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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: tbombz on February 12, 2011, 03:29:43 PM

Title: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 12, 2011, 03:29:43 PM
my friends, they key to making progress every workout, to getting as big as possible, as strong as possible, is to never EVER cause significant muscle damage. this means staying at least 2-3 reps shy of failure on EVERY set. even when youve already done several heavy sets and you would hit failure by doing 3-5 reps , you need to stop at 1-3 reps (just an example). never ever cause muscle damage.  when you damage the muscle, your body has to repair that damage, and cant focus on building new muscle tissue. strength POTENTIAL and muscle size are directly correlated.  the more muscle you have the moe weight you can lift. the more glycogen and water you have in the muscle the more rep capacity you have. if you want to get big and strong, you need to lift heavy heavy heavy. good form. stimulate the muscle to add new muscle cells so you can lift more weight. BUT STAY AWAY FROM FAILURE. you can add some extra size by throwing in higher reps, but only to a degree. you cant add any significant muscle tissue without progressive overload, all you do by increasing reps is increase stamina/rep capacity/glycogen/water levels.

discuss
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 12, 2011, 03:33:49 PM
I want to believe, I really do.


But I don't, sorry.

More test = more muscle.

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: big L dawg on February 12, 2011, 03:37:42 PM

More test = more muscle.



agreed..although it didnt work for the person that started this thread...must be a non responder to test  :P
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Marty Champions on February 12, 2011, 03:37:48 PM
damn this is some encouraging news
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: johnnynoname on February 12, 2011, 03:38:22 PM
agreed..although it didnt work for the person that started this thread...must be a non responder to test  :P

where did you copy and paste this from
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 12, 2011, 03:43:22 PM
where did you copy and paste this from

ha ha
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tendonitis on February 12, 2011, 03:46:30 PM
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: JasonH on February 12, 2011, 03:47:31 PM
my friends, they key to making progress every workout, to getting as big as possible, as strong as possible, is to never EVER cause significant muscle damage. this means staying at least 2-3 reps shy of failure on EVERY set. even when youve already done several heavy sets and you would hit failure by doing 3-5 reps , you need to stop at 1-3 reps (just an example). never ever cause muscle damage.  when you damage the muscle, your body has to repair that damage, and cant focus on building new muscle tissue. strength POTENTIAL and muscle size are directly correlated.  the more muscle you have the moe weight you can lift. the more glycogen and water you have in the muscle the more rep capacity you have. if you want to get big and strong, you need to lift heavy heavy heavy. good form. stimulate the muscle to add new muscle cells so you can lift more weight. BUT STAY AWAY FROM FAILURE. you can add some extra size by throwing in higher reps, but only to a degree. you cant add any significant muscle tissue without progressive overload, all you do by increasing reps is increase stamina/rep capacity/glycogen/water levels.

discuss

Absolute nonsense.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 12, 2011, 03:57:35 PM
Please, keep your training epiphany to yourself. You keep saying to avoid failure at all costs yet you have no real logic as to why one should.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: SHOULDERS on February 12, 2011, 04:03:00 PM
what kind of gains have you made? you've lost all the fat and been training and gearing for quite a while dude. has this stuff worked for you. would be interested what you've accomplished man.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 12, 2011, 04:17:40 PM
Well, you are spot on with the statement that PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD is the key, but the question is how to make it happen. So if one doesn't train to failure how does one know for certain to increase one's training weights? Is it only by feeling that one is ready to increase the training load? I don't know man, but in my opinion one of the components of training til failure is to allow one to know that they are indeed ready to increase their training load. For example if one does 6 to 8 reps per set and they find that they can do 10 reps with a given weight then that's a "signal" for them to increase their training weight.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 12, 2011, 04:20:03 PM
Well, you are spot on with the statement that PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD is the key, but the question is how to make it happen. So if one doesn't train to failure how does one know for certain to increase one's training weights? Is it only by feeling that one is ready to increase the training load? I don't know man, but in my opinion one of the components of training til failure is to allow one to know that they are indeed ready to increase their training load. For example if one does 6 to 8 reps per set and they find that they can do 10 reps with a given weight then that's a "signal" for them to increase their training weight.

More or less, this.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: big L dawg on February 12, 2011, 04:21:07 PM
where did you copy and paste this from

1. Give money you can spare to someone who needs it and then pretend you never had it.

2. Let someone tell a story without feeling the need to one-up them or tell your own.

3. Let someone vent, even if you can’t offer a solution, just to be an ear–without considering how well they listened to you last week.

4. Help someone who is struggling with difficult feelings by admitting you’ve felt the same thing–without considering whether they’d be as open with you.

5. Ask, “What can I do to help you today?” Then let it go after following through.

6. Tell someone how you feel about them, even if it makes you feel vulnerable, just to let them know they’re loved and not alone.

7. Apologize when you’ve acted selfishly, even if you don’t like feeling wrong, because it will remind the other person they deserve to be treated with respect.

8. Let someone else educate you, even if you’re tempted to stay closed minded, because you value their knowledge and appreciate their willingness to share it.

9. Forgive someone who wronged you because you have compassion for them, not because you know they’ll owe you.

10. Hold someone’s hand when they feel vulnerable to let them know you haven’t judged them.

11. Give your full attention to the person in front of you when you’re tempted to let your thoughts wander just to show them their words are valuable.

12. Assume the best when you’re tempted to suspect someone for no valid reason—even if they haven’t always given you the benefit of the doubt.

13. Accompany someone to an appointment or drive them to an interview when they need support just to help them feel strong.

14. Change your plans for someone you love if yours weren’t too important without questioning whether they’d do the same for you.

15. Teach someone how to do something without taking a superior position because they’ve likely taught you many things, whether they were obvious or not.

16. Leave a thoughtful comment on someone’s blog, not to build your readership but rather to show them how they affected you.

17. Tell someone you believe in their potential, even if they haven’t always shown you the same support.

18. Say no when it would make you feel good to say yes, because sometimes being kind means pushing someone to step up and try harder.

19. Tell someone you know they meant well instead of using their mistake as an opportunity to manipulate their guilt.

20. I’ve left this one open for you to write–how do you give just to show you care?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: big L dawg on February 12, 2011, 04:22:04 PM
ha ha

who the fuck are you? Ed mcmahon.......
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on February 12, 2011, 04:29:33 PM
Except for people who don't have the genetic code for good calves. These types of entities have to annihilate their calves or they will for ever look untrained.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on February 12, 2011, 04:30:48 PM
I wonder how much bigger Tom Platz's upper body would have been if he didn't annihilate it like he did his legs?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: lesaucer on February 12, 2011, 04:36:12 PM
my friends, they key to making progress every workout, to getting as big as possible, as strong as possible, is to never EVER cause significant muscle damage. this means staying at least 2-3 reps shy of failure on EVERY set. even when youve already done several heavy sets and you would hit failure by doing 3-5 reps , you need to stop at 1-3 reps (just an example). never ever cause muscle damage.  when you damage the muscle, your body has to repair that damage, and cant focus on building new muscle tissue. strength POTENTIAL and muscle size are directly correlated.  the more muscle you have the moe weight you can lift. the more glycogen and water you have in the muscle the more rep capacity you have. if you want to get big and strong, you need to lift heavy heavy heavy. good form. stimulate the muscle to add new muscle cells so you can lift more weight. BUT STAY AWAY FROM FAILURE. you can add some extra size by throwing in higher reps, but only to a degree. you cant add any significant muscle tissue without progressive overload, all you do by increasing reps is increase stamina/rep capacity/glycogen/water levels.

discuss

BALLOONEY OF A FAT DIRTBIKE RIDING KID WHO NEVER WAS ABLE TO GAIN MUCH FROM A SHITLOAD OF AAS. TRYING TO CONVINCE HIMSELF TTHAT ASS IS NOT THE KEY ,THAT STRENGTH IS THE KEY BUT NO FRIENDS MORE AAS= MORE GAINS ADD HGHONA AND YOU HAVE MUTATION TO HIGHER DEGREE...,,, UNLESS YOU HHAVE VERY BAD GENES. UNLESS YOUR GENETICS IS TO STAY FAT AND TAKES COCKS UP IN THE ASS FOR A DEEP TISSUE MASSAGE..,,      DISMISSED,,
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: el numero uno on February 12, 2011, 04:47:55 PM
BALLOONEY OF A FAT DIRTBIKE RIDING KID WHO NEVER WAS ABLE TO GAIN MUCH FROM A SHITLOAD OF AAS. TRYING TO CONVINCE HIMSELF TTHAT ASS IS NOT THE KEY ,THAT STRENGTH IS THE KEY BUT NO FRIENDS MORE AAS= MORE GAINS ADD HGHONA AND YOU HAVE MUTATION TO HIGHER DEGREE...,,, UNLESS YOU HHAVE VERY BAD GENES. UNLESS YOUR GENETICS IS TO STAY FAT AND TAKES COCKS UP IN THE ASS FOR A DEEP TISSUE MASSAGE..,,      DISMISSED,,

wtf gh15 hacked lesaucer's account :o
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: johnnynoname on February 12, 2011, 05:12:59 PM
who the fuck are you? Ed mcmahon.......

lmao
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 12, 2011, 05:18:19 PM
 >:(
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 12, 2011, 05:29:01 PM
agreed..although it didnt work for the person that started this thread...must be a non responder to test  :P
Maybe if he stuck the test into his buttcheek instead of between them it would work better.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: johnnynoname on February 12, 2011, 05:32:22 PM
I think i'm going on a bit of a tangent here but I got to ask: why doesn't the tbombz (or the other guru's on here) become a personal trainer?

I mean, why bother trying to convert the imbeciles who frequent this forum..go out and sell what you are preaching to a bunch or rubes

just take the test and get certified.  Then, you don't even need to know what you are talking about; people will just take your word because you are "certified"
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: lesaucer on February 12, 2011, 05:33:34 PM
I think i'm going on a bit of a tangent here but I got to ask: why doesn't the tbombz (or the other guru's on here) become a personal trainer?

I mean, why bother trying to convert the imbeciles who frequent this forum..go out and sell what you are preaching to a bunch or rubes

just take the test and get certified.  Then, you don't even need to know what you are talking about; people will just take your word because you are "certified"

because no one will listen to you if you look like shit
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 12, 2011, 05:34:01 PM
my friends, they key to making progress every workout, to getting as big as possible, as strong as possible, is to never EVER cause significant muscle damage. this means staying at least 2-3 reps shy of failure on EVERY set. even when youve already done several heavy sets and you would hit failure by doing 3-5 reps , you need to stop at 1-3 reps (just an example). never ever cause muscle damage.  when you damage the muscle, your body has to repair that damage, and cant focus on building new muscle tissue. strength POTENTIAL and muscle size are directly correlated.  the more muscle you have the moe weight you can lift. the more glycogen and water you have in the muscle the more rep capacity you have. if you want to get big and strong, you need to lift heavy heavy heavy. good form. stimulate the muscle to add new muscle cells so you can lift more weight. BUT STAY AWAY FROM FAILURE. you can add some extra size by throwing in higher reps, but only to a degree. you cant add any significant muscle tissue without progressive overload, all you do by increasing reps is increase stamina/rep capacity/glycogen/water levels.

discuss

Competely wrong and misguided. Please do some research into hypertrophy and damage. Why should the muscle grow when you stop short of failure? It might occasionally but for steady growth you need to do something extraordinary. Strength comes but isn't the goal.

It is always refreshing to hear the considered advice of Getbiggers.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: johnnynoname on February 12, 2011, 05:34:51 PM
because no one will listen to you if you look like shit

honestly, I don't recall tbombz looking like shit

then again, I haven't seen a recent pic
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 12, 2011, 05:40:04 PM
Competely wrong and misguided. Please do some research into hypertrophy and damage. Why should the muscle grow when you stop short of failure? It might occasionally but for steady growth you need to do something extraordinary. Strength comes but isn't the goal.

It is always refreshing to hear the considered advice of Getbiggers.
You're always clackin your dentures about hypertrophy but you've never bothered to tell everyone your "theories" about it......
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: lesaucer on February 12, 2011, 05:40:37 PM
honestly, I don't recall tbombz looking like shit

then again, I haven't seen a recent pic

wasnt specifically talking about him, he look better than 99% of people here
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: el numero uno on February 12, 2011, 05:54:33 PM
You're always clackin your dentures about hypertrophy but you've never bothered to tell everyone your "theories" about it......

x2
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 12, 2011, 06:02:42 PM
The flotsam here wouldn't know the correct theory because they already have their pet theories. Cleansing the brains of the simple-minded is no easy task. 

Clearly the Op has no clue about hypertrophy and neither do most of the blokes here.  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 12, 2011, 06:04:40 PM
The flotsam here wouldn't know the correct theory because they already have their pet theories. Cleansing the brains of the simple-minded is no easy task. 

Clearly the Op has no clue about hypertrophy and neither do most of the blokes here.  
You're more than capable of coming here and babbling on and on in your typical old man droning, but somehow you can't find the time/energy to post your theories? LMAO.

I have a theory too.........that you're full of shit! :D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: lesaucer on February 12, 2011, 06:09:20 PM
You're more than capable of coming here and babbling on and on in your typical old man droning, but somehow you can't find the time/energy to post your theories? LMAO.

I have a theory too.........that you're full of shit! :D

his theory is.... if you have dbol you can win mr.canada in 1960 or whatever..
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 12, 2011, 06:14:40 PM
his theory is.... if you have dbol you can win mr.canada in 1960 or whatever..
ooooooh, I think his theory was to win Mr Canada 1948, you have to pick your own judging panel...
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Firemuscle on February 12, 2011, 06:17:58 PM
my friends, they key to making progress every workout, to getting as big as possible, as strong as possible, is to never EVER cause significant muscle damage. this means staying at least 2-3 reps shy of failure on EVERY set. even when youve already done several heavy sets and you would hit failure by doing 3-5 reps , you need to stop at 1-3 reps (just an example). never ever cause muscle damage.  when you damage the muscle, your body has to repair that damage, and cant focus on building new muscle tissue. strength POTENTIAL and muscle size are directly correlated.  the more muscle you have the moe weight you can lift. the more glycogen and water you have in the muscle the more rep capacity you have. if you want to get big and strong, you need to lift heavy heavy heavy. good form. stimulate the muscle to add new muscle cells so you can lift more weight. BUT STAY AWAY FROM FAILURE. you can add some extra size by throwing in higher reps, but only to a degree. you cant add any significant muscle tissue without progressive overload, all you do by increasing reps is increase stamina/rep capacity/glycogen/water levels.

discuss

 Everything i've witnessed in my 17 years of weight lifting shows what you are saying here to be bullshit.

 I've seen your theory proved wrong with my own two eyes many times.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 12, 2011, 06:18:53 PM
Everything i've witnessed in my 17 years of weight lifting shows what you are saying here to be bullshit.

 I've seen your theory proved wrong with my own two eyes many times.
You're a fucking liar and tdongz would fuck the shit out of you.

































Literally. :-X
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Firemuscle on February 12, 2011, 06:21:53 PM
You're a fucking liar and tdongz would fuck the shit out of you.

































Literally. :-X

 I've never lied about anything you fat swamp beast.

 The only time I lied was when I fucked your mom. She asked me if her pussy stank like rotton tuna and I said "No, of course not. It smells great."
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: lesaucer on February 12, 2011, 06:22:56 PM
I've never lied about anything you fat swamp beast.

 The only time I lied was when I fucked your mom. She asked me if her pussy stank like rotton tuna and I said "No, of course not. It smells great."

rofllll
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 12, 2011, 06:25:37 PM
Chaos is one of the nasty dorks here and he wonders why sensible people don't contribute much on Getbig.

It is one thing to post a true theory and quite another to dismiss a false one. Unless you go to failure most of the time you simply will not grow. Oh, you might grow as a beginner but after the intermediate stage you will stop. This is when being right is absolutely required.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 12, 2011, 06:28:14 PM
Chaos is one of the nasty dorks here and he wonders why sensible people don't contribute much on Getbig.

It is one thing to post a true theory and quite another to dismiss a false one. Unless you go to failure most of the time you simply will not grow. Oh, you might grow as a beginner but after the intermediate stage you will stop. This is when being right is absolutely required.
Sounds like some senile type of bullshit you're spewing here, have you forgotten you Alzheimers meds again?



I've never lied about anything you fat swamp beast.

 The only time I lied was when I fucked your mom. She asked me if her pussy stank like rotton tuna and I said "No, of course not. It smells great."
Well since you showed up right after my dad blew in her..........did you enoy the taste of my potential brothers and sisters?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: big L dawg on February 12, 2011, 06:31:26 PM
Maybe if he stuck the test into his buttcheek instead of between them it would work better.

no doubt
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 12, 2011, 07:11:35 PM
WW
who the fuck are you? Ed mcmahon.......

Oh shit.   ROFLMAO
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Firemuscle on February 12, 2011, 07:14:11 PM
BALLOONEY OF A FAT DIRTBIKE RIDING KID WHO NEVER WAS ABLE TO GAIN MUCH FROM A SHITLOAD OF AAS. TRYING TO CONVINCE HIMSELF TTHAT ASS IS NOT THE KEY ,THAT STRENGTH IS THE KEY BUT NO FRIENDS MORE AAS= MORE GAINS ADD HGHONA AND YOU HAVE MUTATION TO HIGHER DEGREE...,,, UNLESS YOU HHAVE VERY BAD GENES. UNLESS YOUR GENETICS IS TO STAY FAT AND TAKES COCKS UP IN THE ASS FOR A DEEP TISSUE MASSAGE..,,      DISMISSED,,

 I think I agree with this.

 Tbombz physique is not impressive considering how long he's been on drugs. I think he must be doing something wrong.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 12, 2011, 07:31:09 PM
Well, you are spot on with the statement that PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD is the key, but the question is how to make it happen. So if one doesn't train to failure how does one know for certain to increase one's training weights? Is it only by feeling that one is ready to increase the training load? I don't know man, but in my opinion one of the components of training til failure is to allow one to know that they are indeed ready to increase their training load. For example if one does 6 to 8 reps per set and they find that they can do 10 reps with a given weight then that's a "signal" for them to increase their training weight.
increase the weight as often as you can. you still use rep ranges as a signal tht your ready to move up. but you stay away from failure. when you can lift a weight 4-5 times while staying at least 2 reps shy of failure, then you are ready for probably about a 20lb weight increase in my experience, and could probably get that weight for one easy rep. then the workout after maybe 2.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Firemuscle on February 12, 2011, 07:32:38 PM
increase the weight as often as you can. you still use rep ranges as a signal tht your ready to move up. but you stay away from failure. when you can lift a weight 4-5 times while staying at least 2 reps shy of failure, then you are ready for probably about a 20lb weight increase in my experience, and could probably get that weight for one easy rep. then the workout after maybe 2.

 Post a pic to show us the results.

 Let's see a three quarter turn bicep shot while you are holding your dildo in your hand. That would be epic.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: big L dawg on February 12, 2011, 09:17:05 PM
WW
Oh shit.   ROFLMAO

 ;D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 12, 2011, 10:44:30 PM
;D

fuckin A you guys are pissing me off   >:(
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: spinnis on February 12, 2011, 10:47:59 PM
tbombz im trying to be nice, but considiring your results while being on aas for years. you're on no positioing to be giing out any sort of advice unless you want us to do to the exact opposite...
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 12, 2011, 11:40:11 PM
tbombz im trying to be nice, but considiring your results while being on aas for years. you're on no positioing to be giing out any sort of advice unless you want us to do to the exact opposite...
its all good, your 5'5" ~150lbs and have a right to your opinion  :)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 13, 2011, 12:06:24 AM
increase the weight as often as you can. you still use rep ranges as a signal tht your ready to move up. but you stay away from failure. when you can lift a weight 4-5 times while staying at least 2 reps shy of failure, then you are ready for probably about a 20lb weight increase in my experience, and could probably get that weight for one easy rep. then the workout after maybe 2.

Seems to me the lads need some instruction in hypertrophy 101. What you wrote above is both dangerous and naive. Lifting heavy weights isn't great for the joints. What kind of progression is adding 20 pounds and doing 1 rep? That might work for power lifters but has no place in bodybuilding.  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Coach is Back! on February 13, 2011, 12:08:30 AM
Seems to me the lads need some instruction in hypertrophy 101. What you wrote above is both dangerous and naive. Lifting heavy weights isn't great for the joints. What kind of progression is adding 20 pounds and doing 1 rep? That might work for power lifters but has no place in bodybuilding.  

Just stick with "machines"....right Vince?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 13, 2011, 02:18:52 AM
Hey Vince, your theroy of hyperthropy is something along the lines of high volume and high frequency right? And now I see you mentioning the need to train to failure, so riddle me this... How in the fuck could a natural trainer be able to recover from this style of training? Seems to me, that if a natural trainer actually followed your particular training style, he would get smaller and weaker. Also, low reps (not more than 8 or 10 reps max) and heavy weights work MUCH BETTER for causing a natural trainers muscles to hyperthropy.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: magicuser on February 13, 2011, 02:32:12 AM
pics of transformation using your methods?

high volume seems key

despite elfves gold of HIT
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 13, 2011, 02:32:43 AM
It pleases me that there are so many world authorities on Getbig. What can I say?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 13, 2011, 02:43:25 AM
Ok, but you still didn't answer my question Vince. By the way, these ideas that I have about the methods for a naturals hyperthory are not my ideas and/or theroies, they are the ideas/theroies of Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer, regarding volume, intensity, and frequency.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: WillGrant on February 13, 2011, 02:45:59 AM
The flotsam here wouldn't know the correct theory because they already have their pet theories. Cleansing the brains of the simple-minded is no easy task. 

Clearly the Op has no clue about hypertrophy and neither do most of the blokes here.  
most of the blokes here are disagreeing with him to  ???
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 13, 2011, 04:12:31 AM
Ok, but you still didn't answer my question Vince. By the way, these ideas that I have about the methods for a naturals hyperthory are not my ideas and/or theroies, they are the ideas/theroies of Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer, regarding volume, intensity, and frequency.

Both Mike and Arthur were highly intelligent blokes. Arthur was not a bodybuilder. Mike embraced HIT after he was already big. I think HIT can be used to retain large muscles but it is hard on the joints.

Arthur got it wrong about volume. Don't forget he was primarily a salesman and had his Nautilus machines to sell. In the 1970s he put long ads in Ironman Magazine. Sometimes those ads were like a mini booklet. It all made sense according to Jones' logic. Unfortunately, he was wrong about the requirements of hypertrophy. So was Mike. Neither was a good scientist. Arthur actually rejected most scientists in exercise science.

About going to failure. I don't mean in the extreme sense that Arthur suggested where no possible movement can be performed. I mean in the sense that you go until you can't do any more reps. Then repeat that weight for many more sets all going to the point of failure. This is what will stimulate hypertrophy. Keep the reps higher both to get a pump and to keep the form better. If you start out at 15 reps then by the 3rd maximum set you might be down to 9 or 10 reps. If you go heavy and use about 5 reps your form will suffer and you will start cheating by recruiting other muscles to help you complete your reps.

This will work for naturals. You have to eat a lot to gain muscle.  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 13, 2011, 04:19:31 AM
Genetics determines the size of your muscles, not the way you train
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: lovemonkey on February 13, 2011, 04:23:30 AM
Funny how Basil likes to talk bad about cocky and confident people when he himself comes across as the most arrogant douche in this thread. Pot meet kettle.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: local hero on February 13, 2011, 04:24:33 AM
the role genetics play is true upto a point... if your a very messy or lazy trainer youl never reach potential tho
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 13, 2011, 05:06:05 AM
Funny how Basile likes to talk bad about cocky and confident people when he himself comes across as the most arrogant douche in this thread. Pot meet kettle.

I try to help misguided and ignorant people. If knuckleheads think they are right then they need help and correcting and should be grateful.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 13, 2011, 05:17:10 AM
Ok Vince, so you are saying that hyperthropy happens as the result of both training til failure and performing a high volume of sets right? I don't know man, but if I tried something like that I am certain that it would just make me smaller and weaker. I believe that Mentzer had it right when he introduced his "Ideal Routine" in his book Heavy Duty 2: Mind and Body. This routine is basically an Upper/Lower split with workouts being performed every 4 or 5 days.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 13, 2011, 05:26:03 AM
Ok Vince, so you are saying that hyperthropy happens as the result of both training til failure and performing a high volume of sets right? I don't know man, but if I tried something like that I am certain that it would just make me smaller and weaker. I believe that Mentzer had it right when he introduced his "Ideal Routine" in his book Heavy Duty 2: Mind and Body. This routine is basically an Upper/Lower split with workouts being performed every 4 or 5 days.

I am talking about causing hypertrophy in a muscle, not training the whole body. That is where most fail. If you try to do too much your system will somehow prevent you from continuing such activities. So what I suggest is to do parts of the body and get them to grow. Muscles adjoining the target muscles will get stimulated and your whole upper body, for example, will grow. Try close grip pulldowns to the top of the chest alternated with lying triceps extension with upper arms on pads. Do this routine every third day for a couple of weeks and see how you go. You don't do anything else in the gym. Once you know how to make your muscles grow and keep them growing you can apply these methods to other muscle groups. If you honestly don't grow and you are eating plenty of food then take up swimming or table tennis.

If you follow this protocol you will grow and grow rapidly. If you are not growing rapidly then something is wrong with your training or you are not eating enough. You have to get your muscles sore after each workout. This is the key.  Finding effective exercises is not that easy. Sometimes exercises work up to a point then are ineffective and have to be replaced. This is where experience helps.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: kiwiol on February 13, 2011, 05:37:12 AM
Basile is spot on. If you are on drugs, you're going to grow as long as you lift something, with the people with better genetics making more gains than others who aren't so "gifted".

If you are natural, then you have to train to failure and sometimes, beyond, by way of drop sets, negatives etc. I've always trained to failure and done drop sets on most exercises, and have got great results over the years. You just have to make sure you eat and rest enough/properly in between workouts.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: oldtimer1 on February 13, 2011, 05:47:06 AM
Failure should be a tool in your arsenal but not the primary one.  If you have 10,20 or 30 years training under your belt should you try to hit failure every set?

Imagine a coach telling his runners, We will run three miles every Monday.  I want you to beat that time from the week before every time or die trying.  Tuesday it's 8 x 400 meters.  Again I want you to beat  last weeks time and so on for the rest of the week.  Maybe this could be a viable option the month before competition but for a training year?

Going to failure all the time is a proper method for a beginner or a guy with a few years of training under his belt.  After that it's a tool that should be used periodically or in certain cycles.  What power lifter or Olympic lifter trains to failure at every workout?  I'll answer that, none.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: ForgottenMuscle on February 13, 2011, 05:50:11 AM
Use FullBody workouts only.
Use mostly compound exercises.
Keep the length of each workout within one hour.
Think outside the sets and reps regimen.
Use as strict form as possible.
Positive part of the movement slow/medium speed, eccentric part fast/medium fast without bouncing at the bottom part.
Instead concentrate on feeling the mechanical load on the muscle itself.
Stay just within point of concentric failure.Do not go all out.
Focus on creating deep muscle microtrauma.

Increase the load each and every workout.
Before starting a training period, decondition all muscles as much as possible. Relax, stay in bed.
End the trainingcycle when the progression of the mechanical load becomes too heavy to complete under strict form.
Continue with the maximum weight for continued static stretches under load, for as long as can possibly be endured.

Working out every 36 hours is optimal.
One can train through musclesoreness of previous workout(s) without hindering further muscular hypertrophy.

Do not perform cardio or other physical activities.

Eat each 3 hour period a small balanced meal,high protein, medium fat, medium in slow carb,
Before and after workout, high in fast protein and carb sources.Total daily calories just above maintenance.
Bodybuilding is a longterm commitment in order to get the results desired.

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 13, 2011, 05:52:35 AM
Basile is spot on. If you are on drugs, you're going to grow as long as you lift something, with the people with better genetics making more gains than others who aren't so "gifted".

If you are natural, then you have to train to failure and sometimes, beyond, by way of drop sets, negatives etc. I've always trained to failure and done drop sets on most exercises, and have got great results over the years. You just have to make sure you eat and rest enough/properly in between workouts.

There are many strategies to stimulate hypertrophy. However, I believe doing many sets with the maximum resistance is the key. There is no need to do drop sets. Never reduce the resistance. Take a short rest and keep training with the same weight. Growth will follow.

Arthur Jones made a lot of sense in the old days. He influenced everyone because no one wanted to be thought stupid for training too long. I probably stopped too soon and that prevented me from growing really big. By stopping too soon I mean in the number of sets with the maximum resistance. 5, 6 or 10 sets is what is required.  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 13, 2011, 05:57:08 AM
So what about Mentzer's idea of regulating volume and frequency downword as one progresses in order to properly eliminate "sticking points" and to make continous and unabated progress? According to him, one should make progress and make gains every single workout, and if one doesn't make progress every single workout than this is a clear indication that something is wrong with their training routine.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: no one on February 13, 2011, 06:06:44 AM
Genetics determines the size of your muscles, not the way you train

i dont agree completely, but dont completely disagree either- i think both play a significant role.

my shoulders used to be my worst body part. they lagged behind everything else. i made it a priority to bring them up, started training them a variety of ways till i found a routine that made them grow- turns out they like high volume/ high reps. now they are caught up with the rest of my body and still growing well.

had i not made the effort to discover this, i could have just as easily though i just have bad genetics for building shoulders.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: kiwiol on February 13, 2011, 06:36:16 AM
There are many strategies to stimulate hypertrophy. However, I believe doing many sets with the maximum resistance is the key. There is no need to do drop sets. Never reduce the resistance. Take a short rest and keep training with the same weight. Growth will follow.

Arthur Jones made a lot of sense in the old days. He influenced everyone because no one wanted to be thought stupid for training too long. I probably stopped too soon and that prevented me from growing really big. By stopping too soon I mean in the number of sets with the maximum resistance. 5, 6 or 10 sets is what is required.  

I agree there is no need to do drop sets. In fact, I wasn't right when I said you HAVE to train to failure if you're natural. But that's what I do and it's always given me great results.

"Many sets with maximum resistance is the key" - Absolutely.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 13, 2011, 06:41:31 AM
So what about Mentzer's idea of regulating volume and frequency downword as one progresses in order to properly eliminate "sticking points" and to make continous and unabated progress? According to him, one should make progress and make gains every single workout, and if one doesn't make progress every single workout than this is a clear indication that something is wrong with their training routine.

