Author Topic: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona  (Read 1929 times)

Dos Equis

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Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« on: December 22, 2007, 10:42:55 AM »
A story that is sure to warm cap's heart.   :)  Now why can't every state crack down like this? 

Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona 

PHOENIX, Arizona (AP) -- Illegal immigrants in Arizona, frustrated with a flagging economy and tough new legislation cracking down on their employers, are returning to their home countries or trying their luck in other states.
 
Border Patrol officers in Phoenix, Arizona, check a bus depot for illegal immigrants in June 2006.

For months, immigrants have taken a wait-and-see attitude toward the state's new employer-sanctions law, which takes effect January 1. The voter-approved legislation is an attempt to lessen the economic incentive for illegal immigrants in Arizona, the busiest crossing point along the U.S.-Mexico border.

And by all appearances, it's starting to work.

"People are calling me telling me about their friend, their cousin, their neighbors -- they're moving back to Mexico," said Magdalena Schwartz, an immigrant-rights activist and pastor at a Mesa church. "They don't want to live in fear, in terror."

Martin Herrera, a 40-year-old illegal immigrant and masonry worker who lives in Camp Verde, 70 miles north of Phoenix, said he is planning to return to Mexico as soon as he ties up loose ends after living here for four years.

"I don't want to live here because of the new law and the oppressive environment," he said. "I'll be better in my country."

He called the employer-sanctions law "absurd."

"Everybody here, legally or illegally, we are part of a motor that makes this country run," Herrera said. "Once we leave, the motor is going to start to slow down."

There's no way to know how many illegal immigrants are leaving Arizona, especially now with many returning home for normal holiday visits. But economists, immigration lawyers and people who work in the immigrant community agree it's happening.

State Rep. Russell Pearce of Mesa, the author of the employer sanctions law, said his intent was to drive illegal immigrants out of Arizona.

"I'm hoping they will self-deport," Pearce said. "They broke the law. They're criminals."

Under the employer sanctions law, businesses found to have knowingly hired illegal workers will be subject to sanctions from probation to a 10-day suspension of their business licenses. A second violation would bring permanent revocation of the license.

Nancy-Jo Merritt, an immigration lawyer who primarily represents employers, said her clients already have started to fire workers who can't prove they are in the country legally.

"Workers are being fired, of course," she said. "Nobody wants to find out later on that they've got somebody working for them who's not here legally."

When immigrants don't have jobs, they don't stick around, said Dawn McLaren, a research economist at Arizona State University who specializes in illegal immigration.

She said the flagging economy, particularly in the construction industry, also is contributing to an immigrant exodus.

"As the jobs dwindle and the environment becomes more unpleasant in more ways than one, you then decide what to do, and perhaps leaving looks like a good idea," she said. "And certainly that creates a problem, because as people leave, they take the jobs they created with them."

Pearce disagreed that the Arizona economy will suffer after illegal immigrants leave, saying there will be less crime, lower taxes, less congestion, smaller classroom sizes and shorter lines in emergency rooms.

"We have a free market. It'll adjust," he said. "Americans will be much better off."

He said he's not surprised illegal immigrants are leaving the state and predicts that more will go once the employer-sanctions law takes effect next month.

"It's attrition by enforcement," he said. "As you make this an unfriendly state for lawbreakers, I'm hoping they will pick up and leave."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/22/immigrants.leave.ap/index.html

Cap

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2007, 03:54:01 PM »
BB, you made a bad day good.

Seriously though, this is what Homeland Security ought to be.  We are paying billions of OUR tax dollars to people who don't contribute the same and send the money to Mexico.  I hope other states take a note from this and follow AZ's lead.  The sanctions obviously work and should stick around.  To hell with these people. 
Squishy face retard

Dos Equis

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2007, 07:46:51 PM »
BB, you made a bad day good.

Seriously though, this is what Homeland Security ought to be.  We are paying billions of OUR tax dollars to people who don't contribute the same and send the money to Mexico.  I hope other states take a note from this and follow AZ's lead.  The sanctions obviously work and should stick around.  To hell with these people. 

