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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Positive Bodybuilding Discussion & Talk => Topic started by: Disgusted on December 21, 2008, 09:37:59 PM
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I posted this a will back as an answer to a question I was asked on another board and thought some of you may be interested in seeing it.
I will try and answer your question in a more general way and just give you some of my opinions as far as supps go. When I mentioned that there are a lot of things that are being used that don't really contribute to one's physique I was reffering more the ancillary drugs more than steroids. I fear that most of you will be some what disappointed about what I have to say. There are no real secrets to getting big. If there is I would say it's more about what you don't do than do.
IMO steroids are king in building muscle and most likely always will be. Take GH for example. I've known guys over 40 that take it and get pretty decent results as far as a rejuvination drug. A couple of IU's a day is all you need when your older to get good results. Most bodybuilders (younger) will take anywhere from 4 to 9 iu's daily. Most guys expect to make huge gains from taking GH. I've never really known anyone to gain any appreciable amount of muscle from GH alone. Everyone says to take it with gear but how do you know that it's the GH that is working? As far as I'm concerned anything that you take by itself and doesn't work, isn't going to work by adding something to it. Most guys get nothing more from GH than a bit of water retention. If that's what you want then go eat some bacon. It's a hell of a lot cheaper and more fun.
Same for IGF. I did get some fat loss from IGF but I did not gain anything in the way of muscle. It's popular to use IGF, clomid and or HCG to bridge after a cycle and to keep the gains that you have made. 30 days is the norm. So many guys tell me that they lose only a couple of pounds by doing this and their strength is maintained pretty well. Most guys are walking around with a test/epitest ratio of 20:1 or even more. How much do you really think your levels are goint to drop in 30 days? I can tell you by actual blood test results not much at all if any. I friend of mine (who reads this board, hey bro) was remarking to me how surprised he was to have maintained a lot of his mass (not all) over the last 4 months that he has been off. This doesn't surprise me as the body can and will hold on to muscle longer than you think. But if he was taking IGF for example I'm willing to bet he would be praising the effects of the IGF right now and how great it is for maintining mass. Get my drift?
Some guys bridge with anavar or something similar. Waste if time, period. How can anyone think that you are going to maintain gains that you have made from taking 2 grams a week by using 40mgs of anavar a day??? Your either on or off. Your either growing or your not. Things are different today than years ago. Take Arnold for example. He competed once a year and in the off season he got off the drugs and got small. Most guys today don't even compete and want to be big all year round. Nothing wrong with that, but lets face it, when you come off drugs you get smaller. This after all is proof that steroids work in the first place.
Over the years I have witnessed many different steroids cycles from the very complicated to the most basic. People tend to forget that steroids were not invented for bodybuilders. You don't need to lift weights to grow muscle from taking them. Don't get me wrong, it sure helps. In fact it's a must to get huge, but my point is that they are very powerful muscle enhancing drugs. I think that people don''t give them enough credit. They somehow feel if they give them credit then they look like cheaters. Not true, a lot of hard work goes into building a big body, but at the same time they are the guys who take a few d-bol a a shot of deca a week and grow like a weed and to top it off they don't even lift that hard. I'm sure we all know someone out there like that. Well lifes not fair, get used to it. We all have out strong points, some more than others.
IMO test is the best steroid to use for growth. Technically it's not an anabolic steroid, but a male sex hormone. AS were invented to mimic the results of test and minimize the side effects or the secondary sex charactaristics. The problem is that the anabolic and androgenic effects work hand in hand. People tend to feel pretty good on test and get great gains. This is no coincidence. Our bodies already produces it and it knows how to accept it better than any other steroid.
IMO test should be the foundation of a cycle. Throw in another injectable maybe and an oral. NO, orals are not that dangerous. Another misconception. Not to contradict myself, but I know guys who loves deca and d-bol and hardly ever use test. They gets great results and yep, they still able to do the nasty. Another misconception. I'm sure this is not true for everyone.
