Author Topic: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success  (Read 40037 times)

Mr Nobody

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #250 on: February 16, 2011, 12:29:15 PM »
They didn't know either  :D

Mentzer was juiced to the gills.....he would grow flying a kite or sucking on a penis
Excellent point, Genes rule throw in the roids you got your Mr O's.

Zaphod

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #251 on: February 16, 2011, 01:13:39 PM »
Excellent point, Genes rule throw in the roids you got your Mr O's.

All this talk about drug use ignores the fact that you still don't have a proper theory about training. What is the best rep range? Where should you work out, what time of the day, and what kind of comfortable clothing works best. These days I see people at the gym wearing all kinds of ridiculous outfits that may or may not aid their training. Has any of this apparel been tested or put through any kind of rigorous study? Its like the blind is leading the blind and the one eyed king hasn't even shown up for work.

pellius

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #252 on: February 16, 2011, 01:21:32 PM »
About this idea of training to failure, or sub failure, or in Tbombz more specific theory -- 2 reps short of failure, and the risks of injury it might, help to delve into a bit of common sense. Or at least what seems to be common sense.

The idea of lifting weights is to subject your body to an overload that it is not accustomed to with the idea (and hope) that it will stimulate an adaptive response. In this case, bigger and stronger muscles. It seems to me that if you are always doing things that are already easy, doing something that your body is already accustom to, this will not happen. If, for example, you can do 8 reps on the bench with 205 lbs and failing on the 9th rep but all you do in practice is always stop at the 8th rep, or in Tbombz case, stop at the 6th rep, never trying for that 9th rep, never trying to exceed your functional ability how will that stimulate an adaptive response? How will that signal to the body that a change is needed? What does it need to adapt to? Of course Tbombz will say that it is simply a matter of increasing the load. But if you can only do 8 reps at 205 lbs but stop at 6 reps, what difference does it make if you increase the load to 225 lbs when you probably could only get 4 or 5 reps but stop at 2 or 3?

And training to failure does not increase the risks of injury provided there is no degradation of training form. If you are sloppy with the squat you will hurt yourself and stand a much greater chance of injury regardless of weight though of course the resistance matters.

You get hurt when you exceed the structural integrity or tensile strength of your body be it muscle, tendons, ligament or bones. So it is the force generated that increases the chance of injury which decreases as the you preform a set there by making it less likely that you will injure yourself as you get closer to failure -- provided form is consistent.

Going back to the 205 lbs on the bench for 8 reps -- failing at the 9th -- you are your strongest during the first rep. Force is high but intensity is low. You could easily lift more than 205 lbs for that first rep. As you progress through your set strength, and consequently force, diminishes though intensity rises. Finally, on your 8th rep you can barely generate that 205 lbs though your intensity is at it's highest.

Because you actually get weaker as you approach failure you stand a much less chance of exceeding your structural integrity and tensile strength provided form is consistent.

Another point is that of course if you train heavy, going for the low end of the rep scheme to be able to manage a heavier load, you increase your chances of injury but even then form is much more important. Explosive movements dramatically increases the chance of injury regardless of the weight because of the force generated. Similar to why you can sit very comfortably in a car going sixty miles an hour as long as you accelerate slow enough. But if you go from zero to 60 mph your neck will snap off or, more commonly, go from 60 mph to zero (such as when you slam on your brakes) you will go through the windshield if you are not wearing seat belts.

You can take you fist and push as hard as you want on a brick wall and you will not injure yourself. Punch the wall as hard as you can and you will break your hand. It's the difference between velocity and acceleration.

pellius

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #253 on: February 16, 2011, 01:33:58 PM »
Yes....you don't know either. Very clear

You posed the question whether one believes that a universal principle exist that will stimulate hypertrophy not whether or not me, Vince, or anybody else  knows exactly what it is.

Two different things entirely.


Alexander D

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #254 on: February 16, 2011, 02:32:40 PM »
Garbage... tbombz try training that way OFF drugs

Jaime

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #255 on: February 16, 2011, 02:35:48 PM »
Allright, fair enough. So what I'm trying to say is this: Your muscles got bigger because you were able to train with heavier training loads. I'm not talking about a 1 rep max, I'm talking specifically about an 8 rep max, 10 rep max, 15 rep max. So it comes down to something like this: If one makes their biceps bigger, than their bicep training loads MUST INCREASE. Again a 10 rep max for example. So what is one supposed to go to get bigger biceps? Train with lesser and lesser training loads?


