Author Topic: Iraq, $5000 Per Second?  (Read 1232 times)

Benny B

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Iraq, $5000 Per Second?
« on: March 23, 2008, 06:26:40 AM »
March 23, 2008

Iraq, $5,000 Per Second?
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

The Iraq war is now going better than expected, for a change. Most critics of the war, myself included, blew it: we didn’t anticipate the improvements in security that are partly the result of last year’s “surge.”

The improvement is real but fragile and limited. Here’s what it amounts to: We’ve cut our casualty rates to the unacceptable levels that plagued us back in 2005, and we still don’t have any exit plan for years to come — all for a bill that is accumulating at the rate of almost $5,000 every second!

More important, while casualties in Baghdad are down, we’re beginning to take losses in Florida and California. The United States seems to have slipped into recession; Americans are losing their homes, jobs and health insurance; banks are struggling — and the Iraq war appears to have aggravated all these domestic woes.

“The present economic mess is very much related to the Iraq war,” says Joseph Stiglitz, the Nobel Prize-winning economist. “It was at least partially responsible for soaring oil prices. ...Moreover, money spent on Iraq did not stimulate the economy as much as the same dollars spent at home would have done. To cover up these weaknesses in the American economy, the Fed let forth a flood of liquidity; that, together with lax regulations, led to a housing bubble and a consumption boom.”

Not everyone agrees that the connection between Iraq and our economic hardships is so strong. Robert Hormats, vice chairman of Goldman Sachs International and author of a book on how America pays for wars, argues that the Iraq war is a negative for the economy but still only a minor factor in the present crisis.

“Is it a significant cause of the present downturn?” Mr. Hormats asked. “I’d say no, but could the money have been better utilized to strengthen our economy? The answer is yes.”

For all the disagreement, there appears to be at least a modest connection between spending in Iraq and the economic difficulties at home. So as we debate whether to bring our troops home, one central question should be whether Iraq is really the best place to invest $411 million every day in present spending alone.

I’ve argued that staying in Iraq indefinitely undermines our national security by empowering jihadis — just as we now know that our military presence in Saudi Arabia in the 1990s was, in fact, counterproductive by empowering Al Qaeda in its early days. On the other hand, supporters of the war argue that a withdrawal from Iraq would signal weakness and leave a vacuum that extremists would fill, and those are legitimate concerns.

But if you believe that staying in Iraq does more good than harm, you must answer the next question: Is that presence so valuable that it is worth undermining our economy?

Granted, the cost estimates are squishy and controversial, partly because the $12.5 billion a month that we’re now paying for Iraq is only a down payment. We’ll still be making disability payments to Iraq war veterans 50 years from now.

Professor Stiglitz calculates in a new book, written with Linda Bilmes of Harvard University, that the total costs, including the long-term bills we’re incurring, amount to about $25 billion a month. That’s $330 a month for a family of four.

A Congressional study by the Joint Economic Committee found that the sums spent on the Iraq war each day could enroll an additional 58,000 children in Head Start or give Pell Grants to 153,000 students to attend college. Or if we’re sure we want to invest in security, then a day’s Iraq spending would finance another 11,000 border patrol agents or 9,000 police officers.

Imagine the possibilities. We could hire more police and border patrol agents, expand Head Start and rehabilitate America’s image in the world by underwriting a global drive to slash maternal mortality, eradicate malaria and deworm every child in Africa.

All that would consume less than one month’s spending on the Iraq war.

Moreover, the Bush administration has financed this war in a way that undermines our national security — by borrowing. Forty percent of the increased debt will be held by China and other foreign countries.

“This is the first major war in American history where all the additional cost was paid for by borrowing,” Mr. Hormats notes. If the war backers believe that the Iraq war is so essential, then they should be willing to pay for it partly with taxes rather than charging it.

One way or another, now or later, we’ll have to pay the bill. Professor Stiglitz calculates that the eventual total cost of the war will be about $3 trillion. For a family of five like mine, that amounts to a bill of almost $50,000.

I don’t feel that I’m getting my money’s worth.
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Bindare_Dundat

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Re: Iraq, $5000 Per Second?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2008, 02:53:17 PM »
I wonder how much continuing a war in Afghanistan or starting one in Pakistan would cost? Hopefully someone will ask Obama.

