Legalized Marijuana and the Crime Question

[OzmO]

It was out of context.  Nobody really knows what the long term implications will be, but early reports are not good.

The fact drunk drivers kill and injure tons of people isn't very good precedent.

Weed is an intoxicant.  Things like this happened before they legalized it.

Until there is hard data articles like this are mostly conjecture.

The reason i brought up Alcohol is perspective.  If the argument is weed causes problems and therefore shouldn't be legalized, then what of the 1000's of deaths, violence, rape etc. each year that Alcohol causes? 

[Dos Equis]

Weed is an intoxicant.  Things like this happened before they legalized it.

Until there is hard data articles like this are mostly conjecture.

The reason i brought up Alcohol is perspective.  If the argument is weed causes problems and therefore shouldn't be legalized, then what of the 1000's of deaths, violence, rape etc. each year that Alcohol causes? 

There's no question there is conjecture involved. 

I don't think the alcohol comparison helps.  If marijuana will cause injury and death like alcohol, that would be a reason not to legalize it.

[OzmO]

There's no question there is conjecture involved. 

I don't think the alcohol comparison helps.  If marijuana will cause injury and death like alcohol, that would be a reason not to legalize it.

It won't and hasn't.

2 very different effects.

Justifying making illegal while alcohol causes so many more problems is stupid, always has been.

But our real problem isn't alcohol or weed.  Its crank.

[Dos Equis]

It won't and hasn't.

2 very different effects.

Justifying making illegal while alcohol causes so many more problems is stupid, always has been.

But our real problem isn't alcohol or weed.  Its crank.

We'll sounds like you have it figured out.  I don't.  And weed really has nothing to do with alcohol.

What's stupid is what we did with nicotine and tobacco companies.  Much bigger scourge than any drug out there.

[OzmO]

We'll sounds like you have it figured out.  I don't.  And weed really has nothing to do with alcohol.

What's stupid is what we did with nicotine and tobacco companies.  Much bigger scourge than any drug out there.

What i have figured out is there are plenty of conjecture-ridden article out there suggesting weed should be illegal because of the "bad" things that happen all the while we have Alcohol killing, raping and harming thousands a year.  Its a retarded argument.

I think some of the no-smoking are stupid too.

[Dos Equis]

What i have figured out is there are plenty of conjecture-ridden article out there suggesting weed should be illegal because of the "bad" things that happen all the while we have Alcohol killing, raping and harming thousands a year.  Its a retarded argument.

I think some of the no-smoking are stupid too.

You think it's stupid for people to oppose legalization of a drug that might kill, injure, or harm people, because there are other legal drugs that already do the same?  Not a very strong position.

[Necrosis]

You think it's stupid for people to oppose legalization of a drug that might kill, injure, or harm people, because there are other legal drugs that already do the same?  Not a very strong position.

It nullifies the rationale for why alcohol is legal and thus arbitrary and thus pointless to debate.

if safety is an issue then comparing it to a legal drug is a fair argument, particularly when the drug is patently safer. Also, odd you are arguing for more government control?

[OzmO]

You think it's stupid for people to oppose legalization of a drug that might kill, injure, or harm people, because there are other legal drugs that already do the same?  Not a very strong position.

Yeah, because until there is hard data, we are talking conjecture.

But we do have hard date on alcohol and what it does. 

It nullifies the rationale for why alcohol is legal and thus arbitrary and thus pointless to debate.

if safety is an issue then comparing it to a legal drug is a fair argument, particularly when the drug is patently safer. Also, odd you are arguing for more government control?

[Dos Equis]

It nullifies the rationale for why alcohol is legal and thus arbitrary and thus pointless to debate.

if safety is an issue then comparing it to a legal drug is a fair argument, particularly when the drug is patently safer. Also, odd you are arguing for more government control?

No it doesn't.  The safety or dangerousness of a completely unrelated drug is irrelevant.

Where exactly did I argue for government control?

[RRKore]

You think it's stupid for people to oppose legalization of a drug that might kill, injure, or harm people, because there are other legal drugs that already do the same?  Not a very strong position.