Definitely a blueprint.  Every state should, at a minimum, do this: 

"Under the employer sanctions law, businesses found to have knowingly hired illegal workers will be subject to sanctions from probation to a 10-day suspension of their business licenses. A second violation would bring permanent revocation of the license."

Cap

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2007, 08:02:54 PM »
Definitely a blueprint.  Every state should, at a minimum, do this: 

"Under the employer sanctions law, businesses found to have knowingly hired illegal workers will be subject to sanctions from probation to a 10-day suspension of their business licenses. A second violation would bring permanent revocation of the license."
Add this with legitimate checks on citizenship documents (not just looking at a Soc Sec card) and you really have a good plan.  If you mess with a man/woman's business and livelihood they'll avoid these illegals like the plague.  It seems like a national ID card could help crack down on ID theft.  A buddy of mine told me about an accountant that ran a credit check on himself and found out he had a job at a burger joint.  As soon as they find those things out they should arrest them.  The business should have to report it by law or face charges themselves.
Squishy face retard

Dos Equis

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2007, 08:10:59 PM »
Add this with legitimate checks on citizenship documents (not just looking at a Soc Sec card) and you really have a good plan.  If you mess with a man/woman's business and livelihood they'll avoid these illegals like the plague.  It seems like a national ID card could help crack down on ID theft.  A buddy of mine told me about an accountant that ran a credit check on himself and found out he had a job at a burger joint.  As soon as they find those things out they should arrest them.  The business should have to report it by law or face charges themselves.

I agree.  Give businesses the right incentive (i.e., impact their bottom line) and they will get their act together. 

chaos

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2007, 08:11:25 PM »

"Everybody here, legally or illegally, we are part of a motor that makes this country run," Herrera said. "Once we leave, the motor is going to start to slow down."

Bullshit, there are plenty of legal immigrants and American citizens that can/will do the jobs they leave behind.



"As the jobs dwindle and the environment becomes more unpleasant in more ways than one, you then decide what to do, and perhaps leaving looks like a good idea," she said. "And certainly that creates a problem, because as people leave, they take the jobs they created with them."

How can an illegal immigrant "create" a job? The jobs don't leave with them, the jobs stay here to be done by Americans that belong here.


Pearce disagreed that the Arizona economy will suffer after illegal immigrants leave, saying there will be less crime, lower taxes, less congestion, smaller classroom sizes and shorter lines in emergency rooms.

"We have a free market. It'll adjust," he said. "Americans will be much better off."


I agree with this guy on all points here.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/22/immigrants.leave.ap/index.html
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

War-Horse

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2007, 09:36:19 PM »
I agree, the Illegal immigrants shouldnt be here.   But if you have a guy picking lettuce in a field for 6 dollars an hour and he leaves.... you hire a white guy and what would he charge???    At least 13 an hour right? 
(Okay the price for a head of lettuce just doubled!!)

If he could handle the back breaking work at all for more than 3 days before he files a worker comp claim right?

Things to think about i guess. :-\

chaos

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2007, 09:41:09 PM »
I agree, the Illegal immigrants shouldnt be here.   But if you have a guy picking lettuce in a field for 6 dollars an hour and he leaves.... you hire a white guy and what would he charge???    At least 13 an hour right? 
(Okay the price for a head of lettuce just doubled!!)

If he could handle the back breaking work at all for more than 3 days before he files a worker comp claim right?

Things to think about i guess. :-\
Minimun wage is minimun wage.......not 13 an hour. At the same time, the job may actually have to be legitimized aka, workers comp, insurance, etc. This may increase costs, but hospital, insurance, thievery, accidents, crimes could drop significantly if there are less illegal immigrants.

BTW who says you have to hire a white guy, there are still plenty of legal immigrants as well as "hispanic" citizens that could do the job. If there are less people in general, wages/benefits will have to increase to attract potential employees.
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

Tre

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2007, 09:51:09 PM »

Sacramento needs the warm bodies, badly. 

War-Horse

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2007, 10:05:59 PM »
Minimun wage is minimun wage.......not 13 an hour. At the same time, the job may actually have to be legitimized aka, workers comp, insurance, etc. This may increase costs, but hospital, insurance, thievery, accidents, crimes could drop significantly if there are less illegal immigrants.