Mentzer pushed Heavy Duty because he made money from it. The HIT is false and it is a pity. Some people swear by it but I have given it a good go and know it can't sustain hypertrophy. Yes, gains will occur every workout with my method. I don't wait for a muscle to recover. Instead, I keep it growing continuously. Volume will remain high and frequency stays the same. Every 3rd day without exception. You should be getting stronger, too, and that is the progressive part.

If you want to argue hypertrophy instead of growing then continue believing what Mentzer said.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: YoungBlood on February 13, 2011, 07:04:56 AM
Failure has it's place in your training program(s). But like anything, do not use it too often or too frequently.

Regarding hypertrophy and what will stimulate your muscles to grow and whether or not you use drop sets, failure or any other host of techniques depends on your amount of training volume, how often you train, sleep/recovery, amount of food and of course the old adage "genetics."

Sometimes people use genetics as a cop out. If they don't know what they're doing or something is not working for them, they just say "I guess my genetics suck, I've tried everything! And I mean everything." You then ask them 'What's everything entail?' and they can't tell you or it's far from actually being everything. To them "everything" means either high reps or low reps. Nothing in between.

Muscles respond to Time Under Tension & this is a good way to be able to things consistent enough and be able to later alter your program. Using a specific rep range with a prescribed tempo will give you an approximate idea as to how much time your muscle is under tension. 10rps at a 301 tempo will make the set 40secs long (10 reps multiplied by 4secs per rep). So because you don't go to failure, you won't grow? That is what some here are dictating. The other people are saying you have to make sure you're failing around that 40 second mark in order to grow. What if I did 9 reps equaling 36secs total, but threw in a last failure rep that caused me to only do 37secs total...I must not grow because I went to failure (according to TBombz). Or will I? According to Basile I need failure.

What works? Neither and both!

Instead of saying you tried "everything" and you are still failing to progress in the way you would like, take a look at your program more in depth. Sure, you're lifting 20lbs more on a lift yet still not growing. Maybe you're not growing because even if you're getting 8-10rps (the usual protocol suggested to grow/induce hypertrophy) yet completing that set within 15-20secs, that's why you're not growing. Muscles usually need more than 20-25secs under tension to induce hypertrophy.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 13, 2011, 07:19:29 AM
From my own personal experience, every single time that I got stronger (ie training with a heavier training load) my muscles got bigger, every single time. Now, when you talk about rep speed that is indeed an important point, and I have tried controlled rep speed (3 sec up, 3 sec down) but it didn't work for me, and I madd much better progress doing fast reps.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Meso_z on February 13, 2011, 07:21:52 AM
I train by feel.

If i feel like i can do some forced reps, or negatives or drop sets etc etc etc..i just do it, if not I just do a straight set 1-2 reps shy of failure.

thats it. shock your body.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: FREAKgeek on February 13, 2011, 07:33:33 AM
Going to failure needs to be specified better. Not all failure is the same.

Reaching failure for a 1 rep, 5 rep, 10 rep, or 20+ rep scheme are all a bit metabolically different. Failure is also more taxing
on a compound vs isolation type of exercise. It depends on the nature of the exercise and scheme.

Failure can also just be a result of taking less rest time.

To say that it is all bad, or always bad is just not applicable for all methods.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: YoungBlood on February 13, 2011, 07:45:40 AM
From my own personal experience, every single time that I got stronger (ie training with a heavier training load) my muscles got bigger, every single time. Now, when you talk about rep speed that is indeed an important point, and I have tried controlled rep speed (3 sec up, 3 sec down) but it didn't work for me, and I madd much better progress doing fast reps.

I would then look at your program before and after you tried controlled reps. If you were doing super fast reps before, then switched to controlled reps and then back to fast reps, you probably did see a better improvement with faster reps.

And as found on a regular basis, sometimes peoples goals change as fast as their program does; they say fast reps worked for them, but they also wanted to put 50lbs on their bench too. So because they did faster reps and put weight on like they wanted, they think fast reps are better. But if they had done controlled reps totaling a minutes time per set, and wanted to grow their arms bigger, would they really have the same stance?

My answer would be no.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 13, 2011, 08:45:19 AM
I see your point, and as far as my fast reps were concerned, I would venture to say that they weren't incredibly fast reps ie weight throwing, since they were performed within a 6 to 8 rep max context, meaning that they were quite heavy for me. So if one lifts an 6 to 8 rep max til postive failure, then those reps can not be super fast by nature, since one will be lifting a heavyass weight. One thing that could be valid is to do the negative portion of the lift more slowly, and then explode through the positive part? There is a guy called spade121981 on youtube, and he makes some very good points regarding a slow and controlled negative coupled with a fast and explosive positive.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: johnnynoname on February 13, 2011, 09:00:56 AM
this thread makes 10 pages by the end of next week
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: YoungBlood on February 13, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
I see your point, and as far as my fast reps were concerned, I would venture to say that they weren't incredibly fast reps ie weight throwing, since they were performed within a 6 to 8 rep max context, meaning that they were quite heavy for me. So if one lifts an 6 to 8 rep max til postive failure, then those reps can not be super fast by nature, since one will be lifting a heavyass weight. One thing that could be valid is to do the negative portion of the lift more slowly, and then explode through the positive part? There is a guy called spade121981 on youtube, and he makes some very good points regarding a slow and controlled negative coupled with a fast and explosive positive.

Best thing to do is vary your lifting tempos through a period of time. For 6-10 workouts, do a tempo like 301, and then on the eleventh workout begin another 6-10 workouts (for that muscle to be clear...not 6 workouts total) switching to a 22X tempo. Again, after the workout period is done, switch to another tempo...503 or whatever. Depends on the muscle trained, goals and current programs prescription.

It's usually best if you use a slower negative than a positive, but that does not mean you discount the tempo of the positive being fast all the time. Sometimes it's just good to use a much slower concentric portion to vary the lifting stimulus. This though, is based on specificity of your training goals. A football player that wants to move as much as possible as fast as possible and needs that explosive strength, will find little benefit from doing close grip benches with a tempo of 248. Someone having an issue with getting the bar off his/her chest would benefit from having the 4sec pause though. You will have to decrease weight initially but in the end you will benefit.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 13, 2011, 11:15:16 AM
Here is an excellent quote from this spade fella regarding rep speed, "only the negative needs to be a little slow but you always drive the weight up quick. Banging out more reps will allow better receptor upgrade, higher blood volume, which in turn will carry a larger supply of protein and other nutrients to the muscles... hence the reason you see all top pros doing quick reps."
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: YoungBlood on February 13, 2011, 11:20:17 AM
Here is an excellent quote from this spade fella regarding rep speed, "only the negative needs to be a little slow but you always drive the weight up quick. Banging out more reps will allow better receptor upgrade, higher blood volume, which in turn will carry a larger supply of protein and other nutrients to the muscles... hence the reason you see all top pros doing quick reps."

No idea who the spade fella is that you speak of, is.
You show me a pro that actually trains somewhat correctly and it's not his pharmaceutical programs doing the work, and you will more than likely have fingers left over on your hand from the counting.
I don't care what the pros do. I'm not out to do what they are and their training methods only work for them due and wouldn't work for someone like me. Unless my goal is to be lethargic 24/7.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: local hero on February 13, 2011, 11:30:20 AM
Use FullBody workouts only.
Use mostly compound exercises.
Keep the length of each workout within one hour.
Think outside the sets and reps regimen.
Use as strict form as possible.
Positive part of the movement slow/medium speed, eccentric part fast/medium fast without bouncing at the bottom part.
Instead concentrate on feeling the mechanical load on the muscle itself.
Stay just within point of concentric failure.Do not go all out.
Focus on creating deep muscle microtrauma.

Increase the load each and every workout.
Before starting a training period, decondition all muscles as much as possible. Relax, stay in bed.
End the trainingcycle when the progression of the mechanical load becomes too heavy to complete under strict form.
Continue with the maximum weight for continued static stretches under load, for as long as can possibly be endured.

Working out every 36 hours is optimal.
One can train through musclesoreness of previous workout(s) without hindering further muscular hypertrophy.

Do not perform cardio or other physical activities.

Eat each 3 hour period a small balanced meal,high protein, medium fat, medium in slow carb,
Before and after workout, high in fast protein and carb sources.Total daily calories just above maintenance.
Bodybuilding is a longterm commitment in order to get the results desired.




complete rubbish,,, no one who looks any good trains like this
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: spinnis on February 13, 2011, 11:47:21 AM
its all good, your 5'5" ~150lbs and have a right to your opinion  :)

Ok , Post comparisions to this:

(http://i51.tinypic.com/95vr45.jpg)

(http://i52.tinypic.com/117qtep.jpg)

(http://i53.tinypic.com/1dyiig.jpg)

(http://i55.tinypic.com/2mnjii8.jpg)


And if you cannot even beat this then please SHUT your fucking mouth when it comes to training. OK?!?!

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: flexingtonsteele on February 13, 2011, 12:50:54 PM
Ok , Post comparisions to this:

(http://i51.tinypic.com/95vr45.jpg)

(http://i52.tinypic.com/117qtep.jpg)

(http://i53.tinypic.com/1dyiig.jpg)

(http://i55.tinypic.com/2mnjii8.jpg)


And if you cannot even beat this then please SHUT your fucking mouth when it comes to training. OK?!?!



Good shoulders Swede.

Keep up the good work brother.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 13, 2011, 12:51:58 PM
Ok , Post comparisions to this:

(http://i51.tinypic.com/95vr45.jpg)

(http://i52.tinypic.com/117qtep.jpg)

(http://i53.tinypic.com/1dyiig.jpg)

(http://i55.tinypic.com/2mnjii8.jpg)


And if you cannot even beat this then please SHUT your fucking mouth when it comes to training. OK?!?!




Hahahahahaahaahhaaaa.... the sad thing is he CAN'T beat that and he's been on the gas for YEARS  :D

Thus proving my point that Genetics rule all

look pretty good swede
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Van_Bilderass on February 13, 2011, 12:53:39 PM
I try to help misguided and ignorant people.

And you are beyond help.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Van_Bilderass on February 13, 2011, 12:56:13 PM

Hahahahahaahaahhaaaa.... the sad thing is he CAN'T beat that and he's been on the gas for YEARS  :D

Thus proving my point that Genetics rule all

look pretty good swede

As if little Swede hasn't used hormones ever. Says tbombz has poor steroid response. As opposed to Swede's response which was magnificent - so magnificent he had to buy Accutane off the black market to try to stop the horrible acne.

Ask him to deny it.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 13, 2011, 12:59:47 PM
As if little Swede hasn't used hormones ever. Says tbombz has poor steroid response. As opposed to Swede's response which was magnificent - so magnificent he had to buy Accutane off the black market to try to stop the horrible acne.

Ask him to deny it.

Doesn't change the fact that Tbombz comes off like he's a seasoned national competitor when in reality he looks like a soft, stocky guy that uses a little creatine
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: spinnis on February 13, 2011, 01:01:12 PM
Good shoulders Swede.

Keep up the good work brother.

that was when I was serious about gym training, Now its endurance training from my part so I dont look like that atm in good shape though

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Van_Bilderass on February 13, 2011, 01:07:09 PM
Doesn't change the fact that Tbombz comes off like he's a seasoned national competitor when in reality he looks like a soft, stocky guy that uses a little creatine


Haven't seen any good pics of the guy so hard to judge how much real muscle he has.

Maybe he comes off as too cock-sure of stuff. And sure, had he done a show he would most likely have a different perspective of things.

But sometimes even a person with a poor physique can know things, can be right.

Take Basile. Likes to think of himself as an expert while looking like a fat old guy with thick forearms. Like perhaps a manual laborer who never did any gym training. I happen to think he's a fool, but if I agreed that he knew what he talked about I'd look past the physique.

Sometimes people with great physiques know very little about training, and even less how to help someone else, someone with poor genetics.

Judge the info itself, judge it based on what you've seen, experienced, etc.

I myself would take training tips from this guy. And I'm 2-3 times as strong as him, and a lot heavier than he ever was.

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 13, 2011, 01:15:13 PM
Haven't seen any good pics of the guy so hard to judge how much real muscle he has.

Maybe he comes off as too cock-sure of stuff. And sure, had he done a show he would most likely have a different perspective of things.

But sometimes even a person with a poor physique can know things, can be right.

Take Basile. Likes to think of himself as an expert while looking like a fat old guy with thick forearms. Like perhaps a manual laborer who never did any gym training. I happen to think he's a fool, but if I agreed that he knew what he talked about I'd look past the physique.

Sometimes people with great physiques know very little about training, and even less how to help someone else, someone with poor genetics.

Judge the info itself, judge it based on what you've seen, experienced, etc.

I myself would take training tips from this guy. And I'm 2-3 times as strong as him, and a lot heavier than he ever was.



I don't take training tips from anyone, training is simple once you get the general concept down, which you can do in a couple of months if you are not an idiot.

Work hard in the gym, make sure you get enough rest....if you have the genes for it something will happen

end of story
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: kiwiol on February 13, 2011, 01:18:39 PM
I don't take training tips from anyone, training is simple once you get the general concept down, which you can do in a couple of months if you are not an idiot.

Work hard in the gym, make sure you get enough rest....if you have the genes for it something will happen

end of story

I agree. People who endlessly discuss it and are forever looking for new ways to add muscle or get stronger seldom end up gaining anything.

Anyone who talks too much about getting anything done, for that matter.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Van_Bilderass on February 13, 2011, 01:21:11 PM
I don't take training tips from anyone, training is simple once you get the general concept down, which you can do in a couple of months if you are not an idiot.

Work hard in the gym, make sure you get enough rest....if you have the genes for it something will happen

end of story

You don't need tips on training as you have great genetics and are on drugs. You'll grow doing anything. :D
And it would be a mistake for a natural twink to ask you anything training related. You'd kill his enthusiasm saying, "you've been training for 2 months and nothing's happened... it'll never happen. Go do something else". :D

But yeah, genetics is everything. And if you want to look like a bodybuilder you'll need drugs as well. Twinks such as myself can get pretty strong though, and there's lots of tricks to employ if that's what you want (strength).
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 13, 2011, 01:31:52 PM
Some people are incapable of adding much size beyond the intermediate stage. I have seen hundreds of these guys over the years. If someone has read the magazines and books about training then they usually have the vocabulary but no clue about who to believe or what to do. These guys haven't paid their dues and are not strong and they are unlikely to ever get big. So they continue to pursue the knowledge that might help them and go from system to system without the experience to help them assess methods and protocols. Some guys do what you tell them but still can't make target muscles grow. These people somehow cheat and don't put enough tension on the muscles they want to grow. There are a lot of these people around.

Groink is completely wrong about training. Some methods work better than others. What is working 'hard'? How much rest is needed? How do you know if you have the genes for large muscles? General bodybuilding is simple but effective sustaining bodybuilding quite another thing. The methods used to get to the intermediate stage might not be sufficient to get past this stage.

I posted on Lyle Macdonald's forum in the past. He refused to debate hypertrophy with me. So what if he is intelligent. He wasn't a bodybuilder of note and never distilled what hypertrophy was all about. It takes experience to know what to do. If you don't get reasonably big and strong you literally won't know what to do or how to assess programs, exercises, protocols, etc. He took up endurance events because he got more success in that endeavour. When you have paid your dues you instantly know when someone is knowledgeable and also who isn't.  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Van_Bilderass on February 13, 2011, 01:41:04 PM

I posted on Lyle Macdonald's forum in the past. He refused to debate hypertrophy with me. So what if he is intelligent. He wasn't a bodybuilder of note and never distilled what hypertrophy was all about.

He did distill it. I agree with what he's said, that we know what makes a muscle grow, it's just minutiae and mapping of exact pathways that's left. None of which will really change how we approach training. He debated you plenty, but since you talk in circles and never make a definitive statement it's almost impossible to have any kind of debate.

Reason Lyle never looked like a bb wasn't because he didn't know how to train. He didn't want to take drugs like you did, for whatever reason, and his genetics just suck. Even from that t-shirt pic you can see how horrible his arm muscle insertions are.

Experience is valuable no doubt. But useful info can come from many places. Dan Duchaine pioneered bodybuilding drug use but he never made the drugs work for himself. He looked like shit.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 13, 2011, 01:42:11 PM
hey, if any of you guys are getting good results with what your doing currently. then by all means stick with that. for those of you who have looked the same for the past year or more even though youve been training hard, eating right, juicing(or natural)....    trust me on this one and give it a shot. just for one workout. if you dont notice progress in one workout, drop it. but stick to my advice completely. lift HEAVY. good form. keeps reps low. stay at l;east 2-3 reps shy of failure. the idea here is to stimulate the muscle to grow big. not to break the muscle down.  


it really depresses me that so many of you seemt o think you know everything and yet almost none of you ever make any progress whatsoever. there are guys on this boartd who know a shit ton about training and keep it to themselves because they dont want to have to deal with all this bullshit of trying to convince you guys when they aree only tryingt o help.


btw, olympic weightlifters dont train to fialure.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 13, 2011, 01:45:35 PM
He did distill it. I agree with what he's said, that we know what makes a muscle grow, it's just minutiae and mapping of exact pathways that's left. None of which will really change how we approach training. He debated you plenty, but since you talk in circles and never make a definitive statement it's almost impossible to have any kind of debate.

Reason Lyle never looked like a bb wasn't because he didn't know how to train. He didn't want to take drugs like you did, for whatever reason, and his genetics just suck. Even from that t-shirt pic you can see how horrible his arm muscle insertions are.

Experience is valuable no doubt. But useful info can come from many places. Dan Duchaine pioneered bodybuilding drug use but he never made the drugs work for himself. He looked like shit.

van nothing special happens at failure you know this, youve said it before. but in reality, somethign does happen at failure, and its the opposite of special, its muscle damage and a buildup of lactic acid/other bad shit that interferes with muscle growth, decreases strength, etc.


whats the most important factor for hypertrophy? me and you both know its loa.d going to failure does nothing.  higher reps,pumping the muscle can increase glycogen, etc.

dont get into great bodybuilders who trained pump style. those guys were on boat loads of drugs had great genetics and even still  they may not have lifted heavy, but they had the ability to lift heavy when they wanted to. strong muscle=big muscle.

load=#1 importanmt factor.
2 important factor= frequency, diet,

and ofc ourse results are always much better on hormones
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 13, 2011, 01:59:48 PM
What's funny about my own personal case is that I make progress literally in spite of myself due to my own goddamn stuborness. What's funny is that I just know that "the answer" is training with heavier and heavier training loads ie PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD, so I just keep on pressing on towards that goal, and my goddamn stuborness and drive eventually takes me there. And Van makes a very good point. Find someone who has greatly improved a serious weak point of theirs and then ask them how they did it. The gifted guys aren't the ones to ask for training advice, the ones to ask are the ones who overcame their poor genetics.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 13, 2011, 02:12:12 PM
When I began training in 1958 I read that you had to tear muscles down to grow. That is exactly what happens. A certain kind of damage is both desirable and necessary for rapid growth. Lactic acid accumulation is probably part of the process. Ask Larry Scott. What I recommend is to damage the muscle so that you are sore for several days. Retrain the muscle even harder on the 3rd day while still sore. Result is rapid hypertrophy.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: SHOULDERS on February 13, 2011, 02:48:08 PM
tbombz you've come a long way from the fat kid on the dirtbike. you've always been honest, even admitting to taking guy's dicks right up your ass . why is it that a guy that never had probs posting his pics and being truthful is so fucking afraid to post pics after all this training and long, long cycle?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Marty Champions on February 13, 2011, 02:52:27 PM
keep up the good work swede !
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 13, 2011, 03:08:57 PM

btw, olympic weightlifters dont train to fialure.

If you don't understand why this one statement destroys your entire argument than there's not much anyone can say at this point.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Van_Bilderass on February 13, 2011, 03:21:36 PM
van nothing special happens at failure you know this, youve said it before. but in reality, somethign does happen at failure, and its the opposite of special, its muscle damage and a buildup of lactic acid/other bad shit that interferes with muscle growth, decreases strength, etc.


whats the most important factor for hypertrophy? me and you both know its loa.d going to failure does nothing.  higher reps,pumping the muscle can increase glycogen, etc.

dont get into great bodybuilders who trained pump style. those guys were on boat loads of drugs had great genetics and even still  they may not have lifted heavy, but they had the ability to lift heavy when they wanted to. strong muscle=big muscle.

load=#1 importanmt factor.
2 important factor= frequency, diet,

and ofc ourse results are always much better on hormones


Yes load is the main factor. But like I said in another thread, whether going to failure is good or bad depends on the exercise. Today I did some triceps and was thinking of this. I know from experience that I get no training effect from pushdowns if I stop 2-3 reps from failure. It's just not taxing enough, muscularly or neurally. I don't get stronger. Stopping 2-3 reps shy of failure would be enough if de-trained but after 2-3 workouts I have to push harder. On the other hand, going to absolute failure on squats for example may kill all strength progression for weeks.

After a long training career you learn how hard you need to push to get to a certain level. One exercise harder, another not so hard. Going to failure is not the trigger like Mentzer claimed, nothing special happens, but sometimes going to failure is advantageous, and sometimes going beyond that is as well.

Progressively increasing loads is important. Lots of people will argue this but no one really believes it. Everyone keeps at least a little track of their training loads, even if they are "pumpers". You ask a pumper how their workout went and they may say, "great workout, today I squatted 350 for 30", for example. If load had no bearing why mention it?  :D

Yes you can be a great bb training with relatively small loads. Drugs, drug response and muscle shape is all more important than training but we're talking training and the effect from training only, not whether drugs or training is more important. In this context load progression matters.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 13, 2011, 03:54:28 PM
Some of you make me chuckle. Tdongz especially. You can't go around making statements such as "nothing happens at failure" and then proceed to say it's best to train 2-3 reps before so. Why 2-3 reps before failure? Why not 4-5 reps before failure if it's so bad? Hell, why don't we just actually do 3 reps entirely, even if we would fail at 12? You can only gauge so much from this kind of guessing game. Also, what about your three levels of strength? You aren't going to be maximising strength and size gains if you are only scraping your current concentric ability, let alone your eccentric ability! Also Tdongz, you've been juiced up for a while now, your perception of what is giving you the best gains is shrouded by the fact that you are already altering/bypassing the body's natural growth mechanism.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 13, 2011, 04:03:25 PM
You don't need tips on training as you have great genetics and are on drugs. You'll grow doing anything. :D
And it would be a mistake for a natural twink to ask you anything training related. You'd kill his enthusiasm saying, "you've been training for 2 months and nothing's happened... it'll never happen. Go do something else". :D

But yeah, genetics is everything. And if you want to look like a bodybuilder you'll need drugs as well. Twinks such as myself can get pretty strong though, and there's lots of tricks to employ if that's what you want (strength).

Two months is a bit premature.

But if you have been training consistently and eating right for a year and not much is happening, yeah you might want to pick up another hobby.

That's IF your goal is to be a very big, very muscular person....if you enjoy lifting for lifting's sake and do it for health reasons and to get stronger, by all means have at it.

I get asked every single day of my life, "what do you do for XXXXXXXX ?"

Same thing you do.....there are no "secret training protocols that will have you EXPLODING with new muscle growth!!!!!!"

Unless you read a lot of FLEX magazine   8) ;D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 13, 2011, 04:13:13 PM
Ok , Post comparisions to this:

(http://i51.tinypic.com/95vr45.jpg)

(http://i52.tinypic.com/117qtep.jpg)

(http://i53.tinypic.com/1dyiig.jpg)

(http://i55.tinypic.com/2mnjii8.jpg)


And if you cannot even beat this then please SHUT your fucking mouth when it comes to training. OK?!?!


sure, here, this are from when i was 17 and natty..  so the comparison is fair..   :)

(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=106479.0;attach=118186)

(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=120003.0;attach=136620)

(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=120003.0;attach=135758)

 :-*
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 13, 2011, 04:18:58 PM
sure, here, this are from when i was 17 and natty..  so the comparison is fair..   :)

(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=106479.0;attach=118186)

(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=120003.0;attach=136620)

(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=120003.0;attach=135758)

 :-*

actually he is much thicker than you....but then again he's only 19 inches tall.

 At bbing contests in Sweden they use him as the trophy...the audience loves it.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 13, 2011, 04:22:03 PM
actually he is much thicker than you....but then again he's only 19 inches tall.

 At bbing contests in Sweden they use him as the trophy...the audience loves it.
look at the back double bi comparison. in his other pic, like the one he is flexing his arm from the side, its all angle. hes got no size what so ever
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 13, 2011, 04:28:40 PM
look at the back double bi comparison. in his other pic, like the one he is flexing his arm from the side, its all angle. hes got no size what so ever


actually the BDB is the one shot where he's not using trick angles....I agree about the rest though.

But he carries more muscle than you in those shots. which is fine being that you are 17 in them and he's a grown (Hahahahaahaa :D) man on steroids. and you still hold your own
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 13, 2011, 04:30:36 PM
he's a grown (Hahahahaahaa :D) man on steroids. and you still hold your own
Swedes a juicer? Nahhh....
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: 225for70 on February 13, 2011, 04:32:14 PM
Tbombz has good genetics for having a Huge ass Biscuit shaped dome piece.

GH15 approved
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 13, 2011, 04:35:08 PM
Swedes a juicer? Nahhh....

I have no clue....but everyone and their mother accuses me so i figure I'll return the favor.



JUICHEAD  :)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 13, 2011, 04:36:24 PM
actually the BDB is the one shot where he's not using trick angles....I agree about the rest though.

But he carries more muscle than you in those shots. which is fine being that you are 17 in them and he's a grown (Hahahahaahaa :D) man on steroids. and you still hold your own
thats what i was saying. look at the back double bi pic and compare it to mine. cuz the other ones are all angle.

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 13, 2011, 04:36:53 PM
Yes load is the main factor. But like I said in another thread, whether going to failure is good or bad depends on the exercise. Today I did some triceps and was thinking of this. I know from experience that I get no training effect from pushdowns if I stop 2-3 reps from failure. It's just not taxing enough, muscularly or neurally. I don't get stronger. Stopping 2-3 reps shy of failure would be enough if de-trained but after 2-3 workouts I have to push harder. On the other hand, going to absolute failure on squats for example may kill all strength progression for weeks.


Once your arms are about 17 1/2 inches the pressdowns no longer stimulate hypertrophy. This is where experience is needed. You have to do something else. The best exercises are known but not universally. So many guys look at magazines or copy what others do in the gym. I swear these things are embraced like viruses. It takes experience and scientific training to get rid of ineffective exercises. You also have to get rid of dangerous exercises and ones that don't benefit bodybuilders like deadlifts. Most muscleheads are so stubborn and thick that they literally wouldn't see the truth if it hit them over the head. That is how ingrained theories and methods are in most people who lift weights. They believe things like religious beliefs. When this occurs reason and logic go out the window never to return. They insist on using free weights and all manner of other rubbish. They consume pointless amounts of expensive protein. They argue until the cows come home but are not big and never will be. When all fails they take drugs. When that fails they take more drugs. When they reach plateaus they insist it is all genetics. Ah, the folly of lifting weights. What a complete waste of time to debate this topic with most people.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 13, 2011, 04:38:53 PM
Once your arms are about 17 1/2 inches the pressdowns no longer stimulate hypertrophy.
I quit reading right here cause it's quite obvious you are a dolt.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 13, 2011, 04:40:27 PM
I quit reading right here cause it's quite obvious you are a dolt.
;D  x2
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 13, 2011, 04:44:07 PM
Once your arms are about 17 1/2 inches the pressdowns no longer stimulate hypertrophy. This is where experience is needed. You have to do something else. The best exercises are known but not universally. So many guys look at magazines or copy what others do in the gym. I swear these things are embraced like viruses. It takes experience and scientific training to get rid of ineffective exercises. You also have to get rid of dangerous exercises and ones that don't benefit bodybuilders like deadlifts. Most muscleheads are so stubborn and thick that they literally wouldn't see the truth if it hit them over the head. That is how ingrained theories and methods are in most people who lift weights. They believe things like religious beliefs. When this occurs reason and logic go out the window never to return. They insist on using free weights and all manner of other rubbish. They consume pointless amounts of expensive protein. They argue until the cows come home but are not big and never will be. When all fails they take drugs. When that fails they take more drugs. When they reach plateaus they insist it is all genetics. Ah, the folly of lifting weights. What a complete waste of time to debate this topic with most people.




17 1/2 inches is the cutoff huh ??

LOLOLOLOL.

Care to explain how you came to this conclusion ??
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 13, 2011, 04:44:31 PM
;D  x2
WTF like there's some magic number your body recognizes and shut off the acceptance of an exercise.

Geez, glad he didn't post his theories on hypertrophy......I'll be sure to steer clear of that crap.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 13, 2011, 04:46:11 PM
WTF like there's some magic number your body recognizes and shut off the acceptance of an exercise.

Geez, glad he didn't post his theories on hypertrophy......I'll be sure to steer clear of that crap.

I would have to say that's in the running for "stupidest thing I've ever read on Getbig"
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 13, 2011, 04:49:12 PM
I would have to say that's in the running for "stupidest thing I've ever read on Getbig"
Definitely top ten material.......but at the moment I can't think of anything stupider. ;D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: 225for70 on February 13, 2011, 05:06:39 PM
Yao ming has 18.25 arms. ???
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 13, 2011, 05:12:40 PM
Definitely top ten material.......but at the moment I can't think of anything stupider. ;D

Yes the dreaded 17 1/2 inch barrier.....the guy who solves that is going to be a rich man
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 13, 2011, 05:29:57 PM
The specifics of hypertrophy stimulation are rather simple but the application of the technology filled with complications and difficulties. When movement is involved joints don't stay where they are supposed to stay and this phenomenon gets worse the heavier the resistance. Triceps should be trained when in a stretched position and the upper arms should be restricted from moving outward or upward. Even on proper equipment people cheat. They use too much weight so form disappears and the effectiveness with it. You need a good brain to get big. If you lack one with sufficient experience then there is little hope you will succeed. You can recruit someone with more experience but there are no guarantees in bodybuilding. You can think you are doing the same thing but might miss the mark in one way or another.

Anyone with deep experience wouldn't laugh at the details I have posted. Knuckleheads and wannabes are oblivious so see humour instead of being enlightened.  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 13, 2011, 05:35:51 PM
The specifics of hypertrophy stimulation are rather simple but the application of the technology filled with complications and difficulties. When movement is involved joints don't stay where they are supposed to stay and this phenomenon gets worse the heavier the resistance. Triceps should be trained when in a stretched position and the upper arms should be restricted from moving outward or upward. Even on proper equipment people cheat. They use too much weight so form disappears and the effectiveness with it. You need a good brain to get big. If you lack one with sufficient experience then there is little hope you will succeed. You can recruit someone with more experience but there are no guarantees in bodybuilding. You can think you are doing the same thing but might miss the mark in one way or another.

