busted his ass too but always was way stronger than he looked.
Then there were a lot of black dudes who looked unbelievable while barely lifting who were way weaker than they looked. They looked great for BB, but the strength levels did not associate w the looks.
It's all about knowledge, form, and repetition. Natural strength has alot to do with it as well. I compare it to guys born with rocket arms.
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It's all about knowledge, form, and repetition. Natural strength has alot to do with it as well. I compare it to guys born with rocket arms.
It was really funny - since he was a tall greek kid and these black guys who were jacked and looked insanely good were screaming doing seated militaries w 60lb dumbbells and making a scene and he would walk over and be like "bro - we are trying to warm up over here - you done with those . . . . "
ha ha ha ha ha
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I doubt anyone who has been hammering away at it naturally for 5+ years then switched to gear would share this sentiment.
Usually it's the clowns who start training/juicing at the same exact time. Guys who will only train if theres hormones in their system.
Think again. How fun is it to train knowing for certain that you are only maintaining - at best? As a lifelong natural you can still convince yourself that you might make some type of gains if you keep at it. If you know for certain you're never cycling again it's a pretty depressing place to be in. If you're only training to maintain somewhat between cycles then it's easier.
Also, once you've juiced extensively your clean state might be worse than if you never juiced at all, with the often permanently depressed testosterone levels. That's why most former juicers who continue training go on HRT, preferably on a liberal dosage (for example like Galeniko).
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no there is no point in building a natural base...teststerone enanthate specifically i has been proven to create new satellite cells. testosterone has been shown to change shape of muscle fibers.
natural base my ass,,,,, If you wait until your 25 years old to start juicing, you will never be a freak.
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no there is no point in building a natural base...teststerone enanthate specifically i has been proven to create new satellite cells. testosterone has been shown to change shape of muscle fibers.
natural base my ass,,,,, If you wait until your 25 years old to start juicing, you will never be a freak.
Don Youngblood would like a word with you.
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Don Youngblood would like a word with you.
True, but we'd need an Ouija board to consult with him :-\
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no there is no point in building a natural base...teststerone enanthate specifically i has been proven to create new satellite cells. testosterone has been shown to change shape of muscle fibers.
natural base my ass,,,,, If you wait until your 25 years old to start juicing, you will never be a freak.
LOL - I have seen guys like you come and go for 20 years now like a dime a dozen. 20 years from now you will be either fat fuck or a skinny twink who looks like he never worked out a day in his life. I been at this since almost as long as you are alive and seen guys like you all the time. Get bloated and big, get sick and develop health issues or get lazy and stop training, and just fade away or get fat and obese.
Enjoy it now - you wont have it for long at all. Just take pics now so when you are 30, 35, 40, you can look back and say what a beast you were when you were 25.
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Great thread. Build a base (2-3 years max) but if the goal is to get huge and compete you need to start early (in most cases).
I wish I had the balls to juice. I have been training as a natural for many years and the muscular gains are at this point nonexistent. I still like working out tho just because training is therapy and you can look decent when lean. But being able to make to further gains would definately make it much more enjoyable.
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Great thread. Build a base (2-3 years max) but if the goal is to get huge and compete you need to start early (in most cases).
Short term goals are fine - but what is the end game?
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Short term goals are fine - but what is the end game?
Yeah, competitive bodybuilding will never be healthy. But most of the really big guys I have seen/read about started early,
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LOL - I have seen guys like you come and go for 20 years now like a dime a dozen. 20 years from now you will be either fat fuck or a skinny twink who looks like he never worked out a day in his life. I been at this since almost as long as you are alive and seen guys like you all the time. Get bloated and big, get sick and develop health issues or get lazy and stop training, and just fade away or get fat and obese.
Enjoy it now - you wont have it for long at all. Just take pics now so when you are 30, 35, 40, you can look back and say what a beast you were when you were 25.
::)
and in 20 years, you'll still somehow believe working out can make up for being 5'3"
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LOL - I have seen guys like you come and go for 20 years now like a dime a dozen. 20 years from now you will be either fat fuck or a skinny twink who looks like he never worked out a day in his life. I been at this since almost as long as you are alive and seen guys like you all the time. Get bloated and big, get sick and develop health issues or get lazy and stop training, and just fade away or get fat and obese.
Enjoy it now - you wont have it for long at all. Just take pics now so when you are 30, 35, 40, you can look back and say what a beast you were when you were 25.
100%
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To a degree, but one has to wonder if he would have done more reps and sets if he would have grown. Remember, he was natty which is hard enuff to grow and the fact he only trained like a power lifter was even worse.
