State YOUR worldviews

[Necrosis]

Do you believe that life just magically started from nothing to something, just like a coincidence? And, what do you mean by evidence that nothing never existed?

what?

no of course not. Nothing has never existed, something has always existed this is based on logic. However religious people beleive something can come from nothing, that the universe was just created by god, whole. Bang, magic.

[Beefjake]

If by God you, people who read that mistranslated book which was heavily edited by the pope in the 1300s', mean a Supreme Being to our standards I'm with you.

I do believe there is life " out there ".
Could it seem godlike to us - why not?

Could Milkyway be just some fuckup experiment - it could.

[Butterbean]

you do beleive that the universe came from nothing, that god just magically made it. Scientists on the other hand do not beleive this and have evidence that nothing never existed.

What is the evidence?

[Necrosis]

What is the evidence?

energy can neither be created nor destroyed hence energy also existed, you can convert energy into matter but the amt in the universe stays the same. from the big bang which is the leading theory in cosmology we can infer that expansion from an infinitely dense point with the same energy as we have now. No change.

Perhaps the universe osscilates? perhaps their are continual big bangs all i know is that something is eternal and it happens to be energy. No one truly knows what energy is but we can measure and manipulate it, making it not god if that was an argument you were striving for.


stella you beleive the universe came from nothing and yet christians try to pin this argument on scientists.

[Butterbean]

Necrosis, do you feel that a live person has different (less) energy than a dead one?

If so, what do you think happens to the energy of a live person when they die?

[Necrosis]

Necrosis, do you feel that a live person has different (less) energy than a dead one?

If so, what do you think happens to the energy of a live person when they die?

no they dont.  There organs fail and the energy required to live is dissipated into the surroundings and the cycle begins.

[Butterbean]

no they dont.  There organs fail and the energy required to live is dissipated into the surroundings and the cycle begins.

So a person's energy is merely what it took to keep the organs functioning? 

Where in the surroundings does the energy go? 

What do you mean "and the cycle begins?"

[Necrosis]

So a person's energy is merely what it took to keep the organs functioning? 

Where in the surroundings does the energy go? 

What do you mean "and the cycle begins?"

yes, a level of complexity which aids in its own coherence. I have no idea where the energy goes, it doesnt go anywhere mind you, just changes, the amount is the same.

i meant to say the cycle begins anew.

[liberalismo]

I believe that all that is did not just "happen."  I believe we and even a single cell are too complex to have just occurred from nothing.  SOme people may believe that matter always existed and if that was the case I still don't see things like vision springing forth from some life form because it would assist in it's survival.

The single cells didn't occur from nothing. They occurred from complex chains of amino acids and organic matter.

Matter was created at the Big bang.

I see no inexplicable contradictions in the Bible which makes me believe it was divinely inspired.  I know that some people believe that it is full of contradictions but from what I've seen some are not open to possible explanations. 

At creation, which came first, the humans or the various 'beasts'?

Did Jesus ride into Jerusalem on a Colt or an Ass?

Who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah?

Has anyone visually seen God?

How did Judas die?

Does God ever change or is he unchanging?

Was God pleased or displeased with his creations?

Who lived the flood beside Noah, his family and the Animals on the Ark? Did the Nephilim die in the flood or did they live the flood?

Does God ever tempt?

Does God oppose the killing of innocent people?

Where did Aaron die?

The salvation message in the Bible and me accepting Christ as Savior has changed my life and others around me (as far as I can tell ).  I feel peace like never before in my life, happier than I was before... etc.

But does this lend credibility to the bible or to Christianity? What about people who's lives are positively changed who convert to Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism?

Do you believe that life began as a single organism and evolved from there?

Yes.

No.

What about the Usher Chronology? Was he incorrect in his calculations? How?

Why do you believe this?

That's what the evidence supports. Cosmic background radiation, Hubble diagram, the ages of the stars, dark matter and dark energy, and many other very complicated tests and effects which support this scenario I described.