BTW who says you have to hire a white guy, there are still plenty of legal immigrants as well as "hispanic" citizens that could do the job. If there are less people in general, wages/benefits will have to increase to attract potential employees.


Good points.   But as an employer myself, i know that costs of comp, un employment insurance and fica is about 30% on top of wages.    By legitimizing it and paying at least 10hr + 30% is 13hr........    Prices for many things could double is all im saying.

All tho i believe the free market could adjust with correction...

Cap

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2007, 05:47:42 AM »

Good points.   But as an employer myself, i know that costs of comp, un employment insurance and fica is about 30% on top of wages.    By legitimizing it and paying at least 10hr + 30% is 13hr........    Prices for many things could double is all im saying.

All tho i believe the free market could adjust with correction...
Yes, wages would raise but like you said the market would adjust.  If wages increased with the price of goods then it really balances out.  A move like this on a federal level (re: no illegals), an implementation would help taxes be spent properly which might even lead to lower taxes if the money is not needed.  AZ alone uses 800 million dollars a year to educate illegals in grades K-12.  CA uses 7.7 billion.  Imagine what could be done with that money.  Education would certainly get better as classes get smaller and teachers get paid better wages leading to better quality teachers. 
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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2007, 10:02:55 AM »
We are making some strides here:

Raids show resolve to find illegal workers
THE ISSUE
Federal immigration officials have reported arresting 19 illegal immigrants in Honolulu.
 
The arrest of 19 allegedly illegal immigrants last week at a downtown construction site and a warehouse in Halawa is an encouraging sign that the government has not surrendered on the issue after setbacks in Congress and the courts. The arrests also signal the need to make employers accountable for such hires.
The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement Office made the arrests after conducting searches at the 36-story Pinnacle Honolulu luxury high-rise being built at Bishop and Beretania streets and the Halawa warehouse. The action drew praise from the Pacific Resources Partnership of contractors and the Hawaii Carpenters Union.

The raids came only two months after a federal judge in California ordered an indefinite delay in allowing the Homeland Security Department to go forward with a crackdown on U.S. companies that employ illegal immigrants. The judge halted a plan to mail Social Security "no match" letters to 140,000 U.S. employers covering 8 million workers, including 127 letters to Hawaii employers. Employees would have to be fired if the discrepancies in numbers could not be corrected.

The judge's ruling reflected concerns about the many errors in the Social Security Administration's database. The wrong information could unfairly punish tens of thousands of legal workers, including native-born or naturalized U.S. citizens.

The raid also showed that the 9,000 or more illegal immigrants in Hawaii are not confined to farms on Maui and the Big Island, where most are believed to work.

"How widespread is the use of illegal immigrants, and how many other workers are being exploited in the process?" asked Kyle Chock, director of the Hawaii labor-contractor partnership. The answer to that might be known after the evidence that triggered the raids is made public.

http://starbulletin.com/2007/12/23/editorial/editorial01.html

chaos

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2007, 01:15:41 PM »

Good points.   But as an employer myself, i know that costs of comp, un employment insurance and fica is about 30% on top of wages.    By legitimizing it and paying at least 10hr + 30% is 13hr........    Prices for many things could double is all im saying.

All tho i believe the free market could adjust with correction...
Not sure of your employment type, but if it is a remedial, non-talent job, why are you paying $10? Are you currently using illegal immigrants at lower wages?

I also think the free market will adjust and I think the savings from insurance/hospitals, auto ins., education, etc will increase dramatically, and could be used to lower taxes, increase wages for our teachers, policemen, firemen....things America needs.
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

Dos Equis

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2007, 04:50:33 PM »
Not sure of your employment type, but if it is a remedial, non-talent job, why are you paying $10? Are you currently using illegal immigrants at lower wages?

I also think the free market will adjust and I think the savings from insurance/hospitals, auto ins., education, etc will increase dramatically, and could be used to lower taxes, increase wages for our teachers, policemen, firemen....things America needs.

I agree.  Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes either. 

War-Horse

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2007, 09:44:32 PM »
I run a residential construction company.   We re-model homes with room additions and do some complete builds from time to time.

