stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success

[dr.chimps]

Hasn't anyone punched your semantic, critical, logical nose yet?

What a windbag. 

[Palpatine Q]

What a windbag.  

Seriously....You would think at his age he would be more than willing to have a serious give-and-take discussion about training.

But he's a troll....he changes the goalposts...Calls people stupid when they make a completely valid point.....Has the usual Superoirity complex and pats himself on the back for no reason.

All the typical Troll Tricks....at what...70 fucking years old?

[Master Blaster]

Seriously....You would think at his age he would be more than willing to have a serious give-and-take discussion about training.

But he's a troll....he changes the goalposts...Calls people stupid when they make a completely valid point.....Has the usual Superoirity complex and pats himself on the back for no reason.

All the typical Troll Tricks....at what...70 fucking years old?

Where is the science to back up your theory? you think I'm troll but you have no science to back up your claim. Everyone thinks they understand what it means, but these kids have no information to base their claims on. Now everyone thinks they have all the answers, but arriving at a real theory requires too much work.

[Vince B]

Listen, folks, and other Getbiggers, otherwise collectively best described as Flotsam. Dr Chimps has contributed zero knowledge to hypertrophy theory. We don't even know if he goes to a gym or does pushups in his bedroom. So I take exception to his smart remarks when he has nothing to say re content in anything but trivial threads. He corrects spelling and grammar like a college professor but enlightens no one when it comes to exercise. If there is a troll then this smartass comes close. Right up there with Goatboy.

Can you imagine how disappointing it is to confront resident heroes who all believe empty platitudes about training? Most of what they say can be summed up by saying 'do what works for you'! What kind of advice is this? You are telling others that there are no effective methods. Just experiment and when something works do that. That is trial and error that thousands have already endured and now collectively we should know exactly what to do to make large muscles even larger. Unfortunately that is precisely what most here don't know. So they embrace sentiments and ideas that support their frustration instead of welcoming true theories that will generate unbelievably rapid results. The more many here read the more confused they get and the more they rely on ubiquitous bullshit excuses that explain nothing.

How a messenger bringing good news should be stoned is a mystery. Cast out those who think. It is better to remain ignorant as long as everyone is equally ignorant that you associate with. It is all drugs and genetics, anyway, so there is really no point in working out naturally and even sweating.

[Palpatine Q]

Listen, folks, and other Getbiggers, otherwise collectively best described as Flotsam. Dr Chimps has contributed zero knowledge to hypertrophy theory. We don't even know if he goes to a gym or does pushups in his bedroom. So I take exception to his smart remarks when he has nothing to say re content in anything but trivial threads. He corrects spelling and grammar like a college professor but enlightens no one when it comes to exercise. If there is a troll then this smartass comes close. Right up there with Goatboy.

Can you imagine how disappointing it is to confront resident heroes who all believe empty platitudes about training? Most of what they say can be summed up by saying 'do what works for you'! What kind of advice is this? You are telling others that there are no effective methods. Just experiment and when something works do that. That is trial and error that thousands have already endured and now collectively we should know exactly what to do to make large muscles even larger. Unfortunately that is precisely what most here don't know. So they embrace sentiments and ideas that support their frustration instead of welcoming true theories that will generate unbelievably rapid results. The more many here read the more confused they get and the more they rely on ubiquitous bullshit excuses that explain nothing.

How a messenger bringing good news should be stoned is a mystery. Cast out those who think. It is better to remain ignorant as long as everyone is equally ignorant that you associate with. It is all drugs and genetics, anyway, so there is really no point in working out naturally and even sweating.

So you are saying that there is a universal method that will work for ANYBODY and get them big ?


Sum it up in two sentences, just the basic principle

[TrueGrit]

Vince B is a big DOMS man.

I also think he secretly misses the slaughtered goat(boy)

[chaos]

So you are saying that there is a universal method that will work for ANYBODY and get them big ?


Sum it up in two sentences, just the basic principle

Lift weights.

Put them down.

[Palpatine Q]

Lift weights.

Put them down.

where is the Science in that ??


Oh that's right.....lifting weights isn't science....it's exercise.

