U.S. Army General Says Flight 77 Did Not Hit Pentagon

[Dos Equis]

People who claimed the Gulf of Tonken was staged used to be mocked.
They were vindicated when the docs were declassified and it was proved we were never attacked and lied to enter nam.

People who claimed the USS Liberty was fired on intentionally by ISR used to be mocked.
They were proven correct when docs were declassified and it was proven LBJ ordered help NOT assist the ship and that it let to be sunk.

People who claimed JFK was an inside job/conspiracy used to be mocked.
Then it came out a US President falsified the autopsy bullet entry wound, and that the shooter confessed from prison, and Congress admitted there was some sort of conspiracy.

911 is in its infancy.  There will be a second investigation and perhaps then your "common sense" can be revised to meet the reality of the world.

Like I've said before, when people I respect start raising questions and filling in the gaps (like what happened to the bodies and the planes), then I'll pay attention.  What is sad is it really doesn't matter what evidence is produced to support the fact that we were attacked by foreign terrorists, people like you will continue to believe in their conspiracy theory.  You have too much invested in this stuff.  It's like the crop circles example cited by kh300.  Even when the guys who cut the crop circles came out and admitted it was a hoax, the CTs wouldn't buy it.  I think it borders on an illness.
  

[OzmO]

IMO - he sounds like no less of a crackpot than you, I or many other people.   He's drawing the same conclusions that many other people have drawn and in the past (presumabley since I know nothing about this person) he received  some training from our military and was competent enough to be promoted to 2 star general.  Again - what are you qualifications to render any opinion on this

Still no answers to my questions about the two other crashes.  You brought it up as proof of something yet you can't answer answer any follow up questions.   You present two still photos and draw a conclusion about another event and I'm supposed to just agree with you?  How about answering just one question - how many bodies were recovered from the planes in either of those crashes.   You must have found those photos somewhere.  Can you not even attach a link to some more info.  I'd like to draw my own conclusions rather than just agreeing with you based on nothing.  Surely the beginning and end of your argument is more than just two still photos. 

Explain to me how measuring soviet equipment from photo graphs makes him more of an expert at determining whether or not a plane hit a building than you or I.

RE:  c-130

I gave you the links to the strories...  look em up.   Google them.  it took me 5 minutes.

I'm at work too BTW.

[Straw Man]

Like I've said before, when people I respect start raising questions and filling in the gaps (like what happened to the bodies and the planes), then I'll pay attention.  What is sad is it really doesn't matter what evidence is produced to support the fact that we were attacked by foreign terrorists, people like you will continue to believe in their conspiracy theory.  You have too much invested in this stuff.  It's like the crop circles example cited by kh300.  Even when the guys who cut the crop circles came out and admitted it was a hoax, the CTs wouldn't buy it.  I think it borders on an illness.
  

Okay, more words but no additional info.   I have not drawn any final conclusions.  When forced to render an "opinion" I have done so but I'm always open to additional evidence .  It's kind of hard when someone presents a piece of evidence in support of a conclusion about a third event and then essentially says that you must agree with it and don't ask any follow up questions.  If you present the evidence then you should be prepared to answer some follow up questions.  That's not so unreasonable is it?

Regarding crops circles - two guys admitted to making some of them.  You know what that proves?  It proves that two guys made some of them.   Nothing more and nothing less.   It's obviously got nothing to do with 9-11 but if that's your standard of evidence then I'm starting to question your judgement and ability to look at information and draw logical conclusions.   I still woulnd't call you a crackpot though

[Straw Man]

Explain to me how measuring soviet equipment from photo graphs makes him more of an expert at determining whether or not a plane hit a building than you or I

It makes him an expert in that field and lends more credibility to his opinion than either of our opinions .... in my opion.

Lot's of f'ng opinions

[OzmO]

Explain to me how measuring soviet equipment from photo graphs makes him more of an expert at determining whether or not a plane hit a building than you or I

It makes him an expert in that field and lends more credibility to his opinion than either of our opinions .... in my opion.