Anyone with deep experience wouldn't laugh at the details I have posted. Knuckleheads and wannabes are oblivious so see humour instead of being enlightened.  

Nonsense......muscles contract, period.

put them under a load, be it a square piece of iron attached to a cable...or a round piece of iron on a bar.....they can't tell the difference they just do their job.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 13, 2011, 05:48:12 PM
So many clueless guys here. Predictable but sad just the same. Bodybuilders as a group are stupid. No doubt about that and confirmed hourly on Getbig.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 13, 2011, 05:49:27 PM
if font = navy blue
: scroll past
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 13, 2011, 05:52:28 PM
So many clueless guys here. Predictable but sad just the same. Bodybuilders as a group are stupid. No doubt about that and confirmed hourly on Getbig.

and yet in my stupidity i've managed to get up to 250 muscular pounds, but i have no clue  ::)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 13, 2011, 06:48:52 PM
Occasionally some clueless guys get quite big. A mystery but it happens. Many who get big cannot articulate a theory of hypertrophy.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 13, 2011, 06:54:51 PM
Occasionally some clueless guys get quite big. A mystery but it happens. Many who get big cannot articulate a theory of hypertrophy.

I've articulated my theory many times :

Genetics trump all....train hard, give it 100% in the gym and allow ample time for recuperation...what "training protocol" you employ is really academic.

 Your muscles will grow if you are pre-disposed to being muscular. If not.......well  :P
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: el numero uno on February 13, 2011, 06:55:49 PM
Occasionally some clueless guys get quite big. A mystery but it happens. Many who get big cannot articulate a theory of hypertrophy.

There's a guy in my gym who call "sets" to the number of "reps". The dumbass says "i'm going to do 5 reps of 10 sets", I can guarantee you he's no joking, but the guy has a decent build. Well, bodybuilding is not rocket science, like groink says, some people just have it, and some people just don't have it.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 13, 2011, 07:52:35 PM
I've articulated my theory many times :

Genetics trump all....train hard, give it 100% in the gym and allow ample time for recuperation...what "training protocol" you employ is really academic.

 Your muscles will grow if you are pre-disposed to being muscular. If not.......well  :P

What kind of theory is that? No detail at all. What we need is a theory that will make everyone grow. You sound like a natural gainer so didn't have to think much about what to do.  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 13, 2011, 08:20:22 PM
What kind of theory is that? No detail at all. What we need is a theory that will make everyone grow. You sound like a natural gainer so didn't have to think much about what to do.  

You want to know something really interesting Basile? My buddy had a conversation with Samir Bannout and asked him what he thought of Mike Mentzer's training philosophy. Samir's response? "Mike's stuff works 100 percent".
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 13, 2011, 09:32:03 PM
Ray Mentzer stayed at my place for several months. We got to learn about Heavy Duty and how to do it right. Some gained and some didn't. Seemed to me somewhat dangerous as strength increases.

I ended up having to do way more maximum sets. Doug Hepburn from Vancouver discovered the need for many maximum sets. HD isn't the right theory or method. It works for a time but can't sustain growth in most individuals. If that system worked everyone would be training like that.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 13, 2011, 09:43:54 PM
What kind of theory is that? No detail at all. What we need is a theory that will make everyone grow. You sound like a natural gainer so didn't have to think much about what to do.  

IS THIS REAL???

tyhis MUST be  troll

IT MUST BEEE!!!!

Masrster OUT----->
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 13, 2011, 09:47:54 PM
i keep getting huger

ALL TIME  ;D


 ;)

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: lovemonkey on February 13, 2011, 09:48:59 PM
I swear some of of the biggest trolls I've ever seen are having a riot in this thread.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 13, 2011, 09:51:58 PM
I swear some of of the biggest trolls I've ever seen are having a riot in this thread.

huge in 2 week
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: WillGrant on February 14, 2011, 03:42:40 AM
if font = navy blue
: scroll past
;D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 14, 2011, 04:04:08 AM
From what I get out of Vince's statements here on this thread, his theroy of hyperthropy is a hybrid of GVT (German Volume Training) and HIT (High Intensity Training) basically something like 10 working sets of the same exercise with the same weight will all sets taken til failure to be performed every 3rd day. Also, it seems to be with higher reps per set, say from 15 to 25.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: muscularny on February 14, 2011, 04:32:40 AM
Do what worked for decades, Key to training success!

Your post sounds like something an old man or hipster would cook up
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 14, 2011, 04:44:29 AM
From what I get out of Vince's statements here on this thread, his theroy of hyperthropy is a hybrid of GVT (German Volume Training) and HIT (High Intensity Training) basically something like 10 working sets of the same exercise with the same weight will all sets taken til failure to be performed every 3rd day. Also, it seems to be with higher reps per set, say from 15 to 25.

No, my method is definitely not HIT. If you think logically about training you have to ask why should a muscle grow from what do? When you can answer that you will understand the problem. The vast majority of trainees never get huge.

You have to do something extraordinary each and every workout to grow rapidly. This sounds simply but is hardly easy.

5 or 6 sets with the maximum resistance usually is sufficient. 10 to 15 reps should be fine.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: mrt on February 14, 2011, 04:49:21 AM
damn this is some encouraging news

bmwahahahahaha love the sarcasm brah
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 14, 2011, 07:38:09 AM
Ok Vince, so do you recomend performing each and every one of the 5 or 6 sets to positive muscular failure? When I say "positive muscular failure" I mean reaching the point within the set where no more positive reps are possible.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: lovemonkey on February 14, 2011, 07:42:36 AM
Having Basile for once state his true belief in training methods is about as likely as Alex23 stepping up on a stage in a thong.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: local hero on February 14, 2011, 09:10:15 AM
some great tips on here,,, cant wait to tell all the big armed dudes to stop doing pressdowns, wish id of known me self, waisted the past decade doing them, should have knew to stop them at 17 1/2 "
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Jaime on February 14, 2011, 12:40:42 PM
There is about as much secrets/special methods in training as there is in becoming a genius at math or chess or writing sonatas at five years old, that is to say zero secrets. Train very hard, eat enough good food, get proper rest. Everything else is genetics, after you have been doing this for a certain ammount of time you will plateau and then drugs come in to play.

Just train the way that feels right for you and your body, not someone elses.

I train extremely frequently because that's how i like to train, it works best for me because i recover very quickly. Would i tell everyone to train like that? No...A lot of people get burnout and feel that training less frequently works, great if it works for you then that is your path.

Stop looking for the holy grail and go out and fucking kill yourself training would be my advice to anyone starting out, and if what you are doing isn't working, listen to your body and adjust it until it does work.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 14, 2011, 02:00:26 PM
It is quite amazing how so many think like Jaime but his advice amounts to zero information. How is one to know what feels right? What is proper rest? What is hard training? What is this crap about finding what works for you? That is nothing more than long term trial and error, the exact opposite of what we are trying to find. What are we supposed to listen to in our bodies about poor results?

For an intelligently written post the advice is empty. That is the opposite of science.

Some exercises are more effective than others. Not just for one person but for everyone. Use the effective, but safe exercises. Don't do deadlifts. Consider machine training and give up the silly free weights. Try to stimulate growth instead of doing what knuckleheads do.

Lovemonkey is typical of Getbiggers who have no clue about how to appreciate a new training theory. That is okay because he wasn't going to accept anything different and will continue getting meagre or no results from what he does just like so many others out there.

The key feedback mechanism is DOMS. If you train hard and are not sore for a few days afterwards you didn't train right. Go back and do something different. That is what guides your training. If you do the protocols as I suggest and get very sore you will grow rapidly. Keep the muscle sore by training every third day. Make sure you do several warm up sets with higher reps to avoid injuries. Eat enough so that you weigh a bit more before you train again. If you don't weigh more then don't train. Target one or two muscles. You cannot get your whole body sore. I don't recommend doing that. Just forget about doing so many body parts.  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Jaime on February 14, 2011, 02:40:30 PM
It is quite amazing how so many think like Jaime but his advice amounts to zero information. How is one to know what feels right? What is proper rest? What is hard training? What is this crap about finding what works for you? That is nothing more than long term trial and error, the exact opposite of what we are trying to find. What are we supposed to listen to in our bodies about poor results?

For an intelligently written post the advice is empty. That is the opposite of science.

Some exercises are more effective than others. Not just for one person but for everyone. Use the effective, but safe exercises. Don't do deadlifts. Consider machine training and give up the silly free weights. Try to stimulate growth instead of doing what knuckleheads do.

Lovemonkey is typical of Getbiggers who have no clue about how to appreciate a new training theory. That is okay because he wasn't going to accept anything different and will continue getting meagre or no results from what he does just like so many others out there.

The key feedback mechanism is DOMS. If you train hard and are not sore for a few days afterwards you didn't train right. Go back and do something different. That is what guides your training. If you do the protocols as I suggest and get very sore you will grow rapidly. Keep the muscle sore by training every third day. Make sure you do several warm up sets with higher reps to avoid injuries. Eat enough so that you weigh a bit more before you train again. If you don't weigh more then don't train. Target one or two muscles. You cannot get your whole body sore. I don't recommend doing that. Just forget about doing so many body parts.  



There isn't a training regime that would suit everyone as everbody responds differently, hence you finding out what you respond best to.


Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 14, 2011, 02:52:14 PM


There isn't a training regime that would suit everyone as everbody responds differently, hence you finding out what you respond best to.




What typical bullshit you guys believe. Knucklehead soup is what your brains are. If what you say is true then stop arguing about training. Just find what works for you and good luck.

Most guys here have no clue at all about hypertrophy theory. None. Zip. Zero. A total waste of time to relate to these pumpkinheads.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Jaime on February 14, 2011, 03:00:23 PM
What typical bullshit you guys believe. Knucklehead soup is what your brains are. If what you say is true then stop arguing about training. Just find what works for you and good luck.

Most guys here have no clue at all about hypertrophy theory. None. Zip. Zero. A total waste of time to relate to these pumpkinheads.


I don't see what you are arguing about Vince. There is a huge genetic variance in the response to all of the different factors involved in bodybuilding.

I train by feel, i do what feels best for my body. No need for theorycraft.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 14, 2011, 03:20:35 PM

I don't see what you are arguing about Vince. There is a huge genetic variance in the response to all of the different factors involved in bodybuilding.

I train by feel, i do what feels best for my body. No need for theorycraft.

Good for you. That is not science. Guess you don't comprehend what this thread is all about. That is why I get frustrated with the flotsam. I keep hoping but again.......

We know almost nothing about hypertrophy and genetics yet every knucklehead uses this excuse. What is your genetic endowment re muscle size? How would you know?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: kiwiol on February 14, 2011, 03:28:06 PM
if font = navy blue
: scroll past

LOL ;D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Firemuscle on February 14, 2011, 03:55:25 PM
Good for you. That is not science. Guess you don't comprehend what this thread is all about. That is why I get frustrated with the flotsam. I keep hoping but again.......

We know almost nothing about hypertrophy and genetics yet every knucklehead uses this excuse. What is your genetic endowment re muscle size? How would you know?

 I like that blue text.

 YoU ShOuLd TyPe LiKe ThIs ToO. It Is CoOl.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: The Ugly on February 14, 2011, 04:24:54 PM
Basile just comes off as an arrogant blowhard. Anyone who disagrees is some combination of "unwashed," "knucklehead," and "flotsam." I'll bet he's chased off many gym customers this way.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: no one on February 14, 2011, 04:30:58 PM
Good for you. That is not science. Guess you don't comprehend what this thread is all about. That is why I get frustrated with the flotsam. I keep hoping but again.......

 

so, this to you is 'science'?


Ray Mentzer stayed at my place for several months. We got to learn about Heavy Duty and how to do it right. Some gained and some didn't. Seemed to me somewhat dangerous as strength increases.
.

nice science, basillie- 'seemed to me' he says. you're such a fucking tool- see, when anyone else makes an observation or has an opinion they are wrong, when you make an observation or have an opinion its 'science'.

fuck off you old twat.

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on February 14, 2011, 05:30:10 PM
From what I can see here is that in Basile's theory, he believes that in the gym one should stimulate and not annihilate the muscle every 3rd day. And in the bedroom he believes that his boyfriend should annihilate not just stimulate his asshole twice a day 7 days a week. Do I have that right?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 14, 2011, 08:13:06 PM
Abominable is more like it. That so many write like this means they feel confident others will think they are clever. What lame and witless dorks many are.  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: johnnynoname on February 14, 2011, 08:14:08 PM
this thread makes 10 pages by the end of next week

....we're almost there

thanks for trolling it up, vince
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 14, 2011, 08:16:13 PM
This place is like a computer game where no matter how many villians you shoot more arrive to take their places. The rabble here are ubiquitous.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: TacoBell on February 14, 2011, 08:16:34 PM
....we're almost there

thanks for trolling it up, vince

Every time I read a Basile post, it plays like the male computer generated voice Fred has been using on the stern show.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: johnnynoname on February 14, 2011, 08:19:41 PM


I love Fred Norris


Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 14, 2011, 08:22:04 PM
Every time I read a Basile post, it plays like the male computer generated voice Fred has been using on the stern show.
Is it a whiny, nasaly voice with heavy breaths in between words and what sounds like a little drool building up around the bottom lip?

If so, that's what I would imagine Basshole would sound also.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: TacoBell on February 14, 2011, 08:22:46 PM
Is it a whiny, nasaly voice with heavy breaths in between words and what sounds like a little drool building up around the bottom lip?

If so, that's what I would imagine Basshole would sound also.

 :-X  ;D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: The Ugly on February 14, 2011, 08:24:16 PM
The rabble here are ubiquitous.

I, too, often ponder the rabble.

Ubiquitous indeed.

U fucking biquitous.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on February 15, 2011, 04:35:12 PM
Abominable is more like it. That so many write like this means they feel confident others will think they are clever. What lame and witless dorks many are.  

Just playing Vince. Relax, You're actually my hero. I too am trying to re-invent the wheel.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 15, 2011, 05:19:43 PM
Isn't it amazing that the flotsam have access to some people with relatively vast experience but they dismiss it. I find that incredible. Why waste years doing the same thing when better methods are available? Oh, I forgot, all Getbiggers are experts and world authorities on bodybuilding and training.

Nope, the knuckleheads here default to believing drugs are the go and I find that totally unwarranted and sad. To hell with the drugs.

I tore a biceps doing stupid deadlifts so I can't train arms as hard as I would like. Without that injury I would be motivated to show you fellows. I still haven't found anyone willing to try extended, extreme training protocols to gain two inches in one month on arms. It is possible.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Jaime on February 15, 2011, 05:27:44 PM
Isn't it amazing that the flotsam have access to some people with relatively vast experience but they dismiss it. I find that incredible. Why waste years doing the same thing when better methods are available? Oh, I forgot, all Getbiggers are experts and world authorities on bodybuilding and training.

Nope, the knuckleheads here default to believing drugs are the go and I find that totally unwarranted and sad. To hell with the drugs.

I tore a biceps doing stupid deadlifts so I can't train arms as hard as I would like. Without that injury I would be motivated to show you fellows. I still haven't found anyone willing to try extended, extreme training protocols to gain two inches in one month on arms. It is possible.


In regard to your earlier post. That is my system, it's called knowing your own body. It trumps any across the board ideology that you are in pursuit of, as such a thing doesn't exist.

Two inches in one month, lol i take it you are senile.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 15, 2011, 05:43:57 PM
Yes load is the main factor. But like I said in another thread, whether going to failure is good or bad depends on the exercise.

bull. if going to failure is ever advantagous, which it may be every now and then, it would apply to every muscle, not selectively.

Today I did some triceps and was thinking of this. I know from experience that I get no training effect from pushdowns if I stop 2-3 reps from failure. It's just not taxing enough, muscularly or neurally. I don't get stronger.

you dont get stronger because you didnt lift heavy enough, not because you stopped shy of failure. use a weight that you would fail at 4-5 reps, and just do a few sets of 2-3. youll get bigger and stronger.

 Stopping 2-3 reps shy of failure would be enough if de-trained but after 2-3 workouts I have to push harder.

going to failure doesnt mean your pushing harder. i dont know why so many people correlate failure training with intensity. the two are not tied together.

 On the other hand, going to absolute failure on squats for example may kill all strength progression for weeks.


STIMULATE THE MUSCLE TO GROW BY LIFTING HEAVY, DONT BREAK IT DOWN BY DOING MULITPLE SETS TO FAILURE.

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 15, 2011, 05:47:40 PM
Tbombz and Jaime are now officially Getbig fools. They believe total rubbish. When you enlighten them they retreat into pet beliefs and false theories. No one can help or save them because they are too thick to benefit from instruction.  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Jaime on February 15, 2011, 05:51:50 PM
Tbombz and Jaime are now officially Getbig fools. They believe total rubbish. When you enlighten them they retreat into pet beliefs and false theories. No one can help or save them because they are too thick to benefit from instruction.  


Yes listening to your own body is foolishness in the extreme... ???


Your theories are laughable.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 15, 2011, 05:54:27 PM
Tbombz and Jaime are now officially Getbig fools. They believe total rubbish. When you enlighten them they retreat into pet beliefs and false theories. No one can help or save them because they are too thick to benefit from instruction.  
dude if your theory about muscle soreness was all there was to know i would already be mr olympia. nobody can out train me. my first several years of training i followed the basic advice to lift untill i was completely dead, tons of sets to failure, muscles wouldnt work right for days, usually could not do any kind of physical activity after i trained.

hard work is not the answer.

smart work is.

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 15, 2011, 05:56:23 PM

Yes listening to your own body is foolishness in the extreme... ???


Your theories are laughable.

What is this 'listening to your body' concept. Please enlighten us.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 15, 2011, 05:59:17 PM
dude if your theory about muscle soreness was all there was to know i would already be mr olympia. nobody can out train me. my first several years of training i followed the basic advice to lift untill i was completely dead, tons of sets to failure, muscles wouldnt work right for days, usually could not do any kind of physical activity after i trained.

hard work is not the answer.

smart work is.



How do you know what the smartest programs are? You start with a theory and go from there. When you stop making gains you have to modify your theory. After decades training you should have a method that causes rapid, continuous growth. If not, then your theories aren't as good as you think they are.  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Jaime on February 15, 2011, 06:02:20 PM
What is this 'listening to your body' concept. Please enlighten us.


Age before beauty.

Enlighten me as to what your theory consists of.

I will be more than happy to expand on my thinking as a counter measure to your "theory".
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: TacoBell on February 15, 2011, 06:04:04 PM


I tore a biceps doing stupid deadlifts so I can't train arms as hard as I would like. Without that injury I would be motivated to show you fellows. I still haven't found anyone willing to try extended, extreme training protocols to gain two inches in one month on arms. It is possible.



You = teh dumb
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 15, 2011, 06:05:25 PM


You = teh dumb

Half right. Doing maximum heavy deadlifts is dumb and dangerous.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 15, 2011, 06:07:30 PM
How do you know what the smartest programs are? You start with a theory and go from there. When you stop making gains you have to modify your theory. After decades training you should have a method that causes rapid, continuous growth. If not, then your theories aren't as good as you think they are.  
thats what this thread is about. the evolution of my personal hypertrophy theory. hypertrophy, myofibral hypertorphy not just sarcoplasmic,  is directly related to muscle strength. fact. taking this into consideration, i have tried various methods to increase strength as rapidly as possible.  i stumbled upon this method of training, sub failure training, last year. its taken me a while to become confident and comfortable with it. i now come to find out this way of training is exactly how olympic powerlifters lift. i still have much to learn, but this bit of knowledge about stimulation as opposed to annihilation has been very helpful to me over the past several months.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Jaime on February 15, 2011, 06:16:30 PM
Still waiting on Vince's philosophy...Perhaps he can outlay his five step plan to 2 inches on arms in a month.. ::)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 15, 2011, 06:16:38 PM
Okay, you are now talking about hypertrophy theories which can be discussed.

The pursuit of strength has a limit re hypertrophy training. It isn't the goal. Large muscles are. While training for strength will increase muscle size it doesn't always do so. That is the problem. Bigger muscles are stronger but the most important thing is being able to do many sets with a maximum resistance. This is what big muscles are good at. Do you comprehend this? It is crucial.

When you look at huge bodybuilders you would expect them to be able to throw the shot put out of the stadium. What do we find? They are okay but their big muscles, no matter how strong, are not that good for throwing the shot. Same thing goes for arm wrestling. You would think the guys with the biggest arms would win. John Brzenk proved everyone wrong.

There was a powerlifter called Mike McDonald who could bench somewhere around 600 pounds and he had about 16 1/2 inch arms. How come that strength didn't build his arms larger?  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 15, 2011, 06:22:17 PM
Still waiting on Vince's philosophy...Perhaps he can outlay his five step plan to 2 inches on arms in a month.. ::)

Why should I help jokers like you? My theories are on the internet. Go find them and distill the essence of what I propose.

You write well, Jaime, so probably are not a knucklehead but your beliefs are rather naive and lacking content.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Jaime on February 15, 2011, 06:38:00 PM
Why should I help jokers like you? My theories are on the internet. Go find them and distill the essence of what I propose.

You write well, Jaime, so probably are not a knucklehead but your beliefs are rather naive and lacking content.


I train intuitively Vince, my philosophy doesn't fit in to neat little brackets, it's constantly in fluctuation. The only constant would be focused intensity, that is regardless of sets or reps or weight used.

I don't believe that there is a holy grail that all trainers could adhere to for optimal results, as there is such a huge genetic variance involved.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: johnnynoname on February 15, 2011, 06:42:59 PM
I hate to be the wet blanket here but any intelligent trainer knows that there is no absolutes in terms of what works

I mean, isn't that what tbombz and that old dude arguing about- what is the key to training success?

of course this point will be ignored but fact of the matter is that arguing about "absolutes" is unrealistic.  Remember this- i'm the actual American College of Sports Medicine certified trainer in this thread  so you can all kiss my ass


ps fuck off
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 15, 2011, 06:44:24 PM
I wonder where intuitive training sits in hypertrophy theory? Nowhere and for good reason. What possible intuition can one have about when to train and how hard? Seems to me a method that works for all muscles is what we should be aiming at. Find the universal principles that stimulate hypertrophy and go from there improvising along the way to sustain growth. It isn't easy and that is why few obtain maximum hypertrophy or even closely approach any such thing.

The right theory and method will be constant. Oh, one can use novelty as a stimulus but then it must be used regularly to have value. When that happens it stops being novelty so that can't be the method.

Someone who is constantly fluctuating implies no method whatever. That is the complete opposite of what I propose. Focused intensity is used by all successful bodybuilders.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 15, 2011, 06:47:52 PM
Okay, you are now talking about hypertrophy theories which can be discussed.

The pursuit of strength has a limit re hypertrophy training. It isn't the goal. Large muscles are. While training for strength will increase muscle size it doesn't always do so. That is the problem. Bigger muscles are stronger but the most important thing is being able to do many sets with a maximum resistance. This is what big muscles are good at. Do you comprehend this? It is crucial.

When you look at huge bodybuilders you would expect them to be able to throw the shot put out of the stadium. What do we find? They are okay but their big muscles, no matter how strong, are not that good for throwing the shot. Same thing goes for arm wrestling. You would think the guys with the biggest arms would win. John Brzenk proved everyone wrong.

There was a powerlifter called Mike McDonald who could bench somewhere around 600 pounds and he had about 16 1/2 inch arms. How come that strength didn't build his arms larger?  


so how do you propose developing max strength for muliple sets?

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Jaime on February 15, 2011, 06:52:43 PM
I wonder where intuitive training sits in hypertrophy theory? Nowhere and for good reason. What possible intuition can one have about when to train and how hard? Seems to me a method that works for all muscles is what we should be aiming at. Find the universal principles that stimulate hypertrophy and go from there improvising along the way to sustain growth. It isn't easy and that is why few obtain maximum hypertrophy or even closely approach any such thing.

The right theory and method will be constant. Oh, one can use novelty as a stimulus but then it must be used regularly to have value. When that happens it stops being novelty so that can't be the method.

Someone who is constantly fluctuating implies no method whatever. That is the complete opposite of what I propose. Focused intensity is used by all successful bodybuilders.


It's extremely easy, knowing what you body is telling you that is. You seek to complicate simplistic processes, Johnny summarised perfectly my opinions on the matter.

Just how effective would the training regime of a sprinter be to a marathon runner, with their overabundance of slow twitch muscle fibres? No value at all would be the answer.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 15, 2011, 06:57:26 PM
Okay, Jaime, now why do sprinters, cycle sprinters and short distance speed skaters have big legs? They along with bodybuilders are doing something similar. Same thing with weightlifters re their traps and spinal erector muscles. Hard to the limit repetitive training is what causes hypertrophy.  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: johnnynoname on February 15, 2011, 06:57:39 PM

It's extremely easy, knowing what you body is telling you that is. You seek to complicate simplistic processes, Johnny summarised perfectly my opinions on the matter.

Just how effective would the training regime of a sprinter be to a marathon runner, with their overabundance of slow twitch muscle fibres? No value at all would be the answer.

Furthermore, genetics determine how much of particular muscle type a persons body contains-

Not everyone has the same amount of Muscle type I, IIa and IIb muscles and each of those muscle groups respond best to different types of times under tension so you would have to be a fucking idiot to argue that one type of training.

You can't train a person with a good amount of Type I muscle with lifts that have a total TUT of 60-120 seconds per set and vice versa

seriously, get your head out of your ass if you believe in a absolute best way

btw, I'm not a google warrior so I'm probably not gonna have a good follow up argument to all the other google warriors on here. I"m sorry- I tend to type stuff from memory
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: TacoBell on February 15, 2011, 07:03:57 PM
Furthermore, genetics determine how much of particular muscle type a persons body contains-

Not everyone has the same amount of Muscle type I, IIa and IIb muscles and each of those muscle groups respond best to different types of times under tension so you would have to be a fucking idiot to argue that one type of training.

You can't train a person with a good amount of Type I muscle with lifts that have a total TUT of 60-120 seconds per set and vice versa

seriously, get your head out of your ass if you believe in a absolute best way

btw, I'm not a google warrior so I'm probably not gonna have a good follow up argument to all the other google warriors on here. I"m sorry- I tend to type stuff from memory

Hahaha, we get it, you being a trainer is slightly more than a cover for other exploits.  :D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Jaime on February 15, 2011, 07:05:11 PM
Furthermore, genetics determine how much of particular muscle type a persons body contains-

Not everyone has the same amount of Muscle type I, IIa and IIb muscles and each of those muscle groups respond best to different types of times under tension so you would have to be a fucking idiot to argue that one type of training.

You can't train a person with a good amount of Type I muscle with lifts that have a total TUT of 60-120 seconds per set and vice versa

seriously, get your head out of your ass if you believe in a absolute best way

btw, I'm not a google warrior so I'm probably not gonna have a good follow up argument to all the other google warriors on here. I"m sorry- I tend to type stuff from memory



Exactly. Genetics...Everybody's muscles are different in their construction, so it is pretty fucking obvious that there isn't a single philosophy for all.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: johnnynoname on February 15, 2011, 07:07:11 PM
Hahaha, we get it, you being a trainer is slightly more than a cover for other exploits.  :D

yes it does
Exactly. Genetics...Everybody's muscles are different in their construction, so it is pretty fucking obvious that there isn't a single philosophy for all.

not so much in their construction per se but more in terms of there distribution. but you are 100 percent right in that there is no single great philosophy
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 15, 2011, 07:11:26 PM
thats what this thread is about. the evolution of my personal hypertrophy theory. hypertrophy, myofibral hypertorphy not just sarcoplasmic,  is directly related to muscle strength. fact. taking this into consideration, i have tried various methods to increase strength as rapidly as possible.  i stumbled upon this method of training, sub failure training, last year. its taken me a while to become confident and comfortable with it. i now come to find out this way of training is exactly how olympic powerlifters lift. i still have much to learn, but this bit of knowledge about stimulation as opposed to annihilation has been very helpful to me over the past several months.

I agree that you can't destroy your muscles every workout. But here's the thing:

IF STRONGER = MORE MUSCLES THAN MR. OLYMPIA WOULD BE THE STRONGEST MAN ON THE FUCKING PLANET

I know you're going to claim I misunderstand your theory, but you're wrong...

I'm just following it to it's illogical conclusion
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 15, 2011, 07:15:49 PM
I hate to be the wet blanket here but any intelligent trainer knows that there is no absolutes in terms of what works

I mean, isn't that what tbombz and that old dude arguing about- what is the key to training success?

of course this point will be ignored but fact of the matter is that arguing about "absolutes" is unrealistic.  Remember this- i'm the actual American College of Sports Medicine certified trainer in this thread  so you can all kiss my ass


ps fuck off
Furthermore, genetics determine how much of particular muscle type a persons body contains-

Not everyone has the same amount of Muscle type I, IIa and IIb muscles and each of those muscle groups respond best to different types of times under tension so you would have to be a fucking idiot to argue that one type of training.

You can't train a person with a good amount of Type I muscle with lifts that have a total TUT of 60-120 seconds per set and vice versa

seriously, get your head out of your ass if you believe in a absolute best way

btw, I'm not a google warrior so I'm probably not gonna have a good follow up argument to all the other google warriors on here. I"m sorry- I tend to type stuff from memory

your wrong. it may vary from person to person, but there is indeed one "best" way to grow large muscles, it just has not been quantified and verified as of yet.


I agree that you can't destroy your muscles every workout. But here's the thing:

IF STRONGER = MORE MUSCLES THAN MR. OLYMPIA WOULD BE THE STRONGEST MAN ON THE FUCKING PLANET

I know you're going to claim I misunderstand your theory, but you're wrong...