Test,(any kind) deca, Eq (not as much) d-bol , A-50's ect. These drugs have built most of the mass you see on stage today. I guess I should give honerable mention to trenbolone. This is a weird drug. Very powerful. The late Dan Ducahine once said that no one should ever use it unless they were a serious competitor. I agree. I'd say about 500mg is about a powerful as a gram of test. I think it's too hard on the body in many ways, escpecially if your older. I've known a few guys to complain about an enlarged prostate from it. Even younger guys. Throw it in the last few weeks before a show and that's it.
Getting big is not rocket science. Forget about all these fancy cycles and different ways to take stuff. It's impotant to keep an eye on your BP and take an anti-estrogen only if needed. Stick to the basics and you will grow. I realize that this only touchs upon the subject at hand and a lot more can be said. Hopefully I have not offended anyone here. These are just my opinions and I realize not everyone (maybe no one ) will agree. Even when I disagree with someonew I still respect their opinion. Peace
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Great post Jim !
a couple of months ago, I didn't agree with that.
but as the time goes by, trying a few drugs here and there, I agree with everything you said.
also, no one should every underestimate genetics, in term of reacting to the drugs.
I have used some pretty decent dosages and I am still pretty "non-muscular" as far as bodybuilding goes.
A friend of mine gained more muscle in 3 months from taking 50 mgs of d-bol a day than I did in a year using various steroids.
to get big, it's either you have it or you don't.
taking myself for example, I don't think I'll ever see the day when I am 220 lbs onstage (at 5'10)
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wow great post jim.
u make things so simple and ez to understand.
definetey a diamond in the rough bodybuilding scene.
Thanx Jim
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Thanks for your insight, Jim. It's one thing to spend countless hours reading and researching about this stuff, but it's equally valuable to hear anecdotal feedback from someone who's had his head in the game and steered tons of people in the right direction!! Glad that you always decide to share these tidbits of knowledge with us!!! 8)
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Jim, when I first seen the "Disgusted Q&A" I didn't think much about it, and to tell you the truth I have never even opened the thread.
But after reading this short piece by you I am quickly becoming a fan of your work, and look forward to more posts by you, and I shall start reading your thread as well.
Quality post, look forward for more to come.
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he cool post jim, nice read. thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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that's silly.. you could hit 220 onstage no problem. but even with steroids it takes *years* for a lot of people to build up.
I mean years of non stop use.. you will continue to gain.. slowly but surely.. just stay on. you will get larger if you eat enough.
if you want the size all of this *cycling* is a waste of time.
maybe... but I prefer "cycling" for my health :)
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maybe... but I prefer "cycling" for my health :)
you are doing the right thing , you will get there if you don't quit and your career will be longer,and those like darrem,dex and even jay take breaks, cause you don't start using nonstop at 17 till 35,39 withou burning out,i believe taking breaks will make u healthier and better in the long run.at least that's what i believe
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now you've lost me... do you think its healthier to throw your body onto a constant hormonal roller coaster by jumping on and off as opposed to a constant, steady environment (staying on)?
why do you think that's better for your health?
health is something that can be monitored.. so unless you're doing insane dosages I don't see why you're bringing up health.
Reminds me of when an acquaintance of mine consulted with some doc who worked with some pros (I think Munzer was one of them). He said the doc told him that the worst thing he could do, healthwise, was to come off completely. :D
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Reminds me of when an acquaintance of mine consulted with some doc who worked with some pros (I think Munzer was one of them). He said the doc told him that the worst thing he could do, healthwise, was to come off completely. :D
Ive said this before , but my endo says exactly the same thing.
:)
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now you've lost me... do you think its healthier to throw your body onto a constant hormonal roller coaster by jumping on and off as opposed to a constant, steady environment (staying on)?
why do you think that's better for your health?
health is something that can be monitored.. so unless you're doing insane dosages I don't see why you're bringing up health.
you are right, that's another way to see it James.