Your muscles get bigger becasue you are breaking them down and they respond by growing back a little stronger/bigger.

I respect Pellius as a poster but he is way off base here. Tiny variances in genetics translate to huge differences.

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Alexander D

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #256 on: February 16, 2011, 02:41:32 PM »
You seem to miss the point. There does exist a universal principle in regard to the human body that applies to everyone. And this is not limited to just bodybuilding. Once we find a cure for cancer it will cure everyone because we are biologically identical varying only in specifics. But in bodybuilding, like cancer, we haven't found the exact prescription.

Is it clear now?


Given the fact that there are roughly more than 200 DIFFERENT types of cancers, if you think one day doctors and scientists are just going to find a "cure for cancer" you are just a taddddddd off base... Furthermore, if you knew anything about medicine and science you would realize that cancer acts very differently in 1 person vs the next.... Moral of the story- you are a fucking dipshit.

Discuss.

Mr Nobody

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #257 on: February 16, 2011, 02:46:47 PM »
All this talk about drug use ignores the fact that you still don't have a proper theory about training. What is the best rep range? Where should you work out, what time of the day, and what kind of comfortable clothing works best. These days I see people at the gym wearing all kinds of ridiculous outfits that may or may not aid their training. Has any of this apparel been tested or put through any kind of rigorous study? Its like the blind is leading the blind and the one eyed king hasn't even shown up for work.
Are you saying that apparel is a key to muscular development? I agree with the rest but apparel I dont think is a key explain further.

Jaime

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #258 on: February 16, 2011, 02:47:47 PM »
All this talk about drug use ignores the fact that you still don't have a proper theory about training. What is the best rep range? Where should you work out, what time of the day, and what kind of comfortable clothing works best. These days I see people at the gym wearing all kinds of ridiculous outfits that may or may not aid their training. Has any of this apparel been tested or put through any kind of rigorous study? Its like the blind is leading the blind and the one eyed king hasn't even shown up for work.


Who gives a fuck. I train hard i grow, end of story. You sit there talking about this shit like it is the theory of relativity or something lol.

I think you are trolling when you start making comments like highlighted. Most ridiculous thing that i have read on this forum hahahaha.
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PJim

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #259 on: February 16, 2011, 02:49:25 PM »
Stimulate growth with the least amount of work. Warm up, train to failure, leave more of the body's limited recovery ability to actually building the mountain on top, rather than attempting to fill in the damage done by merely the exhaustive effects of the training. Mentzer had it right.

lovemonkey

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #260 on: February 16, 2011, 02:50:06 PM »
Are you saying that apparel is a key to muscular development? I agree with the rest but apparel I dont think is a key explain further.

Who gives a fuck. I train hard i grow, end of story. You sit there talking about this shit like it is the theory of relativity or something lol.

I think you are trolling when you start making comments like highlighted. Most ridiculous thing that i have read on this forum hahahaha.

LOL the two of you have been trolled.

from incomplete data

Jaime

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #261 on: February 16, 2011, 02:51:56 PM »
LOL the two of you have been trolled.




lol :D :D :D


Not out of character for Vince, flew over my head.


Two inches on arms in a month was the secoond most stupid thing.
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Mr Nobody

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #262 on: February 16, 2011, 03:00:25 PM »
Stimulate growth with the least amount of work. Warm up, train to failure, leave more of the body's limited recovery ability to actually building the mountain on top, rather than attempting to fill in the damage done by merely the exhaustive effects of the training. Mentzer had it right.
X2.

dj181

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #263 on: February 16, 2011, 03:04:04 PM »
One of my favorite Mentzer quotes goes something like this, "More is not better and less is not better, but... PRECISE IS BEST" He was refering to amount of exercise by the way. In my humble opinion Vince's training protocol would make any natural trainer get smaller and weaker. Sorry Vince, but your theroy would lead to gross overtraining for the vast majority of natural trainers.

Mr Nobody

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #264 on: February 16, 2011, 03:06:20 PM »
LOL the two of you have been trolled.


Damn I'm outing myself right now.  ;D

PJim

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #265 on: February 16, 2011, 03:32:55 PM »
One of my favorite Mentzer quotes goes something like this, "More is not better and less is not better, but... PRECISE IS BEST" He was refering to amount of exercise by the way. In my humble opinion Vince's training protocol would make any natural trainer get smaller and weaker. Sorry Vince, but your theroy would lead to gross overtraining for the vast majority of natural trainers.