Benny B

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Re: Iraq, $5000 Per Second?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2008, 06:59:39 PM »
I wonder how much continuing a war in Afghanistan or starting one in Pakistan would cost? Hopefully someone will ask Obama.
Not as much as Iraq, and whatever the cost in Afghanistan would be worth it to avenge those who set the plans in motion for the murder of 3,000+ Americans on September 11, 2001.

There are no plans to go to war with Pakistan under an Obama administration.  ::)
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Bindare_Dundat

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Re: Iraq, $5000 Per Second?
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2008, 01:32:36 AM »
Not as much as Iraq, and whatever the cost in Afghanistan would be worth it to avenge those who set the plans in motion for the murder of 3,000+ Americans on September 11, 2001.



Man, you're just as brainwashed as HH6.

headhuntersix

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Re: Iraq, $5000 Per Second?
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2008, 06:50:50 AM »
Gimme a break...what plans...Obama the idiot said that he "reserved the right"..not that he would invade. The statement, while stupid, was meaningless. He ment Waziristan anyway..not dropping troops into downtown Islamabad. U need to get way past the brainwashing...or maybe the lib/defeatist brainwashing has worked too well on u.
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shootfighter1

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Re: Iraq, $5000 Per Second?
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2008, 07:01:28 AM »
The iraqi war has gone horribly, I can't imagine anyone able to defend the action anymore.

If we leave completely and quickly, there may be increased bloodshed of both extremist and innocent Iraqi people.  The liberals should be compassionate to this.  There will likely be a shiite vs suni war.  As of now, our troop presence gives the Iraqi government the support it needs to avoid a civil war and gov collapse, which is preventing extremist  control.  If we leave too quickly, tens of thousands might die.  Thats why this is such a difficult decision.  It would be popular to say, lets pull em all out by end of the year, but many experts predict destabilization, a civil war and a certain new breeding ground for terror.  Also, I believe the Iraqi government has an incredible amount of $ from oil sales which could fall into the hands of terrorist organizations if the government destabilizes.

I am all for getting our troops out ASAP and stop wasting our $ that would be better spent at home...but its more complicated than most people imagine.  Going to war was a huge mistake!  We must replace military troops with support and diplomacy, but must do it cautiously.  Is it too late to involve the UN?

headhuntersix

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Re: Iraq, $5000 Per Second?
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2008, 07:12:20 AM »
It really doesn't matter what u or I think of the war..we're there and we must end it with a win. It can be a UN win or a US win..or some combination of the two..but it has to end with a stable Iraq. How do u want the UN to get involved...if u mean with diplomacy, they are and should do more..no problem...if u mean with troops. They are an inept organization when it comes to military operations....so they're fine doing nothing.
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Re: Iraq, $5000 Per Second?
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2008, 07:18:28 AM »
The iraqi war has gone horribly,

Depends who you are. 

If you're an oil executive, has the war gone horribly?

The Coach

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Re: Iraq, $5000 Per Second?
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2008, 08:54:54 AM »
Depends who you are. 

If you're an oil executive, has the war gone horribly?

 ::)

The Coach

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Re: Iraq, $5000 Per Second?
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2008, 08:56:51 AM »
March 23, 2008

Iraq, $5,000 Per Second?
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

The Iraq war is now going better than expected, for a change. Most critics of the war, myself included, blew it: we didn’t anticipate the improvements in security that are partly the result of last year’s “surge.”

The improvement is real but fragile and limited. Here’s what it amounts to: We’ve cut our casualty rates to the unacceptable levels that plagued us back in 2005, and we still don’t have any exit plan for years to come — all for a bill that is accumulating at the rate of almost $5,000 every second!

More important, while casualties in Baghdad are down, we’re beginning to take losses in Florida and California. The United States seems to have slipped into recession; Americans are losing their homes, jobs and health insurance; banks are struggling — and the Iraq war appears to have aggravated all these domestic woes.

“The present economic mess is very much related to the Iraq war,” says Joseph Stiglitz, the Nobel Prize-winning economist. “It was at least partially responsible for soaring oil prices. ...Moreover, money spent on Iraq did not stimulate the economy as much as the same dollars spent at home would have done. To cover up these weaknesses in the American economy, the Fed let forth a flood of liquidity; that, together with lax regulations, led to a housing bubble and a consumption boom.”

Not everyone agrees that the connection between Iraq and our economic hardships is so strong. Robert Hormats, vice chairman of Goldman Sachs International and author of a book on how America pays for wars, argues that the Iraq war is a negative for the economy but still only a minor factor in the present crisis.

“Is it a significant cause of the present downturn?” Mr. Hormats asked. “I’d say no, but could the money have been better utilized to strengthen our economy? The answer is yes.”