I'm just following it to it's illogical conclusion
its not that you misunderstood my theory, its that youve got it completely backwards. its not "stronger=bigger muscles" its = &guy MUSCLES= STRONGER MUSCLES  ;)

its a fact. bigger muscle=stronger muscle.  indisputable.

being stronger doesnt necessarily mean your going to be bigger./ it could be due to improvements in lifting technique, stronger tendons, using more leverage, or more momentum, etc. lots of powerlifters get strong without getting too big, because they arent working the MUSCLE properly. but once you are making sure to always work the muscle properly, like a bodybuilder should, then you can connect strength with size.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 15, 2011, 07:16:53 PM
Finally the penny has dropped for some here. Strength is not the goal of bodybuilders but of course they use progression in their training. There comes a point where adding more resistance is dangerous. So top guys have to find other ways to keep growing. Just about everyone uses many, many sets with significant resistance to grow. That is their method. It is universal. So don't say there is no method that everyone uses. It is a fact.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 15, 2011, 07:19:26 PM
its not that you misunderstood my theory, its that youve got it completely backwards. its not "stronger=bigger muscles" its =  BIGGER MUSCLES= STRONGER MUSCLES  ;)

See, thats a nice little semantical trick to make your theory sound more reasonable.   >:(
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: johnnynoname on February 15, 2011, 07:20:26 PM
your wrong. it may vary from person to person, but there is indeed one "best" way to grow large muscles, it just has not been quantified and verified as of yet.




actually, you're absolutely right







.....this is the thread about getting fucked in the ass by another guy, right?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 15, 2011, 07:46:45 PM
Yeah, but he was just seeing what it felt like so it doesn't count. Right? Doesn't mean he liked it and prefers that sort of thing. I mean, who in their right mind would disclose something like that on Getbig!!!!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 15, 2011, 07:49:31 PM
tbomz didn't get fucked in the ass

he thinks it's "rad" to poke the hornets nest with a stick and shock everyone  ::)

*yawn*
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 15, 2011, 07:51:47 PM
Half right. Doing maximum heavy deadlifts is dumb and dangerous.
??? What is "maximum heavy deadlifts"?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dr.chimps on February 15, 2011, 07:52:22 PM
Finally the penny has dropped for some here. Strength is not the goal of bodybuilders but of course they use progression in their training. There comes a point where adding more resistance is dangerous. So top guys have to find other ways to keep growing. Just about everyone uses many, many sets with significant resistance to grow. That is their method. It is universal. So don't say there is no method that everyone uses. It is a fact.
Translation: More resistance is dangerous. Significant resistance is universal. There is no method. It is a fact.

/are you an idiot/ are you hammered!?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 15, 2011, 07:53:50 PM
??? What is "maximum heavy deadlifts"?

have you heard of double secret probation?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 15, 2011, 07:55:19 PM
thats what this thread is about. the evolution of my personal hypertrophy theory. hypertrophy, myofibral hypertorphy not just sarcoplasmic,  is directly related to muscle strength. fact. taking this into consideration, i have tried various methods to increase strength as rapidly as possible.  i stumbled upon this method of training, sub failure training, last year. its taken me a while to become confident and comfortable with it. i now come to find out this way of training is exactly how olympic powerlifters lift. i still have much to learn, but this bit of knowledge about stimulation as opposed to annihilation has been very helpful to me over the past several months.

I was fortunate enough to be told this very early into my journey.

Like you said in your previous post......I used to crush myself into dust every time I trained. Beyond failure, WAY beyond failure....every set.

Then my friend Tom who was a national competitor told me...."you need to back off man....you train too hard....there is no way in hell you are going to recover and grow doing what you are doing" So I cut back on the negatives and forced reps....which took some getting used to ( felt like I was doing pussy workouts).   But I immediately felt better overall and started growing again
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 15, 2011, 07:55:28 PM
Translation: More resistance is dangerous. Significant resistance is universal. There is no method. It is a fact.

/are you an idiot/ are you hammered!?

Hasn't anyone punched your semantic, critical, logical nose yet?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dr.chimps on February 15, 2011, 07:58:10 PM
Hasn't anyone punched your semantic, critical, logical nose yet?
What a windbag.  ::)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 15, 2011, 08:13:19 PM
What a windbag.  ::)

Seriously....You would think at his age he would be more than willing to have a serious give-and-take discussion about training.

But he's a troll....he changes the goalposts...Calls people stupid when they make a completely valid point.....Has the usual Superoirity complex and pats himself on the back for no reason.

All the typical Troll Tricks....at what...70 fucking years old?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 15, 2011, 08:47:38 PM
Seriously....You would think at his age he would be more than willing to have a serious give-and-take discussion about training.

But he's a troll....he changes the goalposts...Calls people stupid when they make a completely valid point.....Has the usual Superoirity complex and pats himself on the back for no reason.

All the typical Troll Tricks....at what...70 fucking years old?

Where is the science to back up your theory? you think I'm troll but you have no science to back up your claim. Everyone thinks they understand what it means, but these kids have no information to base their claims on. Now everyone thinks they have all the answers, but arriving at a real theory requires too much work.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 15, 2011, 09:15:12 PM
Listen, folks, and other Getbiggers, otherwise collectively best described as Flotsam. Dr Chimps has contributed zero knowledge to hypertrophy theory. We don't even know if he goes to a gym or does pushups in his bedroom. So I take exception to his smart remarks when he has nothing to say re content in anything but trivial threads. He corrects spelling and grammar like a college professor but enlightens no one when it comes to exercise. If there is a troll then this smartass comes close. Right up there with Goatboy.

Can you imagine how disappointing it is to confront resident heroes who all believe empty platitudes about training? Most of what they say can be summed up by saying 'do what works for you'! What kind of advice is this? You are telling others that there are no effective methods. Just experiment and when something works do that. That is trial and error that thousands have already endured and now collectively we should know exactly what to do to make large muscles even larger. Unfortunately that is precisely what most here don't know. So they embrace sentiments and ideas that support their frustration instead of welcoming true theories that will generate unbelievably rapid results. The more many here read the more confused they get and the more they rely on ubiquitous bullshit excuses that explain nothing.

How a messenger bringing good news should be stoned is a mystery. Cast out those who think. It is better to remain ignorant as long as everyone is equally ignorant that you associate with. It is all drugs and genetics, anyway, so there is really no point in working out naturally and even sweating.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 15, 2011, 09:29:30 PM
Listen, folks, and other Getbiggers, otherwise collectively best described as Flotsam. Dr Chimps has contributed zero knowledge to hypertrophy theory. We don't even know if he goes to a gym or does pushups in his bedroom. So I take exception to his smart remarks when he has nothing to say re content in anything but trivial threads. He corrects spelling and grammar like a college professor but enlightens no one when it comes to exercise. If there is a troll then this smartass comes close. Right up there with Goatboy.

Can you imagine how disappointing it is to confront resident heroes who all believe empty platitudes about training? Most of what they say can be summed up by saying 'do what works for you'! What kind of advice is this? You are telling others that there are no effective methods. Just experiment and when something works do that. That is trial and error that thousands have already endured and now collectively we should know exactly what to do to make large muscles even larger. Unfortunately that is precisely what most here don't know. So they embrace sentiments and ideas that support their frustration instead of welcoming true theories that will generate unbelievably rapid results. The more many here read the more confused they get and the more they rely on ubiquitous bullshit excuses that explain nothing.

How a messenger bringing good news should be stoned is a mystery. Cast out those who think. It is better to remain ignorant as long as everyone is equally ignorant that you associate with. It is all drugs and genetics, anyway, so there is really no point in working out naturally and even sweating.

So you are saying that there is a universal method that will work for ANYBODY and get them big ?


Sum it up in two sentences, just the basic principle
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: TrueGrit on February 15, 2011, 09:34:44 PM
Vince B is a big DOMS man.

I also think he secretly misses the slaughtered goat(boy)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 15, 2011, 09:35:17 PM
So you are saying that there is a universal method that will work for ANYBODY and get them big ?


Sum it up in two sentences, just the basic principle

Lift weights.

Put them down.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 15, 2011, 09:39:10 PM
Lift weights.

Put them down.

where is the Science in that ??


Oh that's right.....lifting weights isn't science....it's exercise.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 15, 2011, 09:55:32 PM

Can you imagine how disappointing it is to confront resident heroes who all believe empty platitudes about training? Most of what they say can be summed up by saying 'do what works for you'! What kind of advice is this? You are telling others that there are no effective methods. Just experiment and when something works do that. That is trial and error that thousands have already endured and now collectively we should know exactly what to do to make large muscles even larger.[/color]





Yes, Vince. Yes I can.


p.s.: OH YEAH, I TOOK OUT YOR NAVY BLUE, BITCH   8)



Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 15, 2011, 10:20:42 PM
Let me address the issue of relative knowledge of bodybuilding. Suppose a novice approaches you and asks for your help because he knows you have a lot of experience. Would you have any trouble directing him? If he insisted that you personally train him would you be lost about what to do? Of course not. We would all feel confident that we would be helping this person as well as any personal trainer could and maybe better.

The second scenario draws the line between having some experience and knowing exactly what we are talking about. An exercise scientist approaches you about an important experiment they want to do re muscular hypertrophy. They want you to help them out by disclosing the latest scientific theory about hypertrophy and the practical way the champions go about training. Who here would be confident that they have enough knowledge to relate to these scientists? How many know the language they use in the latest physiological research about muscles and processes? I imagine most of us would not at feel confident and thus would have to accept we are not authorities and perhaps not even experts in our field. No one would be dense enough to suggest that the main thing we learned was to listen to our bodies and do what works best for us!  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 15, 2011, 10:30:37 PM
Let me address the issue of relative knowledge of bodybuilding. Suppose a novice approaches you and asks for your help because he knows you have a lot of experience. Would you have any trouble directing him? If he insisted that you personally train him would you be lost about what to do? Of course not. We would all feel confident that we would be helping this person as well as any personal trainer could and maybe better.

The second scenario draws the line between having some experience and knowing exactly what we are talking about. An exercise scientist approaches you about an important experiment they want to do re muscular hypertrophy. They want you to help them out by disclosing the latest scientific theory about hypertrophy and the practical way the champions go about training. Who here would be confident that they have enough knowledge to relate to these scientists? How many know the language they use in the latest physiological research about muscles and processes? I imagine most of us would not at feel confident and thus would have to accept we are not authorities and perhaps not even experts in our field. No one would be dense enough to suggest that the main thing we learned was to listen to our bodies and do what works best for us! 

Blue is GONE, bitch   8)

How does it feel when the blues on repeal?  8)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 15, 2011, 10:31:06 PM
Let me address the issue of relative knowledge of bodybuilding. Suppose a novice approaches you and asks for your help because he knows you have a lot of experience. Would you have any trouble directing him? If he insisted that you personally train him would you be lost about what to do? Of course not. We would all feel confident that we would be helping this person as well as any personal trainer could and maybe better.

The second scenario draws the line between having some experience and knowing exactly what we are talking about. An exercise scientist approaches you about an important experiment they want to do re muscular hypertrophy. They want you to help them out by disclosing the latest scientific theory about hypertrophy and the practical way the champions go about training. Who here would be confident that they have enough knowledge to relate to these scientists? How many know the language they use in the latest physiological research about muscles and processes? I imagine most of us would not at feel confident and thus would have to accept we are not authorities and perhaps not even experts in our field. No one would be dense enough to suggest that the main thing we learned was to listen to our bodies and do what works best for us!  

That's exactly what i would say.

I could dress it up and stretch it to three paragraphs...but that sums it up.

Like i said....after you have learned the basic tenets of resistance training, ie  What exercise does what, progressive overload, recuperation, negatives, sets, rep tempo, splitting up your body...etc, the rest will depend on your genetics.

There is no universal, surefire way to get big....but at the same time if you are training hard and eating right...almost every "method' will work if you have the genetics.....barring anything stupid of course
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 15, 2011, 10:33:44 PM


[ *  content removed by moderator *  ]


Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: lovemonkey on February 16, 2011, 12:13:48 AM
Basile is the living proof of that just because someone is old it doesn't mean they're necessarily wise, in fact, they're more likely to be senile.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: evandatp on February 16, 2011, 12:27:15 AM
[Dr. Chimps] corrects spelling and grammar like a college professor but enlightens no one when it comes to exercise.
You fucking pompous hypocrite.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 16, 2011, 01:05:12 AM
That's exactly what i would say.

I could dress it up and stretch it to three paragraphs...but that sums it up.

Like i said....after you have learned the basic tenets of resistance training, ie  What exercise does what, progressive overload, recuperation, negatives, sets, rep tempo, splitting up your body...etc, the rest will depend on your genetics.

There is no universal, surefire way to get big....but at the same time if you are training hard and eating right...almost every "method' will work if you have the genetics.....barring anything stupid of course

Groink, shake your head hard and clear out the debris. You are typical of muscleheads who think they know things but are filled with the flotsam and jetsam of discussion board nonsense and collected jargon, false ideas and beliefs embraced by the dumbbell community. You will think you know what you are talking about and others will agree with you because they too are denser than cast iron. Hard to believe so many know so little about something that isn't rocket science.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 16, 2011, 01:25:35 AM
Xerxes, how is your hair going? Tablets and injections are not so good for a full head of hair. But what do I know?

Let me tell those who are intelligent a thing or two about discussion boards. First of all, there are few bodybuilders who actually have any original ideas. Some souls are witty and amusing but have no depth. Others are erudite and capable but have neither substance or knowledge that they can pass on to the hapless dumbbell community. Muscleheads are too lazy, both physically and intellectually, to discard false beliefs and embrace a new fitness world order. It isn't made up of gadgets and useless gimmicks that impress halfwits like Goodrum. Over the last 40 years there has been a proliferation of research in muscle physiology. Most here are not equipped to comprehend that difficult literature so require others to interpret that material. The sad thing is that unless one is an exercise scientist he will be unable to decipher much of the research. Where does that leave the hapless pumpkinheads who yearn to get big but fall by the wayside? You see, if you don't have the vocabulary you will not be able to recognize truth from pseudo-science. Do not look to your left or right because the others here and in gyms know almost nothing about hypertrophy. The multitudes believe so much rubbish that new knowledge has no currency nor can it establish a harbour in those sloppy minds. Students of hypertrophy are few and far between. They rely on research and vast experience. They test new ideas to see if there is merit. They are not armchair experts who dismiss anything that doesn't fit in with their shallow theories. The future is with ingenious machines. Sensible people use the modern equipment but primitive individuals still cling to there precious free weights. That is why the dumbbell community remains one of perpetual wannabes.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: wes on February 16, 2011, 02:57:19 AM
Vinces posts confuse me and tell me nothing about how to progress in my training.  :(

Vince please go into more detail..........how about outlining a routine with more details please?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 03:24:31 AM
So you are saying that there is a universal method that will work for ANYBODY and get them big ?


Sum it up in two sentences, just the basic principle

Yes.

Though we are unique in our own way but as a living organism we are identical. Carbon base life form, heart, lungs, breath oxygen, process carbs, fats, proteins... It only differs in matters of degree and specificity. The general principles apply to everyone. They are universal. If you get a bacterial infection an antibiotic will kill the bacteria. What specific type of antibiotic, dose and frequency will vary and the response will also vary. I, for example, am allergic to Penicillin, one of the most common and effective antibiotics in use when I was a kid but potentially lethal for me. I had to use Tretracycline. But the same universal principle of using an antibiotic still applied to me. It was only the specifics that differed.

Steroids will have an anabolic effect on everyone, the degree of the effect will vary. Overloading a muscle will stimulate an adaptive response. The degree of that response will vary but the general principle of overload applies to everyone. Squats may be an ideal movement for some but a disaster for someone 6'10". But the same general principle of overloading the muscle using that plane of movement is necessary for quads.

If general principles regarding the human body didn't apply to everybody the field and science of medicine simply could not exist.

There does exists universal principles that optimizes muscle hypertrophy. What they are exactly I don't know. Science seems to have little interest in fully exploring this. It is not even conclusive what actually happens that stimulate a muscle to grow. This idea of micro tears causing an over adaptation has never been proven. Hell, I've had several muscle tears that went far beyond these micro tears with visible bruising and no small amount of pain. It did nothing to stimulate muscle growth.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 16, 2011, 03:55:36 AM
I have a question Gronik, when you cut back on your training intensity and started growing again, did your training weights increase?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 16, 2011, 03:56:14 AM
Well thought and written, Pellius. Not everyone around here is a knucklehead.

You are correct about the paucity of research to answer the questions about hypertrophy. However, anyone who has been to university well knows the total bias most people there have against musclemen. I encountered that plenty of times during my time at various universities. Probably the last time a good mind in a good body was appreciated was ancient Greece about 2500 years ago. Plato argued that the mind was superior to the body and the religions adopted that value. What a pity. The vast majority of people value physical pleasures and not intellectual pursuits. If someone wins a big lottery do they quit their job and go to university? I doubt it. Most quit their jobs, take a holiday, buy a better house, car, jewelry, TV, computer and so on. That is what people value.

What I can't understand is why large muscles have a bad name. Fat is despised almost universally by both sexes. It is seen as a calamity. If fat is bad then muscle should be good, right? That isn't the way our culture works. Large muscles are not valued and just about everyone believes things about musclemen to discredit having large muscles. We are stupid, musclebound, gay, obsessed and selfish individuals.

All of this helps explain why universities do not do research on or for bodybuilders. To the academics we are mirror athletes and should not be either encouraged or valued.

I am still waiting for someone to obtain a PhD in human maximum hypertrophy. Why not? People study eating disorders, and all manner of different people but almost noone is studying bodybuilders. If we admit that drugs are a big part of professional bodybuilding then that is pretty much the nail in the coffin for all of us because no one will touch us with a 10 foot pole.  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 16, 2011, 04:09:28 AM
Hey X, from what I've read of Vince's posts on this thread, his arm training protocol would look like this: 5 or 6 sets of 10 to 15 reps for one good bicep movement, and one good tricep movement, with both exercises being trained once every 3 days.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 16, 2011, 04:18:35 AM
I will admit that I'm tempted to give it a run, but... I'm rather convinced that it would quickly lead to a state of gross overtraining, and in fact the arm muscles would get smaller and weaker following this particular protocol. Of course I'm talking with regards to natural trainers.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Marty Champions on February 16, 2011, 04:55:16 AM
its all math
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: 225for70 on February 16, 2011, 04:59:14 AM
I found this article with some interesting info:


Training to Muscle failure
November 2nd, 2007 by Paul Johnson

Whether or not training a set to muscle failure is better (or even necessary) for muscle growth, is a age old debate in bodybuilding. Muscular failure means doing reps in a set, until you can no longer lift the weight with proper form through the full range of motion.

Why is this last rep so important to discuss?

It may only seem like just another rep that happens to be the last in a set, but bodybuilders and scientist have viewed the last rep to failure as distinctly different from the other reps. Bodybuilders see it as giving it “your all” and fatiguing the muscle completely. Some high intensity workout programs, believe that you must go to failure for maximum muscle and strength gains.

Training to failure research studies:

To see why scientist see this rep differently, let’s look at some research.

A study published (J Appl Physiol. 2006 May;100(5):1647-56. Epub 2006 Jan 12.) did a 11 week resistance training program of failure vs nonfailure groups. Immediately after the 11th week all groups did the same workout, to see the effects each previous training led. Both groups had similiar increases in one rep max. During the 2nd phase of the study, there was an increase in muscular endurance in the failure group and power in the nonfailure group. The failure group had lower IGF-1 levels (important anabolic hormone for muscle growth), while the nonfailure group had lower resting levels of cortisol and higher testosterone levels.

A study published in (J Strength Cond Res. 2005 May;19(2):382-8) compared failure to nonfailure in 26 basketball players. The failure group did 4 sets of 6 repetitions every 260 seconds, whereas the nonfailure 8 sets of 3 repetitions every 113. Results showed that the failure group had significant strength increases over the non-failure group. One problem I have with this study is, time under tension differences between the sets. The failure group is doing 6 reps in a set instead of 3 reps. Even though the weight is the same and the time is lessened to increase intensity, 3 reps per set is not going to be the same stimulus.

A few months ago JM Willardson, who has published some important studies in excercise science, wrote a research note recently in (J Strength Cond Res. 2007 May;21(2):628-31.) He acknowledged that there isn’t enough conclusive evidence yet, whether sets should be done to failure or not. However, willardson recommended advanced lifters use training failure to break past plateaus, due to increased activation of motor units and the hormonal response. He also didn’t recommend it long term due to overtraining and risk of injury.

http://www.bodybuildingweb.net/blog/training-to-muscle-failure/ (http://www.bodybuildingweb.net/blog/training-to-muscle-failure/)



All this and they say nothing about increases in muscle mas... :'(
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 16, 2011, 05:11:21 AM
Thanks X ;) P.S. The results of that 2nd study seem to fly in the face of tbombz supposed therory ::) There's a few points missing in those studies though, one is the VERY IMPORTANT FACT, that one must de-regulate frequency and volume downwards as one continues to get bigger and stronger, ie. Mike Mentzer's consolidation routine.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Jaime on February 16, 2011, 05:15:55 AM
Groink, shake your head hard and clear out the debris. You are typical of muscleheads who think they know things but are filled with the flotsam and jetsam of discussion board nonsense and collected jargon, false ideas and beliefs embraced by the dumbbell community. You will think you know what you are talking about and others will agree with you because they too are denser than cast iron. Hard to believe so many know so little about something that isn't rocket science.


You are easily one of the most condescending posters on this board, the fact that you can't even have a debate after living on this earth for about 80 years is a pretty sad indictment of your personality.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 16, 2011, 06:18:33 AM
I will admit that I'm tempted to give it a run, but... I'm rather convinced that it would quickly lead to a state of gross overtraining, and in fact the arm muscles would get smaller and weaker following this particular protocol. Of course I'm talking with regards to natural trainers.

Here you are getting free advice and you dismiss it because of your beliefs. If you are not an expert how do you know what to accept and what to reject? Surely if you are not growing rapidly you have to rethink what you are doing and discard or change your beliefs. You miss the main part of what I do. No matter what you do re sets and reps IF the muscle isn't quite sore the next day then you didn't do enough or didn't do the right exercise or hard enough or all three. You can't read part of what I write and discard other essential parts. It is necessary for soreness to develop the next day and remain sore for several days. This won't be easy to do with biceps so that is a real problem for just about everyone. However, those who succeed in making both biceps and triceps sore will probably grow more than 1/10 of an inch from that workout. That is over 1 inch in the month from 10 workouts.

Don't worry about overtraining because that doesn't apply to DOMS training. Just work arms for a month for your upper body. Nothing else. This is important. I am talking about natural trainees as well.

If I knew how big you guys were and your level of development I could factor that in and give you more specific information about particular exercises.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: che on February 16, 2011, 06:25:24 AM
Here you are getting free advice and you dismiss it because of your beliefs. If you are not an expert how do you know what to accept and what to reject? Surely if you are not growing rapidly you have to rethink what you are doing and discard or change your beliefs. You miss the main part of what I do. No matter what you do re sets and reps IF the muscle isn't quite sore the next day then you didn't do enough or didn't do the right exercise or hard enough or all three. You can't read part of what I write and discard other essential parts. It is necessary for soreness to develop the next day and remain sore for several days. This won't be easy to do with biceps so that is a real problem for just about everyone. However, those who succeed in making both biceps and triceps sore will probably grow more than 1/10 of an inch from that workout. That is over 1 inch in the month from 10 workouts.

Don't worry about overtraining because that doesn't apply to DOMS training. Just work arms for a month for your upper body. Nothing else. This is important. I am talking about natural trainees as well.

If I knew how big you guys were and your level of development I could factor that in and give you more specific information about particular exercises.
STFU Vince my muscles never get sore the next day,  they get sore 2 days after my workout. I hope this helps
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: The Showstoppa on February 16, 2011, 06:26:58 AM
STFU Vince my muscles never get sore the next day,  they get sore 2 days after my workout. I hope this helps

Same here.....NEVER the next day, always the 2nd day.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 16, 2011, 06:28:10 AM
Yes.

Though we are unique in our own way but as a living organism we are identical. Carbon base life form, heart, lungs, breath oxygen, process carbs, fats, proteins... It only differs in matters of degree and specificity. The general principles apply to everyone. They are universal. If you get a bacterial infection an antibiotic will kill the bacteria. What specific type of antibiotic, dose and frequency will vary and the response will also vary. I, for example, am allergic to Penicillin, one of the most common and effective antibiotics in use when I was a kid but potentially lethal for me. I had to use Tretracycline. But the same universal principle of using an antibiotic still applied to me. It was only the specifics that differed.

Steroids will have an anabolic effect on everyone, the degree of the effect will vary. Overloading a muscle will stimulate an adaptive response. The degree of that response will vary but the general principle of overload applies to everyone. Squats may be an ideal movement for some but a disaster for someone 6'10". But the same general principle of overloading the muscle using that plane of movement is necessary for quads.

If general principles regarding the human body didn't apply to everybody the field and science of medicine simply could not exist.

There does exists universal principles that optimizes muscle hypertrophy. What they are exactly I don't know. Science seems to have little interest in fully exploring this. It is not even conclusive what actually happens that stimulate a muscle to grow. This idea of micro tears causing an over adaptation has never been proven. Hell, I've had several muscle tears that went far beyond these micro tears with visible bruising and no small amount of pain. It did nothing to stimulate muscle growth.



LOL....you say "yes" and conclude by saying "What they are exactly i don't know"

And Basile applauds......this place is a fucking joke.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 16, 2011, 06:31:24 AM
I have a question Gronik, when you cut back on your training intensity and started growing again, did your training weights increase?


No I decreased the weight and did more reps....I don't think high weight /low rep is optimal for BBing.

It's an ego thing
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: che on February 16, 2011, 06:33:15 AM

No I decreased the weight and did more reps....I don't think high weight /low rep is optimal for BBing.

It's an ego thing

Haha, poor DJ
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Option D on February 16, 2011, 06:35:10 AM
I want to believe, I really do.


But I don't, sorry.

More test = more muscle.



Damn...true story there
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 16, 2011, 06:42:40 AM
Allright Gronik, so you decreased the weight and increased the reps yes? Well, that still doesn't answer my question actually. So let me be a little more exact. I don't know how many reps that you mean by "higher reps" but for the sake of simplicity lets say you mean 15 reps. Ok, so the question is... Did your 15 rep, or whatever reps you use, max go up?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 16, 2011, 06:46:17 AM
And Vince, so are you saying to train only arms for the whole month and nothing else? Also, do you believe that training loads will increase following your particular protocol? For me, the whole ballgame boils down to this: INCREASED TRAINING LOADS=BIGGER MUSCLES
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Meso_z on February 16, 2011, 06:46:38 AM
I just get in there, pick up dumbels, barbels and wave them up and down. whats so difficult to understand..

Make sure you have a water bottle and a towel with you. just in case you get thirsty or sweat.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: peroni on February 16, 2011, 06:53:06 AM
my friends, they key to making progress every workout, to getting as big as possible, as strong as possible, is to never EVER cause significant muscle damage. this means staying at least 2-3 reps shy of failure on EVERY set. even when youve already done several heavy sets and you would hit failure by doing 3-5 reps , you need to stop at 1-3 reps (just an example). never ever cause muscle damage.  when you damage the muscle, your body has to repair that damage, and cant focus on building new muscle tissue. strength POTENTIAL and muscle size are directly correlated.  the more muscle you have the moe weight you can lift. the more glycogen and water you have in the muscle the more rep capacity you have. if you want to get big and strong, you need to lift heavy heavy heavy. good form. stimulate the muscle to add new muscle cells so you can lift more weight. BUT STAY AWAY FROM FAILURE. you can add some extra size by throwing in higher reps, but only to a degree. you cant add any significant muscle tissue without progressive overload, all you do by increasing reps is increase stamina/rep capacity/glycogen/water levels.

discuss

Shut your pie hole you roided up tool
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 16, 2011, 07:48:51 AM
Allright Gronik, so you decreased the weight and increased the reps yes? Well, that still doesn't answer my question actually. So let me be a little more exact. I don't know how many reps that you mean by "higher reps" but for the sake of simplicity lets say you mean 15 reps. Ok, so the question is... Did your 15 rep, or whatever reps you use, max go up?

Why don't you just tell me what you want me to say ?

You are obviously looking for a specific answer to back up your theory
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Van_Bilderass on February 16, 2011, 08:40:40 AM

bull. if going to failure is ever advantagous, which it may be every now and then, it would apply to every muscle, not selectively.



It would, except for a few things. First, you obviously have to consider the physical system as a whole. A set done to failure on a rear delt machine is a lot less stressful than a to-failure set on squats or deads. Obviously.  :D

You have to consider what the typical last possible rep on a set of an exercise looks like. On some movements you can strain for a few seconds whereas others you fail at quickly. The longer you can strain the more "damage" is being done to the muscle, not to mention nervous system. And what does the eccentric component of a movement look like? You mentioned "Olympic powerlifters". Olympic lifters actually often train very close to max for multiple sets, with high frequency. How can they do this? There is no eccentric component to the Olympic lifts! Olympic lifts are less stressful on the system and individual muscles than the powerlifts - where max lifts are often sloow and strained, plus you have heavy eccentric loading. A snatch to failure is lot different than a deadlift to failure!  ;)
There's a lot of close-to-failure training done by powerlifters too. A few have stressed that you should never fail in training, mostly due to psychological factors. But many/most powerlifters, for example the "Westside" guys, go to failure frequently, tons and tons of missed lifts in training.

Then we have the whole "muscle damage" theory which is often equated with the DOMS. The research, from memory, is a bit conflicting. Some data says there's no structural damage done despite DOMS, for example. That the DOMS may be due to some 'chemical leakage' which stimulates pain receptors. Paraphrasing, one study said that DOMS could simply be seen a sign of adaptation happening, not muscle damage as such.

IMO you'll not get as strong as possible without ever going to failure, much less 2-3 reps shy. And you'll never get as strong as possible by always going to failure.

You have to consider the person doing the program, the movement selection, and you have to consider the program as a whole.

There is no magic hypertrophy trigger in the last rep. But there is no overtraining/muscle damage trigger either. It depends!  :D

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 16, 2011, 08:41:29 AM
Allright, fair enough. So what I'm trying to say is this: Your muscles got bigger because you were able to train with heavier training loads. I'm not talking about a 1 rep max, I'm talking specifically about an 8 rep max, 10 rep max, 15 rep max. So it comes down to something like this: If one makes their biceps bigger, than their bicep training loads MUST INCREASE. Again a 10 rep max for example. So what is one supposed to go to get bigger biceps? Train with lesser and lesser training loads?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 16, 2011, 08:46:09 AM
Good points Van, but what about decreasing training frequency as one gets stronger, in order to enable one to keep progressing?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Van_Bilderass on February 16, 2011, 09:04:04 AM
Good points Van, but what about decreasing training frequency as one gets stronger, in order to enable one to keep progressing?