Lot's of f'ng opinions

No it doesn't becuase his expertese it's not related to the issue.

Anyone can measure things.

If you know the the size of anyone 1 thing in a photograph like a the tire of a Zil car than you can measure anything.  NO brains needed.  At least past the 10th grade level.

Hoepfully this answers your 1st question.

[Dos Equis]

Okay, more words but no additional info.   I have not drawn any final conclusions.  When forced to render an "opinion" I have done so but I'm always open to additional evidence .  It's kind of hard when someone presents a piece of evidence in support of a conclusion about a third event and then essentially says that you must agree with it and don't ask any follow up questions.  If you present the evidence then you should be prepared to answer some follow up questions.  That's not so unreasonable is it?

Regarding crops circles - two guys admitted to making some of them.  You know what that proves?  It proves that two guys made some of them.   Nothing more and nothing less.   It's obviously got nothing to do with 9-11 but if that's your standard of evidence then I'm starting to question your judgement and ability to look at information and draw logical conclusions.   I still woulnd't call you a crackpot though

What additional info?  This entire theory makes absolutely no sense.  It's absurd.  It doesn't pass the laugh test.  It is unreasonable to expect me, or anyone else, to buy this nonsense when fundamental questions like what happened to the bodies and the planes cannot be answered.  

I cited the crop circles as an example of how some people hold onto their conspiracy theories regardless of the evidence.  I believe the 911 CTs have that same mentality.    

[a_joker10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

The USS Liberty was not sunk it was fixed in Malta. You are making up information.

You can research the assassination here
http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/index.html

JFK was killed by Lee Harvey Oswold
As the Warren Commission said.

The Gulf of Tonkin
Seems like an intelligence failure to me. Much like Iraq.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Incident
The Hanyok article states that intelligence information was presented to the Johnson administration "in such a manner as to preclude responsible decisionmakers in the Johnson administration from having the complete and objective narrative of events of 4 August 1964." Instead, "only information that supported the claim that the communists had attacked the two destroyers was given to Johnson administration officials."

[a_joker10]

OzmO and Beach bum,

can you guys answer this one? thanks!

Conjecture.

Why don't you try to use facts.

[OzmO]

OzmO and Beach bum,

can you guys answer this one? thanks!

One person is hugely  different than 3000.  Of course they wouild kill 1 person.  but 3000 or possibly 10,000 americans?  no.

[OzmO]

Also,


Motive alone does not hold up as undisputable fact.

[Straw Man]

No it doesn't becuase his expertese it's not related to the issue.

Anyone can measure things.

If you know the the size of anyone 1 thing in a photograph like a the tire of a Zil car than you can measure anything.  NO brains needed.  At least past the 10th grade level.

Hoepfully this answers your 1st question.

I disagree with your assessment.  I think the skills are somewhat transferable.  If not then that puts him on the same level as you or me.

BTW - I went back and checked the links.  One still doesn't work - I tried last night.

One did work this morning and here's a quote from the article - "I pulled 30 bodies out of the plane. They were all charred," he said.

I thought you said the planes disintegrated so how can someone be able to pull out charred bodies.

How many bodies were recovered from the plane that hit the pentagon???

BTW - I'm sure building standards are much higher in Iran than at the Pentagon or at the WTC.  I guess that's why that building in Iran didn't collapse right?

[Straw Man]

Also,


Motive alone does not hold up as undisputable fact.

excellent point.  

Confession is not proof either.  

[Dos Equis]

One person is hugely  different than 3000.  Of course they wouild kill 1 person.  but 3000 or possibly 10,000 americans?  no.

And exactly who are we talking about?  The president?  VP?  Who gives the order and who carries it out? 

[OzmO]

I disagree with your assessment.  I think the skills are somewhat transferable.  If not then that puts him on the same level as you or me.

Exactly how ar the skills of measuring images transferable to Areodynamic engineering, Strucutural engineering, chemistry and explosives?