[Master Blaster]

Can you imagine how disappointing it is to confront resident heroes who all believe empty platitudes about training? Most of what they say can be summed up by saying 'do what works for you'! What kind of advice is this? You are telling others that there are no effective methods. Just experiment and when something works do that. That is trial and error that thousands have already endured and now collectively we should know exactly what to do to make large muscles even larger.[/color]

Yes, Vince. Yes I can.


p.s.: OH YEAH, I TOOK OUT YOR NAVY BLUE, BITCH  

[Vince B]

Let me address the issue of relative knowledge of bodybuilding. Suppose a novice approaches you and asks for your help because he knows you have a lot of experience. Would you have any trouble directing him? If he insisted that you personally train him would you be lost about what to do? Of course not. We would all feel confident that we would be helping this person as well as any personal trainer could and maybe better.

The second scenario draws the line between having some experience and knowing exactly what we are talking about. An exercise scientist approaches you about an important experiment they want to do re muscular hypertrophy. They want you to help them out by disclosing the latest scientific theory about hypertrophy and the practical way the champions go about training. Who here would be confident that they have enough knowledge to relate to these scientists? How many know the language they use in the latest physiological research about muscles and processes? I imagine most of us would not at feel confident and thus would have to accept we are not authorities and perhaps not even experts in our field. No one would be dense enough to suggest that the main thing we learned was to listen to our bodies and do what works best for us!

[Master Blaster]

Let me address the issue of relative knowledge of bodybuilding. Suppose a novice approaches you and asks for your help because he knows you have a lot of experience. Would you have any trouble directing him? If he insisted that you personally train him would you be lost about what to do? Of course not. We would all feel confident that we would be helping this person as well as any personal trainer could and maybe better.

The second scenario draws the line between having some experience and knowing exactly what we are talking about. An exercise scientist approaches you about an important experiment they want to do re muscular hypertrophy. They want you to help them out by disclosing the latest scientific theory about hypertrophy and the practical way the champions go about training. Who here would be confident that they have enough knowledge to relate to these scientists? How many know the language they use in the latest physiological research about muscles and processes? I imagine most of us would not at feel confident and thus would have to accept we are not authorities and perhaps not even experts in our field. No one would be dense enough to suggest that the main thing we learned was to listen to our bodies and do what works best for us! 

Blue is GONE, bitch   

How does it feel when the blues on repeal? 

[Palpatine Q]

Let me address the issue of relative knowledge of bodybuilding. Suppose a novice approaches you and asks for your help because he knows you have a lot of experience. Would you have any trouble directing him? If he insisted that you personally train him would you be lost about what to do? Of course not. We would all feel confident that we would be helping this person as well as any personal trainer could and maybe better.

The second scenario draws the line between having some experience and knowing exactly what we are talking about. An exercise scientist approaches you about an important experiment they want to do re muscular hypertrophy. They want you to help them out by disclosing the latest scientific theory about hypertrophy and the practical way the champions go about training. Who here would be confident that they have enough knowledge to relate to these scientists? How many know the language they use in the latest physiological research about muscles and processes? I imagine most of us would not at feel confident and thus would have to accept we are not authorities and perhaps not even experts in our field. No one would be dense enough to suggest that the main thing we learned was to listen to our bodies and do what works best for us!

That's exactly what i would say.

I could dress it up and stretch it to three paragraphs...but that sums it up.

Like i said....after you have learned the basic tenets of resistance training, ie  What exercise does what, progressive overload, recuperation, negatives, sets, rep tempo, splitting up your body...etc, the rest will depend on your genetics.

There is no universal, surefire way to get big....but at the same time if you are training hard and eating right...almost every "method' will work if you have the genetics.....barring anything stupid of course

[Master Blaster]

[ *  content removed by moderator *  ]

[lovemonkey]

Basile is the living proof of that just because someone is old it doesn't mean they're necessarily wise, in fact, they're more likely to be senile.

[evandatp]

[Dr. Chimps] corrects spelling and grammar like a college professor but enlightens no one when it comes to exercise.

You fucking pompous hypocrite.

[Vince B]

That's exactly what i would say.

I could dress it up and stretch it to three paragraphs...but that sums it up.