...unless the probability of "killing, injuring and harming" is significantly lower than that of the legal drugs, wouldn't you say?

[Dos Equis]

...unless the probability of "killing, injuring and harming" is significantly lower than that of the legal drugs, wouldn't you say?

No.  You judge each substance on its own merit, not whether it has a lower body count than a completely unrelated substance.

[RRKore]

No it doesn't.  The safety or dangerousness of a completely unrelated drug is irrelevant.

...

Errr, what?  In a comparison, you'd be considering the safety of both drugs, wouldn't you?

If safety is the concern, then the DEGREE of "dangerousness" is relevant, isn't it?  

After all, all kinds of things are dangerous to some degree or another but outlawing everything except swaddling one's self in bubble-wrap and staying indoors doesn't seem so reasonable to me.

[OzmO]

Errr, what?  In a comparison, you'd be considering the safety of both drugs, wouldn't you?

If safety is the concern, then the DEGREE of "dangerousness" is relevant, isn't it?  

After all, all kinds of things are dangerous to some degree or another but outlawing everything except swaddling one's self in bubble-wrap and staying indoors doesn't seem so reasonable to me.

I think there might be a connection with the degree of munchies and HoHo's.  Because when i was drunk i never wanted HoHo's....I wanted fried food!     

[Dos Equis]

Errr, what?  In a comparison, you'd be considering the safety of both drugs, wouldn't you?

If safety is the concern, then the DEGREE of "dangerousness" is relevant, isn't it?  

After all, all kinds of things are dangerous to some degree or another but outlawing everything except swaddling one's self in bubble-wrap and staying indoors doesn't seem so reasonable to me.

No.  What the heck does a drunk driver or liver cancer, etc. have to do with someone smoking pot?

[RRKore]

No.  You judge each substance on its own merit, not whether it has a lower body count than a completely unrelated substance.

Are you high now, BB?  

You seriously think that when deciding the legality of a given behavior that comparing it to similar legal behavior is irrelevant?   In what universe?  

BTW, alcohol is not a "completely unrelated substance".  It, like weed, is largely a recreational drug.

[Dos Equis]

Are you high now, BB?  

You seriously think that when deciding the legality of a given behavior that comparing it to similar legal behavior is irrelevant?   In what universe?  

BTW, alcohol is not a "completely unrelated substance".  It, like weed, is largely a recreational drug.

Are you drunk or just dense?  You don't evaluate the safety, health implications of marijuana by looking at the safety, health implications of alcohol.  Makes no sense.  Can't say it any simpler for you.

And yes, they are completely unrelated substances. 

[RRKore]

Anyway, it's almost useless to be discussing this.  At this point, many, many, many Americans have first-hand experience with weed so they're not so susceptible to the exaggerated "reefer madness"-like arguments against it.  

Apparently in Florida right now they're debating whether to legalize it (to some degree) and, in an effort to sway public opinion (guess which way, lol) a certain Sheriff's Dept. decided to use its facebook page to blame weed abuse for some guy who, in a fit of rage, threw and injured a baby.  Laughably, the heavy-handed attempt to slag weed backfired;  When I last looked at the page there were about 3,000 comments with maybe only 1 out of 100 believing the sheriff's account.  

Today, lol, the number of comments is down to 700 or so.  I wonder why?, haha

Here's an account of the whole thing:
http://www.liberalamerica.org/2014/06/10/florida-man-throws-a-baby-across-room-sheriff-blames-marijuana-abuse/

And here's a link to the facebook post that started all the hoopla (you may need to scroll down to find the post):
http://www.facebook.com/polkcountysheriff?fref=photo

[RRKore]

Are you drunk or just dense?  You don't evaluate the safety, health implications of marijuana by looking at the safety, health implications of alcohol.  Makes no sense.  Can't say it any simpler for you.

And yes, they are completely unrelated substances. 

No, they are related in that both are substances used by folks recreationally to attain a state of altered consciousness. 