[liberalismo]

energy can neither be created nor destroyed hence energy also existed, you can convert energy into matter but the amt in the universe stays the same. from the big bang which is the leading theory in cosmology we can infer that expansion from an infinitely dense point with the same energy as we have now. No change.

Perhaps the universe osscilates? perhaps their are continual big bangs all i know is that something is eternal and it happens to be energy. No one truly knows what energy is but we can measure and manipulate it, making it not god if that was an argument you were striving for.


stella you beleive the universe came from nothing and yet christians try to pin this argument on scientists.

Saying that the universe came from something or came from nothing makes no sense in the context of the big bang. Some physicists believe that the universe could have come from nothing, like quantum fluctuations.

[liberalismo]

Necrosis, do you feel that a live person has different (less) energy than a dead one?

If so, what do you think happens to the energy of a live person when they die?

When a person dies, the energy is still there, but it can't be used because the body is not functioning. The caloric energy, or potential caloric energy in fat or food, is all still there but nothing can be done with it for the body since the body isn't functioning. The energy and mass do eventually dissipate into the environment though, when the body rots away.

[Necrosis]

Saying that the universe came from something or came from nothing makes no sense in the context of the big bang. Some physicists believe that the universe could have come from nothing, like quantum fluctuations.

agreed, a actual singularity never existed it is simply a cosmological model represented by elequent mathematics. From a purely philosophical standpoint something has to be eternal. Nothingness would negate existence for eternity.

I am aware that quantum fluctuations occur out of nothingness in a physicist sense.

[Butterbean]

yes, a level of complexity which aids in its own coherence. I have no idea where the energy goes, it doesnt go anywhere mind you, just changes, the amount is the same.

i meant to say the cycle begins anew.

anew..OK!

By this do you mean the cycle of life?  If so, are you saying that the energy from a dead person goes into an embryo?

[Butterbean]

At creation, which came first, the humans or the various 'beasts'?

Did Jesus ride into Jerusalem on a Colt or an Ass?

Who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah?

Has anyone visually seen God?

How did Judas die?

Does God ever change or is he unchanging?

Was God pleased or displeased with his creations?

Who lived the flood beside Noah, his family and the Animals on the Ark? Did the Nephilim die in the flood or did they live the flood?

Does God ever tempt?

Does God oppose the killing of innocent people?

Where did Aaron die?

Hope it's OK if I make another thread on these!

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=251189.0

[Butterbean]

The single cells didn't occur from nothing. They occurred from complex chains of amino acids and organic matter.

Matter was created at the Big bang.

So the complex chains of amino acids were created at the big bang?

What caused the big bang?

But does this lend credibility to the bible or to Christianity? What about people who's lives are positively changed who convert to Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism?

Yes.  Accuracy of Prophecy is also another reason I believe the bible to be true.

Additionally, the grace/faith approach presented in the bible makes more sense to me than a works-based "religion."

Yes.

What are your thoughts on the fact that now in general 2 people or animals are needed to reproduce?

What about the Usher Chronology? Was he incorrect in his calculations? How?

Ussher doesn't seem to allow for Genesis 1:1-2 not stating how long the earth lay formless and empty and the Spirit of God wa hovering over the waters.

I used to read quickly over that also, and assumed that those verses should be married in time immediately with the rest of chapter one, but it is not stated that way.  (I think I learned that from loco ).

That's what the evidence supports. Cosmic background radiation, Hubble diagram, the ages of the stars, dark matter and dark energy, and many other very complicated tests and effects which support this scenario I described.

Would you think it fair to say you have "faith" that what you have learned about the above is true?

[Necrosis]

anew..OK!

By this do you mean the cycle of life?  If so, are you saying that the energy from a dead person goes into an embryo?

it could theoretically but no one knows,all we know is that the universe is a steady state with regards to energy. Also just from your other response, you cant ask what caused the big bang and time came into existence in a defined epoch.It is the beginning of baryonic matter formation and the universe as we know it.