Well I'm sitting at 280 and people think I'm 240, even other experienced lifters, because I have a large frame. To think I would fit into some generic mold of "a natural can only weigh X amount at X height" is just silly.
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Think again. How fun is it to train knowing for certain that you are only maintaining - at best? As a lifelong natural you can still convince yourself that you might make some type of gains if you keep at it. If you know for certain you're never cycling again it's a pretty depressing place to be in. If you're only training to maintain somewhat between cycles then it's easier.
Also, once you've juiced extensively your clean state might be worse than if you never juiced at all, with the often permanently depressed testosterone levels. That's why most former juicers who continue training go on HRT, preferably on a liberal dosage (for example like Galeniko).
I should say that my stance is based on my own experience with training natty for many years and then transitioning into the "other side". And my views are still the same on it. I was making gains up until my 6th year natty when I injured my shoulder. So gear obviously was a lifesaver and helped me keep progressing around my injury, but I would keep training no matter what, even without it if it came down to it. This is my hobby, it's what I love to do. I assume I'm not the only long time natty who has crossed over and sill shares my same opinions.
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LOL - I have seen guys like you come and go for 20 years now like a dime a dozen. 20 years from now you will be either fat fuck or a skinny twink who looks like he never worked out a day in his life. I been at this since almost as long as you are alive and seen guys like you all the time. Get bloated and big, get sick and develop health issues or get lazy and stop training, and just fade away or get fat and obese.
Enjoy it now - you wont have it for long at all. Just take pics now so when you are 30, 35, 40, you can look back and say what a beast you were when you were 25.
haha Im 20 .... by the time Im 25 i wont need to take pictures with my shitty flip phone I'll be on the cover of magazines lol
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but I would keep training no matter what, even without it if it came down to it. This is my hobby, it's what I love to do. I assume I'm not the only long time natty who has crossed over and sill shares my same opinions.
Maybe you would but you haven't tried it yet. :D
Think about training with a third of the test you had cruising in your body as a natural, then when you flex your muscles nothing happens, they always feel soft, aches and pains come back even worse than before, everyone asking if you've been sick and haven't been training and so on. :D
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haha Im 20 .... by the time Im 25 i wont need to take pictures with my shitty flip phone I'll be on the cover of magazines lol
huh.... younger than my gf... that explains a lot.
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Maybe you would but you haven't tried it yet. :D
Think about training with a third of the test you had cruising in your body as a natural, then when you flex your muscles nothing happens, they always feel soft, aches and pains come back even worse than before, everyone asking if you've been sick and haven't been training and so on. :D
this has been me for the past five years...
you just get used to it
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It's all about knowledge, form, and repetition. Natural strength has alot to do with it as well. I compare it to guys born with rocket arms.
how the fuck do you know
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a natural can weigh whatever he wants, everyone can gain fat ;D
gustavo badell chosen to stay natural, here straight from horse mouth:
So your opinion based on your personal natural limit is that a 6'2"+ guy can only weigh X amount?
What is X amount in your opinion?
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So your opinion based on your personal natural limit is that a 6'2"+ guy can only weigh X amount?
What is X amount in your opinion?
ripped about 210lbs
lean about 230 lbs
reasonable shape about 250 lbs
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Lol
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Lol
whats your take
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how the fuck do you know
I thought my numerous pics would have spelled it out. ;D
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whats your take
He takes the whole pizza ;D
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whats your take
I hit 220 shredded as fuck, meticulous diet/training after about 5 years of bodybuilding style training before I got bored and started lifting heavy. So had I continued, who knows? But I do know most people lose the drive to push harder/heavier and end up juicing, staying stagnant or quitting.
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I hit 220 shredded as fuck, meticulous diet/training after about 5 years of bodybuilding style training before I got bored and started lifting heavy. So had I continued, who knows? But I do know most people lose the drive to push harder/heavier and end up juicing, staying stagnant or quitting.
What's your Bodyfat right now at 280?
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What's your Bodyfat right now at 280?
Fat enough but not so fat that it hangs over my belt. Never concerned myself with it.
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Fat enough but not so fat that it hangs over my belt. Never concerned myself with it.
Great now tell me what you're wearing right now
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/Vincebertolini/e550901713f151d2b417dfad250dccb8.jpg)
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Great now tell me what you're wearing right now
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/Vincebertolini/e550901713f151d2b417dfad250dccb8.jpg)
Jeans and a xxl T-shirt.... free balling.
You?
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I hit 220 shredded as fuck,
WHITE GOODRUM IN DA HOUSE !!!! , hahhaa ,oh brother .
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WHITE GOODRUM IN DA HOUSE !!!! , hahhaa ,oh brother .