Man, sounds like a simple question but it isn't to me! :D

Depends on why the subject isn't progressing I guess.  If he's overtrained or overreaching it should help. OTOH someone else could benefit from training more frequently, at least for a while. Kind of like some athletes purposely try to hit an overreaching stage and then do a taper and wait for the performance increase.  :D

Bodybuilders do this too, except it also involves dieting. Train and diet yourself into the ground, then rebound to next level.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Meso_z on February 16, 2011, 09:07:24 AM
Good posts Van.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 11:25:07 AM

LOL....you say "yes" and conclude by saying "What they are exactly i don't know"

And Basile applauds......this place is a fucking joke.

You seem to miss the point. There does exist a universal principle in regard to the human body that applies to everyone. And this is not limited to just bodybuilding. Once we find a cure for cancer it will cure everyone because we are biologically identical varying only in specifics. But in bodybuilding, like cancer, we haven't found the exact prescription.

Is it clear now?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 11:29:25 AM
Stop beating around the bush and tell us about the theories you believe in for hypertrophy.

Well, if you insist.

testosterona
equipona
trenbolona
masterona
ghona
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: ManBearPig... on February 16, 2011, 11:44:32 AM
Well, if you insist.

testosterona
equipona
trenbolona
masterona
ghona

after all this spewage posted here, this is the only answer that makes sense. 
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 16, 2011, 11:46:34 AM
You seem to miss the point. There does exist a universal principle in regard to the human body that applies to everyone. And this is not limited to just bodybuilding. Once we find a cure for cancer it will cure everyone because we are biologically identical varying only in specifics. But in bodybuilding, like cancer, we haven't found the exact prescription.

Is it clear now?


Yes....you don't know either. Very clear
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Mr Nobody on February 16, 2011, 12:20:50 PM
Looks like we need to bring Mike Mentzer and Arthur Jones back to straighten this shit out. 8)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 16, 2011, 12:27:07 PM
Looks like we need to bring Mike Mentzer and Arthur Jones back to straighten this shit out. 8)

They didn't know either  :D

Mentzer was juiced to the gills.....he would grow flying a kite or sucking on a penis
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Mr Nobody on February 16, 2011, 12:29:15 PM
They didn't know either  :D

Mentzer was juiced to the gills.....he would grow flying a kite or sucking on a penis
Excellent point, Genes rule throw in the roids you got your Mr O's.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Zaphod on February 16, 2011, 01:13:39 PM
Excellent point, Genes rule throw in the roids you got your Mr O's.

All this talk about drug use ignores the fact that you still don't have a proper theory about training. What is the best rep range? Where should you work out, what time of the day, and what kind of comfortable clothing works best. These days I see people at the gym wearing all kinds of ridiculous outfits that may or may not aid their training. Has any of this apparel been tested or put through any kind of rigorous study? Its like the blind is leading the blind and the one eyed king hasn't even shown up for work.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 01:21:32 PM
About this idea of training to failure, or sub failure, or in Tbombz more specific theory -- 2 reps short of failure, and the risks of injury it might, help to delve into a bit of common sense. Or at least what seems to be common sense.

The idea of lifting weights is to subject your body to an overload that it is not accustomed to with the idea (and hope) that it will stimulate an adaptive response. In this case, bigger and stronger muscles. It seems to me that if you are always doing things that are already easy, doing something that your body is already accustom to, this will not happen. If, for example, you can do 8 reps on the bench with 205 lbs and failing on the 9th rep but all you do in practice is always stop at the 8th rep, or in Tbombz case, stop at the 6th rep, never trying for that 9th rep, never trying to exceed your functional ability how will that stimulate an adaptive response? How will that signal to the body that a change is needed? What does it need to adapt to? Of course Tbombz will say that it is simply a matter of increasing the load. But if you can only do 8 reps at 205 lbs but stop at 6 reps, what difference does it make if you increase the load to 225 lbs when you probably could only get 4 or 5 reps but stop at 2 or 3?

And training to failure does not increase the risks of injury provided there is no degradation of training form. If you are sloppy with the squat you will hurt yourself and stand a much greater chance of injury regardless of weight though of course the resistance matters.

You get hurt when you exceed the structural integrity or tensile strength of your body be it muscle, tendons, ligament or bones. So it is the force generated that increases the chance of injury which decreases as the you preform a set there by making it less likely that you will injure yourself as you get closer to failure -- provided form is consistent.

Going back to the 205 lbs on the bench for 8 reps -- failing at the 9th -- you are your strongest during the first rep. Force is high but intensity is low. You could easily lift more than 205 lbs for that first rep. As you progress through your set strength, and consequently force, diminishes though intensity rises. Finally, on your 8th rep you can barely generate that 205 lbs though your intensity is at it's highest.

Because you actually get weaker as you approach failure you stand a much less chance of exceeding your structural integrity and tensile strength provided form is consistent.

Another point is that of course if you train heavy, going for the low end of the rep scheme to be able to manage a heavier load, you increase your chances of injury but even then form is much more important. Explosive movements dramatically increases the chance of injury regardless of the weight because of the force generated. Similar to why you can sit very comfortably in a car going sixty miles an hour as long as you accelerate slow enough. But if you go from zero to 60 mph your neck will snap off or, more commonly, go from 60 mph to zero (such as when you slam on your brakes) you will go through the windshield if you are not wearing seat belts.

You can take you fist and push as hard as you want on a brick wall and you will not injure yourself. Punch the wall as hard as you can and you will break your hand. It's the difference between velocity and acceleration.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 01:33:58 PM
Yes....you don't know either. Very clear

You posed the question whether one believes that a universal principle exist that will stimulate hypertrophy not whether or not me, Vince, or anybody else  knows exactly what it is.

Two different things entirely.

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 16, 2011, 02:32:40 PM
Garbage... tbombz try training that way OFF drugs
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Jaime on February 16, 2011, 02:35:48 PM
Allright, fair enough. So what I'm trying to say is this: Your muscles got bigger because you were able to train with heavier training loads. I'm not talking about a 1 rep max, I'm talking specifically about an 8 rep max, 10 rep max, 15 rep max. So it comes down to something like this: If one makes their biceps bigger, than their bicep training loads MUST INCREASE. Again a 10 rep max for example. So what is one supposed to go to get bigger biceps? Train with lesser and lesser training loads?


Your muscles get bigger becasue you are breaking them down and they respond by growing back a little stronger/bigger.

I respect Pellius as a poster but he is way off base here. Tiny variances in genetics translate to huge differences.

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 16, 2011, 02:41:32 PM
You seem to miss the point. There does exist a universal principle in regard to the human body that applies to everyone. And this is not limited to just bodybuilding. Once we find a cure for cancer it will cure everyone because we are biologically identical varying only in specifics. But in bodybuilding, like cancer, we haven't found the exact prescription.

Is it clear now?


Given the fact that there are roughly more than 200 DIFFERENT types of cancers, if you think one day doctors and scientists are just going to find a "cure for cancer" you are just a taddddddd off base... Furthermore, if you knew anything about medicine and science you would realize that cancer acts very differently in 1 person vs the next.... Moral of the story- you are a fucking dipshit.

Discuss.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Mr Nobody on February 16, 2011, 02:46:47 PM
All this talk about drug use ignores the fact that you still don't have a proper theory about training. What is the best rep range? Where should you work out, what time of the day, and what kind of comfortable clothing works best. These days I see people at the gym wearing all kinds of ridiculous outfits that may or may not aid their training. Has any of this apparel been tested or put through any kind of rigorous study? Its like the blind is leading the blind and the one eyed king hasn't even shown up for work.
Are you saying that apparel is a key to muscular development? I agree with the rest but apparel I dont think is a key explain further.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Jaime on February 16, 2011, 02:47:47 PM
All this talk about drug use ignores the fact that you still don't have a proper theory about training. What is the best rep range? Where should you work out, what time of the day, and what kind of comfortable clothing works best. These days I see people at the gym wearing all kinds of ridiculous outfits that may or may not aid their training. Has any of this apparel been tested or put through any kind of rigorous study? Its like the blind is leading the blind and the one eyed king hasn't even shown up for work.


Who gives a fuck. I train hard i grow, end of story. You sit there talking about this shit like it is the theory of relativity or something lol.

I think you are trolling when you start making comments like highlighted. Most ridiculous thing that i have read on this forum hahahaha.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 16, 2011, 02:49:25 PM
Stimulate growth with the least amount of work. Warm up, train to failure, leave more of the body's limited recovery ability to actually building the mountain on top, rather than attempting to fill in the damage done by merely the exhaustive effects of the training. Mentzer had it right.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: lovemonkey on February 16, 2011, 02:50:06 PM
Are you saying that apparel is a key to muscular development? I agree with the rest but apparel I dont think is a key explain further.

Who gives a fuck. I train hard i grow, end of story. You sit there talking about this shit like it is the theory of relativity or something lol.

I think you are trolling when you start making comments like highlighted. Most ridiculous thing that i have read on this forum hahahaha.

LOL the two of you have been trolled.

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Jaime on February 16, 2011, 02:51:56 PM
LOL the two of you have been trolled.




lol :D :D :D


Not out of character for Vince, flew over my head.


Two inches on arms in a month was the secoond most stupid thing.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Mr Nobody on February 16, 2011, 03:00:25 PM
Stimulate growth with the least amount of work. Warm up, train to failure, leave more of the body's limited recovery ability to actually building the mountain on top, rather than attempting to fill in the damage done by merely the exhaustive effects of the training. Mentzer had it right.
X2.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 16, 2011, 03:04:04 PM
One of my favorite Mentzer quotes goes something like this, "More is not better and less is not better, but... PRECISE IS BEST" He was refering to amount of exercise by the way. In my humble opinion Vince's training protocol would make any natural trainer get smaller and weaker. Sorry Vince, but your theroy would lead to gross overtraining for the vast majority of natural trainers.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Mr Nobody on February 16, 2011, 03:06:20 PM
LOL the two of you have been trolled.


Damn I'm outing myself right now.  ;D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 16, 2011, 03:32:55 PM
One of my favorite Mentzer quotes goes something like this, "More is not better and less is not better, but... PRECISE IS BEST" He was refering to amount of exercise by the way. In my humble opinion Vince's training protocol would make any natural trainer get smaller and weaker. Sorry Vince, but your theroy would lead to gross overtraining for the vast majority of natural trainers.

Defo. That's one of my favourites too. What really annoys me is that most people who give Mentzer a bad time saying "he copied Jones", fail to realise that he had advanced the theory of HIT leaps and bounds ahead of the Jones  (good at the time but) vague guidelines.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 16, 2011, 03:59:24 PM
You're right PJim, Jones got the ball rolling, but Mentzer perfected the whole HIT theroy/protocol. Mentzer kept decreasing volume and frequency until he got it right. The quote of Mentzer that really pisses me off and makes me furious is when he says something to the effect that "each and every workout should be a spectacular success" Meaning that strength and performance should get better and better. By the way there's a guy on youtube who goes by the handle of "buybulkwhey" and he says that he gained 15 pounds and went down 2% points of bodyfat within a 3 week time period.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 16, 2011, 04:28:03 PM
One of my favorite Mentzer quotes goes something like this, "More is not better and less is not better, but... PRECISE IS BEST" He was refering to amount of exercise by the way. In my humble opinion Vince's training protocol would make any natural trainer get smaller and weaker. Sorry Vince, but your theroy would lead to gross overtraining for the vast majority of natural trainers.

Ah, ha, I am debating with an HD devotee. Well, if you believe most of what Mentzer and Jones wrote then that you will reject what I propose. A pity both were mistaken about bodybuilding. It really is because I would prefer to do less.

In 1969 I went to train at Doug Hepburn's place. He had a super home training apparatus that he invented and had a larger personal unit for himself. I agreed to give it a go and he told me what to do. Would you believe he got me to do 20 X 5 maximum sets for biceps and triceps. It had concentric resistance only but he made sure I could complete only 5 reps. My arms grew 1/2 inch in two weeks training twice a week. I stopped when he lent his machine to someone for a promotion or something. I abandoned the 20 set protocol because of what Jones was advocating at the time. If we add eccentric resistance then perhaps 10 maximum sets might have sufficed? I never did debate hypertrophy with Doug so missed a good opportunity to find out why he recommended what he did. He was the first person to naturally bench press over 500 pounds and did that in the early fifties. Doug probably was more correct than Arthur Jones about the requirements of hypertrophy.
Arthur argued about intensity so I combined what he said with Larry Scott's prescription that you train until a maximum pump is obtained. I was able to achieve that by the 7th set including warmups. That wasn't anywhere near enough maximum sets. I might have done one or two in an ascending set. I totally missed what Hepburn prescribed. Intensity is a factor and should be included but volume is much more important.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 16, 2011, 04:34:00 PM
You're right PJim, Jones got the ball rolling, but Mentzer perfected the whole HIT theroy/protocol. Mentzer kept decreasing volume and frequency until he got it right. The quote of Mentzer that really pisses me off and makes me furious is when he says something to the effect that "each and every workout should be a spectacular success" Meaning that strength and performance should get better and better. By the way there's a guy on youtube who goes by the handle of "buybulkwhey" and he says that he gained 15 pounds and went down 2% points of bodyfat within a 3 week time period.

I put 23 pounds on in my first 12 weeks of HD...and none of it was fat, I kept my calories relatively low and kept track of my bodyfat by caliper.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 16, 2011, 04:37:07 PM
You posed the question whether one believes that a universal principle exist that will stimulate hypertrophy not whether or not me, Vince, or anybody else  knows exactly what it is.

Two different things entirely.



Not true. I am arguing that inducing DOMS in a target muscle using many maximum sets of about 10 to 15 reps will cause rapid hypertrophy if sustained over several weeks. This should be true for everyone who tries it as long as they are heavier in bodyweight each training day. Rapid strength increases will be a concomitant of this approach. This isn't guesswork but a fact. Some exercise scientists have supported what I propose and when that research was released that DOMS indicates remodelling and growth many forum experts were sceptical and still rejected it. Yes, who wants to abandon what they believe especially when they think they are experts in bodybuilding?

A true test is training arms or calves because they can easily be measured to see if progress is occurring. Inflammation is part of the size increases but over a period of weeks genuine hypertrophy occurs because the strength increases almost exponentially. Avoiding injuries is a requirement for such endeavours and proper exercise selection and form is paramount.  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 16, 2011, 04:37:40 PM

Ah, ha, I am debating with an HD devotee. Well, if you believe most of what Mentzer and Jones wrote then that you will reject what I propose. A pity both were mistaken about bodybuilding. It really is because I would prefer to do less.

In 1969 I went to train at Doug Hepburn's place. He had a super home training apparatus that he invented and had a larger personal unit for himself. I agreed to give it a go and he told me what to do. Would you believe he got me to do 20 X 5 maximum sets for biceps and triceps. It had concentric resistance only but he made sure I could complete only 5 reps. My arms grew 1/2 inch in two weeks training twice a week. I stopped when he lent his machine to someone for a promotion or something. I abandoned the 20 set protocol because of what Jones was advocating at the time. If we add eccentric resistance then perhaps 10 maximum sets might have sufficed? I never did debate hypertrophy with Doug so missed a good opportunity to find out why he recommended what he did. He was the first person to naturally bench press over 500 pounds and did that in the early fifties. Doug probably was more correct than Arthur Jones about the requirements of hypertrophy.
Arthur argued about intensity so I combined what he said with Larry Scott's prescription that you train until a maximum pump is obtained. I was able to achieve that by the 7th set including warmups. That wasn't anywhere near enough maximum sets. I might have done one or two in an accending set. I totally missed what Hepburn prescribed. Intensity is a factor and should be included but volume is much more important.
Basile, I disagree on the importance of the pump.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 16, 2011, 04:43:05 PM
Not true. I am arguing that inducing DOMS in a target muscle using many maximum sets of about 10 to 15 reps will cause rapid hypertrophy if sustained over several weeks. This should be true for everyone who tries it as long as they are heavier in bodyweight each training day. Rapid strength increases will be a concomitant of this approach. This isn't guesswork but a fact. Some exercise scientists have supported what I propose and when that research was released that DOMS indicates remodelling and growth many forum experts were sceptical and still rejected it. Yes, who wants to abandon what they believe especially when they think they are experts in bodybuilding?

A true test is training arms or calves because they can easily be measured to see if progress is occurring. Inflammation is part of the size increases but over a period of weeks genuine hypertrophy occurs because the strength increases almost exponentially. Avoiding injuries is a requirement for such endeavours and proper exercise selection and form is paramount.  

See, this is like one of the first actual ideas you've put forth in like the whole thread. See how much more fun it is when you aren't complaining constantly?  ;)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 16, 2011, 04:50:00 PM
Basile, I disagree on the importance of the pump.

Larry Scott was the best technician for bodybuilding training. He perfected exercise form in minute detail. He also forged methods to make his muscles get bigger and bigger. He used burns and all manner of painful protocols to achieve his end. I haven't seen any research about his training so we can't know for sure the effectiveness and value of the pump. Ray Mentzer and I talked about the value of the pump. Even if it is not the goal it will be a concomitant of training that stimulates growth. Some of the symptoms of the body when muscles have been stimulated to grow are shaking, sweating, and maximum pump. There is also a wonderful feeling of euphoria that accompanies this state. That is why Arnold said that getting the pump was better than coming. He should know!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Ursus on February 16, 2011, 04:56:25 PM
All this talk about drug use ignores the fact that you still don't have a proper theory about training. What is the best rep range? Where should you work out, what time of the day, and what kind of comfortable clothing works best. These days I see people at the gym wearing all kinds of ridiculous outfits that may or may not aid their training. Has any of this apparel been tested or put through any kind of rigorous study? Its like the blind is leading the blind and the one eyed king hasn't even shown up for work.

Study schmuddy lift weights consitently, eat reasonably well consistently and rest consistently and you get better. Simple
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 16, 2011, 04:57:09 PM
Larry Scott was the best technician for bodybuilding training. He perfected exercise form in minute detail. He also forged methods to make his muscles get bigger and bigger. He used burns and all manner of painful protocols to achieve his end. I haven't seen any research about his training so we can't know for sure the effectiveness and value of the pump. Ray Mentzer and I talked about the value of the pump. Even if it is not the goal it will be a concomitant of training that stimulates growth. Some of the symptoms of the body when muscles have been stimulated to grow are shaking, sweating, and maximum pump. There is also a wonderful feeling of euphoria that accompanies this state. That is why Arnold said that getting the pump was better than coming. He should know!

I agree that they feel great, but some of my most productive workouts are ones that have proceeded workouts where I didn't obtain a pump to write home about.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 16, 2011, 05:05:54 PM
I like countless thousands of bodybuilders have proceeded in a haphazard fashion where gains came slowly and occasionally not expected. When growth is almost imperceptible it is difficult to know what works and what doesn't generate hypertrophy. I am trying to reverse engineer the process and start when we know growth has occurred. What protocols led to the growth? What is the state of the body and so on. From experience I discovered that strength gains occur when I trained every third day. This was for pinch gripping so I am making a bold assumption that this will also be suitable for hypertrophy. I was pleased that in the fowl experiments involving stretching with loads Antonio got the best results from those who did that experiment. His frequency of adding resistance? Every third day.

If the state of rapid growth is accompanied by DOMS and you retrain the muscle every third day then the DOMS will be perpetuated. This might sound awful but to actually experience rapid growth makes the pain tolerable and even welcome! :) Please understand that I am talking about physiological processes and responses that will occur in everyone doing the same thing. The theory follows the hypertrophy.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Ursus on February 16, 2011, 05:10:40 PM
Surely if anything you said made sense you would have had a much better physique at your peak?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 05:15:01 PM
Given the fact that there are roughly more than 200 DIFFERENT types of cancers, if you think one day doctors and scientists are just going to find a "cure for cancer" you are just a taddddddd off base... Furthermore, if you knew anything about medicine and science you would realize that cancer acts very differently in 1 person vs the next.... Moral of the story- you are a fucking dipshit.

Discuss.

Oh brother, typical GetBig asshole. Instead of debating, discussing and refuting with logic and reason you immediately resort to insults. Something a coward like you would only do behind a keyboard because if you did so in real life you would have the living shit beaten out of you.

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 16, 2011, 05:23:13 PM
Oh brother, typical GetBig asshole. Instead of debating, discussing and refuting with logic and reason you immediately resort to insults. Something a coward like you would only do behind a keyboard because if you did so in real life you would have the living shit beaten out of you.



I've provided you with much needed education and called you out for being a moron... I'd be happy to do it in person also, Penis.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 05:25:32 PM
I've provided you with much needed education and called you out for being a moron... I'd be happy to do it in person also, Penis.

LOL! Sure  you would.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 05:35:27 PM

Go read some books bro... you really are stupid.

Ouch! Epic come back! "Good read some books, bro..." Utterly ruthless. Just for the record, I'm sure I've gone through more books in a year than you have in a life time and graduated from UCLA with a degree in Math and Applied Science having only two Bs and the rest A's in all my course work.

Keep shadow boxing in your TapOut beanie and Vale Tudo shorts in front of the mirror trying to convince yourself you're a bad ass.

Everything about you reeks of an insecure pussy.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 16, 2011, 05:42:00 PM
I've provided you with much needed education and called you out for being a moron... I'd be happy to do it in person also, Penis.
Penisless would tie you into knots and poop into the mess.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 16, 2011, 05:52:52 PM
Ouch! Epic come back! "Good read some books, bro..." Utterly ruthless. Just for the record, I'm sure I've gone through more books in a year than you have in a life time and graduated from UCLA with a degree in Math and Applied Science having only two Bs and the rest A's in all my course work.


Math and applied science, huh? What was the applied science about? What was your specialty?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 16, 2011, 05:56:41 PM
Surely if anything you said made sense you would have had a much better physique at your peak?

I was at my peak in 1975. I didn't realize the importance of DOMS until 1998 or so. I have debated this topic on the Hypertrophy Specific Forum but impressed nobody there.

You fellows have the benefit of my 52+ years experience bodybuilding and thinking about theories of training.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 16, 2011, 06:00:35 PM
I was at my peak in 1975. I didn't realize the importance of DOMS until 1998 or so. I have debated this topic on the Hypertrophy Specific Forum but impressed nobody there.

You fellows have the benefit of my 52+ years experience bodybuilding and thinking about theories of training.
*Sigh*.........OK Vincent.......post some before/after pics of bodybuilders you have trained using your theories.

Why do you think nobody on the "Hypertrophy Specific" Forum was impressed?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 16, 2011, 06:13:05 PM
You know DICK about science and shouldn't open your mouth about it, penis.


Outed.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 16, 2011, 06:15:43 PM
Oh wow... UCLA with a Math and applied science degree... What are you a high school math teacher now?! lol I am impressed.

I am a board certified general surgeon in my last year of surgical oncology fellowship. I graduated #2 in my medical school class. (#1 was a Chinese girl of course lol)

Several people on getbig know me personally and can vouch for who and what I am.

Either way, you lose I win. Go read bro... You know DICK about science and shouldn't open your mouth about it, penis.



Fucking "scientists" like you used to tell us that steroids don't work.  ::)

Why is it that people who don't have a valid argument allways throw insults, or trot out their worthless paper Achievement Awards.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 16, 2011, 06:17:51 PM
Fucking "scientists" like you used to tell us that steroids don't work.  ::)

Why is it that people who don't have a valid argument allways throw insults, or trot out their worthless paper Achievement Awards.
His parents paid alot of money to enforce affirmative action for him to get that paper "Achievement Award".
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 16, 2011, 06:19:08 PM
Fucking "scientists" like you used to tell us that steroids don't work.  ::)

Why is it that people who don't have a valid argument allways throw insults, or trot out their worthless paper Achievement Awards.

I'm sorry, we must have been looking at guys like Vince Goodrum when we came to those conclusions... lol

For the record, I was just responding to Penis-breath and his claim that he has "read more books than me" in 1 year than I have in my lifetime... and trumping his bullshit math degree with my Doctorate.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 06:24:13 PM
Oh wow... UCLA with a Math and applied science degree... What are you a high school math teacher now?! lol I am impressed.

I am a board certified general surgeon in my last year of surgical oncology fellowship. I graduated #2 in my medical school class. (#1 was a Chinese girl of course lol)

Several people on getbig know me personally and can vouch for who and what I am.

Either way, you lose I win. Go read bro... You know DICK about science and shouldn't open your mouth about it, penis.



I'm an engineer and if you are a board certified surgeon then, yes, that beats me. But it's astounding that someone with your education talks like a high school dick head who is routinely bullied. Imagine what your patients or people on the "board" would think if they read your posts here.

And, BTW, we are talking bodybuilding here. Have you posted a pic showing how advance you are and what makes you an authority?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 06:26:00 PM
Classy "Doctor" we have here.

I'd eat her ass.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 06:27:07 PM
His parents paid alot of money to enforce affirmative action for him to get that paper "Achievement Award".

LOL! He does sound ghetto.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 06:28:36 PM
I'm sorry, we must have been looking at guys like Vince Goodrum when we came to those conclusions... lol

For the record, I was just responding to Penis-breath and his claim that he has "read more books than me" in 1 year than I have in my lifetime... and trumping his bullshit math degree with my Doctorate.

Translation: "Please don't gang up on me. It reminds me of my real life where I get routinely ass raped."
Title: Re:
Post by: viking1 on February 16, 2011, 06:29:28 PM
(http://img273.echo.cx/img273/5767/04506rp.jpg)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 16, 2011, 06:30:51 PM
I know I’m your worst nightmare Chaos, a black man with an education.

LMAO!!! You're the only kind of negroid I like, you Uncle Tom, sell out mutha fucka!! ;D

I heard you were whiter than Wiggs.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 06:31:39 PM
Sure you'd love that if it were true, because it would make you feel better about your lack of achieving anything of importance in your life... but the truth is, I got into medical school because i worked extremely hard in college and earned my way in.

 I know I’m your worst nightmare Chaos, a black man with an education. Sorry dude!! I'll tip you well when you change the oil in my car...



LOL! Black man with an education and "earned my way in." Sure you did.

So fucking typical. Explain the chip on your shoulder.

From our educated doctor who "worked" his way through college.

Sal your tiny white cock wouldn't fit between those butt cheeks of hers!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 06:35:42 PM
LMAO!!! You're the only kind of negroid I like, you Uncle Tom, sell out mutha fucka!! ;D

I heard you were whiter than Wiggs.

You know he's reaching for his "gat" right now. You can take the neegarr out of the hood but you can't take the hood out of the neegarr.

What a disgrace to the medical professional.

Wer da wite wimmin at?

Ay yo STEVIE... I'd LOVE to tongue jack your blonde little wife in her shitbox... no offense. :-D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Hulkotron on February 16, 2011, 06:38:20 PM
Are we having a dick-waving contest in this thread?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 16, 2011, 06:39:49 PM
LOL Racist racist... It really eats you up doesn't it?! I love guys like you... You are my motivation!!!


Settle down Turk!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 16, 2011, 06:39:57 PM
LOL Racist racist... It really eats you up doesn't it?! I love guys like you... You are my motivation!!!



I have no dog in this fight but you kinda sound full of shit.

You would be the FIRST surgeon.....black, white or purple.... to hang around here and talk about eating chick's assholes....not buying it
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 16, 2011, 06:41:00 PM
Settle down Turk!

Chaos all bullshit aside, I know an awesome facial plastic surgeon who might be able to help that CONE of yours… no bullshit bro, I’d be happy to give you a referral.  ;D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 06:41:54 PM
Penis- you are taking all of this WAY too seriously dude. I am concerned for you. Your blood pressure is probably through the roof right now! Have you taken your lisinopril today?! HCTZ? Let me know if your need a refill... lol jk

I think you are coming on to me?! First you call me an illiterate guy and now you want pics of me?!

I never claimed to be an "authority" at all... I simply was responding to your RETARDED (yes I said it, RETARDED) post about cancer and what not. Maybe stick to Engineering?

My patients LOVE me (most of them) because I am as real as it gets. I don’t bullshit or beat around the bush, I let them know exactly what I think, what I can do for them, what I can’t do for them… All of their options- not just surgical but chemo, rads, hospice etc and spend a hell of a lot more time at the bedside than MOST surgeons care to do.

And truthfully, all BS aside I dont think my life or degrees "trump" yours at all... simply a different career path.


Where did I call you illiterate? I believe it was you that made that implication. And I can assure you my blood pressure is well within specs and living on beach front property here in Hawaii I'm am living a much less stressful life that you. It shows by how you immediately resorted to insults.  

My initial point that you considered retarded was that if we weren't biological identical the field of medicine would not exist. The general principles apply to everybody and it is only specifics that vary. We are even similar enough to pigs and mice that make medical experiments meaningful.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 06:43:21 PM
LOL Racist racist... It really eats you up doesn't it?! I love guys like you... You are my motivation!!!



I'm an Octoroon, my brotha. Yo!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: no one on February 16, 2011, 06:43:41 PM
Not true. I am arguing that inducing DOMS in a target muscle using many maximum sets of about 10 to 15 reps will cause rapid hypertrophy if sustained over several weeks. This should be true for everyone who tries it as long as they are heavier in bodyweight each training day. Rapid strength increases will be a concomitant of this approach. This isn't guesswork but a fact. Some exercise scientists have supported what I propose and when that research was released that DOMS indicates remodelling and growth many forum experts were sceptical and still rejected it. Yes, who wants to abandon what they believe especially when they think they are experts in bodybuilding?

A true test is training arms or calves because they can easily be measured to see if progress is occurring. Inflammation is part of the size increases but over a period of weeks genuine hypertrophy occurs because the strength increases almost exponentially. Avoiding injuries is a requirement for such endeavours and proper exercise selection and form is paramount.  

i agree with vince, now that he has put forward an idea, instead of just telling everyone else's were wrong.

i have switched to a very rep driven program that involves static holds and partials, all to failure.

this is what one set looks like (well use barbell curls as an example)

5 reps with olympic bar and 15 a side. hold at top of 5th rep for 10 count. at end of 10 count 5 more reps. hold for 10 count. at end of 10 count 5 more reps. now 15 partials in middle range of motion where i tend to feel it best in my bicep.

there is constant tension on the muscle the start of the set to the end of the partials. you arm bicep is on fire and swollen at the end of one set. by the time your session is over you cant curl your arm up to take the earbuds from your ipod out of your ear. i do 3 sets of 4 exercises like this, super-setting with triceps in the same manner. the whole workout takes a little over an hour with no rest set to set. in comparison to my last program i am doing 10x the number of reps per workout. it isnt about the weight being used- its focusing on the muscle working and making sure it is totally and completely wiped out when you leave that gym.

for the first 4 weeks i grew like mad, despite dieting. now im in my 5th week i am only now starting to see a diminishing return on this program- it worked awesome for the first month, and now it has taken its toll on my body. i have slept well over 16 hours today as my body is pretty fatigued. it has brought my arms up considerably, and i try to train them at least twice a week. i'll keep training like this until my gains stop, but as long as im getting the proper rest, nutrients and supps, i cant see it happening anytime soon.