We dont know anything beyond the big bang if there is anything to know at all.

[Butterbean]

it could theoretically but no one knows,all we know is that the universe is a steady state with regards to energy. Also just from your other response, you cant ask what caused the big bang and time came into existence in a defined epoch.It is the beginning of baryonic matter formation and the universe as we know it.

We dont know anything beyond the big bang if there is anything to know at all.

OK, thanks.

You may have answered this but do you believe that non-baryonic matter existed before the big bang?

Also, regarding energy, how do you think it works out that the energy to bring an embryo to life knows to occupy that embryo? 

[Necrosis]

OK, thanks.

You may have answered this but do you believe that non-baryonic matter existed before the big bang?

Also, regarding energy, how do you think it works out that the energy to bring an embryo to life knows to occupy that embryo? 

well in that case it is matter. The questions you are asking are resting on assumptions that there is something to know in conception apart from the mechinistic determination of the parts. that is, sperm swim to the fallopian tubes, penetrate the egg, form a zygote,a morula etc etc.. a baby comes out. You are suggesting that energy has to have some inherent sentience to choose to create life, you are suggesting that this is the only avenue, perhaps because you believe in god. I simply dont know and will side with the evidence regardless of the outcome.

I dont know with regards to your first question, i am not equipped with enough knowledge of cosmology nor mathematics to understand the singularity or the big bang fully. It is a complex theory, i know the basics. I use to think an actual singularity exsited, however i was corrected by a cosmologist that it is more of a mathematical representation and not a real event. Our laws, our math breaks down at a point. Quantum gravity may allow us to go back further, but as you can imagine to recite the beginning of the universe is a difficult concept since we are going back in time.

Trust me i wish there was a god, a loving god who would take me into heaven and make all the wrongs right. I wish that the things i do in life matter in the grand scheme of things, that my loved ones will be waiting for me. Sadly it doesnt look like any of that is true and i have no reason to believe it to be so. So i sober up and take in reality and roll with the punches. My life has more meaning when i live it as if it is my only one, as if i can create purpose. If i live for eternity nothing i do matters because there is no end, eternity attenuates purpose and meaning.

[Butterbean]

well in that case it is matter. The questions you are asking are resting on assumptions that there is something to know in conception apart from the mechinistic determination of the parts. that is, sperm swim to the fallopian tubes, penetrate the egg, form a zygote,a morula etc etc.. a baby comes out. You are suggesting that energy has to have some inherent sentience to choose to create life, you are suggesting that this is the only avenue, perhaps because you believe in god. I simply dont know and will side with the evidence regardless of the outcome.

I dont know with regards to your first question, i am not equipped with enough knowledge of cosmology nor mathematics to understand the singularity or the big bang fully. It is a complex theory, i know the basics. I use to think an actual singularity exsited, however i was corrected by a cosmologist that it is more of a mathematical representation and not a real event. Our laws, our math breaks down at a point. Quantum gravity may allow us to go back further, but as you can imagine to recite the beginning of the universe is a difficult concept since we are going back in time.

Necrosis, thank you for your sincere responses.  They are very informative and I appreciate the manner in which they are delivered

Trust me i wish there was a god, a loving god who would take me into heaven and make all the wrongs right. I wish that the things i do in life matter in the grand scheme of things, that my loved ones will be waiting for me. Sadly it doesnt look like any of that is true and i have no reason to believe it to be so. So i sober up and take in reality and roll with the punches. My life has more meaning when i live it as if it is my only one, as if i can create purpose. If i live for eternity nothing i do matters because there is no end, eternity attenuates purpose and meaning.

Necrosis, have you ever considered asking God to show you He is real?  I know you believe He is not there but it's just something I think you may want to try.

Thanks again for the info

[D-bol]

I believe God created the world.  I believe the bible is true and I also don't have enough faith to believe that everything on earth and the fact that earth supports all kinds of life happened through chaos or chance.  I believe earth has a designer and a sustainer and that is God.
Don't know.