;D
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Fat enough but not so fat that it hangs over my belt. Never concerned myself with it.
Diabeetus.
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lift until you are not able to grow on your own any more then start ped
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former big juicers profit later on on small doses, for whatever mysterious reasons, but they do.
i think this can go one of two ways.
you hit a point of 'no return' ala ronnie coleman/ kamali/ markus ruhl/ dave palumo even jay cutler now, where the amounts of hormones they are taking only make them look worse, and they cant drop the dose cause they have gone too far past their genetic thresholds to ever look good again.
i think the best bet is to use moderate doses over a long period of time. not big cycles up and down up and down, but steady continual usage over time until you hit a point where your either going to go pro, or are happy with a good physique.
those guys who are happy with the good physique will benefit greatly like you say from running smaller doses than what it took to get them there, and even continue making gains. like you i cant figure it out.
the second group the further they go past ^ that point, the less able they are to have a respectable physique when dropping their dose, let alone look better running the same amounts (or more) it took to get there.
there is very definitely a law of diminishing returns.
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but natyy wont be 6ft 210lbs shredded, tha will not happen :D
Lol
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I think natural base will only matter later on in life...Most won't be able to stay geared up all the time and when these guys come off and sometimes for good, without the natural base, they will look untrained as if they never stepped in a gym in their life...
This is truth. I love the fact that over 30 years of training I am now bigger than most ex-pros.
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Lol
I ate a peanut butter and jelly sandwich today.
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I ate a peanut butter and jelly sandwich today.
Toasted?
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@chaos, 6ft 210 shredded is exactly my current size, 6ft2 220 "lean" isnt the same thing
I was actually close to what you are now. If you saw me back then you would have thought I was just some skinny guy, I looked 185. I lived the lifestyle for 5 years religiously. Then I shifted towards strength and have no desire to do that again. Honestly, my frame and my joints are huge,I'd bet much much larger than yours. If I remember correct my arms were barely 16" and I wore a size 30 pants. I looked like a stick. ;D
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::)
and in 20 years, you'll still somehow believe working out can make up for being 5'3"
hahahaha, brutal.
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I was actually close to what you are now. If you saw me back then you would have thought I was just some skinny guy, I looked 185. I lived the lifestyle for 5 years religiously. Then I shifted towards strength and have no desire to do that again. Honestly, my frame and my joints are huge,I'd bet much much larger than yours. If I remember correct my arms were barely 16" and I wore a size 30 pants. I looked like a stick. ;D
Now why do you say you shifted towards strength but no desire to do that again?
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I was actually close to what you are now. If you saw me back then you would have thought I was just some skinny guy, I looked 185. I lived the lifestyle for 5 years religiously. Then I shifted towards strength and have no desire to do that again. Honestly, my frame and my joints are huge,I'd bet much much larger than yours. If I remember correct my arms were barely 16" and I wore a size 30 pants. I looked like a stick. ;D
In other words you got lazy and got fatter
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Now why do you say you shifted towards strength but no desire to do that again?
you're a lifetime natty and you competed, so what was your highest stage ready bodyweight at 6'2"?
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you're a lifetime natty and you competed, so what was your highest stage ready bodyweight at 6'2"?
210.
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In other words you got lazy and got fatter
I'm glad I did the main bulking up phases in my 20's, awesome memories haha
I miss going to my favourite little cafe and having a steak, eggs, bacon, toast with jam, butter, a huge coffee and then a waffle with ice-cream afterwards ;D
Now for me, going into the 30's it's prob better to try stay lean and let the body get used to a leaner bodyweight.
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210.
that's damn impressive
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that's damn impressive
agreed. a 6'2 210 natty is pretty much at the top end of what is possible.
hell some guys who juice cant get stage lean at 6'2 210. props.
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agreed. a 6'2 210 natty is pretty much at the top end of what is possible.
hell some guys who juice cant get stage lean at 6'2 210. props.
Thanks, genes rule. Not too bad yourself from the pics I have seen.
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Now why do you say you shifted towards strength but no desire to do that again?
I have no desire to be that lean again. Just hasn't interested me.
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agreed. a 6'2 210 natty is pretty much at the top end of what is possible.
hell some guys who juice cant get stage lean at 6'2 210. props.
Yes, though it also depends on bone structure and density.
He said he has very big joints so that will add to the weight.
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I have no desire to be that lean again. Just hasn't interested me.
as long as you are happy with who you
who gives a fuck
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I have no desire to be that lean again. Just hasn't interested me.
Are you still flipping tires if so get Cswol done there for a challenge.
