I find it very odd that despite posting a bunch of verses with various bolded texts, not one verse contains the topic of your thread, "There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit." Perhaps I prematurely assumed that the implication of a thread title is that the thread itself would discuss it or contain some support for it.
It's very obvious, but I'll play along:
Genesis 1:26
New International Version (NIV)
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
God talking to God, one person of the Trinity talking to another person of the Trinity.
Genesis 18:1
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Genesis 18:22
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.
Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.
The LORD, in human form on earth, rained down burning sulfur from the LORD, in spirit form, out of the heavens.
Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
John 8:58-59
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
Jesus claims to be God.
John 10:30-33
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
Jesus claims to be God, again.
John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Jesus claims to be God, again.
John 20:27-29
27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Thomas calls Jesus God and worships Him, and Jesus neither stops him nor corrects him.
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Jesus puts himself(The Son) and the Holy Spirit at the same level of God the Father.
If it really were obvious you would not be needing the green text which explains YOUR interpretation of those verses. If there was a verse remotely similar to the text in your thread title, "There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit" then there would be no debate or need to try to explain certain verses to show that they can fit with what you want to believe. The portion of your thread title which I bolded is the part that is non-scriptural and therefore the part which you cannot show. Otherwise, yes there is lots of statements in scripture that there is only one God.
When I have more time this evening, God-willing, I will post verses that show that Jesus could not have been God.
Genesis 1:26PREACH brother loco!
New International Version (NIV)
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
Genesis 18:1
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Genesis 18:22
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.
Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.
Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
John 8:58-59
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
John 10:30-33
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 20:27-29
27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
lol you skipped me huh poor whitey ex-christian here ;D
Did you even read what I said? In your unfortunate ignorance of semetic languages, you thought 'our' and 'we' meant the trinity.
PREACH brother loco!
Feel blessed to read this post!
Then by all means, instead of posting your own Bible verses pointing to the contrary, why don't you please take each one of the verses I posted and tell me what is your own interpretation?
This thread is not an attempt to convert Muslims or atheists. You are entitled to your beliefs and your own interpretations. I believe in freedom of religion.
I created this thread in response to claims I read in other threads that there is absolutely no evidence of the Trinity in the Bible, and also claims that Jesus never claimed to be God. I just showed you why I, and millions of other Christians, believe that Jesus is God and that God is one in three persons.
Will do when I have time, and on the one condition that you also do the same when I subsequently post a multitude of verses in this thread which show that Jesus denied being God and clarified that he was a man. Let me know.
lol so you admit you just made that up and that in fact it has nothing to do with the trinity? You were just not aware of semetic languages.
No hurt feelings bro, I believe in God Almighty as Jesus preached and that is without the trinity ;) After all Jesus differentiated himself from God all the time!
No actually you lose credibility when you portray something as something else 8)
In your lack of understanding of semetic languages combined with your zeal in trinitarianism you assumed that those verses were talking about the trinity. The trinity did not exist until after Jesus left from this world.
The verses you spoke of and MANY other verses which speak of 'our', 'we' even have not a single time clicked with Jews to mean the trinity. Why? Because it has nothing to do with the trinity but rather the plural respect, the royal respect.
It is the same in the qur'an. Our and we are used over and over again. Hebrew, Arabic and the language of Jesus Aramaic all use this plural of respect.
So I guess you won't admit that you made false claims about those verses :)
No actually you did. You didn't know about semetic languages and their use of plural respect. You tried to claim that was the trinity when "our" and "we" are in the verses.
I'm pretty sure you are also not aware that the english translated bible keeps saying "God" when in fact the original scriptures say "Ellohim" (gods in the literal if you were to misunderstand semetic languages).
It's not self explanatory. That's why I gave you an explanation as you lacked knowledge on the matter.
Jewish scholars point to the majestic plural or the royal we in many verses of the Hebrew Bible or Tanakh. "Obviously, the plural form is used in the same way as in the divine appellation 'Elohim', to indicate the all-inclusiveness of God's attributes of authority and power, the plurality of majesty. It is customary for authority figures to speak of themselves as if they were a plurality. Hence, Absalom said to Ahithophel, "Give your counsel what we shall do" (2 Samuel 16:20). The context shows that he was seeking advice for himself yet he refers to himself as 'we' (see also Ezra 4:16-19).[5]
The tradition of the royal we may also be traced to the Mughals of India and Sultans of Banu Abbas and Banu Umayyah. The royal we is used to express the dignity or highest position either understood as strictly hierarchical or as referential to an alternate "higher" than ego identity.
There are many verses in the Qur'an where Allah speaks using the Arabic pronoun nahnu (meaning "we") or its associated suffix. "We" created, "we" sent down, etc.[6] It is also used in the second person in formal diplomatic language, associated with a style or honorific. For instance, the President of Egypt would be addressed as فخامتكم Fakhāmatakum, "Your (plural) Excellency" in formal diplomatic communications (e.g. diplomatic telegrams).
This usage is also popular among the speakers of the Batangan dialect of Tagalog, while some actors and politicians such as Philippine President Benigno Aquino III have been known to use the Tagalog exclusive form in giving interviews.
Genesis 1:26
New International Version (NIV)
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
Genesis 18:1
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Genesis 18:22
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.
Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.
Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
John 8:58-59
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
John 10:30-33
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”.
John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
I find it very odd that despite posting a bunch of verses with various bolded texts, not one verse contains the topic of your thread, "There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit." Perhaps I prematurely assumed that the implication of a thread title is that the thread itself would discuss it or contain some support for it.VERY POOR LOGIC, The word Bible or the Bible is not mentioned or talked about in the Bible
VERY POOR LOGIC, The word Bible or the Bible is not mentioned or talked about in the Bible
so God is a split personality ? a divine three legged stool
explains alot
Allah is one.
so God is a split personality ? a divine three legged stool
explains alot
JEWISHNESS AND THE TRINITY
By Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Founder/Director of Ariel Ministries
"Shema Yisroel Adonai Elochenu Adonai Echad"
(Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.)