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 06:45:18 PM
I have no dog in this fight but you kinda sound full of shit.

You would be the FIRST surgeon.....black, white or purple.... to hang around here and talk about eating chick's assholes....not buying it

My initial thought as well. But it's even worse if it's true. Shows how low the medical profession has sunk.

Obama care for everyone! All at no cost to you! Believe it!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 06:46:31 PM

Yep and as usual the BLACK MAN is winning... Bring it WHITE DEVILS!!!  ;D

Oh brother. Now you are just sounding pathetic.

Board certified surgeon, eh? Um, OK>
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 16, 2011, 06:47:18 PM
Groink, have you ever met ANY surgeon before? You can believe whatever you want, but I can bet you that 9 out of 10 surgeons you will ever meet are the most foul-mouthed, perverted, cocky, womanizing, impatient assholes you will EVER met. Find someone you know who has spent time in an operating room and ask them about how the surgeons are… then read my posts and then tell me your thoughts lol People have this belief that the operating room is this quiet place where a mouse could fart and you would hear it... In reality- the music is blasting, we are shooting the shit about what we did over the weekend, we are flirting with the nurses and med students... etc.

Either way, you have the right to your opinion.

(http://static.tvfanatic.com/images/gallery/donald-faison-as-turk.jpg)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 16, 2011, 06:48:54 PM
Groink, have you ever met ANY surgeon before? You can believe whatever you want, but I can bet you that 9 out of 10 surgeons you will ever meet are the most foul-mouthed, perverted, cocky, womanizing, impatient assholes you will EVER met. Find someone you know who has spent time in an operating room and ask them about how the surgeons are… then read my posts and then tell me your thoughts lol People have this belief that the operating room is this quiet place where a mouse could fart and you would hear it... In reality- the music is blasting, we are shooting the shit about what we did over the weekend, we are flirting with the nurses and med students... etc.

Either way, you have the right to your opinion.

Yes....i had my penis reduced a while back, it was a chick and she kept asking me if "i was sure"  :D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 06:49:03 PM
Groink, have you ever met ANY surgeon before? You can believe whatever you want, but I can bet you that 9 out of 10 surgeons you will ever meet are the most foul-mouthed, perverted, cocky, womanizing, impatient assholes you will EVER met. Find someone you know who has spent time in an operating room and ask them about how the surgeons are… then read my posts and then tell me your thoughts lol People have this belief that the operating room is this quiet place where a mouse could fart and you would hear it... In reality- the music is blasting, we are shooting the shit about what we did over the weekend, we are flirting with the nurses and med students... etc.

Either way, you have the right to your opinion.

Maybe in Texas and that's just sad. Props for elevating and instilling confidence in your profession. BTW, I do know a surgeon. Nothing like you. Class act all the way.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 06:51:08 PM
Never said my life wasn't stressful!! But it's not too bad at the moment... Yes generall principles apply to everyone, wow you are a genius... the specifics are EVERYTHING dude... again, please stick to speaking about topics you know about... Like beach front property in Hawaii, engineering, and being a homo.

You're losing it. Type to turn up the rap, gangsta. And make sure you roll the windows down so everyone can hate you more.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 06:52:21 PM
Yes....i had my penis reduced a while back, it was a chick and she kept asking me if "i was sure"  :D

LOL!

Why is whitey always trying to keep a brotha down?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 16, 2011, 06:57:04 PM
ut ut ut... now you are slinging insults too... blood pressure Penis... better keep an eye on it!!

Instead of basking in the glory of beach-front property in Hawaii you are on here talking shit to someone who you don't believe is a real physician... so, maybe you need to re-evaluate things homie.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 16, 2011, 06:57:34 PM
You're losing it. Type to turn up the rap, gangsta. And make sure you roll the windows down so everyone can hate you more.

Man it reallllllly eats you up inside, doesn't it?! WOW... I actually feel really bad for you.

Beach front property in Hawaii and you'd rather hang out on getbig and talk shit to me... LOL
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 16, 2011, 06:59:20 PM


Proctologist is sort of an antiquated term… but I'm glad that you are googling pics for me!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 16, 2011, 07:01:41 PM
I'm going to sleep soon, so speak now or forever hold your peace my little racist white love bugs lol  :-*
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 16, 2011, 07:02:38 PM
but I'm glad that you are googling pics for me!
Epic cry for attention.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 16, 2011, 07:05:17 PM
Epic cry for attention.

no need to cry for it, you give me plenty on your own bro!! Any more black jokes for this evening? How about one about Fried Chicken, Grape Soda and Watermelon?!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 16, 2011, 07:06:07 PM
I congratulate anyone with a medical degree. Science degree from a recognized university is impressive, too. No one should be dismissed or challenged with those credentials. That doesn't make them experts in hypertrophy but they should be able to participate in an appropriate fashion and contribute now and then.

Pellius made some layman comments about physiology that sounded okay. A doctor might and did take exception to what was said. However, when correcting someone I expect an educated person to proceed in a civil fashion without attacking people. Kill the argument or false notion but leave personalities out of it. Shame on you guys.

No one, the poster, suggested that intense hypertrophy training works for about a month then gains diminish. I have not done DOMS training for more than 4 weeks. I did arms and calves but my exercise execution wasn't the best and I ended up damaging my elbows and Achilles tendon. I now know that you never put your elbows on pads because you can damage the delicate sheath connecting the triceps. Heel raises if done ballistically can cause damage if done regularly and intensely for a long time. Experience teaches us what NOT to do.

It well could be that 4 weeks of intense training should be followed by a break to let the receptors recover. Well, not sure exactly what happens in growing muscles but the same phenomenon has been reported by doctors involved with bodybuilders taking anabolic steroids. HST theory requires a recovery inactive phase to get the best results. Hypertrophy works for a short while the you need to rest. Train another bodypart when you do that.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 07:08:34 PM
ut ut ut... now you are slinging insults too... blood pressure Penis... better keep an eye on it!!

Instead of basking in the glory of beach-front property in Hawaii you are on here talking shit to someone who you don't believe is a real physician... so, maybe you need to re-evaluate things homie.

Where did I say I didn't believe you were a surgeon? The second you've accused me of calling you something that I didn't. And now that the insults are turned towards you -- insults that you began, doctor; you start crying like a little black bitch.

And I need to reevaluate (no need for a "-" but you're the educated literate one) things? A board certified surgeon on a crude bodybuilding board talking about eating out a White woman's ass.

OK.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 07:12:23 PM
Man it reallllllly eats you up inside, doesn't it?! WOW... I actually feel really bad for you.

Beach front property in Hawaii and you'd rather hang out on getbig and talk shit to me... LOL

I'm talking shit to a crude, disgraceful, pathetic, excuse for a doctor while looking out at China Man's hat. Perfect way to spend an evening.

What's your excuse, doctor?

 
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 07:18:36 PM
I congratulate anyone with a medical degree. Science degree from a recognized university is impressive, too. No one should be dismissed or challenged with those credentials. That doesn't make them experts in hypertrophy but they should be able to participate in an appropriate fashion and contribute now and then.

Pellius made some layman comments about physiology that sounded okay. A doctor might and did take exception to what was said. However, when correcting someone I expect an educated person to proceed in a civil fashion without attacking people. Kill the argument or false notion but leave personalities out of it. Shame on you guys.

No one, the poster, suggested that intense hypertrophy training works for about a month then gains diminish. I have not done DOMS training for more than 4 weeks. I did arms and calves but my exercise execution wasn't the best and I ended up damaging my elbows and Achilles tendon. I now know that you never put your elbows on pads because you can damage the delicate sheath connecting the triceps. Heel raises if done ballistically can cause damage if done regularly and intensely for a long time. Experience teaches us what NOT to do.

It well could be that 4 weeks of intense training should be followed by a break to let the receptors recover. Well, not sure exactly what happens in growing muscles but the same phenomenon has been reported by doctors involved with bodybuilders taking anabolic steroids. HST theory requires a recovery inactive phase to get the best results. Hypertrophy works for a short while the you need to rest. Train another bodypart when you do that.

That was my only beef with this disgraceful doctor. I made a general statement and he could have simply pointed out why the analogy was wrong but instead resorted to insults.

It just goes to show that even high education (like wealth) is no guarantee that a person has class. And sure I sling mud with the best of them but only when provoke, especially gratuitously like this. Trying to have a serious and insightful discussion here is always ruined by low lives like this "doctor."

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 07:22:52 PM
LOL Civil fashion, on getbig? Be serious... Penis got all bent out of shape because I called him a moron, for posting moronic shit which he has no business posting about...

I love the "he's a surgeon, hed never post about eating a girls asshole" LOL Yes... all surgeons listen to classical music, sip tea and hang out at country clubs and only fuck their women missionary position. you guys are the best!!

Again where did I say "He'd never post..." I just find it disgraceful for someone in your profession. And, no not all board certified surgeons are civil and cultured. You're a prime example. You're a certified piece of shit.

Pray we never find out who you are and your real name. You'd be back to dealing Coke and eating out Black women's asses.

Pig!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 16, 2011, 07:24:30 PM
no need to cry for it, you give me plenty on your own bro!! Any more black jokes for this evening? How about one about Fried Chicken, Grape Soda and Watermelon?!

I have one  :D

why are chimpanzees always frowning ??

(http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/willow/chimpanzee-info0.gif)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 07:24:41 PM
Crude, disgraceful, pathetic excuse for a doctor? Wow... if this wasn't coming from a dipshit internet expert on getbig.com, this might actually offend me.  ::)



It does. That's why you can't get to sleep.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 07:27:09 PM

LOL you are a REAL PUSSY. Have a good night!

"Serious and insightful discussion"... on a "crude bodybuilding board" you are clueless and beyond my help, please don't have children.

Yes and you are extremely classy calling me a nigguh and such...  ::)

You're slipping again. Not comprehending. I said I get down in the mud with the best of them but never start shit. You, piece of shit that you are, and the reason why you give your race such a bad name, started the insults. Everything about your kind just reeks of no class.
 
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 16, 2011, 07:30:19 PM
no need to cry for it, you give me plenty on your own bro!! Any more black jokes for this evening? How about one about Fried Chicken, Grape Soda and Watermelon?!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 07:30:29 PM
LMAO... you are realllll classy bro with your racist bullshit. Really pathetic.

You might as well just say, "Sure you are but what am I?"

For a doctor you really don't sound that sharp.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 07:31:05 PM
I have one  :D

why are chimpanzees always frowning ??

(http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/willow/chimpanzee-info0.gif)

LOL! Priceless!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 16, 2011, 07:33:56 PM
I stand by everything I've said 100%- you are a racist dipshit. End of story. Nite!

Pointing out the ghetto culture that you exemplify and that is ruining this country is not racist. It's not the color of your skin, homey, it's your despicable ghetto, low brow culture.

Fucking low class piece of shit ape!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Coach is Back! on February 16, 2011, 07:43:10 PM
I just read about 1/2 of this thread whilst taking a shit and to say the parasites in my shit would be smarter than some of the babbling that's in this thread would be an understatement. Vince, give us your therorie on why you think your bicep tore during a deadlift and then I'll give you mine. You were really a teacher? In an actual accredited school? Fuck!!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on February 16, 2011, 08:30:44 PM
Given the fact that there are roughly more than 200 DIFFERENT types of cancers, if you think one day doctors and scientists are just going to find a "cure for cancer" you are just a taddddddd off base... Furthermore, if you knew anything about medicine and science you would realize that cancer acts very differently in 1 person vs the next.... Moral of the story- you are a fucking dipshit.

Discuss.

Low doses of cyanide and/or high doses of B17 will kill all 200 different types of  the cancer you talk about. FEAR is DEATH
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on February 16, 2011, 09:20:23 PM
Basile wants all noobs to follow his program. Of course it will work for a month. Increase your bodyweight before every 3rd workout means you're eating like a fucking pig. So of course the tape measure around the arm will increase. But for how long? At what point do you realize you're turning into a fat shit and start second guessing yourself? So instead of moving on in life, you start banging 300-900 pound fat women to feed your ego. Its a visious circle really. There is no end. And then one day you find yourself purchasing a 1980 dodge white windowless van with the words FREE CANDY spray painted to the sides wondering how the fuck you got to that point. Not worth it. DO NOT KEEP INCREASING YOUR BODY WEIGHT. ITS A DEATH SENTENCE PEOPLE!!!


                                                  "Passive Aggressive people think
                                                  they're the smartest people in
                                                  the room at any given time"


                                                      ---The Abdominal Snoman

                             
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 16, 2011, 09:55:50 PM
I added the point about increasing bodyweight for the hard gainer guys who can't gain weight. They won't gain muscle unless they can do so. Bloaters like yourself can disreguard that stipulation. You would be surprised how many active young guys can't put on muscle simply because of inadequate nutrition re calories. Eating properly should provide the essential nutrients but many here have outrageous ideas about protein and eating healthily. It is difficult to help overcome that nonsense.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Coach is Back! on February 16, 2011, 10:00:27 PM
Vince...what the fuck are you talking about and please answer my question!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 16, 2011, 10:02:05 PM
Vince...what the fuck are you talking about and please answer my question!
Answer my question too, Vince!!!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 17, 2011, 12:36:16 AM
I've already answered the question regarding the grand unified theory of hypertrophy. I can't take credit for this break through but I'm only a humble apostle spreading the gospel of truth.

Testosterona
Equipona
Trenbolona
Masterona
Ghona

Dianabolona and Anapolona worked in off and on depending need and circumstances.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Van_Bilderass on February 17, 2011, 09:02:41 AM
I added the point about increasing bodyweight for the hard gainer guys who can't gain weight. They won't gain muscle unless they can do so. Bloaters like yourself can disreguard that stipulation. You would be surprised how many active young guys can't put on muscle simply because of inadequate nutrition re calories. Eating properly should provide the essential nutrients but many here have outrageous ideas about protein and eating healthily. It is difficult to help overcome that nonsense.

I know you recommend 20-30 grams of protein a day tops. Could you give an example of how to eat a lot without exceeding this amount of protein?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 17, 2011, 09:21:32 AM
i agree with vince, now that he has put forward an idea, instead of just telling everyone else's were wrong.

i have switched to a very rep driven program that involves static holds and partials, all to failure.

this is what one set looks like (well use barbell curls as an example)

5 reps with olympic bar and 15 a side. hold at top of 5th rep for 10 count. at end of 10 count 5 more reps. hold for 10 count. at end of 10 count 5 more reps. now 15 partials in middle range of motion where i tend to feel it best in my bicep.

there is constant tension on the muscle the start of the set to the end of the partials. you arm bicep is on fire and swollen at the end of one set. by the time your session is over you cant curl your arm up to take the earbuds from your ipod out of your ear. i do 3 sets of 4 exercises like this, super-setting with triceps in the same manner. the whole workout takes a little over an hour with no rest set to set. in comparison to my last program i am doing 10x the number of reps per workout. it isnt about the weight being used- its focusing on the muscle working and making sure it is totally and completely wiped out when you leave that gym.

for the first 4 weeks i grew like mad, despite dieting. now im in my 5th week i am only now starting to see a diminishing return on this program- it worked awesome for the first month, and now it has taken its toll on my body. i have slept well over 16 hours today as my body is pretty fatigued. it has brought my arms up considerably, and i try to train them at least twice a week. i'll keep training like this until my gains stop, but as long as im getting the proper rest, nutrients and supps, i cant see it happening anytime soon.



THIS sounds great

LOVE no rest arm worouts, just switch from one exercise to the next.

And this reminds me of the catch 22 of drug free lifting. I have average to poor genetics, and I need VOLUME to grow. But when you train drug free as most of my training has been you can burn out with too many set extenders etc. The best ballance of volume and growth for me was GVT.

The few occasions I've had access to hormones I get really fuckin lazy and totally slack off on my workouts, whats up with that??  :'(
No fucking self discipline.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 17, 2011, 09:25:48 AM
Again where did I say "He'd never post..." I just find it disgraceful for someone in your profession. And, no not all board certified surgeons are civil and cultured. You're a prime example. You're a certified piece of shit.

Pray we never find out who you are and your real name. You'd be back to dealing Coke and eating out Black women's asses.

Pig!


You really are delusional, HOMIE. You are the one who was busted for buying drugs... and you are the sorry excuse for a man who was looking to take handouts from people on the internet lol Epic Projection.  ::)

I really honestly feel sorry for you. I'll pray for you!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 17, 2011, 10:04:04 AM
I know you recommend 20-30 grams of protein a day tops. Could you give an example of how to eat a lot without exceeding this amount of protein?

Vince B recommends only 20-30g of protein per day?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Van_Bilderass on February 17, 2011, 10:09:09 AM
Vince B recommends only 20-30g of protein per day?

Yes. Vince is a nutrition expert and after reviewing the research this is his conclusion.

Comment to Pellius. Being scientific means reading the literature and research findings and accepting the evidence for theories that are held and supported. Too many hold beliefs picked up from magazines and the gym. For example, how much protein does a guy like you need per day? You claim you used to take 300 to 350 grams and have cut that back to about 200 grams just to be safe. Well, someone like you who is not increasing muscle size probably needs only 20 grams of protein per day and probably no more than 50 grams. So you could save even more if you stop wasting it on unnecessary protein. The extra will be converted to energy and it is much cheaper to get that directly from fats and carbohydrates. You need to read university nutrition textbooks and not forum hearsay for your information.


Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Tito24 on February 17, 2011, 10:09:29 AM
(http://www.leblogauto.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/Joest_Jonathan_Ouaknine/Ferrari_crush_5.jpg)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: lovemonkey on February 17, 2011, 10:10:41 AM
Yes. Vince is a nutrition expert and after reviewing the research this is his conclusion.

You know, it's funny how Basile likes to blow smoke up his ass by talking about university education etc but I haven't so far seen him cite a single scientific study.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dr.chimps on February 17, 2011, 10:16:44 AM
You know, it's funny how Basile likes to blow smoke up his ass by talking about university education etc but I haven't so far seen him cite a single scientific study.
There's the one 'hypertrophy' study with chickens he's continually citing.    ;)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Van_Bilderass on February 17, 2011, 10:18:37 AM
You know, it's funny how Basile likes to blow smoke up his ass by talking about university education etc but I haven't so far seen him cite a single scientific study.

When the research that is there doesn't support his ideas he likes to say, "there is no research".  ::)

See the quote I put up above. As if there's no research on protein requirements or that the research supports this amount of protein intake for an athlete. His recommendation is below FDA daily requirements for sedentary individuals ffs!  :D



Oh well, on getbig everyone's an expert, even old fat guys.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Coach is Back! on February 17, 2011, 10:23:46 AM
When the research that is there doesn't support his ideas he likes to say, "there is no research".  ::)

See the quote I put up above. As if there's no research on protein requirements or that the research supports this amount of protein intake for an athlete. His recommendation is below FDA daily requirements for sedentary individuals ffs!  :D



Oh well, on getbig everyone's an expert, even old fat guys.

I'm going to actually give him the benefit of the doubt and say maybe he meant 20-30grms per meal....assuming he's eating more than once a day :-\
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dr.chimps on February 17, 2011, 10:24:45 AM
I'm going to actually give him the benefit of the doubt and say maybe he meant 20-30grms per meal....assuming he's eating more than once a day :-\
Have you seen a pic of Vince!?  ;D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Van_Bilderass on February 17, 2011, 10:25:42 AM
I'm going to actually give him the benefit of the doubt and say maybe he meant 20-30grms per meal....assuming he's eating more than once a day :-\

Nah  :D

Well, someone like you who is not increasing muscle size probably needs only 20 grams of protein per day and probably no more than 50 grams.


Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: no one on February 17, 2011, 10:34:22 AM
THIS sounds great

LOVE no rest arm worouts, just switch from one exercise to the next.

And this reminds me of the catch 22 of drug free lifting. I have average to poor genetics, and I need VOLUME to grow. But when you train drug free as most of my training has been you can burn out with too many set extenders etc. The best ballance of volume and growth for me was GVT.

The few occasions I've had access to hormones I get really fuckin lazy and totally slack off on my workouts, whats up with that??  :'(
No fucking self discipline.

exactly. well said- its a fine line for the natty where a program like this will cripple you. you have to really pay attention to your body and know when to gear down and take it easy cause something like this routine can throw you into over training in a heartbeat, especially if your macros are off, or your not getting enough rest.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: no one on February 17, 2011, 10:35:02 AM
Nah  :D


30-50 a day?!?!

come on.



Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Van_Bilderass on February 17, 2011, 10:42:03 AM
30-50 a day?!?!

come on.





He read it in a university nutrition textbook (yeah right).  ::)  :D

You need to read university nutrition textbooks and not forum hearsay for your information.


Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: no one on February 17, 2011, 10:52:31 AM
He read it in a university nutrition textbook (yeah right).  ::)  :D


k. i've seen a lot of stupid shit online, from guys who claim to know what they are talking about, but this is probably the most stupid thing i have ever read.

i think what happens a lot of time is that people get caught up with 'what they've read/ what studies show' when in the real world the application of said 'knowledge' results in less than positive results- but that doesnt matter cause its an accredited study done by a phd  ::)

heres a good example- ''tbombz' will argue up and down his stance on something based on what he's read. where as the real world application that he doesnt agree with due to it not being 'in what he's read' is not only effective, but highly effective- take ed tren administration. hed argue all day long it makes no difference if you take it ed or eod. but those who take it to the person will say ed administration yields far superior results, even though nobody can really say why. but because he hasnt read that it in a study that ed admin is better it is impossible for it to be.

too many textbook scientists on this site, not enough real world experience talking.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Van_Bilderass on February 17, 2011, 11:03:42 AM

i think what happens a lot of time is that people get caught up with 'what they've read/ what studies show' when in the real world the application of said 'knowledge' results in less than positive results- but that doesnt matter cause its an accredited study done by a phd  ::)



Here's the thing though, Vince didn't get this idea from any study, since we know even FDA recs are much higher. So it's a double fail for Vince.  :D

He tells us to read textbooks but doesn't take his own advice.

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: mass 04 on February 17, 2011, 11:06:53 AM
You see the only aw fuck it.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Ursus on February 17, 2011, 11:48:29 AM
I was at my peak in 1975. I didn't realize the importance of DOMS until 1998 or so. I have debated this topic on the Hypertrophy Specific Forum but impressed nobody there.

You fellows have the benefit of my 52+ years experience bodybuilding and thinking about theories of training.

Just because a thought pops into your head does not make it correct.

The fundamental biology of our bodies has not changed in a million years. The only thing to evolve in bodybuilding in 70+ years is drugs and diet knowledge. Training knowledge is basic and simple.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: JP_RC on February 17, 2011, 12:13:32 PM
I would say both training and diet knowledge are basic and simple...drugs are the only aspect that has evolved throughout the years.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 17, 2011, 12:22:34 PM
You see the only aw fuck it.

 ;D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 17, 2011, 12:54:23 PM
I am certainly no expert nutritionist… but I do believe that protein requirements really depend on a few variables such as- Current body weight and lean body mass, age, activity level, training goals (maintenance vs muscle building) etc.

To make a blank statement that EVERYONE needs 1 gram of protein per pound of body mass, or whatever is an error, in my opinion… Ditto for “you only need 20-50g per day"

I believe a more correct answer is “It depends.”
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Marty Champions on February 17, 2011, 01:26:46 PM
meet your daily poonteen requirements
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 17, 2011, 01:42:19 PM
meet your daily crack requirements like me

fixed.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 17, 2011, 02:17:50 PM
You really are delusional, HOMIE. You are the one who was busted for buying drugs... and you are the sorry excuse for a man who was looking to take handouts from people on the internet lol Epic Projection.  ::)

I really honestly feel sorry for you. I'll pray for you!


I'm really in pretty deep in your nappy head, nukka. I can assure you that I have a pristine criminal record. Can you say the same? And if you can find the slightest evidence or implication that I have ever asked for a handout from anybody for anything please do so or admit that you simply just made that up. Sounds like you're doing the projecting as it is your kind that has a profound sense of entitlement with their hand out and "you owe me" attitude be it affirmative action, reparations, AFDC, welfare, food stamps.... "Where's my 40 acres and a mule?" LOL!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 17, 2011, 02:20:54 PM
fixed.

For a board certified surgeon that you claim to be you sure have a lot of free time to post on a bodybuilding board.

I have an excuse. I have a lot of free time. But I don't have nearly the responsibility, stress and time demands that you must do being a doctor. But that's why you get paid the big bucks. Just seems odd that someone who claims to be in your position is even here and says the things that you do.

Very ghetto.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on February 17, 2011, 02:36:37 PM
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 17, 2011, 05:24:59 PM
Changing beliefs of muscle heads is virtually impossible. That is clearly the dumbbell syndrome and most here accept nonsense as long as their equally thick mates think the same. Thinking is what many here are incaple of doing. There seems to be a principle of sufficiency operating when parsimony and economy benefit from necessity considerations. If you need X grams of protein to grow and ingest several times that what can we conclude? Simply that such wasteful simpletons are ignorant of nutrition and foolishly go along with accepted crap driven by rich supplement companies.

It doesn't surprise me that the flotsam have little capacity to assess new concepts. They are already equipped with excellent excuses to justify what they believe. They honestly don't believe it is possible to get huge naturally and rapidly so they dismiss all training as the sole path to hypertrophy.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: flinstones1 on February 17, 2011, 05:25:30 PM
 “Science and Practice of Strength Training” (Zatsiorsky)
 The Repetition Method: This method can be defined as lifting a non-maximal weight to failure; it is during this fatigue state when the muscles develop the maximal possible force. Because of this it is only the final lifts that are important because of the fatigue state. This type of training has a greater influence on muscle metabolism and hypertrophy when compare to the other methods due to the direct increase in size of muscle fibers.  
  


Training to failure is the fastest way to gain musle size and strength. end of story!  Unfortunately I dont know anyone who can train to failure without leading to overtraining quickly.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 17, 2011, 05:31:14 PM
Changing beliefs of muscle heads is virtually impossible. That is clearly the dumbbell syndrome and most here accept nonsense as long as their equally thick mates think the same. Thinking is what many here are incaple of doing. There seems to be a principle of sufficiency operating when parsimony and economy benefit from necessity considerations. If you need X grams of protein to grow and ingest several times that what can we conclude? Simply that such wasteful simpletons are ignorant of nutrition and foolishly go along with accepted crap driven by rich supplement companies.

It doesn't surprise me that the flotsam have little capacity to assess new concepts. They are already equipped with excellent excuses to justify what they believe. They honestly don't believe it is possible to get huge naturally and rapidly so they dismiss all training as the sole path to hypertrophy.
I'm already huge naturally and I spent very little time near a smith machine......I win.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: TacoBell on February 17, 2011, 05:32:57 PM
Changing beliefs of muscle heads is virtually impossible. That is clearly the dumbbell syndrome and most here accept nonsense as long as their equally thick mates think the same. Thinking is what many here are incaple of doing. There seems to be a principle of sufficiency operating when parsimony and economy benefit from necessity considerations. If you need X grams of protein to grow and ingest several times that what can we conclude? Simply that such wasteful simpletons are ignorant of nutrition and foolishly go along with accepted crap driven by rich supplement companies.

It doesn't surprise me that the flotsam have little capacity to assess new concepts. They are already equipped with excellent excuses to justify what they believe. They honestly don't believe it is possible to get huge naturally and rapidly so they dismiss all training as the sole path to hypertrophy.

Your mom is huge naturally, did she eat a man named smith?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Mr Nobody on February 17, 2011, 06:04:02 PM
I'm already huge naturally and I spent very little time near a smith machine......I win.
Outed.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 17, 2011, 07:00:31 PM
I would say both training and diet knowledge are basic and simple...drugs are the only aspect that has evolved throughout the years.

Yes, that seems to be so but is false. Training knowledge has evolved and so has gym equipment, especially machines and cardio equipment. Nutrition has made advances, too, re research. The problem is being able to read the research, recognize valuable information and apply it sensibly.

Vince Gironda was the Iron Guru. He published articles about bodybuilding but he said that everywhere he went people wanted information. That is still true today. If you post about a method some people will send a personal message requesting more information or help with programs.

The drugs have prolifterated in use but nowhere is there any research about bodybuilders using these chemicals. It is chemical Russian Roulette playing with those potent substances for year after year. Because so many rely on the anabolic drugs training theory has fallen by the wayside but continues to be debated on many bodybuilding forums. There is still plenty to know about hypertrophy training.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: che on February 17, 2011, 07:12:22 PM
Yes, that seems to be so but is false. Training knowledge has evolved and so has gym equipment, especially machines and cardio equipment. Nutrition has made advances, too, re research. The problem is being able to read the research, recognize valuable information and apply it sensibly.

Vince Gironda was the Iron Guru. He published articles about bodybuilding but he said that everywhere he went people wanted information. That is still true today. If you post about a method some people will send a personal message requesting more information or help with programs.

The drugs have prolifterated in use but nowhere is there any research about bodybuilders using these chemicals. It is chemical Russian Roulette playing with those potent substances for year after year. Because so many rely on the anabolic drugs training theory has fallen by the wayside but continues to be debated on many bodybuilding forums. There is still plenty to know about hypertrophy training.
Why we should listen to you  ??? you are fat ,   when you were in decent shape you were juicing.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 17, 2011, 07:44:59 PM
Ignor my words at your peril. Not many on this sordid forum post anything of value. Most of the knuckleheads here wouldn't know good advice from bad. Sad but true and this thread is proof of the dumbbells in this community.  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Van_Bilderass on February 17, 2011, 09:09:40 PM
Ignor my words at your peril. Not many on this sordid forum post anything of value. Most of the knuckleheads here wouldn't know good advice from bad. Sad but true and this thread is proof of the dumbbells in this community.  

Show me one bodybuilder who got "huge naturally" using your principles. Show me one bodybuilder who will vouch for your expertise. Show me ONE!

No wonder you're in love with Vince Goodrum. Vince claims to be a trainer and nutritionist but he hasn't actually trained anyone, just like you never trained any bodybuilder. I think it's the 'fake til you make it' Americana syndrome.

There are a lot of retard trainers in bodybuilding yet Basile can't show even a single one example of successful application of his ideas. Not one.