I just tought it was better to give the liver a break once in a while .
so what do you guys do ? you cruise with small doses between high doses ?
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bump
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There is no such thing as bridging, you are either on or off. Take some clomid if you are going to be off for an extended period of time.
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There is no such thing as bridging, you are either on or off. Take some clomid if you are going to be off for an extended period of time.
yeah that's what I did.
I am off since august.
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There is no such thing as bridging, you are either on or off. Take some clomid if you are going to be off for an extended period of time.
So disgusted ,as far as u know does some pros or good national competitors take breaks during the year?if so how long are those breaks?
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So disgusted ,as far as u know does some pros or good national competitors take breaks during the year?if so how long are those breaks?
King has been on a break for over three months, just for an example and yes there are some that do but many more that never do.
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disgusted what do you think is the optimal dose of testosterone? more= better?
whats the craziezst stack of hormones youve ever heard of ?
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the cold hard facts are that until you reach your optimal size, taking extended breaks is lke taking two steps forward and two steps back.. and if one is over 35 years of age it is negative to come completely off.. the natural test of one over the age of 35 is low enough to not add much muscle.. it is best to cruise at that age.. king can get away with it being the size he is right now but, i still believe that he should be on hrt dosage to keep hormones high enough to atleast make it productive..
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the cold hard facts are that until you reach your optimal size, taking extended breaks is lke taking two steps forward and two steps back.. and if one is over 35 years of age it is negative to come completely off.. the natural test of one over the age of 35 is low enough to not add much muscle.. it is best to cruise at that age.. king can get away with it being the size he is right now but, i still believe that he should be on hrt dosage to keep hormones high enough to atleast make it productive..
on clomid and hcg..his test is gonna b higher than an 18 yo natty..
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disgusted what do you think is the optimal dose of testosterone? more= better?
whats the craziezst stack of hormones youve ever heard of ?
Depends on what you mean by optimal. The craziest dose of test that I have ever heard of was 10 grams per week. Lots of sides and water retention. Very quick weight gain, but the guy did not end up looking like Ronnie Coleman either.
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the cold hard facts are that until you reach your optimal size, taking extended breaks is lke taking two steps forward and two steps back.. and if one is over 35 years of age it is negative to come completely off.. the natural test of one over the age of 35 is low enough to not add much muscle.. it is best to cruise at that age.. king can get away with it being the size he is right now but, i still believe that he should be on hrt dosage to keep hormones high enough to atleast make it productive..
I agree with the first part of your post but I am not sure if I understand what you mean by the second part. I mean the part about being on HRT and it being productive.
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What do you think about the 70/30 anabolic to androgenic ratio you read about?
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DG, what's your take on the rampant absesses from non HG gears? User caused?
Makes want to stay clean for the rest of my flesh life..
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=252175.0;attach=293208)
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DG, what's your tale on the rampant absesses from non HG gears? User caused?
Makes want to stay clean for the rest of my flesh life..
Actually they are quite rare. Out of the hundreds of guys that I see per year I have only seen one bad one ever. Also, just because an area swells up and gets red doesn't mean that it is an abscess.. A lot of UG drugs have a high level of BA and BB in them and they can be quite irritating to the skin. That on top of the high test mg per ml which is stupid, will cause that also.
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What do you think about the 70/30 anabolic to androgenic ratio you read about?
I think that it is spot on IF that is the route that you want to take to bigger muscles. I think overall by using this ratio to force muscle growth you will end up with a better look in the long run, but remember that you will have to increase your dose as you get bigger.
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I think it can be a good idea for a competitor to go off completely every once in a while. Especially if the cycles are heavy. It's hard to say when you should do this but those who stay on for years and years often end up with a tired, mushy, chemical look. Sometimes a layer of water that they didn't have before. The "Paluboism" effect ties into this also. This can't be pinned down on just "receptor downgrade" or whatever.