I disagree with your assessment.  I think the skills are somewhat transferable.  If not then that puts him on the same level as you or me.

BTW - I went back and checked the links.  One still doesn't work - I tried last night.

Yeah,  i saw that, i'll repost it later.

One did work this morning and here's a quote from the article - "I pulled 30 bodies out of the plane. They were all charred," he said.

I thought you said the planes disintegrated so how can someone be able to pull out charred bodies.

How many bodies were recovered from the plane that hit the pentagon???

I never talked about charred bodies.  I was talking about the lack of plane debris from the crash in both cases of tehran and the pentagon.

BTW - I'm sure building standards are much higher in Iran than at the Pentagon or at the WTC.  I guess that's why that building in Iran didn't collapse right?

There are other variables:  speed of the plane being one.  A c-130 doesn't fly every fast or might not have been flying as fast when it hit.   another varieble would be where the plane hit each biulding.

[Straw Man]

more from the article:

The front of the plane was destroyed on impact. A propeller and ripped wing smoldered in front of the blackened building. Flames licked out of the windows of the apartments and thick black smoke billowed into the sky.

"Some people were throwing themselves out of windows to escape the flames. I saw two die like that," a policeman said.

Passerby Hassan Hedayati, his face covered in dust and hands caked with dried blood, was among the first on the scene.

"I pulled 30 bodies out of the plane. They were all charred," he said.

The apartment block, which was still standing, is in the Shahrak-e Towhid neighborhood


Not sure that I see exactly how this applies to the event at the Pentagon.   There seems to be more wreckage (from the article not from the photo), there seem to be bodies (none were recovered from the plane at that hit the Pentagon - I could be wrong though so please feel free to correct me on that), the shitty ass building in Tehran is still standing yet the Pentagon suffered a partial collapse.

As you've mentioned there are a lot of variables.  I just don't see how this event proves anything about the Pentagon.  If anything, this event seems to contradict the popular narrative about the event at the Pentagon

[OzmO]

No.  But when you can show motive, as we clearly can, then we cannot allow the group to investigate itself, as happened with the 9/11 commission.

We've already established that there will be another investigation.

And when you say 1 person is hugely different from 3000... really? 
If they'll kill 1, will they kill 5?  At what point do you think they would have the decency to say "that's too many dead people"?

Donno, niether do you, i just know that "IF" it was a inside job they had to know they could potentially kill 10,000 americans.  So,  no way.

Can you look at George bush and say "that man would absolutely NOT have 3000 killed"?  he's done it in Iraq with American troops and is still staying the course (even possibly raising force levels in Jan).

You are using Iraq to make a point with 9/11.  While it's a decent debating technique these are 2 completely different issues.

He has no choice but to stay his course ATM.  Politcally he has no way out ATM.

[Mr. Intenseone]

where's the nice round hole?

In your head, if you believe it's a conspiracy!!

[Straw Man]

In your head, if you believe it's a conspiracy!!

I have at least 5 holes in my head that I'm aware of.   

Shouldn't you be sucking Rush's nuts right about now?

[OzmO]

I have at least 5 holes in my head that I'm aware of.   

Shouldn't you be sucking Rush's nuts right about now?

lol

This tells me you have other getbig accounts.   

Who are you?  lol

[Straw Man]

lol

This tells me you have other getbig accounts.   

Who are you?  lol

I have another account but I rarely ever used it.  I just started looking at this site more regularly in the last month or so.

[Dos Equis]

You can answer for each of them if you want.

i'm referring to both the group which wrote "rebuilding our nations defenses" (PNAC) and the larger group which many refer to as the invisible govt.

It's beyond your understanding, beach bum. you quit high school to be a parent and can't understand basic economics or US history, so I expect some lame joke here from you.

For the rest of the class, it should be reasonable to believe that if every one of these lofty goals could be achieved with the killing of one stranger, most in govt would advocate it.  Two deaths, sure.  I guess there's a mental block that comes up between 2 death and 3000 deaths that most people cannot bridge.  As terrible as it is, I believe 3,000 was considered an acceptable loss for them in order to justify the actions they have since taken.