Oh yeah, everyone's an expert on getbig, even old delusional guys.

It doesn't surprise me that the flotsam have little capacity to assess new concepts. They are already equipped with excellent excuses to justify what they believe.  

This is exactly what you do. You dismiss any research that doesn't fit your pet beliefs. You dismiss any personal experience which doesn't fit your pet beliefs.

Oh well, can't teach an old dog to sit.

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 17, 2011, 10:01:46 PM
Bilderass you have contributed very little to hypertrophy theory. You merely knock what doesn't fit in with your pet beliefs. That isn't science.

Goodrum is without any originality except for bullshitting all day long.

I have advanced hypertrophy theory. It matters not that the Flotsam dismiss it. Anyone who calls themselves a bodybuilder won't accept what I say because it goes against a lot of what they believe. That is perfectly predictable. I can simulate mental experiments and know that maximum hypertrophy can be approached using my methods. What I have outlined here is just a practical variation of the ultimate theory. What a pity that so many lack sufficient neural connections to be bold enough to try a new experiment.

I don't need to have successful disciples to know my theory works. I have tried it on myself and got amazing results. I haven't done the extreme version yet but who knows maybe one day......
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 17, 2011, 10:03:50 PM
Bilderass you have contributed very little to hypertrophy theory. You merely knock what doesn't fit in with your pet beliefs. That isn't science.

Goodrum is without any originality except for bullshitting all day long.

I have advanced hypertrophy theory. It matters not that the Flotsam dismiss it. Anyone who calls themselves a bodybuilder won't accept what I say because it goes against a lot of what they believe. That is perfectly predictable. I can simulate mental experiments and know that maximum hypertrophy can be approached using my methods. What I have outlined here is just a practical variation of the ultimate theory. What a pity that so many lack sufficient neural connections to be bold enough to try a new experiment.

I don't need to have successful disciples to know my theory works. I have tried it on myself and got amazing results. I haven't done the extreme version yet but who knows maybe one day......

NAME ONE YOU TRIAN!!! ....or you DIIIIiiiieeeeee



        *SHUNK*

*sninckt*
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: lovemonkey on February 17, 2011, 10:09:49 PM
Bilderass you have contributed very little to hypertrophy theory. You merely knock what doesn't fit in with your pet beliefs. That isn't science.

Goodrum is without any originality except for bullshitting all day long.

I have advanced hypertrophy theory. It matters not that the Flotsam dismiss it. Anyone who calls themselves a bodybuilder won't accept what I say because it goes against a lot of what they believe. That is perfectly predictable. I can simulate mental experiments and know that maximum hypertrophy can be approached using my methods. What I have outlined here is just a practical variation of the ultimate theory. What a pity that so many lack sufficient neural connections to be bold enough to try a new experiment.

I don't need to have successful disciples to know my theory works. I have tried it on myself and got amazing results. I haven't done the extreme version yet but who knows maybe one day......

This is probably THE most unscientific attempt at trying to be scientific I've ever seen.

Simulate mental experiments? Yeah hahahaha that's how science is done  ::) ::)

You could argue that Einstein used thought experiments a lot too, only major difference was that he actually provided the equations that could prove his way of thinking. Where are your equations, senile old man?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 17, 2011, 10:18:25 PM
I don't need equations. Bodybuilding isn't rocket science. It might as well be if we go by what the wannabes on Getbig believe.

The logic of my reverse engineering is behind the thought experiments. I have been bold, introduced something new and reformulated many of the principles long accepted in bodybuilding jargon. I hardly expect those who favour lifting free weights in gyms to abandon what they know. However, their closed minds prevents them from examining the theory afresh and embracing new ideas.

The sad fact is over 90% of advanced bodybuilders do not make any further progress. That probably applies to advanced intermediates as well. Most are on plateaus and have no clue except to resort to chemical tricks to get bigger. Just about everyone has abandoned a search for better methods. It is staring you in the face but you have been blinded by vulgar musclehead viruses that have destroyed your capacity to think logically and bravely.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Coach is Back! on February 17, 2011, 10:20:14 PM
I don't need equations. Bodybuilding isn't rocket science. It might as well be if we go by what the wannabes on Getbig believe.

The logic of my reverse engineering is behind the thought experiments. I have been bold, introduced something new and reformulated many of the principles long accepted in bodybuilding jargon. I hardly expect those who favour lifting free weights in gyms to abandon what they know. However, their closed minds prevents them from examining the theory afresh and embracing new ideas.

The sad fact is over 90% of advanced bodybuilders do not make any further progress. That probably applies to advanced intermediates as well. Most are on plateaus and have no clue except to resort to chemical tricks to get bigger. Just about everyone has abandoned a search for better methods. It is staring you in the face but you have been blinded by vulgar musclehead viruses that have destroyed your capacity to think logically and bravely.

Just found GH15's alter ego.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: lovemonkey on February 17, 2011, 10:31:18 PM
I don't need equations. Bodybuilding isn't rocket science. It might as well be if we go by what the wannabes on Getbig believe.

The logic of my reverse engineering is behind the thought experiments. I have been bold, introduced something new and reformulated many of the principles long accepted in bodybuilding jargon. I hardly expect those who favour lifting free weights in gyms to abandon what they know. However, their closed minds prevents them from examining the theory afresh and embracing new ideas.

The sad fact is over 90% of advanced bodybuilders do not make any further progress. That probably applies to advanced intermediates as well. Most are on plateaus and have no clue except to resort to chemical tricks to get bigger. Just about everyone has abandoned a search for better methods. It is staring you in the face but you have been blinded by vulgar musclehead viruses that have destroyed your capacity to think logically and bravely.

So lets see.

You don't need "equations". You don't need proof. You don't need any scientific studies because there are none  ::) ::) You always think you're right. Everyone else are idiots.



Yep, that's what science and open minded thinking is all about. You've captured it nicely there.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 17, 2011, 11:07:34 PM
k. i've seen a lot of stupid shit online, from guys who claim to know what they are talking about, but this is probably the most stupid thing i have ever read.

i think what happens a lot of time is that people get caught up with 'what they've read/ what studies show' when in the real world the application of said 'knowledge' results in less than positive results- but that doesnt matter cause its an accredited study done by a phd  ::)

heres a good example- ''tbombz' will argue up and down his stance on something based on what he's read. where as the real world application that he doesnt agree with due to it not being 'in what he's read' is not only effective, but highly effective- take ed tren administration. hed argue all day long it makes no difference if you take it ed or eod. but those who take it to the person will say ed administration yields far superior results, even though nobody can really say why. but because he hasnt read that it in a study that ed admin is better it is impossible for it to be.

too many textbook scientists on this site, not enough real world experience talking.
KEEP MY NAME OUT YOUR MOUTH BITCH

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 17, 2011, 11:32:26 PM
Vince, I think one of the reasons is that you have very little credibility here is that you make a lot of claims, some seemingly outrageous, but provide no proof or studies to support your beliefs. And then you accuse others of disregarding science and only going by muscle mags, hear say, and "bro science."

I've challenge you several times on two claims you have made and offered studies that dispute your beliefs. One is the claim that you only need 20-50 grams of protein per day and claim this has been known for decades. I think this claim comes as a surprise to many and I doubt that even you yourself follow this protocol. One would have to either be a vegetarian or really go out of their way to avoid protein if they eat a normal diet.

You also claim that age has nothing to do and certainly no obstacle to gaining muscle mass. In fact, you claim that it's easier for an older person to gain muscle mass than a younger person. Not only has this been disproved in the real world all throughout history there are studies that confirm this very real phenomenon and how the body goes through very real and obvious changes as it ages, most importantly for our purposes, is atrophy whether you engage in resistance training or not.

Please address these two claims and back it up with proof and studies. No excuses about how we are just flotsam and wouldn't understand or comprehend the studies or that you are under no obligation to provide information for free to back up claims you yourself make.
I'm just sincerely asking you to address these two issues because I have not been about to find anything from my own research to support your claims. If you once again ignore this very simple request then I just have to assume you are just here to spout out your theories having no interest in real discussion and debate which is what you claim you want and accuse this board of rejecting. And if that is the case, why are you here?


Protein requirements of the sedentary versus athletes
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1474076

As Good As It Gets: Octogenarian Muscles Don't Get Stronger With Exercise, Study Finds
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090331091250.htm

Aging Muscles: 'Hard To Build, Easy To Lose'
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090911103807.htm
 
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 17, 2011, 11:45:40 PM
Pellius, a serious concern deserves a considered response.

Let me address the issue of having successful people who have used my system and grown rapidly. Even if I had these people that is hardly sufficient proof for my theory. I am a student of the philosophy of science and as such embrace the standard that Karl Popper espoused many years ago. If one person follows my method and does not grow rapidly then my theory is false and will have to be modified. If it cannot solve the problem of the hardgainer then my theory will have to be abandoned. That is a strict test of the theory. In other words, I accept falsification as the test. If no one can falsify my theory then it has a good chance of being right.

If I am given groups of older men to train and cannot get them all to grow then my comment about being able to grow at almost any age is false. I have no doubt that everyone will grow. I haven't seen that my capacity to hypertrophy has diminished at all. I will be 69 this September.

The research re bodybuilding and nutrition has to be examined carefully before we can accept it. I still believe that no additional protein is needed if one is eating a balanced diet and providing sufficient calories to grow. That almost everyone else believes you need extra protein is a curiosity. It doesn't mean it is true.  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: backday on February 18, 2011, 12:36:45 AM
Pellius give it up man , you would never get a valid answer, many have tried for years and did not get any either.
By the way I think you are a very good poster, and I enjoy reading you.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 18, 2011, 01:00:22 AM
Pellius give it up man , you would never get a valid answer, many have tryed for years and did not get any either.
By the way I think you are a very good poster, and i enjoy reading you.

I want the kind of back you have. Many just look for wide lats and that exaggerated V taper. I like that thickness especially in the middle and lower back that you have. Very, very impressive.

One thing that I appreciate about Vince is that as much shit that it gets here he always maintains a certain level of decorum that connotes a measure of dignity that is unappreciated if not entirely lost on this generation. You never hear him resort to crude profanity that proliferates on this board, which I myself am guilty of. I get frustrated and angry with him at times and there was a time when I would insult him with the crudest of invectives when it suddenly dawned on me that he never responded in kind. The most you could get out of him was maybe "flotsam" and some other mild insults but never abject profanity. This caused me some degree of shame (which is another trait increasingly rare in what seems now to be an utterly shameless culture) and I made a personal vow that no matter how much he incites me I will always show him the degree of respect and courtesy that he has always shown me and no longer resort to crude and profane insults.

But as of now this only applies to him. Everyone else is fair game.  ;)
 
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 18, 2011, 01:16:07 AM
Pellius, a serious concern deserves a considered response.

Let me address the issue of having successful people who have used my system and grown rapidly. Even if I had these people that is hardly sufficient proof for my theory. I am a student of the philosophy of science and as such embrace the standard that Karl Popper espoused many years ago. If one person follows my method and does not grow rapidly then my theory is false and will have to be modified. If it cannot solve the problem of the hardgainer then my theory will have to be abandoned. That is a strict test of the theory. In other words, I accept falsification as the test. If no one can falsify my theory then it has a good chance of being right.

If I am given groups of older men to train and cannot get them all to grow then my comment about being able to grow at almost any age is false. I have no doubt that everyone will grow. I haven't seen that my capacity to hypertrophy has diminished at all. I will be 69 this September.

The research re bodybuilding and nutrition has to be examined carefully before we can accept it. I still believe that no additional protein is needed if one is eating a balanced diet and providing sufficient calories to grow. That almost everyone else believes you need extra protein is a curiosity. It doesn't mean it is true.  

First the nutrition part, here you are being far, far less specific. You talk about a balanced diet. What does that mean? How do you define "extra" protein and does it vary between a sedentary individual and a strength athlete? I wanted you to address the claim you made that you only need 20-50 grams of protein a day and that this has been know for decades presumably by scientific studies. It appears now you are claiming it is just your "belief" with nothing to back it up with. This is the very thing you accuse the flotsam of doing. Making claims without any concrete studies to back it up.

Here is a portion of the study I linked to that you obviously ignored. Definition of terms SA (strength athletes), LP (Low Protein define here as .5 grams of protein per pound of body weight), WBPS (Whole Body Protein Synthesis), MP (Medium Protein defined here as .8 grams of protein per pound of body weight).

It showed clearly that for someone of my weight (approx. 185 lbs) an LP diet of around 90 grams would hardly be enough though it is twice the amount you recommend.

For SA, the LP diet did not provide adequate protein and resulted in an accommodated state (decreased WBPS vs. MP and HP), and the MP diet resulted in a state of adaptation [increase in WBPS.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 18, 2011, 01:39:58 AM
Pellius, a serious concern deserves a considered response.

Let me address the issue of having successful people who have used my system and grown rapidly. Even if I had these people that is hardly sufficient proof for my theory. I am a student of the philosophy of science and as such embrace the standard that Karl Popper espoused many years ago. If one person follows my method and does not grow rapidly then my theory is false and will have to be modified. If it cannot solve the problem of the hardgainer then my theory will have to be abandoned. That is a strict test of the theory. In other words, I accept falsification as the test. If no one can falsify my theory then it has a good chance of being right.

If I am given groups of older men to train and cannot get them all to grow then my comment about being able to grow at almost any age is false. I have no doubt that everyone will grow. I haven't seen that my capacity to hypertrophy has diminished at all. I will be 69 this September.

The research re bodybuilding and nutrition has to be examined carefully before we can accept it. I still believe that no additional protein is needed if one is eating a balanced diet and providing sufficient calories to grow. That almost everyone else believes you need extra protein is a curiosity. It doesn't mean it is true.  

To address the claim that age has nothing to do with gaining muscle mass and may even prove an advantage: Again you offered no studies or real world examples though there are studies to dispute that claim and literally an infinite amount of real world examples given throughout human history. And how do you know that your capacity to hypertrophy has not diminished at all? Have you ever put that to a real world test? Are you claiming that you could duplicate, and even exceed, your Mr. Canada condition? You can prove your "beliefs" first hand and if successful can achieve something that no one else has every done in history. And I have no doubt, no matter how many people here dislike you, they will give you the props you deserve and you would shut them up for good. Hell, Ron may even give you those colored stars. In fact, I'm sure he would. I hope someone here will shop present day Vince's head on his past Mr. Canada physique for some inspiration. I'm sure Keith/No Worries would have jumped at the chance (RIP Big Man).

Some excerpts of the scientific studies that I linked to which also seems to have gone ignored.

As a result of the exercise program, the octogenarians were able to increase the amount they could lift with their quadriceps by 26%. That was the good news. The bad news was that the pre- and post-training MRIs showed that the training did not change their muscle size. The octogenarians were able to lift more weight after the training program, likely because the nervous system became more efficient at activating and synchronizing muscles.  

The genes involved in muscle growth are present in the resting muscle of the octogenarians at much higher levels compared to young people. These results suggest that the octogenarian muscle is already operating at peak capacity and may not have the potential for better performance, Dr. Trappe said.

A team of Nottingham researchers has already shown that when older people eat, they cannot make muscle as fast as the young. Now they’ve found that the suppression of muscle breakdown, which also happens during feeding, is blunted with age. These results may explain the ongoing loss of muscle in older people: when they eat they don’t build enough muscle with the protein in food; also, the insulin (a hormone released during a meal) fails to shut down the muscle breakdown that rises between meals and overnight. Normally, in young people, insulin acts to slow muscle breakdown. Common to these problems may be a failure to deliver nutrients and hormones to muscle because of a poorer blood supply.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: backday on February 18, 2011, 02:07:15 AM
I want the kind of back you have. Many just look for wide lats and that exaggerated V taper. I like that thickness especially in the middle and lower back that you have. Very, very impressive.

One thing that I appreciate about Vince is that as much shit that it gets here he always maintains a certain level of decorum that connotes a measure of dignity that is unappreciated if not entirely lost of this generation. You never hear him resort to crude profanity that proliferates on this board, which I myself am guilty of. I get frustrated and angry with him at times and there was a time when I would insult him with the crudest of invectives when it suddenly dawned on me that he never responded in kind. The most you could get out of him was maybe "flotsam" and some other mild insults but never abject profanity. This caused me some degree of shame (which is another trait increasingly rare in what seems now to be an utterly shameless culture) and I made a personal vow that no matter how much he incites me I will always show him the degree of respect and courtesy that he has always shown me and no longer resort to crude and profane insults.

But as of now this only applies to him. Everyone else is fair game.  ;)
 
Thanks for the props , now if I could always have as low bodyfat as you have that would be something :)
Yes, Vince does not resort to ``big`` insults or profanity about your mom or so , and I like that somehow.But when he tells us that his capacity to hypertrophy has  not diminished and here I am training like a ``maniac``  year after year and seeing that some muscle and strength disappear anyway , I think, no wonder people look at him as a fool and senile old man.............
And the phrase under my avatar is not really true it`s just a way of ``pump myself up`` and stay positive ;D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 18, 2011, 02:26:33 AM
Thanks for the props , now if I could always have as low bodyfat as you have that would be something :)
Yes, Vince does not resort to ``big`` insults or profanity about your mom or so , and I like that somehow.But when he tells us that his capacity to hypertrophy has  not diminished and here I am training like a ``maniac``  year after year and seeing that some muscle and strength disappear anyway , I think, no wonder people look at him as a fool and senile old man.............
And the phrase under my avatar is not really true it`s just a way of ``pump myself up`` and stay positive ;D

Nobody gets out this alive but guys like us we go out fighting to the bitter end.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dr.chimps on February 18, 2011, 02:51:46 AM
Ignor my words at your peril. Not many on this sordid forum post anything of value. Most of the knuckleheads here wouldn't know good advice from bad. Sad but true and this thread is proof of the dumbbells in this community.  
LOL. What are you, channeling Gandalf!?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 18, 2011, 03:02:02 AM
You make a great point flintstones. Training til failure IS the stimulus which sets the growth mechanism into action. Also, you are correct when you say that such a style of training can lead quickly to overtraining. Mentzer had an answer to this dilemma when he made the point that once must decrease volume and frequency in order to avoid overtraining and to keep growing in size and strength. Type "The Boise Experiment" into the google search engine, to see a prime example of Mentzer's Heavy Duty training style in action. P.S. Two fellas went through this 60 day experiment, and they even posted video clips of their experiment on youtube.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: wes on February 18, 2011, 03:14:28 AM
Fuck Mentzer!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 18, 2011, 03:24:25 AM
Dr Chimps fails to see my sense of humour.

Please, good people, allow that I have decades of experimenting with training. One advantage I had over many others is that back in the 70s I taught high school PE then ran my gym until 9pm. I finished up the books then had a workout. I had to be efficient and effective because I sure didn't feel like training hard and long in those days. Half hour workouts is all I did.

In the past couple of decades I haven't trained that much and that allowed me to discover something important about bodybuilding. You didn't have to train all bodyparts every week and that allowed me to specialize on what I liked doing. Finding out about DOMS was an eyeopener because we all believed Mentzer and Jones that we grew by resting. They were convinced that longer breaks between sessions were necessary. A whole generation of bodybuilders incorporated sufficient rest. The problem ignored by Mentzer is the Repeated Bout Effect. In the old days we did upper body MWF and Legs T Th Sat. No wonder gains came slowly or not at all. All of these factors combined to help me develop a new approach to bodybuilding. It works. There is no doubt whatsoever. Who will try it? Only the open-minded, intelligent young bodybuilders. Older guys are like old dogs and it is a waste of time talking to them. The trouble is the novices read what Ronnie and Jay do and base their training around that. That is fair enough but once they do that they stop looking for better ways to train.

The nutrition story is easy to explain. Anyone who has force fed himself for over 20 years will ingest plenty of protein through meat, chicken, eggs, and milk products. There is no need to take protein supplements. I accept that some research indicates various supplements can assist growth. Well, any student of bodybuilding will have to read the literature and adjust his intake accordingly. I don't claim to be an expert in nutrition. I can state I have not taken protein supplements. I tried some Hoffman stuff 50 years ago but it wouldn't mix with milk and tasted horrible. Most young fellows need a calorie supplement. Weider had a great one in the old days but withdrew it for some obscure reason. It tasted great and had zillions of calories. It wasn't Crash Weight Gain #7 but another product. Protein 101 or something like that.

Pellius thinks too much about this stuff.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 18, 2011, 03:52:07 AM
I'm curious Vince, when you say "You don't have to train all body parts every week" I assume that means that one's muscles don't start decompensating (losing size and strength) after a week or so of not training them right? So in your opinion or experience, when does the decompensation process start to occur? In my experience it starts to occur after roughly 3 weeks of not training a bodypart.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 18, 2011, 04:03:23 AM
If you stimulate hypertrophy in your arms then your whole upper body will get some benefit and you won't lose anything. The muscle system is interconnected via the shoulder in the upper body.

You worry too much. You honestly worry about losing size when you should be willing to pay any price to make your muscles grow rapidly. Why not try this method on your arms for a month. What have you got to lose? All the rationalizing is preparing you for failure before you start. Clear out all your ideas and don't think too much. Clever people and grocers, they weigh everything! I have vast experience. Use that and forget about thinking too much. By the way, what level are you at re bodybuilding?  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 18, 2011, 04:34:39 AM
I just got back into training regularly and consistantly about 3 or 4 months ago. At the moment I'm 165 @ 13-14% and my all time best condition was 167 @ sub-8. The problem I have with your theroy is that I firmly believe that it will lead to gross and acute overtraining. But who knows, maybe I should give it a run? I've gotta get to work now, but I'll give some thought to your proposal.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dr.chimps on February 18, 2011, 04:52:40 AM
Dr Chimps fails to see my sense of humour.
I do. It's a shortcoming I share with the rest of Getbig.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 18, 2011, 05:00:25 AM
Lee Priest and I both believe that overtraining is a myth or an excuse at best. Seems to me you have trouble gaining weight and if this is true then gains will be virtually impossible for you no matter what training program you do. My program stimulates growth and avoids doing too much in the body. It is better than Heavy Duty. If HD was correct then more bodybuilders would be using it. That isn't what we find so do we suggest they are foolish or that HD doesn't either work or suit them? I tend to believe the latter. No matter what you want to say about the pros they all got huge compared to most of us. They are doing more things right than the rest of us and that is true even if you subtract the drugs. Of course, many lose size when they go off the drugs because they stop training because they don't see the point. Had they persisted with training they might retain much of their size. I don't train my calves and they are still quite large. I go for bushwalks carrying a heavy backpack and a few cameras and that is training of a kind. My calves are over 17 1/2 and I haven't been walking much lately. When I do they increase another 1/2 inch. I can tell you I trained for years to get them over 16 1/2.

You have to admit you don't know what will happen to your body. Even if you don't try my method you should cut down to doing three exercises twice a week. Squats or leg presses, Bench or chest machine, and pulldowns to the top of the chest with a close grip. Do 3 max sets on each and you should grow. Not as much as doing 5 max sets. Maybe you could pick one bodypart each workout and do 5 max sets and 3 for the other parts. Warm up sets don't count. This is about as close to doing personal training as I am going to get here. It is free but it isn't worthless information. You have to weigh more each workout. Not much but enough to register on a scale that you are heavier. Weigh yourself at the same time before each workout. Good luck.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 18, 2011, 05:06:11 AM
Naturally, I am innocent of all charges that I am arrogant and condescending.  ;D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Hulkotron on February 18, 2011, 05:10:35 AM
Citing bodybuilders to back up your points is pretty stupid since they're all on outrageous amounts of hormones.

I'm not aware of many scientific studies that have looked at protein intake and muscle growth but I don't know that area well.  There is certainly tons of anecdotal correlational evidence, i.e.:

- everyone that any one of us have ever known who has gotten big and strong has probably eaten a lot of protein (Group A)

- everyone who is soft and weak-looking eats a bunch of shitty carbs (Group B)

The issue is that Group A works out hard and Group B doesn't.  Has anyone every actually tried a low protein diet while doing bodybuilding workouts?  What were your results like?  I'm thinking like 50-100 grams a day, with a good chunk of it right after your workout, rather than the 150+ that most of us are probably consuming.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Vince B on February 18, 2011, 05:37:16 AM
I don't need blue stars to know I am an expert in hypertrophy. I help people all the time at my gym. They are grateful unlike the know-it-alls on Getbig. If you want to refute me try the method and if it doesn't work then that is what will bother me. It will take a true world authority to correct me and not some internet quick draw. Good criticism benefits everyone. Nasty, personal stuff has no place in this discourse.  
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: no one on February 18, 2011, 05:41:52 AM
KEEP MY NAME OUT YOUR MOUTH BITCH



lol calm down, gloria.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Coach is Back! on February 18, 2011, 07:13:42 AM
What Xerxes said.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: flinstones1 on February 18, 2011, 07:15:11 AM
speaking of traning, what are your guys thoughts on training muscle groups twice per week vs 1? Even with pharmecuticals, I still find myself overtrained sometimes this way. Yet there is no doubt frequency is important, most bbers train one muscle group per week.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Hulkotron on February 18, 2011, 07:17:09 AM
What Xerxes said.

As an actual professional, what are your opinions on Basile's "theories"?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Coach is Back! on February 18, 2011, 07:37:25 AM
Much like GH15, he's full of shit. My professional opinion.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 18, 2011, 11:20:33 AM
Yes I have trouble gaining weight, muscle weight that is. I've "bulked up" 3 seperate times in my life. The 1st time I hit 190, the second time I hit 198, and the third time I hit 211. Each time I was a fucking fatass, well over 20% bodyfat, and I hated being that fat! So, I'm not too keen on gaining weight just for the sake of gaining weight, since I did it 3 seperate times in the past, and each time it was a complete and utter failure. I'm curious Vince, did you take a look at that experiment that I mentioned, The Boise Experiment? The 2 subjects followed Mentzer's Heavy Duty Ideal Routine, starting with 5 days btw workouts and extended it further to training once every 7 days. What I like about the one set til failure protocol is that it leads to less "wear and tear" on the body, and as Mentzer says leaves that much more of the bodies resources availible for repairing and growing the muscles larger and stronger. And yes, you make a great point about focusing on "The Big 3". Bench, squat, chin or row.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: no one on February 18, 2011, 12:01:08 PM
I just got back into training regularly and consistantly about 3 or 4 months ago. At the moment I'm 165 @ 13-14% and my all time best condition was 167 @ sub-8. The problem I have with your theroy is that I firmly believe that it will lead to gross and acute overtraining. But who knows, maybe I should give it a run? I've gotta get to work now, but I'll give some thought to your proposal.

tell us all again- we've forgotten since the last post you made.  ::)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Coach is Back! on February 18, 2011, 12:03:15 PM
LOL
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Meso_z on February 18, 2011, 12:07:06 PM
I don't need blue stars to know I am an expert in hypertrophy. I help people all the time at my gym. They are grateful unlike the know-it-alls on Getbig. If you want to refute me try the method and if it doesn't work then that is what will bother me. It will take a true world authority to correct me and not some internet quick draw. Good criticism benefits everyone. Nasty, personal stuff has no place in this discourse.  
So, what do you recommend? high volume?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: lesaucer on February 18, 2011, 12:15:53 PM
So, what do you recommend? high volume?

his recommendation..,,::
-have your own judges
-a handful of d-bol every morning
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Meso_z on February 18, 2011, 12:24:13 PM
his recommendation..,,::
-have your own judges
-a handful of d-bol every morning
:D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: kiwiol on February 18, 2011, 12:32:44 PM
:D

Vince will give you a lot more help if you tell him you're a young lad
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 18, 2011, 12:33:42 PM
Yes I have trouble gaining weight, muscle weight that is. I've "bulked up" 3 seperate times in my life. The 1st time I hit 190, the second time I hit 198, and the third time I hit 211. Each time I was a fucking fatass, well over 20% bodyfat, and I hated being that fat! So, I'm not too keen on gaining weight just for the sake of gaining weight, since I did it 3 seperate times in the past, and each time it was a complete and utter failure. I'm curious Vince, did you take a look at that experiment that I mentioned, The Boise Experiment? The 2 subjects followed Mentzer's Heavy Duty Ideal Routine, starting with 5 days btw workouts and extended it further to training once every 7 days. What I like about the one set til failure protocol is that it leads to less "wear and tear" on the body, and as Mentzer says leaves that much more of the bodies resources availible for repairing and growing the muscles larger and stronger. And yes, you make a great point about focusing on "The Big 3". Bench, squat, chin or row.

Shut the fuck up asshole. you have no business talking about adding muscle mass, because you never had any

NewsFlash.....your "peak" was no big fucking deal. PATHETIC arms... no legs... No shoulders.. No back

You had abs and a clean pec line because you were lean skinny....period.

PS.....I'm starting to doubt that's even you......i think you are a troll at this point

Devilsmile looks better than you ever did and the kid smokes weed and draws cartoons all day long
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: The Showstoppa on February 18, 2011, 12:35:17 PM
Shut the fuck up asshole. you have no business talking about adding muscle mass, because you never had any

NewsFlash.....your "peak" was no big fucking deal. PATHETIC arms... no legs... No shoulders.. No back

You had abs and a clean pec line because you were lean skinny....period.

PS.....I'm starting to doubt that's even you......i think you are a troll at this point

Devilsmile looks better than you ever did and the kid smokes weed and draws cartoons all day long

Damn bro......maybe go listen to some Erasure and calm down....... ;)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 18, 2011, 12:42:37 PM
I do. It's a shortcoming I share with the rest of Getbig.

 ;D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: kiwiol on February 18, 2011, 12:45:03 PM
;D

Just noticed that post, LOFL!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 18, 2011, 12:45:25 PM
Citing bodybuilders to back up your points is pretty stupid since they're all on outrageous amounts of hormones.

I'm not aware of many scientific studies that have looked at protein intake and muscle growth but I don't know that area well.  There is certainly tons of anecdotal correlational evidence, i.e.:

- everyone that any one of us have ever known who has gotten big and strong has probably eaten a lot of protein (Group A)

- everyone who is soft and weak-looking eats a bunch of shitty carbs (Group B)

The issue is that Group A works out hard and Group B doesn't.  Has anyone every actually tried a low protein diet while doing bodybuilding workouts?  What were your results like?  I'm thinking like 50-100 grams a day, with a good chunk of it right after your workout, rather than the 150+ that most of us are probably consuming.

I just posted a link and cited a specific passage where they measure the effects on a low protein, medium protein, and high protein diet on both sedentary and strength athletes.
 