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What do you think about the 70/30 anabolic to androgenic ratio you read about?
Which steroids go into which group?
Reason I ask is because I think drugs commonly thought of as strong androgens, such as Anadrol, are pretty weak in their androgenic effects. IMO and IME.
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Hi disgusted!
Great post and it truley did deserve its own thread.
My question with the 70/30, anabolic to androgenic ratio, would this be the same if someone were to use tren and test together?
Now i know you are agianst the use of trenbolone unless you are taking competition quite seriously, but i guess this is just a hypothetical.
I ask this of the tren compound as im not too sure if it would fit into the 70/30 anabolic to androgenic ratio as it is androgenic also.
Could it replace the anabolic ratio of 70?
Or it wont work because they are both androgenic?
Not sure if i have explained this right, but thanks for giving it a go anyway.
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Actually they are quite rare. Out of the hundreds of guys that I see per year I have only seen one bad one ever. Also, just because an area swells up and gets red doesn't mean that it is an abscess.. A lot of UG drugs have a high level of BA and BB in them and they can be quite irritating to the skin. That on top of the high test mg per ml which is stupid, will cause that also.
I thought so... never heard of anyone having to "drain" anything that I know of. I would say behavior is more likely to cause it than actual tainted products. I've heard of powder kitchen cookers going at it for years and not even get sore after running short esters for months at a time...
Also seems like water is more prone than oils.
Why is the benzyl benzoate / benzyl alcohol content so high in UG? Could it cause health issues in the long run? I've heard they can cause kidney "duress" which is what I attributed tren acetate (made from finaplix) mainly to....
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Hi disgusted!
Great post and it truley did deserve its own thread.
My question with the 70/30, anabolic to androgenic ratio, would this be the same if someone were to use tren and test together?
Now i know you are agianst the use of trenbolone unless you are taking competition quite seriously, but i guess this is just a hypothetical.
I ask this of the tren compound as im not too sure if it would fit into the 70/30 anabolic to androgenic ratio as it is androgenic also.
Could it replace the anabolic ratio of 70?
Or it wont work because they are both androgenic?
Not sure if i have explained this right, but thanks for giving it a go anyway.
It's a good question because I don't know how one would device a "70/30" stack. Most probably mean something like 700mg Primo and 300mg Test. But replace the test with 300mg Tren and it's not the same. Or replace the Primo with Winstrol and it's not quite the same either - as far as androgenic or anabolic effects.
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It's a good question because I don't know how one would device a "70/30" stack. Most probably mean something like 700mg Primo and 300mg Test. But replace the test with 300mg Tren and it's not the same. Or replace the Primo with Winstrol and it's not quite the same either - as far as androgenic or anabolic effects.
Sort of what i am asking, yeah.
Would the effects be the same with an androgenic like tren at a ratio of 70 and a testosterone at a ratio of 30 or does it HAVE TO be an anabolic to androgenic ratio?
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If you are around the 70/30 ratio and want to use tren then there is really no reason to worry about it. Just throw in the tren come precontest or offseason time. Tren is it's own odd little drug.
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Thanks for the reply, i was thinking it would be a better way to set your cycle and not have all the estrogen side effects such as bloat and having to eat anti-e's for the length of your cycle. I was thinking along these lines when you said increase the dose as you grow bigger with each cycle;
1g total = 300mg test + 700mg anabolic; deca or eq or primo
1.25g total = 375mg test + 875mg anablics split between deca and eq or eq and primo or deca and primo
1.5g total = 450mg test + 1050mg anabolics split same as above
1.75g total = 525mg test + 1225mg anabolics split same as..
2g total = 600mg test + 1400mg anabolics split..
etc..
How does this set up look?