PS... Bush won't deny he knew about 9/11 ahead of time.

I quit high school to be a parent about the same time you became a homosexual.  And yet, here we are. 

[kh300]

parts of the airplane including the nose cone, landing gear, an airplane tire, the fuselage, an intact cockpit seat, and the tail number of the airplane were recovered and photographed.

A team of more than 100 forensic specialists and others identified 184 of the 189 people who died in the Pentagon attack (125 from the Pentagon and 64 onboard American Airlines flight 77). All but one of the passengers onboard American Airlines flight 77 was positively identified as a match with DNA samples provided by the families of the crash victims

At 9:12 am, approximately 10 minutes after the American Airlines flight 77 had been hijacked, passenger Renee May called her mother, Nancy May, to report that the plane had been hijacked and that the passengers had been herded to the back of the plane.

Minutes later, passenger Barbara Olson called her husband Ted Olson, the solicitor general of the United States, also reporting that the flight had been hijacked, and that the hijackers had knives and box cutters.

[Straw Man]

parts of the airplane including the nose cone, landing gear, an airplane tire, the fuselage, an intact cockpit seat, and the tail number of the airplane were recovered and photographed.

A team of more than 100 forensic specialists and others identified 184 of the 189 people who died in the Pentagon attack (125 from the Pentagon and 64 onboard American Airlines flight 77). All but one of the passengers onboard American Airlines flight 77 was positively identified as a match with DNA samples provided by the families of the crash victims

At 9:12 am, approximately 10 minutes after the American Airlines flight 77 had been hijacked, passenger Renee May called her mother, Nancy May, to report that the plane had been hijacked and that the passengers had been herded to the back of the plane.

Minutes later, passenger Barbara Olson called her husband Ted Olson, the solicitor general of the United States, also reporting that the flight had been hijacked, and that the hijackers had knives and box cutters.

I stand corrected.  I think I did say please correct me if I'm wrong. 

If most of Flight 77 disintegrated from hitting the Pentagon's wall and the rest of it burned up after the explosion, how did officials manage to find the remains of all but one of the 64 passengers onboard inside the building all the way up to the Ring C?

How does the plane basically vaporize or burn so hot that it melts but the bodies are identifiable?

Keep showing me more info and I'll lean more toward your side.

Since I know nothing about the forensic results that the Pentagon I'd have to research it a bit more but yes, bodies do a lot to support the idea that a plane hit the Pentagon.   

[Dos Equis]

LOL... making up lies when you're exposed?  Hi Rumsfeld!!

Dude, you dropped outta school.  Which is fine.  This shows why you don't have the stat 1 class behind you, to understand the anomalies in the 2004 election.  This explains your inability to understand the dollar's decline and ramifications for our children, that would be ECO 1.  And a nice History 1815-Present class would have taught you about false-flag attacks. 

You're arguing from a disadvantage in that you don't possess knowledge of the things we speak of. Easy for you to blow off what you can't understand.

Don't be embarrassed 240.  Stand up and be proud.  Embrace your homosexuality.  It's part of who you are.  

And re education:  you are probably the most uneducated person on this board.  Anyone who believes our government faked the moon landing, and has been fooling the entire world all this time, is a nut.  (That would be you.)  If in fact you have a degree from an institution of higher learning, I'd say you are entitled to a refund.  

[kh300]

I stand corrected.  I think I did say please correct me if I'm wrong. 

If most of Flight 77 disintegrated from hitting the Pentagon's wall and the rest of it burned up after the explosion, how did officials manage to find the remains of all but one of the 64 passengers onboard inside the building all the way up to the Ring C?

How does the plane basically vaporize or burn so hot that it melts but the bodies are identifiable?

Keep showing me more info and I'll lean more toward your side.

Since I know nothing about the forensic results that the Pentagon I'd have to research it a bit more but yes, bodies do a lot to support the idea that a plane hit the Pentagon.   

dna