Like i said....after you have learned the basic tenets of resistance training, ie  What exercise does what, progressive overload, recuperation, negatives, sets, rep tempo, splitting up your body...etc, the rest will depend on your genetics.

There is no universal, surefire way to get big....but at the same time if you are training hard and eating right...almost every "method' will work if you have the genetics.....barring anything stupid of course

Groink, shake your head hard and clear out the debris. You are typical of muscleheads who think they know things but are filled with the flotsam and jetsam of discussion board nonsense and collected jargon, false ideas and beliefs embraced by the dumbbell community. You will think you know what you are talking about and others will agree with you because they too are denser than cast iron. Hard to believe so many know so little about something that isn't rocket science.

[Vince B]

Xerxes, how is your hair going? Tablets and injections are not so good for a full head of hair. But what do I know?

Let me tell those who are intelligent a thing or two about discussion boards. First of all, there are few bodybuilders who actually have any original ideas. Some souls are witty and amusing but have no depth. Others are erudite and capable but have neither substance or knowledge that they can pass on to the hapless dumbbell community. Muscleheads are too lazy, both physically and intellectually, to discard false beliefs and embrace a new fitness world order. It isn't made up of gadgets and useless gimmicks that impress halfwits like Goodrum. Over the last 40 years there has been a proliferation of research in muscle physiology. Most here are not equipped to comprehend that difficult literature so require others to interpret that material. The sad thing is that unless one is an exercise scientist he will be unable to decipher much of the research. Where does that leave the hapless pumpkinheads who yearn to get big but fall by the wayside? You see, if you don't have the vocabulary you will not be able to recognize truth from pseudo-science. Do not look to your left or right because the others here and in gyms know almost nothing about hypertrophy. The multitudes believe so much rubbish that new knowledge has no currency nor can it establish a harbour in those sloppy minds. Students of hypertrophy are few and far between. They rely on research and vast experience. They test new ideas to see if there is merit. They are not armchair experts who dismiss anything that doesn't fit in with their shallow theories. The future is with ingenious machines. Sensible people use the modern equipment but primitive individuals still cling to there precious free weights. That is why the dumbbell community remains one of perpetual wannabes.

[wes]

Vinces posts confuse me and tell me nothing about how to progress in my training. 

Vince please go into more detail..........how about outlining a routine with more details please?

[pellius]

So you are saying that there is a universal method that will work for ANYBODY and get them big ?


Sum it up in two sentences, just the basic principle

Yes.

Though we are unique in our own way but as a living organism we are identical. Carbon base life form, heart, lungs, breath oxygen, process carbs, fats, proteins... It only differs in matters of degree and specificity. The general principles apply to everyone. They are universal. If you get a bacterial infection an antibiotic will kill the bacteria. What specific type of antibiotic, dose and frequency will vary and the response will also vary. I, for example, am allergic to Penicillin, one of the most common and effective antibiotics in use when I was a kid but potentially lethal for me. I had to use Tretracycline. But the same universal principle of using an antibiotic still applied to me. It was only the specifics that differed.

Steroids will have an anabolic effect on everyone, the degree of the effect will vary. Overloading a muscle will stimulate an adaptive response. The degree of that response will vary but the general principle of overload applies to everyone. Squats may be an ideal movement for some but a disaster for someone 6'10". But the same general principle of overloading the muscle using that plane of movement is necessary for quads.

If general principles regarding the human body didn't apply to everybody the field and science of medicine simply could not exist.

There does exists universal principles that optimizes muscle hypertrophy. What they are exactly I don't know. Science seems to have little interest in fully exploring this. It is not even conclusive what actually happens that stimulate a muscle to grow. This idea of micro tears causing an over adaptation has never been proven. Hell, I've had several muscle tears that went far beyond these micro tears with visible bruising and no small amount of pain. It did nothing to stimulate muscle growth.

[dj181]

I have a question Gronik, when you cut back on your training intensity and started growing again, did your training weights increase?

[Vince B]

Well thought and written, Pellius. Not everyone around here is a knucklehead.