Defo. That's one of my favourites too. What really annoys me is that most people who give Mentzer a bad time saying "he copied Jones", fail to realise that he had advanced the theory of HIT leaps and bounds ahead of the Jones  (good at the time but) vague guidelines.

dj181

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #266 on: February 16, 2011, 03:59:24 PM »
You're right PJim, Jones got the ball rolling, but Mentzer perfected the whole HIT theroy/protocol. Mentzer kept decreasing volume and frequency until he got it right. The quote of Mentzer that really pisses me off and makes me furious is when he says something to the effect that "each and every workout should be a spectacular success" Meaning that strength and performance should get better and better. By the way there's a guy on youtube who goes by the handle of "buybulkwhey" and he says that he gained 15 pounds and went down 2% points of bodyfat within a 3 week time period.

Vince B

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #267 on: February 16, 2011, 04:28:03 PM »
One of my favorite Mentzer quotes goes something like this, "More is not better and less is not better, but... PRECISE IS BEST" He was refering to amount of exercise by the way. In my humble opinion Vince's training protocol would make any natural trainer get smaller and weaker. Sorry Vince, but your theroy would lead to gross overtraining for the vast majority of natural trainers.

Ah, ha, I am debating with an HD devotee. Well, if you believe most of what Mentzer and Jones wrote then that you will reject what I propose. A pity both were mistaken about bodybuilding. It really is because I would prefer to do less.

In 1969 I went to train at Doug Hepburn's place. He had a super home training apparatus that he invented and had a larger personal unit for himself. I agreed to give it a go and he told me what to do. Would you believe he got me to do 20 X 5 maximum sets for biceps and triceps. It had concentric resistance only but he made sure I could complete only 5 reps. My arms grew 1/2 inch in two weeks training twice a week. I stopped when he lent his machine to someone for a promotion or something. I abandoned the 20 set protocol because of what Jones was advocating at the time. If we add eccentric resistance then perhaps 10 maximum sets might have sufficed? I never did debate hypertrophy with Doug so missed a good opportunity to find out why he recommended what he did. He was the first person to naturally bench press over 500 pounds and did that in the early fifties. Doug probably was more correct than Arthur Jones about the requirements of hypertrophy.
Arthur argued about intensity so I combined what he said with Larry Scott's prescription that you train until a maximum pump is obtained. I was able to achieve that by the 7th set including warmups. That wasn't anywhere near enough maximum sets. I might have done one or two in an ascending set. I totally missed what Hepburn prescribed. Intensity is a factor and should be included but volume is much more important.

PJim

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #268 on: February 16, 2011, 04:34:00 PM »
You're right PJim, Jones got the ball rolling, but Mentzer perfected the whole HIT theroy/protocol. Mentzer kept decreasing volume and frequency until he got it right. The quote of Mentzer that really pisses me off and makes me furious is when he says something to the effect that "each and every workout should be a spectacular success" Meaning that strength and performance should get better and better. By the way there's a guy on youtube who goes by the handle of "buybulkwhey" and he says that he gained 15 pounds and went down 2% points of bodyfat within a 3 week time period.

I put 23 pounds on in my first 12 weeks of HD...and none of it was fat, I kept my calories relatively low and kept track of my bodyfat by caliper.

Vince B

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #269 on: February 16, 2011, 04:37:07 PM »
You posed the question whether one believes that a universal principle exist that will stimulate hypertrophy not whether or not me, Vince, or anybody else  knows exactly what it is.

Two different things entirely.



Not true. I am arguing that inducing DOMS in a target muscle using many maximum sets of about 10 to 15 reps will cause rapid hypertrophy if sustained over several weeks. This should be true for everyone who tries it as long as they are heavier in bodyweight each training day. Rapid strength increases will be a concomitant of this approach. This isn't guesswork but a fact. Some exercise scientists have supported what I propose and when that research was released that DOMS indicates remodelling and growth many forum experts were sceptical and still rejected it. Yes, who wants to abandon what they believe especially when they think they are experts in bodybuilding?

A true test is training arms or calves because they can easily be measured to see if progress is occurring. Inflammation is part of the size increases but over a period of weeks genuine hypertrophy occurs because the strength increases almost exponentially. Avoiding injuries is a requirement for such endeavours and proper exercise selection and form is paramount.