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disgusted,in your opinion what do u recommend me to do,i just turned 22 and i want to go all the way since 17,i took gear 5 weeks at 18(to know what it is for the future,it was an 8 week cycle but i saw good results and stopped ),and from 18 to 22 i have been "natural"(cos i don't think i am natural cause i took juice 5 weeks),now i think i have a solid foundation and i am ready to start with the gear. so my question is if u think that i should cycle here ,rest,cycle rest..../ or keep on the juice without taking time off(wich imo i don't think is the right way,maybe i am wrong). btw if i have to rest between cycles how long should be that time off in between evry cycle ??
thanks
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Thanks for the reply, i was thinking it would be a better way to set your cycle and not have all the estrogen side effects such as bloat and having to eat anti-e's for the length of your cycle. I was thinking along these lines when you said increase the dose as you grow bigger with each cycle;
1g total = 300mg test + 700mg anabolic; deca or eq or primo
1.25g total = 375mg test + 875mg anablics split between deca and eq or eq and primo or deca and primo
1.5g total = 450mg test + 1050mg anabolics split same as above
1.75g total = 525mg test + 1225mg anabolics split same as..
2g total = 600mg test + 1400mg anabolics split..
etc..
How does this set up look?
That set up looks good although you do not have to increase your test proportionately with the anabolics, not saying that it;s wrong just another way of doing it.
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disgusted,in your opinion what do u recommend me to do,i just turned 22 and i want to go all the way since 17,i took gear 5 weeks at 18(to know what it is for the future,it was an 8 week cycle but i saw good results and stopped ),and from 18 to 22 i have been "natural"(cos i don't think i am natural cause i took juice 5 weeks),now i think i have a solid foundation and i am ready to start with the gear. so my question is if u think that i should cycle here ,rest,cycle rest..../ or keep on the juice without taking time off(wich imo i don't think is the right way,maybe i am wrong). btw if i have to rest between cycles how long should be that time off in between evry cycle ??
thanks
Sorry, but I can not give you advice on whether you should take steroids or not. I can tell you that there is no right or wrong way of doing things. If it were me I would cycle 8 weeks on and take maybe 3 to 4 weeks off. Another thing that you gotta ask yourself is what are your goals? Do you compete? Do you think that you have the genetics to possibly turn pro or do very well a the amateur level? I know guys who do it both ways but in the long term all of them take breaks and rest for a while. Hope this helps.
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It's amusing that you guys are taking advice of what to put into a syringe from guys that live in a room at their parents house and deliver pizza for a living.
Has any of these guys had 15 credits of chemistry courses much less a PHD in pharmacology? This is why this sport will never get any respect. It's a sport based on drug use. No drugs equals no sport. Let me tell you when the public sees a juiced bodybuilder they laugh. Only insecure young men who praise these guys and other ignorant people give them the ego they walk around with.
Train without drugs and have a decent build much of your life. A drug user only looks good on drugs. Off drugs they look like crap. Where in sport does anyone resemble the drug bloat these guys walk around with? It's all cosmetic. I would rather be built like a running back, sprinter, olympic wrestler or olympic weightlifter before a drug experiment.
Most drug users are only to happy to give out training advice but deep down inside they know if they were off drugs for 6 months they wouldn't dare open their mouth because their body would revert to garbage.
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It's amusing that you guys are taking advice of what to put into a syringe from guys that live in a room at their parents house and deliver pizza for a living.
Has any of these guys had 15 credits of chemistry courses much less a PHD in pharmacology? This is why this sport will never get any respect. It's a sport based on drug use. No drugs equals no sport. Let me tell you when the public sees a juiced bodybuilder they laugh. Only insecure young men who praise these guys and other ignorant people give them the ego they walk around with.
Train without drugs and have a decent build much of your life. A drug user only looks good on drugs. Off drugs they look like crap. Where in sport does anyone resemble the drug bloat these guys walk around with? It's all cosmetic. I would rather be built like a running back, sprinter, olympic wrestler or olympic weightlifter before a drug experiment.
Most drug users are only to happy to give out training advice but deep down inside they know if they were off drugs for 6 months they wouldn't dare open their mouth because their body would revert to garbage.