You are correct about the paucity of research to answer the questions about hypertrophy. However, anyone who has been to university well knows the total bias most people there have against musclemen. I encountered that plenty of times during my time at various universities. Probably the last time a good mind in a good body was appreciated was ancient Greece about 2500 years ago. Plato argued that the mind was superior to the body and the religions adopted that value. What a pity. The vast majority of people value physical pleasures and not intellectual pursuits. If someone wins a big lottery do they quit their job and go to university? I doubt it. Most quit their jobs, take a holiday, buy a better house, car, jewelry, TV, computer and so on. That is what people value.

What I can't understand is why large muscles have a bad name. Fat is despised almost universally by both sexes. It is seen as a calamity. If fat is bad then muscle should be good, right? That isn't the way our culture works. Large muscles are not valued and just about everyone believes things about musclemen to discredit having large muscles. We are stupid, musclebound, gay, obsessed and selfish individuals.

All of this helps explain why universities do not do research on or for bodybuilders. To the academics we are mirror athletes and should not be either encouraged or valued.

I am still waiting for someone to obtain a PhD in human maximum hypertrophy. Why not? People study eating disorders, and all manner of different people but almost noone is studying bodybuilders. If we admit that drugs are a big part of professional bodybuilding then that is pretty much the nail in the coffin for all of us because no one will touch us with a 10 foot pole.

[dj181]

Hey X, from what I've read of Vince's posts on this thread, his arm training protocol would look like this: 5 or 6 sets of 10 to 15 reps for one good bicep movement, and one good tricep movement, with both exercises being trained once every 3 days.

[dj181]

I will admit that I'm tempted to give it a run, but... I'm rather convinced that it would quickly lead to a state of gross overtraining, and in fact the arm muscles would get smaller and weaker following this particular protocol. Of course I'm talking with regards to natural trainers.

[Marty Champions]

its all math

[225for70]

I found this article with some interesting info:


Training to Muscle failure
November 2nd, 2007 by Paul Johnson

Whether or not training a set to muscle failure is better (or even necessary) for muscle growth, is a age old debate in bodybuilding. Muscular failure means doing reps in a set, until you can no longer lift the weight with proper form through the full range of motion.

Why is this last rep so important to discuss?

It may only seem like just another rep that happens to be the last in a set, but bodybuilders and scientist have viewed the last rep to failure as distinctly different from the other reps. Bodybuilders see it as giving it “your all” and fatiguing the muscle completely. Some high intensity workout programs, believe that you must go to failure for maximum muscle and strength gains.

Training to failure research studies:

To see why scientist see this rep differently, let’s look at some research.

A study published (J Appl Physiol. 2006 May;100(5):1647-56. Epub 2006 Jan 12.) did a 11 week resistance training program of failure vs nonfailure groups. Immediately after the 11th week all groups did the same workout, to see the effects each previous training led. Both groups had similiar increases in one rep max. During the 2nd phase of the study, there was an increase in muscular endurance in the failure group and power in the nonfailure group. The failure group had lower IGF-1 levels (important anabolic hormone for muscle growth), while the nonfailure group had lower resting levels of cortisol and higher testosterone levels.

A study published in (J Strength Cond Res. 2005 May;19(2):382-8) compared failure to nonfailure in 26 basketball players. The failure group did 4 sets of 6 repetitions every 260 seconds, whereas the nonfailure 8 sets of 3 repetitions every 113. Results showed that the failure group had significant strength increases over the non-failure group. One problem I have with this study is, time under tension differences between the sets. The failure group is doing 6 reps in a set instead of 3 reps. Even though the weight is the same and the time is lessened to increase intensity, 3 reps per set is not going to be the same stimulus.

A few months ago JM Willardson, who has published some important studies in excercise science, wrote a research note recently in (J Strength Cond Res. 2007 May;21(2):628-31.) He acknowledged that there isn’t enough conclusive evidence yet, whether sets should be done to failure or not. However, willardson recommended advanced lifters use training failure to break past plateaus, due to increased activation of motor units and the hormonal response. He also didn’t recommend it long term due to overtraining and risk of injury.

http://www.bodybuildingweb.net/blog/training-to-muscle-failure/

All this and they say nothing about increases in muscle mas...