For all the disagreement, there appears to be at least a modest connection between spending in Iraq and the economic difficulties at home. So as we debate whether to bring our troops home, one central question should be whether Iraq is really the best place to invest $411 million every day in present spending alone.

I’ve argued that staying in Iraq indefinitely undermines our national security by empowering jihadis — just as we now know that our military presence in Saudi Arabia in the 1990s was, in fact, counterproductive by empowering Al Qaeda in its early days. On the other hand, supporters of the war argue that a withdrawal from Iraq would signal weakness and leave a vacuum that extremists would fill, and those are legitimate concerns.

But if you believe that staying in Iraq does more good than harm, you must answer the next question: Is that presence so valuable that it is worth undermining our economy?

Granted, the cost estimates are squishy and controversial, partly because the $12.5 billion a month that we’re now paying for Iraq is only a down payment. We’ll still be making disability payments to Iraq war veterans 50 years from now.

Professor Stiglitz calculates in a new book, written with Linda Bilmes of Harvard University, that the total costs, including the long-term bills we’re incurring, amount to about $25 billion a month. That’s $330 a month for a family of four.

A Congressional study by the Joint Economic Committee found that the sums spent on the Iraq war each day could enroll an additional 58,000 children in Head Start or give Pell Grants to 153,000 students to attend college. Or if we’re sure we want to invest in security, then a day’s Iraq spending would finance another 11,000 border patrol agents or 9,000 police officers.

Imagine the possibilities. We could hire more police and border patrol agents, expand Head Start and rehabilitate America’s image in the world by underwriting a global drive to slash maternal mortality, eradicate malaria and deworm every child in Africa.

All that would consume less than one month’s spending on the Iraq war.

Moreover, the Bush administration has financed this war in a way that undermines our national security — by borrowing. Forty percent of the increased debt will be held by China and other foreign countries.

“This is the first major war in American history where all the additional cost was paid for by borrowing,” Mr. Hormats notes. If the war backers believe that the Iraq war is so essential, then they should be willing to pay for it partly with taxes rather than charging it.

One way or another, now or later, we’ll have to pay the bill. Professor Stiglitz calculates that the eventual total cost of the war will be about $3 trillion. For a family of five like mine, that amounts to a bill of almost $50,000.

I don’t feel that I’m getting my money’s worth.


Lemme put this in a little prospective for you:


http://www.ddaymuseum.org/education/education_numbers.html

That $288bil would translate into about $2 trillion today.

War-Horse

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Re: Iraq, $5000 Per Second?
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2008, 09:09:45 AM »
The war will not end by the US or UN.  The plan by the UN is to collapse the US economy and infrastructure to bring CHINA in as the reigning SUPERPOWER.  This why china is manipulating the currency market along with the US Fed Treasury and bernanke to collapse our wages.

There is no reason reason why the Fed became a motgage company recently.  They scream no bail outs while they do massive bail outs, under the guise of no bail outs.....

Cameras in DVR's and mandatory ID cards...under the guise of protection.... ::)

240 is Back

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Re: Iraq, $5000 Per Second?
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2008, 10:21:40 AM »
::)


why would you roll your eyes at that, joe?

If you're an oil executive, you've seen your yearly income triple or quadruple in the last 7 years.  Record profits, and you just got handed contracts for exploration rights to iraqi oil fields, as Cheney assigned before 911 in meetings which you can now read about on WIKi for pete's sake.

Joe, why roll your eyes when my facts are completely accurate?

MB

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Re: Iraq, $5000 Per Second?
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2008, 11:44:29 AM »
We will be leaving Iraq one way or another.  Either now by our own free will or later, when we're buried in debt and have run out of "credit".   

The Coach

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Re: Iraq, $5000 Per Second?
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2008, 03:12:36 PM »
MB, I guess you didn't bother to read my post of my little comparison?

24KT

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Re: Iraq, $5000 Per Second?
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2008, 08:07:24 PM »
We will be leaving Iraq one way or another.  Either now by our own free will or later, when we're buried in debt and have run out of "credit".   

Has anyone ever considered what happens when China decides it's time for the war to end?

If the US is borrowing from China to finance the war... which they are, doesn't that mean the war continues until the US decides to end it, ...or until their financier decides to end it... whichever comes first.

Do you think it's wise to let a foreign nation control your decisions like that?
What if China pulled the plug tomorrow? What do you think would happen?
w