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Palpatine Q on February 18, 2011, 12:53:00 PM
Damn bro......maybe go listen to some Erasure and calm down....... ;)

Yes...."A little respect" is what i need  ;D

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 18, 2011, 01:00:22 PM
Vince, you say over training is a myth yet you go on to say your program stimulates growth and avoids doing too much to the body. And allude to a protocol of training 2x/wk doing only 3 exercises. You also credit pro bodybuilders as doing something right when all along you've been criticizing wannabe bodybuilding for listening to the muscles heads and not to you.

Nonetheless, you disappointed me as you did not point to any proof or studies for my very specific questions to two very specific claims that you made. I read a lot of "I believe", "it's been my experience", "I am an expert in hypertrophy". In other words, you don't have any proof or scientific studies to back up your claims but simply your own opinion -- exactly what you accuse the board of doing.

As much as it pains me to say this  I have to agree with the always surprisingly clear thinking young Xerxes less than gentle assessment.

It was kind of shocking actually to find out that the old fat douche who cried "bro-science" etc actually just has his own bro science theory that supposedly is better because "he's an expert" and "has helped people in the gym", UNBELIEVEABLE.

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 18, 2011, 01:15:26 PM
VINCE!

You have seen what my minions have done to Flex Wheeler.

Soon you shall learn the power of ninjistu!

Stay away from shadows, death comes swiftly!!!


     *ffffffffft*
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 18, 2011, 01:22:50 PM
Thank you for the kind words pellius.  ;D

Yes, for your age, being an unabashed pot head, and a chartered member of generation nothingness, you seem to have a good head on your shoulders.

Carry on.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Zaphod on February 18, 2011, 01:28:35 PM
Yes, for your age, being an unabashed pot head, and a chartered member of generation nothingness, you seem to have a good head on your shoulders.

Carry on.


You are ALL just generation floastam as far as theories of muscle growth are concerned. Floating on a sea of ignorance, your bloated carcasses rotting in the fetid sunshine of stale ideas.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Jaime on February 18, 2011, 01:31:15 PM
Yes, for your age, being an unabashed pot head, and a chartered member of generation nothingness, you seem to have a good head of hair on your shoulders.

Carry on.


Bullshit!!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on February 18, 2011, 01:33:43 PM
Vince, you say over training is a myth yet you go on to say your program stimulates growth and avoids doing too much to the body. And allude to a protocol of training 2x/wk doing only 3 exercises. You also credit pro bodybuilders as doing something right when all along you've been criticizing wannabe bodybuilding for listening to the muscles heads and not to you.

Nonetheless, you disappointed me as you did not point to any proof or studies for my very specific questions to two very specific claims that you made. I read a lot of "I believe", "it's been my experience", "I am an expert in hypertrophy". In other words, you don't have any proof or scientific studies to back up your claims but simply your own opinion -- exactly what you accuse the board of doing.

As much as it pains me to say this  I have to agree with the always surprisingly clear thinking young Xerxes less than gentle assessment.



Pellius 2
Basile 0
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: kiwiol on February 18, 2011, 01:34:21 PM

You are ALL just generation floastam as far as theories of muscle growth are concerned. Floating on a sea of ignorance, your bloated carcasses rotting in the fetid sunshine of stale ideas.

Even the young lads? :'( ;D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on February 18, 2011, 01:34:29 PM

You are ALL just generation floastam as far as theories of muscle growth are concerned. Floating on a sea of ignorance, your bloated carcasses rotting in the fetid sunshine of stale ideas.

lolz
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Jaime on February 18, 2011, 01:38:58 PM

You are ALL just generation floastam as far as theories of muscle growth are concerned. Floating on a sea of ignorance, your bloated carcasses rotting in the fetid sunshine of stale ideas.



Zaphod Byron Basille.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: The Showstoppa on February 18, 2011, 01:39:46 PM
All hail the great Zaphod.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 18, 2011, 02:19:06 PM
Ok groink, so when did I ever say that I have or had lots of muscle? Also, how do you know that I have "no legs" and "no back"? Ok, I'll admit that I don't have much in the legs dept, but my upper back is BY FAR my best body part. In fact, Mr. Nobody can verify this as he has seen a recent pic of my upper back. But since you hate my guts so much why don't we come up with a contest here on getbig with the loser deleting their account? Let's say we each pick some kind of physical goal, for example getting lean, gaining size, and whoever comes cloest to achieving their goal wins. This should be an easy win for you, since I'm just a gimmick and I don't really exist, right? So what do you say tough guy?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 18, 2011, 04:59:36 PM
Yes...."A little respect" is what i need  ;D


Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Hulkotron on February 18, 2011, 05:08:31 PM
Haha how did Basile's name get changed to Zaphod?

Pellius and Xerxes are laying down whole sections of ownage in this thread.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 18, 2011, 05:10:35 PM
Lee Priest and I both believe that overtraining is a myth or an excuse at best. Seems to me you have trouble gaining weight and if this is true then gains will be virtually impossible for you no matter what training program you do. My program stimulates growth and avoids doing too much in the body. It is better than Heavy Duty. If HD was correct then more bodybuilders would be using it. That isn't what we find so do we suggest they are foolish or that HD doesn't either work or suit them? I tend to believe the latter. No matter what you want to say about the pros they all got huge compared to most of us. They are doing more things right than the rest of us and that is true even if you subtract the drugs. Of course, many lose size when they go off the drugs because they stop training because they don't see the point. Had they persisted with training they might retain much of their size. I don't train my calves and they are still quite large. I go for bushwalks carrying a heavy backpack and a few cameras and that is training of a kind. My calves are over 17 1/2 and I haven't been walking much lately. When I do they increase another 1/2 inch. I can tell you I trained for years to get them over 16 1/2.

You have to admit you don't know what will happen to your body. Even if you don't try my method you should cut down to doing three exercises twice a week. Squats or leg presses, Bench or chest machine, and pulldowns to the top of the chest with a close grip. Do 3 max sets on each and you should grow. Not as much as doing 5 max sets. Maybe you could pick one bodypart each workout and do 5 max sets and 3 for the other parts. Warm up sets don't count. This is about as close to doing personal training as I am going to get here. It is free but it isn't worthless information. You have to weigh more each workout. Not much but enough to register on a scale that you are heavier. Weigh yourself at the same time before each workout. Good luck.

Overtraining a myth? GTFO you moron
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 18, 2011, 05:44:45 PM
Overtraining a myth? GTFO you moron

How would you define "overtraining"?!

discuss.

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 18, 2011, 06:02:07 PM
How would you define "overtraining"?!

discuss.


anything more than optimal... getting weaker/not getting stronger because you did too much...  when breakdown exceeds buildup because of excessive muscle damage due to numerous strenous sets..


(stimulate, dont annihilate) -lee haney, tbombz..
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 18, 2011, 06:05:40 PM
anything more than optimal... getting weaker/not getting stronger because you did too much...  when breakdown exceeds buildup because of excessive muscle damage due to numerous strenous sets..


(stimulate, dont annihilate) -lee haney, tbombz..

Exactly. The human body does not have an unlimited capacity for dealing with training stress, nor any other stress.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 18, 2011, 06:07:44 PM
anything more than optimal... getting weaker/not getting stronger because you did too much...  when breakdown exceeds buildup because of excessive muscle damage due to numerous strenous sets..


(stimulate, dont annihilate) -lee haney, tbombz..

Well certainly whats optimal for one person, isn't necessarily optimal for the next based on many factors...

"When breakdown exceeds buildup because of excesive muscle damage due to numerous strenous sets" ehhh, i'm not really buying into this... I mean sure, if you are in the gym for 5 hours training biceps then you go home and eat a salad and nothing else you'll put yourself in a catabolic state...

but for someone with a reasonable diet, plenty of rest... i really think it would be DIFFICULT to "overtrain"... im not buying that if 4 sets is optimal, my 5th set is going to make me weaker and make me "overtrain".
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 18, 2011, 06:11:17 PM
Well certainly whats optimal for one person, isn't necessarily optimal for the next based on many factors...

"When breakdown exceeds buildup because of excesive muscle damage due to numerous strenous sets" ehhh, i'm not really buying into this... I mean sure, if you are in the gym for 5 hours training biceps then you go home and eat a salad and nothing else you'll put yourself in a catabolic state...

but for someone with a reasonable diet, plenty of rest... i really think it would be DIFFICULT to "overtrain"... im not buying that if 4 sets is optimal, my 5th set is going to make me weaker and make me "overtrain".

it has to do with where your muscles are currently at strength/conditioning wise.. and how much stress they can handle before breaking down under the pressure.

if you get better results by doing more lifting. by all means stick with that. for most beginners more usually = better. but once you reach a certain point, the amount of weights you have to lift in order to get bigger put a limit on ho wmuch work you can do befor eyou start causing excessive muscle damage that will get in the way of growth and recovery.

the idea is to stimulate your muscle to grow larger. when your alreeady well developed, annihilating yourself usually wont stimulate growth. youve got to do just enough to grow, and not more.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 18, 2011, 06:12:01 PM
Well certainly whats optimal for one person, isn't necessarily optimal for the next based on many factors...

"When breakdown exceeds buildup because of excesive muscle damage due to numerous strenous sets" ehhh, i'm not really buying into this... I mean sure, if you are in the gym for 5 hours training biceps then you go home and eat a salad and nothing else you'll put yourself in a catabolic state...

but for someone with a reasonable diet, plenty of rest... i really think it would be DIFFICULT to "overtrain"... im not buying that if 4 sets is optimal, my 5th set is going to make me weaker and make me "overtrain".

Well, it's not only not needed, it's counter-productive. Tbombz is right on this one. Once you've stimulated growth, additional sets are just like switiching a light swith on and off.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 18, 2011, 06:13:19 PM
it has to do with where your muscles are currently at strength/conditioning wise.. and how much stress they can handle before breaking down under the pressure.

if you get better results by doing more lifting. by all means stick with that. for most beginners more usually = better. but once you reach a certain point, the amount of weights you have to lift in order to get bigger put a limit on ho wmuch work you can do befor eyou start causing excessive muscle damage that will get in the way of growth and recovery.

the idea is to stimulate your muscle to grow larger. when your alreeady well developed, annihilating yourself usually wont stimulate growth. youve got to do just enough to grow, and not more.

A safe reply, I agree to most of what you said.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 18, 2011, 06:14:57 PM
yes, i would add this comes from personal experience and years of frustration after busting my ass in the gym, working HARD, annihilating my muscles week in and week out and not making much, if any, progress.  if hard work and annihilation was key, i would have been growing non stop. but i wasnt making progress. in fact alot of times i would regress, get weaker, and have to struggle bakc up. even on  juice. but now i come to find out that im not going to grow a shit ton in one workout. so i focus on making a small improvement every workout. do just enough so that i know i will grow, and not any more. this way i always progress.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Mr Nobody on February 18, 2011, 06:16:26 PM
Exactly. The human body does not have an unlimited capacity for dealing with training stress, nor any other stress.
Excellent post, not only that but each individual is limited by genetics not only for gaining muscle but recovery from intense excercise. Some can get away with more exercise than others but overall recovery is limited as is genes for building muscle.  8)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 18, 2011, 06:18:16 PM
Excellent post, not only that but each individual is limited by genetics not only for gaining muscle but recovery from intense excercise. Some can get away with more exercise than others but overall recovery is limited as is genes for building muscle.  8)
some may be able to excell with one program, while others may have to use a different program. i dont believe in implicit genetic limitations, only explicit barriers like mental retardation, disfigurement, etc.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 18, 2011, 06:19:39 PM
Excellent post, not only that but each individual is limited by genetics not only for gaining muscle but recovery from intense excercise. Some can get away with more exercise than others but overall recovery is limited as is genes for building muscle.  8)

Yep, yep. You know the score as usual Nobody. Mike obviously got through to you  :D
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 18, 2011, 06:23:39 PM
some may be able to excell with one program, while others may have to use a different program. i dont believe in implicit genetic limitations, only explicit barriers like mental retardation, disfigurement, etc.

Willpower and determination will only take you so far. I might want to be a 8 foot tall, black basketball player really bad, wanting that so badly isn't going to change the reality. Same with bodybuilding.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 18, 2011, 06:25:48 PM
Willpower and determination will only take you so far. I might want to be a 8 foot tall, black basketball player really bad, wanting that so badly isn't going to change the reality. Same with bodybuilding.
like i said, explicit barriers are one thing. cant change your bone structure, skin color, etc...   but theres never been any evidence of some kind of limiting factor present in  humans that would make it impossible for any individual to grow massive msucles...
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: haider on February 18, 2011, 06:27:27 PM
Don't forget to throw in a 'deep massage' every once in a while for teh RECOVERY!!!  8)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 18, 2011, 06:27:36 PM
like i said, explicit barriers are one thing. cant change your bone structure, skin color, etc...   but theres never been any evidence of some kind of limiting factor present in  humans that would make it impossible for any individual to grow massive msucles...

LOL, err how's about; muscular dystrophy? Add to that myostatin.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Marty Champions on February 18, 2011, 06:27:45 PM
i looked my best when i spent 2 hours a day EVERYDAY working out and semi starving myself when i was young

however i seem to get more attention from hoes as now that im older but fatter and bigger and not nearly as ripped
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 18, 2011, 06:28:45 PM
Well, it's not only not needed, it's counter-productive. Tbombz is right on this one. Once you've stimulated growth, additional sets are just like switiching a light swith on and off.

And you "know you've stimulated growth" how? LOL... I do not believe if ive stimulated growth at set 3, that at set #4 ive completely screwed myself up.

Moral of the story- experiment with different training methods... figure out which works best for you at a given time, eat well, rest and you will make progress.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 18, 2011, 06:33:15 PM
And you "know you've stimulated growth" how? LOL... I do not believe if ive stimulated growth at set 3, that at set #4 ive completely screwed myself up.

Moral of the story- experiment with different training methods... figure out which works best for you at a given time, eat well, rest and you will make progress.

Do a set to failure, get the fuck out of there. You've stimulated growth right there. You've just overcome the body's previous muscular ability and gave it a reason to respond and improve. Sure, that extra set won't COMPLETELY screw you, it just won't help you any more than the previous one already did.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Ursus on February 18, 2011, 06:36:49 PM
I disagree I doubt if I did 1 sets to failure on 3-4 exercises that it would be anywhere near as effective as what I do now. 4-5 sets
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 18, 2011, 06:39:22 PM
Do a set to failure, get the fuck out of there. You've stimulated growth right there. You've just overcome the body's previous muscular ability and gave it a reason to respond and improve. Sure, that extra set won't COMPLETELY screw you, it just won't help you any more than the previous one already did.

So you are saying doing 1 set to failure is all i need to stimulate growth? LOL come on... I can do a set to absolute failure where I literally can not move the weight another inch... rest about a minute and then am able to do more reps with the same weight. You say the rest of these reps and sets "won't help", not buyin' it.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 18, 2011, 06:52:43 PM
I disagree I doubt if I did 1 sets to failure on 3-4 exercises that it would be anywhere near as effective as what I do now. 4-5 sets

I'm with you... I have tried that and not been successful... everyone is different, blank statements that "this is what you should do" are crap...
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 18, 2011, 06:56:11 PM
So you are saying doing 1 set to failure is all i need to stimulate growth? LOL come on... I can do a set to absolute failure where I literally can not move the weight another inch... rest about a minute and then am able to do more reps with the same weight. You say the rest of these reps and sets "won't help", not buyin' it.

And I do not agree with you at all that doing a set to failure has "overcome the body's previous musclar ability... and that is reason enough to respond and improve etc"... even if last week i did a set of flat benchpress for 5 reps and this week i was able to do 6.

Look, I'm not going to argue with you. I trained the way you speak of for 2 years and LITERALLY didn't put on a pound. You don't have to believe that, but I have no reason to lie to you. I had that mentality, where I had some level of fear and uncertainty that I "wasn't doing enough to stimulate growth". I kept it up regardless of no progress. I switched to my current fashion of training...well I used to be 128 lbs. I'm a lean 198 lbs after 3 years of this type of training and EVERY other person I have trained with using this method have had very similar gains.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Alexander D on February 18, 2011, 07:00:21 PM
Look, I'm not going to argue with you. I trained the way you speak of for 2 years and LITERALLY didn't put on a pound. You don't have to believe that, but I have no reason to lie to you. I had that mentality, where I had some level of fear and uncertainty that I "wasn't doing enough to stimulate growth". I kept it up regardless of no progress. I switched to my current fashion of training...well I used to be 128 lbs. I'm a lean 198 lbs after 3 years of this type of training and EVERY other person I have trained with using this method have had very similar gains.

Again, everyone responds differently. Diet, rest, genetics all are part of the equation. I'm sure you have changed more than just your training routine to put on 70 pounds of muscle in 3 years.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 18, 2011, 07:09:19 PM
LMAO @ this whole discussion.....talk about overthinking shit.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Hulkotron on February 18, 2011, 07:19:01 PM
LMAO @ this whole discussion.....talk about overthinking shit.

Lifting weights is very complicated.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: haider on February 18, 2011, 07:22:32 PM
Lifting weights is very complicated.
says the guy who did his phD on the subject  ;D (related)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Hulkotron on February 18, 2011, 07:23:33 PM
says the guy who did his phD on the subject  ;D (related)

My work actually didn't have much if anything to do with lifting (but a lot to do with muscle!).
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: haider on February 18, 2011, 07:25:27 PM
My work actually didn't have much if anything to do with lifting (but a lot to do with muscle!).
what = your area of investigation into men in thongz?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Hulkotron on February 18, 2011, 07:27:32 PM
what = your area of investigation into men in thongz?

It was about properties of muscle and how they affect movement.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 18, 2011, 07:27:57 PM
Lifting weights is very complicated.
???

Pick it up, put it down........
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Hulkotron on February 18, 2011, 07:29:14 PM
???

Pick it up, put it down........

You are cheating yourself out of a potential 0.5 micrograms of lean mass per year with this knucklehead approach chaos.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 18, 2011, 07:30:55 PM
You are cheating yourself out of a potential 0.5 micrograms of lean mass per year with this knucklehead approach chaos.
Oh no. :o
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: haider on February 18, 2011, 07:31:10 PM
It was about properties of muscle and how they affect movement.
nice I wish I was smart so I could get in on this muscle gayning stuff.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Hulkotron on February 18, 2011, 07:32:53 PM
nice I wish I was smart so I could get in on this muscle gayning stuff.

Going to school for a long time doesn't necessarily make you smart.  I know lots of imbeciles with PhDs.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 18, 2011, 07:36:18 PM
Going to school for a long time doesn't necessarily make you smart.  I know lots of imbeciles with PhDs.
Takes one to know one.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Hulkotron on February 18, 2011, 07:45:48 PM
Takes one to know one.

I resemble that remark.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Coach is Back! on February 18, 2011, 07:51:33 PM
Who said there was no such thing as overtraining?????
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: newmom on February 18, 2011, 07:52:09 PM
Who said there was no such thing as overtraining?????

not me
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 18, 2011, 08:12:51 PM
Who said there was no such thing as overtraining?????

Basile...and Lee Priest apparently.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Coach is Back! on February 18, 2011, 08:22:20 PM
How come this doesn't surprise me? I'm under the impression that Basil never picked up an actual book in his life.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: kiwiol on February 18, 2011, 08:29:00 PM
Basile...and Lee Priest apparently.

dr.chimps sent me this link - trailer for the upcoming 'Atlas Shrugged' 3 part movie

http://io9.com/#!5758767/the-atlas-shrugged-trailer-stars-a-bunch-of-people-yelling-about-the-railroad-industry (http://io9.com/#!5758767/the-atlas-shrugged-trailer-stars-a-bunch-of-people-yelling-about-the-railroad-industry)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 18, 2011, 08:47:46 PM
Do a set to failure, get the fuck out of there. You've stimulated growth right there. You've just overcome the body's previous muscular ability and gave it a reason to respond and improve. Sure, that extra set won't COMPLETELY screw you, it just won't help you any more than the previous one already did.

in principle this idea about one set to failure makes a ton of sense. and it does work great for some guys. not for me though. but the general idea about training only as much as necessary is the same in my training. in order to avoid over training, i stay below failure. i dont get as much out of one set as you do out of your failure set, but i do more sets total and make up for it.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 18, 2011, 08:51:30 PM
Exactly. The human body does not have an unlimited capacity for dealing with training stress, nor any other stress.

Just as the esteemed Mr. Nobody referenced, excellent, concise and to the point.

POTD
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 18, 2011, 08:55:53 PM
Just as the esteemed Mr. Nobody referenced, excellent, concise and to the point.

POTD

Oh, but I totally disagree with how you train and I bet you don't actually train that way either, I bet your "warm up sets" are actual working sets.  ;)

(just like Dorian)
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 18, 2011, 09:05:35 PM
Serious question for all these "one set to failure" guys.........what weight/reps do you use? I mean do you use a weight you fail at 10 reps? 15? 25? 3? 4? How do you dictate that? What I'm asking is what says that failure at 3 reps is less stimulating to muscle growth than failure at 30 reps?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 18, 2011, 09:07:25 PM
Serious question for all these "one set to failure" guys.........what weight/reps do you use? I mean do you use a weight you fail at 10 reps? 15? 25? 3? 4? How do you dictate that? What I'm asking is what says that failure at 3 reps is less stimulating to muscle growth than failure at 30 reps?
is that really what your asking? isnt the answer obvious? 


..i dont do one set to failure, but i know that it works very well for certain individuals. a buddy of mine is 5'8'' 250 10% year round and thats the way he trains
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 18, 2011, 09:08:29 PM
is that really what your asking? isnt the answer obvious? 


..i dont do one set to failure, but i know that it works very well for certain individuals. a buddy of mine is 5'8'' 250 10% year round and thats the way he trains

is that a legit gh15 approved stat?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: tbombz on February 18, 2011, 09:10:26 PM
is that a legit gh15 approved stat?
  ???  yea he has won some regional shows, placed well at state shows
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 18, 2011, 09:15:22 PM
Oh, but I totally disagree with how you train and I bet you don't actually train that way either, I bet your "warm up sets" are actual working sets.  ;)

(just like Dorian)

To be honest, you should warm up but I rarely do. I know I should, but I always cycle to the gym which is quite a long way and I feel ready to go by that time.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Hulkotron on February 18, 2011, 09:15:25 PM
Will you idiots stop citing steroid users as examples for why your "theory of hypertrophy" works?  You can be on steroids and literally do fuck all and gain some muscle.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8637535
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 18, 2011, 09:18:04 PM
is that really what your asking? isnt the answer obvious? 


..i dont do one set to failure, but i know that it works very well for certain individuals. a buddy of mine is 5'8'' 250 10% year round and thats the way he trains
Exactly what I'm asking.......after all when the muscle fails, it fails, right? So why bother doing more reps if you can hit failure at 3-4 reps?


The whole "one set to failure" is a bunch of bullshit anyways, all those guys do tons of "warm up sets" before their one set.....oh brother.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 18, 2011, 09:18:18 PM
dr.chimps sent me this link - trailer for the upcoming 'Atlas Shrugged' 3 part movie

http://io9.com/#!5758767/the-atlas-shrugged-trailer-stars-a-bunch-of-people-yelling-about-the-railroad-industry (http://io9.com/#!5758767/the-atlas-shrugged-trailer-stars-a-bunch-of-people-yelling-about-the-railroad-industry)


 :o I hope it lives up to what it should be.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 18, 2011, 09:32:52 PM
Exactly what I'm asking.......after all when the muscle fails, it fails, right? So why bother doing more reps if you can hit failure at 3-4 reps?


The whole "one set to failure" is a bunch of bullshit anyways, all those guys do tons of "warm up sets" before their one set.....oh brother.

Here's my two cents Chaos. I alway aim to do at the very least 6 repetitions with a certain weight. Now the reason I don't just do one or two repetitions all out to failure is simple; the closer you get to your 1 rep max, the more likely you are going to injure yourself as the muscle is trying to fire at the limit of its capabilities from the start. Take for example a recent workout; one exercise was machine 3/4 deadlifts. My last effort I used 220kg for 15 brutal repetitions, also focusing on slow, controlled negatives for the last 5 reps with the aid of my training partners. Now, God knows what my 1 rep max would be on that exercise but just from a psychological stand point I would feel defeated by just looking at the amount of plates I was lifting. Doing a few more reps gives you time to neurologically set up (mind/muscle crap), and provide you with the preparation to get your form down for the failure rep. I'm not just saying this either, but I really do just walk in the gym and get to work straight away. The most I'll ever do in the way of a warm up is one set of something ridiculously light just to get a feel for the movement. Relatively speaking, there's no work/intensity put into any warm up.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: chaos on February 18, 2011, 09:36:33 PM
Here's my two cents Chaos. I alway aim to do at the very least 6 repetitions with a certain weight. Now the reason I don't just do one or two repetitions all out to failure is simple; the closer you get to your 1 rep max, the more likely you are going to injure yourself as the muscle is trying to fire at the limit of its capabilities from the start. Take for example a recent workout; one exercise was machine 3/4 deadlifts. My last effort I used 220kg for 15 brutal repetitions, also focusing on slow, controlled negatives for the last 5 reps with the aid of my training partners. Now, God knows what my 1 rep max would be on that exercise but just from a psychological stand point I would feel defeated by just looking at the amount of plates I was lifting. Doing a few more reps gives you time to neurologically set up (mind/muscle crap), and provide you with the preparation to get your form down for the failure rep. I'm not just saying this either, but I really do just walk in the gym and get to work straight away. The most I'll ever do in the way of a warm up is one set of something ridiculously light just to get a feel for the movement. Relatively speaking, there's no work/intensity put into any warm up.

How could it be your last effort if you walk in and go straight to work ???
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 18, 2011, 09:38:42 PM
How could it be your last effort if you walk in and go straight to work ???

By last effort, I mean what I achieved last time I trained in relation to previous training days.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: pellius on February 18, 2011, 09:45:53 PM
Here's my two cents Chaos. I alway aim to do at the very least 6 repetitions with a certain weight. Now the reason I don't just do one or two repetitions all out to failure is simple; the closer you get to your 1 rep max, the more likely you are going to injure yourself as the muscle is trying to fire at the limit of its capabilities from the start. Take for example a recent workout; one exercise was machine 3/4 deadlifts. My last effort I used 220kg for 15 brutal repetitions, also focusing on slow, controlled negatives for the last 5 reps with the aid of my training partners. Now, God knows what my 1 rep max would be on that exercise but just from a psychological stand point I would feel defeated by just looking at the amount of plates I was lifting. Doing a few more reps gives you time to neurologically set up (mind/muscle crap), and provide you with the preparation to get your form down for the failure rep. I'm not just saying this either, but I really do just walk in the gym and get to work straight away. The most I'll ever do in the way of a warm up is one set of something ridiculously light just to get a feel for the movement. Relatively speaking, there's no work/intensity put into any warm up.

incorrect, pjim. jones and mentzer would be disappointed. i'd jump in here but i can only type with one hand because my other hand is greasy while eating fried chicken and fries. i'll give you a hint: inroads, my friend, inroads. same reason why dorian, mentzer, viator (under jones) may have done one set per exercise but not one set per muscle group.

hmmmm...kfc drumsticks and thighs.....extra crispy...
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: PJim on February 18, 2011, 09:53:12 PM
incorrect, pjim. jones and mentzer would be disappointed. i'd jump in here but i can only type with one hand because my other hand is greasy while eating fried chicken and fries. i'll give you a hint: inroads, my friend, inroads. same reason why dorian, mentzer, viator (under jones) may have done one set per exercise but not one set per muscle group.

hmmmm...kfc drumsticks and thighs.....extra crispy...

I'm lost? ??? I understand inroads (HD 2 more than elaborated). I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Master Blaster on February 18, 2011, 10:02:43 PM
incorrect, pjim. jones and mentzer would be disappointed. i'd jump in here but i can only type with one hand because my other hand is greasy while eating fried chicken and fries. i'll give you a hint: inroads, my friend, inroads. same reason why dorian, mentzer, viator (under jones) may have done one set per exercise but not one set per muscle group.

hmmmm...kfc drumsticks and thighs.....extra crispy...

Fuck man, I'm so hungry!  >:(
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 19, 2011, 02:17:02 AM
Question to tbombz, Mr N, and PJim. Did any of you fellas take a look at "The Boise Experiment"?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 19, 2011, 02:31:59 AM
To answer your question chaos, I do 3 to 8 reps per set, and then once I get more than 8 reps I bump up the weight. Mentzer generally recommended 6 to 10 reps for upper body, and 12 to 20 for lower body.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: wes on February 19, 2011, 02:52:06 AM
Not many successful trainees/bodybuilders use Heavy Duty these days...........if any !!

The main reason Mentzer advocated it is because he wanted fame first of all,and he built the vast majority of his muscle mass using high volume training when he was younger..........add in lots of roids and decreased training time in the gym,and he simply maintained what he had already built earlier in his training life usinf HD.

As stated by others earlier in the thread,most guys who do use HD,usually do plenty of warmup sets,building up to their "one set to failure" which actually amounts to pyramid training.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: JP_RC on February 19, 2011, 11:06:37 AM
Do a set to failure, get the fuck out of there. You've stimulated growth right there. You've just overcome the body's previous muscular ability and gave it a reason to respond and improve. Sure, that extra set won't COMPLETELY screw you, it just won't help you any more than the previous one already did.

This is not universal for everyone. I can tell you I tried the HIT routines of 1 set to failure and made no progress whatsoever. Now I do about 3 work sets per exercies and it works much better for growth in me.
HIT dogma doesn't always work out well in the real world...there are other things to consider such as time under tension, volume used as overload, e tc.
There definitively isn't "one true way to train" like you try to say, different things work for different people.
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: big L dawg on February 21, 2011, 09:10:25 PM
Do a set to failure, get the fuck out of there. You've stimulated growth right there. You've just overcome the body's previous muscular ability and gave it a reason to respond and improve. Sure, that extra set won't COMPLETELY screw you, it just won't help you any more than the previous one already did.

thats what pumpsters motto was...you ever see the build he created doing that?

Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: Coach is Back! on February 21, 2011, 09:14:51 PM
HIIT is bullshit!
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: FREAKgeek on February 26, 2011, 10:51:27 AM
HIIT is bullshit!

HIT or HIIT?
Title: Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
Post by: dj181 on February 26, 2011, 11:06:46 AM
I think he meant to say HIT, since he is known to have his clients practice HIIT, and in fact he even had a halfway decent post about high intensity interval training within a discussion/debate with fatpanda.