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Here's an idea for some of you to try, you're all about measuring your biceps and your waists right? Try measuring your wrists and your knees.
My wrists = 8 3/8"
My knees = 18 1/2"
Let's compare joint size. :D
Slightly homo. :-*
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wrist=6 inches
knee=14 inches
cock=2.5 inches
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wrist=6 inches
knee=14 inches
cock=2.5 inches
;D
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it'd be cool to clone myself at age 12...
keep the version of me that I currently have, skinnytwink getbig posting machine.
and the other version would stay single, never have kids, use gear, sell gear, chase ass til I'm 50, live reckless.
Then one day we meet in an elevator and fight to the death. And coked-up bodybuilder rob kicks the shit out of rob homemaker.
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genetics matter...of course. if your meant to be a big muscular guy you will know it...I was 215lbs in high school...natural
(http://i.imgur.com/VbWJL0F.jpg) (http://lunapic.com>)
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genetics matter...of course. if your meant to be a big muscular guy you will know it...I was 215lbs in high school...natural
(http://i.imgur.com/VbWJL0F.jpg) (http://lunapic.com>)
you are as delusional as tbombz if not worse
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you are as delusional as tbombz if not worse
keep telling yourself that to make you feel better. the reality is Your juice best couldn't come close to me in that photo, honest to god I had never even touched a prohormone there...
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keep telling yourself that to make you feel better. the reality is Your juice best couldn't come close to me in that photo, honest to god I had never even touched a prohormone there...
couldnt come close in terms of looking like shit? in terms of ugly stretch marks? in terms of gyno?
what are your parameters?
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couldnt come close in terms of looking like shit? in terms of ugly stretch marks? in terms of gyno?
what are your parameters?
translation- anabolichalo on gear cant even come close to what flinstones looked like as a natural. Your a fucking bitch, not even in my area code.
stretch marks? real lifters life for those....there a badge of honor and a sign that what your doing is working. there 50 times worse now...lol.
ps are you a girl? keep using your cocoa butter lol
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http://i.imgur.com/VbWJL0F.jpg
have you had the gyno removed yet?
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have you had the gyno removed yet?
real lifters life for those....there a badge of honor and a sign that what your doing is working. there 50 times worse now...lol.
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have you had the gyno removed yet?
nope. dont want to get it removed until Im 240lbs shredded, and develop my abs to that of a competitive pro bber i dont train my abs...... until there no point. ...
its not as bad as it was back then in that pic though...
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nope. dont want to get it removed until Im 240lbs shredded, and develop my abs to that of a competitive pro bber i dont train my abs...... until there no point. ...
Not training them should do it, keep at it, or not as the case may be. ::)
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Not training them should do it, keep at it, or not as the case may be. ::)
my waiste is tiny anyways....will it make me look any better in a tank top walking down the street? no it wont....
but the forearms, traps,rear delts, very important muscles for every day look that many bbers neglect, all are very developed..,,I dont train my spinal erectors, abs, , etc.
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my waiste is tiny anyways....will it make me look any better in a tank top walking down the street? no it wont....
but the forearms, traps,rear delts, very important muscles for every day look that many bbers neglect, all are very developed..,,I dont train my spinal erectors, abs, , etc.
i see the advices you paid tbums for has stuck deeply in your mind, money well spent
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i see the advices you paid tbums for has stuck deeply in your mind, money well spent
if my family ever found a picture of me in a thong on stage they would disown me....hmm tough choice
1. diet down, get on stage, kill myself with 600lb deadlifts and good mornings ::) to diet on chicken and brocollli nd loose 10 pounds of muscle to be judged by a bunch of men
2. or live the dream, fuck hot chicks, eat like shit and enjoy the amazing food life offers while I walk aroundat 8% bf year round,without ever having to break a real sweat in the gym..... while my parents cover my car insurance.
tough choice ::) think doing a show will have to wait ;)
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i deadlifted 405 pounds when I was 14 yo...
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if my family ever found a picture of me in a thong on stage they would disown me....hmm tough choice
1. diet down, get on stage, kill myself with 600lb deadlifts and good mornings ::) to diet on chicken and brocollli nd loose 10 pounds of muscle to be judged by a bunch of men
2. or live the dream, fuck hot chicks, eat like shit and enjoy the amazing food life offers while I walk aroundat 8% bf year round,without ever having to break a real sweat in the gym..... while my parents cover my car insurance.
tough choice ::)
if you spent less time paying for advices off bi curio getbiggers youd be able to cover it your self
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if my family ever found a picture of me in a thong on stage they would disown me....hmm tough choice
Why, are they homophobic bigots?
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i deadlifted 405 pounds when I was 14 yo...
;D