Stella, just curious, are you familiar with the basic conception of probability and random process?

Its just that you are using words "chaos" and "chance" and claim that you don't believe the world evolves by them, but just what exactly is your understanding of these notions?

[liberalismo]

So the complex chains of amino acids were created at the big bang?

No. They formed much later.

What caused the big bang?

I don't know.

Yes. 

What about people who's lives are positively changed who convert to Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism?

Additionally, the grace/faith approach presented in the bible makes more sense to me than a works-based "religion."

What do you mean?

What are your thoughts on the fact that now in general 2 people or animals are needed to reproduce?

It was evolutionarily beneficial. It added more genetic diversity. There are still some species that reproduce asexually.

Ussher doesn't seem to allow for Genesis 1:1-2 not stating how long the earth lay formless and empty and the Spirit of God wa hovering over the waters.

But do you 'know' that it was left formless for a long period of time, opposed to the basic "day" used in Genesis? Is there any reason to believe that the "day" used would mean anything longer than 24 hours?


Also, Genesis 1 says that Earth and the Heavens were made first. The truth is that the earth was formed a long time after the rest of the universe formed. The universe is about 13 billion years old, compared to the 4 billion year old earth. Why did Genesis get this wrong?

I used to read quickly over that also, and assumed that those verses should be married in time immediately with the rest of chapter one, but it is not stated that way.  (I think I learned that from loco ).

It's convenient to think that isn't it? But what justification do you have to assume that it is that way? That the "day" means anything longer than 12 or 24 hours?

Would you think it fair to say you have "faith" that what you have learned about the above is true?

No. That's all supported by facts and observations.

Faith is what isn't seen, isn't observed, isn't proven, isn't supported, etc.

[Butterbean]

Stella, just curious, are you familiar with the basic conception of probability and random process?

Its just that you are using words "chaos" and "chance" and claim that you don't believe the world evolves by them, but just what exactly is your understanding of these notions?

If you are saying that things like diff. species, vision, emotions and a sense of right and wrong etc. can be explained by probability and random process then, no I must not be very familiar w/them.

Do you have a link to which you can direct me so I can learn a bit more please?

[Butterbean]

What about people who's lives are positively changed who convert to Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism?

What about them?  I don't understand the question?  You saw I paired the last time you asked w/the below?

Yes.  Accuracy of Prophecy is also another reason I believe the bible to be true.

What do you mean?

I mean it's easier for me to accept a grace/faith approach as in, you believe in Christ as Savior, you're in. 

If it is a works-based religion, it is hard for me to accept that there is anything I can DO to be saved.  Some people think it's a be more good than bad type thing or perform these certain rituals however many times and do this and that and you're in, but don't do this or your bad outweighs your good etc etc...  So do you gain and lose your salvation possibly many times in a single day? 

Christianity focuses on Christ and what He did for us, works-based religions are more self-focused.  Christianity is about accepting Christ and helping others.  If you look at society, if a person is mostly self-focused there can be perpetual negative consequences coming directly from that, little peace etc.   A grace/faith...focus on others approach makes more sense to me than a self-focus approach.

It was evolutionarily beneficial. It added more genetic diversity. There are still some species that reproduce asexually.

But how can it be seen as beneficial?  If 2 aren't available (in most species) then won't extinction occur? 

But do you 'know' that it was left formless for a long period of time, opposed to the basic "day" used in Genesis? Is there any reason to believe that the "day" used would mean anything longer than 24 hours?

Do I "know" no.  Are you talking about creating the earth or how long it was hanging around before God created life?

I believe He could have created it in one basic day, sure.  But aren't we talking about how long it could have been created before He created life? There is no specific statement there about that.

It's convenient to think that isn't it? But what justification do you have to assume that it is that way? That the "day" means anything longer than 12 or 24 hours?
 

Could be a day as we know it but also there is also scripture that says a day w/the Lord is as 1000 years.

No. They formed much later.




No. That's all supported by facts and observations.