PJim

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #270 on: February 16, 2011, 04:37:40 PM »

Ah, ha, I am debating with an HD devotee. Well, if you believe most of what Mentzer and Jones wrote then that you will reject what I propose. A pity both were mistaken about bodybuilding. It really is because I would prefer to do less.

In 1969 I went to train at Doug Hepburn's place. He had a super home training apparatus that he invented and had a larger personal unit for himself. I agreed to give it a go and he told me what to do. Would you believe he got me to do 20 X 5 maximum sets for biceps and triceps. It had concentric resistance only but he made sure I could complete only 5 reps. My arms grew 1/2 inch in two weeks training twice a week. I stopped when he lent his machine to someone for a promotion or something. I abandoned the 20 set protocol because of what Jones was advocating at the time. If we add eccentric resistance then perhaps 10 maximum sets might have sufficed? I never did debate hypertrophy with Doug so missed a good opportunity to find out why he recommended what he did. He was the first person to naturally bench press over 500 pounds and did that in the early fifties. Doug probably was more correct than Arthur Jones about the requirements of hypertrophy.
Arthur argued about intensity so I combined what he said with Larry Scott's prescription that you train until a maximum pump is obtained. I was able to achieve that by the 7th set including warmups. That wasn't anywhere near enough maximum sets. I might have done one or two in an accending set. I totally missed what Hepburn prescribed. Intensity is a factor and should be included but volume is much more important.

Basile, I disagree on the importance of the pump.

Master Blaster

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #271 on: February 16, 2011, 04:43:05 PM »
Not true. I am arguing that inducing DOMS in a target muscle using many maximum sets of about 10 to 15 reps will cause rapid hypertrophy if sustained over several weeks. This should be true for everyone who tries it as long as they are heavier in bodyweight each training day. Rapid strength increases will be a concomitant of this approach. This isn't guesswork but a fact. Some exercise scientists have supported what I propose and when that research was released that DOMS indicates remodelling and growth many forum experts were sceptical and still rejected it. Yes, who wants to abandon what they believe especially when they think they are experts in bodybuilding?

A true test is training arms or calves because they can easily be measured to see if progress is occurring. Inflammation is part of the size increases but over a period of weeks genuine hypertrophy occurs because the strength increases almost exponentially. Avoiding injuries is a requirement for such endeavours and proper exercise selection and form is paramount.


See, this is like one of the first actual ideas you've put forth in like the whole thread. See how much more fun it is when you aren't complaining constantly?  ;)

Vince B

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #272 on: February 16, 2011, 04:50:00 PM »
Basile, I disagree on the importance of the pump.

Larry Scott was the best technician for bodybuilding training. He perfected exercise form in minute detail. He also forged methods to make his muscles get bigger and bigger. He used burns and all manner of painful protocols to achieve his end. I haven't seen any research about his training so we can't know for sure the effectiveness and value of the pump. Ray Mentzer and I talked about the value of the pump. Even if it is not the goal it will be a concomitant of training that stimulates growth. Some of the symptoms of the body when muscles have been stimulated to grow are shaking, sweating, and maximum pump. There is also a wonderful feeling of euphoria that accompanies this state. That is why Arnold said that getting the pump was better than coming. He should know!

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #273 on: February 16, 2011, 04:56:25 PM »
All this talk about drug use ignores the fact that you still don't have a proper theory about training. What is the best rep range? Where should you work out, what time of the day, and what kind of comfortable clothing works best. These days I see people at the gym wearing all kinds of ridiculous outfits that may or may not aid their training. Has any of this apparel been tested or put through any kind of rigorous study? Its like the blind is leading the blind and the one eyed king hasn't even shown up for work.

Study schmuddy lift weights consitently, eat reasonably well consistently and rest consistently and you get better. Simple

PJim

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #274 on: February 16, 2011, 04:57:09 PM »
Larry Scott was the best technician for bodybuilding training. He perfected exercise form in minute detail. He also forged methods to make his muscles get bigger and bigger. He used burns and all manner of painful protocols to achieve his end. I haven't seen any research about his training so we can't know for sure the effectiveness and value of the pump. Ray Mentzer and I talked about the value of the pump. Even if it is not the goal it will be a concomitant of training that stimulates growth. Some of the symptoms of the body when muscles have been stimulated to grow are shaking, sweating, and maximum pump. There is also a wonderful feeling of euphoria that accompanies this state. That is why Arnold said that getting the pump was better than coming. He should know!

I agree that they feel great, but some of my most productive workouts are ones that have proceeded workouts where I didn't obtain a pump to write home about.