The sub contractors i hire have plenty of illegals im sure.    It starts with the concrete guys and goes to framing,drywall, paint, stucco, roofing, landscape etc.

Down here you cant get the mexicans to work for less than 12hr most times.....and its hard to find white guys that will come to work more than 3 days in a row. lol

When i was doing the work 15 yrs ago, the mex's would only charge 1/2 what the white guys would, now its the same wage as a legal citizen.......this is adding to their being pushed out of the market tho as their starting to think we cant live without them.  Indeed, it pisses me off some days....

Tre

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2007, 06:05:49 AM »
I agree.  Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes either. 

What?  They just walk into stores, flash their non-citizen ID and get everything tax-free?

You gotta be kidding me.


Tre

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2007, 06:14:17 AM »
I run a residential construction company.   We re-model homes with room additions and do some complete builds from time to time.

The sub contractors i hire have plenty of illegals im sure.    It starts with the concrete guys and goes to framing,drywall, paint, stucco, roofing, landscape etc.

Down here you cant get the mexicans to work for less than 12hr most times.....and its hard to find white guys that will come to work more than 3 days in a row. lol

When i was doing the work 15 yrs ago, the mex's would only charge 1/2 what the white guys would, now its the same wage as a legal citizen.......this is adding to their being pushed out of the market tho as their starting to think we cant live without them.  Indeed, it pisses me off some days....

Very enlightening post.  $12/hour seems like a lot to pay day laborers, but sounds like a relative bargain if you're getting skilled labor.  When helping my grandfather rehab homes years ago, I remember how reliable and efficient the Mexican roofers were.  Prior to that period, it was easy to find skilled construction workers any time you needed them for pennies on the dollars, but at that time (around 1990-91), he hired a Mexican roofing contractor (to this day, I still do not know any Black roofers) who brought in all Mexican helpers.  No Cubans, no Salvadorans, no anything else...just Mexicans. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2007, 07:26:58 AM »
What?  They just walk into stores, flash their non-citizen ID and get everything tax-free?

You gotta be kidding me.



I was referring to income tax. 

And not every state has a sales tax. 

Cap

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2007, 11:04:28 AM »
Illegals really aren't needed the way people think they are.  Americans will do the work but they want a fair wage and don't want to be pushed out of jobs by a shit wage.  If wages and goods rise at similar rates there is no problem and we eliminate the need for illegals and significantly drop domestic spending on money that is otherwise pissed away on people that send money to Mexico, don't learn our language, refuse to assimilate and still fly Mexican flags (not a crime but hardly showing US pride).

This argument really centers around construction and fruit picking, something that Americans can do fine.  Shit, make the welfare workers do the "shit" jobs and at least they'd be earning their money. 
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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2007, 11:09:52 AM »
Illegals really aren't needed the way people think they are.  Americans will do the work but they want a fair wage and don't want to be pushed out of jobs by a shit wage.  If wages and goods rise at similar rates there is no problem and we eliminate the need for illegals and significantly drop domestic spending on money that is otherwise pissed away on people that send money to Mexico, don't learn our language, refuse to assimilate and still fly Mexican flags (not a crime but hardly showing US pride).

This argument really centers around construction and fruit picking, something that Americans can do fine.  Shit, make the welfare workers do the "shit" jobs and at least they'd be earning their money. 

Dude I completely agree.  They are actually taking jobs away from American citizens.

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2007, 07:19:47 AM »
Quote
Illegals really aren't needed the way people think they are.  Americans will do the work but they want a fair wage and don't want to be pushed out of jobs by a shit wage.  If wages and goods rise at similar rates there is no problem and we eliminate the need for illegals and significantly drop domestic spending on money that is otherwise pissed away on people that send money to Mexico, don't learn our language, refuse to assimilate and still fly Mexican flags (not a crime but hardly showing US pride).

This argument really centers around construction and fruit picking, something that Americans can do fine.  Shit, make the welfare workers do the "shit" jobs and at least they'd be earning their money.

agree 100 %

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Re: Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2007, 08:11:17 AM »
I have had a soft spot for a Gautemalan chick for a while now, and I wouldn't care if she turned out illegal.  :'(

Fucking Spitzer wants to issue drivers licenses to illegals.  ::)