Faith is what isn't seen, isn't observed, isn't proven, isn't supported, etc.

You said earlier that amino chains were formed after the big bang.  Would you say you have faith that what you have learned about this is true?

You see my point that scientists have theorized things that you have learned from them and now you accept those things as true?  I'm sure you know that no scientists were there watching the first amino chains being formed right?

We both have faith

[Necrosis]

You said earlier that amino chains were formed after the big bang.  Would you say you have faith that what you have learned about this is true?

You see my point that scientists have theorized things that you have learned from them and now you accept those things as true?  I'm sure you know that no scientists were there watching the first amino chains being formed right?

We both have faith

totally different, we know how amino acids replicate, the intimacy with DNA, enzymes etc... theories are collections of facts. These theories are tested and whatever the outcome is accepted. Faith has no evidence, self replicating molecules are fact.

[liberalismo]

What about them?  I don't understand the question?  You saw I paired the last time you asked w/the below?

If having one's life positively changed due to Christianity is evidence of Christianity, How is having one's live positively changed due to Islam or Buddhism not evidence for those belief systems?

I mean it's easier for me to accept a grace/faith approach as in, you believe in Christ as Savior, you're in. 

If it is a works-based religion, it is hard for me to accept that there is anything I can DO to be saved.  Some people think it's a be more good than bad type thing or perform these certain rituals however many times and do this and that and you're in, but don't do this or your bad outweighs your good etc etc...  So do you gain and lose your salvation possibly many times in a single day? 

Christianity focuses on Christ and what He did for us, works-based religions are more self-focused.  Christianity is about accepting Christ and helping others.  If you look at society, if a person is mostly self-focused there can be perpetual negative consequences coming directly from that, little peace etc.   A grace/faith...focus on others approach makes more sense to me than a self-focus approach.

Didn't Jesus say that a man's faith is justified by the works that he does and not his faith alone?

James 2:24; Rom. 3:20, Matt. 5:16, James 2:22

But how can it be seen as beneficial?  If 2 aren't available (in most species) then won't extinction occur? 

Yes, but obviously the genetic diversity added by sexual reproduction outweighed the disadvantage of the possibility of not finding a mate. Though, in almost all species, there is an abundance of possible mates, but only those most fit or appealing tend to mate, which is natural selection.

Do I "know" no.  Are you talking about creating the earth or how long it was hanging around before God created life?

I believe He could have created it in one basic day, sure.  But aren't we talking about how long it could have been created before He created life? There is no specific statement there about that.

Why believe that it was sitting around for billions of years before he put life on it or before he put humans on it? What biblical passage supports this idea?

Could be a day as we know it but also there is also scripture that says a day w/the Lord is as 1000 years.

This doesn't mean that it was actually sitting around for that long.

You said earlier that amino chains were formed after the big bang.  Would you say you have faith that what you have learned about this is true?

No. Various observations tell us what did exist right after the big bang, which elements, etc. It would not have been possible for amino acids to form until the necessary elements had formed. This means it happened after the big bang. Not faith, reason.

You see my point that scientists have theorized things that you have learned from them and now you accept those things as true?  I'm sure you know that no scientists were there watching the first amino chains being formed right?

The problem with your statement: People don't need to directly see something to know that it happened. If this were true then forensic people or CSI would never be able to prove anything.

If I see footprints leading in the mud, do I need to see the person as they make them to assume that a person made these footprints? No. If I see various facts which provide understandings of what happened millions or billions of years ago, do I need to observe these things as they happened to know things about them? No.

Plus, did you know that light travels at a certain speed? It takes a certain amount of time for light across the universe to reach us here on earth. This means that some light traveling to us here on earth is billions of years old, some of it is actually as old as the universe. This means that what we see at the farthest reaches of the universe ARE the lights created during or right after the big bang.

We both have faith

I really don't. It would depend on how you define "faith", for instance some definitions have it as simply "belief", but I do NOT believe in things that I can't prove to be true or have no evidence are true, even a little evidence.