Disgusted is a well known nutritionist, not some random dude.
About going OFF, I agree with that but who cares. If we wanted to be sprinters, we would be. but right now our goal is to be a good bodybuilder so to each his own
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Oldguy makes a couple of decent points, but I will respond in length when I get back from Starbucks. :(
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It's amusing that you guys are taking advice of what to put into a syringe from guys that live in a room at their parents house and deliver pizza for a living.
Has any of these guys had 15 credits of chemistry courses much less a PHD in pharmacology? This is why this sport will never get any respect. It's a sport based on drug use. No drugs equals no sport. Let me tell you when the public sees a juiced bodybuilder they laugh. Only insecure young men who praise these guys and other ignorant people give them the ego they walk around with.
Train without drugs and have a decent build much of your life. A drug user only looks good on drugs. Off drugs they look like crap. Where in sport does anyone resemble the drug bloat these guys walk around with? It's all cosmetic. I would rather be built like a running back, sprinter, olympic wrestler or olympic weightlifter before a drug experiment.
Most drug users are only to happy to give out training advice but deep down inside they know if they were off drugs for 6 months they wouldn't dare open their mouth because their body would revert to garbage.
you eat food everyday do you have a degree in nutrition ? :D
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It's amusing that you guys are taking advice of what to put into a syringe from guys that live in a room at their parents house and deliver pizza for a living.
Has any of these guys had 15 credits of chemistry courses much less a PHD in pharmacology? This is why this sport will never get any respect. I didn't start lifting weights to get respect. That is usually earned by how you treat other people. It's a sport based on drug use. No drugs equals no sport. As well as most sports Let me tell you when the public sees a juiced bodybuilder they laugh. Actually they find them disgusting. Just because they are not used to seeing guys like Ronnie doesn't mean that they would think Frank Zane was any less disgusting. Only insecure young men who praise these guys and other ignorant people give them the ego they walk around with. That's just your opinion
Train without drugs and have a decent build much of your life. A drug user only looks good on drugs. Off drugs they look like crap. I know a lot of guys who came off drugs and still look great. All has to do with diet and training Where in sport does anyone resemble the drug bloat these guys walk around with? It's all cosmetic. It's all cosmetic drugs or no drugs I would rather be built like a running back, sprinter, olympic wrestler or olympic weightlifter before a drug experiment. Good for you.
Most drug users are only to happy to give out training advice but deep down inside they know if they were off drugs for 6 months they wouldn't dare open their mouth because their body would revert to garbage. Just another opinion, but this time you sound angry. Maybe you have too much natural test. ;D
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very good points Jim.
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It's amusing that you guys are taking advice of what to put into a syringe from guys that live in a room at their parents house and deliver pizza for a living.
Has any of these guys had 15 credits of chemistry courses much less a PHD in pharmacology? This is why this sport will never get any respect. It's a sport based on drug use. No drugs equals no sport. Let me tell you when the public sees a juiced bodybuilder they laugh. Only insecure young men who praise these guys and other ignorant people give them the ego they walk around with.
Train without drugs and have a decent build much of your life. A drug user only looks good on drugs. Off drugs they look like crap. Where in sport does anyone resemble the drug bloat these guys walk around with? It's all cosmetic. I would rather be built like a running back, sprinter, olympic wrestler or olympic weightlifter before a drug experiment.
Most drug users are only to happy to give out training advice but deep down inside they know if they were off drugs for 6 months they wouldn't dare open their mouth because their body would revert to garbage.
oldtimer1,
When did you start training, what were your motivations, who was your role model/idol/bber of the day or past you looked up to?
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Sorry to bump an old thread, but what i want to ask doesn't really need a thread of it's own seeing as it has got to do with the conversation in here.
I was just wondering what exactly was Disgusted's theory behind having a 70% Anabolic ratio to a 30% androgen while cycling?
Has he explained in depth the theory behind it?