C'mon, BB, why do you think folks compare them so often if they're "totally unrelated"?  lol

So you seem really good at making declarative statements about your beliefs but I don't see you explaining your rationale for why, when deciding whether a given behavior is legal, you think that considering similar legal behaviors makes no sense. 

Realize, of course, that I'm not saying that's the ONLY factor to consider, but I am saying it's an important one.

[OzmO]

Are you drunk or just dense?  You don't evaluate the safety, health implications of marijuana by looking at the safety, health implications of alcohol.  Makes no sense.  Can't say it any simpler for you.

And yes, they are completely unrelated substances. 

Oh yeah it does.  If your point is that Weed causes problems, then the legality of another substance in the same category that causes far more problems is very relevant.

Don't tell me i can't smoke weed because it causes a few problems when Alcohol is legal and causes  thousands of deaths, violence and rape every year.

Complete bull shit.

[Dos Equis]

Oh yeah it does.  If your point is that Weed causes problems, then the legality of another substance in the same category that causes far more problems is very relevant.

Don't tell me i can't smoke weed because it causes a few problems when Alcohol is legal and causes  thousands of deaths, violence and rape every year.

Complete bull shit.

I'm not telling you cannot smoke.  I'm accepting the fact there are consequences to using this drug and there may be consequences to legalizing this drug.  Whether or not it should be legal is somewhat of a separate question.  At least for me.

I don't think policy makers and voters are making a weed/alcohol comparison, or at least I'm not aware of any.  That might be because it's a very poor way of making a decision on whether or not we should legalize this drug.

My position on this whole subject is closer to Ablow than anyone else.  I posted his commentary several pages back.

[RRKore]

Oh yeah it does.  If your point is that Weed causes problems, then the legality of another substance in the same category that causes far more problems is very relevant.

Don't tell me i can't smoke weed because it causes a few problems when Alcohol is legal and causes  thousands of deaths, violence and rape every year.

Complete bull shit.

BB probably realizes he's not being very logical at this point and is just "sticking to his guns" in a curmudgeonly way.

[Dos Equis]

No, they are related in that both are substances used by folks recreationally to attain a state of altered consciousness. 

C'mon, BB, why do you think folks compare them so often if they're "totally unrelated"?  lol

So you seem really good at making declarative statements about your beliefs but I don't see you explaining your rationale for why, when deciding whether a given behavior is legal, you think that considering similar legal behaviors makes no sense. 

Realize, of course, that I'm not saying that's the ONLY factor to consider, but I am saying it's an important one.

Yes they are both recreational drugs.  That's about where the similarities end.  And this has nothing to do with whether pot should be legalized. 

What declarative statements have I made about legalizing marijuana?

[OzmO]

I'm not telling you cannot smoke.  I'm accepting the fact there are consequences to using this drug and there may be consequences to legalizing this drug.  Whether or not it should be legal is somewhat of a separate question.  At least for me.

I don't think policy makers and voters are making a weed/alcohol comparison, or at least I'm not aware of any.  That might be because it's a very poor way of making a decision on whether or not we should legalize this drug.

My position on this whole subject is closer to Ablow than anyone else.  I posted his commentary several pages back.

Ok.  

Most people who advocate legalizing weed cite things like alcohol and nicotine.   It doesn't make much sense to have things that kill so many people each year yet make something illegal that doesn't.

Much of this is because of the demonetization of weed in our culture.

[RRKore]

Yes they are both recreational drugs.  That's about where the similarities end.  And this has nothing to do with whether pot should be legalized. 

What declarative statements have I made about legalizing marijuana?

Oh, so they ARE related now?  Good for you. 

Who said you made declarative statements "about legalizing marijuana"?  Read it again, mang.

[Dos Equis]

Ok.  

Most people who advocate legalizing weed cite things like alcohol and nicotine.   It doesn't make much sense to have things that kill so many people each year yet make something illegal that doesn't.

Much of this is because of the demonetization of weed in our culture.

I agree people talk about one drug being less dangerous than the other.  What I'm saying is this doesn't drive policy.