Rabbi Stanley Greenberg of Temple Sinai in Philadelphia wrote:
"Christians are, of course, entitled to believe in a Trinitarian conception of God. but their effort to base this conception on the Hebrew Bible must fly in the face of the overwhelming testimony of that Bible. Hebrew Scriptures are clear and unequivocal on the oneness of God The Hebrew Bible affirms the one God with unmistakable clarity Monotheism, an uncompromising belief in one God, is the hallmark of the Hebrew Bible, the unwavering affirmation of Judaism and the unshakable faith of the Jew."
Whether Christians are accused of being polytheists or tritheists and whether or not it is admitted that the Christian concept of the Tri-unity is a form of monotheism, one element always appears: one cannot believe in the Trinity and be Jewish. Even if what Christians believe is monotheistic, it still does not seem to be monotheistic enough to qualify as true Jewishness. Rabbi Greenberg's article tends to reflect that thinking.
He went on to say, "... under no circumstances can a concept of a plurality of the Godhead or a trinity of the Godhead ever be based upon the Hebrew Bible." It is perhaps best to begin with the very source of Jewish theology and the only means of testing it: Hebrew Scriptures. Since so much relies on Hebrew Scripture usage, then to the Hebrew we should turn.
GOD IS A PLURALITY
The Name Elohim
It is generally agreed that Elohim is a plural noun having the masculine plural ending "im." The very word Elohim used of the true God in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," is also used in Exodus 20:3, "You shall have no other gods (Elohim) before Me," and in Deuteronomy 13:2, "Let us go after other gods (Elohim)... ." While the use of the plural Elohim does not prove a Tri-unity, it certainly opens the door to a doctrine of plurality in the Godhead since it is the word that is used for the one true God as well as for the many false gods.
Plural Verbs Used With Elohim
Virtually all Hebrew scholars do recognize that the word Elohim, as it stands by itself, is a plural noun. Nevertheless, they wish to deny that it allows for any plurality in the Godhead whatsoever. Their line of reasoning usually goes like this: When "Elohim" is used of the true God, it is followed by a singular verb; when it is used of false gods, it is followed by the plural verb. Rabbi Greenberg states it as follows:
"But, in fact, the verb used in the opening verse of Genesis is "bara," which means "he created" - singular. One need not be too profound a student of Hebrew to understand that the opening verse of Genesis clearly speaks of a singular God."
The point made, of course, is generally true because the Bible does teach that God is only one God and, therefore, the general pattern is to have the plural noun followed by the singular verb when it speaks of the one true God. However, there are places where the word is used of the true God and yet it is followed by a plural verb:
Genesis 20:13: And it came to pass, when God (Elohim) caused me to wander (Literally: THEY caused me to wander) from my father's house ...
Genesis 35:7: ... because there God (Elohim) appeared to him ... (Literally: THEY appeared to him.)
2 Samuel 7:23: ... God (Elohim) went ... (Literally: THEY went.)
Psalm 58 Surely He is God who judges ... (Literally: THEY judge.)
The Name Eloah
If the plural form Elohim was the only form available for a reference to God, then conceivably the argument might be made that the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures had no other alternative but to use the word Elohim for both the one true God and the many false gods. However, the singular form for Elohim (Eloah) exists and is used in such passages as Deuteronomy 32:15-17 and Habakkuk 3:3. This singular form could easily have been used consistently. Yet it is only used 250 times, while the plural form is used 2,500 times. The far greater use of the plural form again turns the argument in favor of plurality in the Godhead rather than against it.
Plural Pronouns
Another case in point regarding Hebrew grammar is that often when God speaks of himself, he clearly uses the plural pronoun:
Genesis 1:26: Then God (Elohim) said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ..."
He could hardly have made reference to angels since man was created in the image of God and not of angels. The Midrash Rabbah on Genesis recognizes the strength of this passage and comments as follows:
Rabbi Samuel Bar Hanman in the name of Rabbi Jonathan said, that at the time when Moses wrote the Torah, writing a portion of it daily, when he came to the verse which says, "And Elohim said, let us make man in our image after our likeness," Moses said, "Master of the universe, why do you give here with an excuse to the sectarians (who believe in the Tri-unity of God)" God answered Moses, "You write and whoever wants to err, let him err." (Midrash Rabbah on Genesis 1:26 [New York NOP Press, N.D.])
It is obvious that the Midrash Rabbah is simply trying to get around the problem and fails to answer adequately why God refers to himself in the plural.
The use of the plural pronoun can also be seen In the following:
Genesis 3:22: Then the LORD God (YHVH Elohim) said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us''
Genesis 11:7: "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language.''
Isaiah 6:8: Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?"
This last passage would appear contradictory with the singular "I" and the plural "us'' except as viewed as a plurality (us) in a unity (I).
Plural Descriptions of God
Another point that also comes out of Hebrew is the fact that often nouns and adjectives used in speaking of God are plural. Some examples are as follows:
Ecclesiastes 12:1: Remember now your Creator ... (Literally: CREATORS.)
Psalm 149:2: Let Israel rejoice in their Maker. (Literally: MAKERS.)
Joshua 24:19: ... holy God ... (Literally: HOLY GODS.)
Isaiah 54:5: For your Maker is your husband. (Literally: MAKERS, HUSBANDS.)
Everything we have said so far rests firmly on the Hebrew language of the Scriptures. If we are to base our theology on the Scriptures alone, we have to say that on the one hand they affirm God's unity, while at the same time they tend towards the concept of a compound unity allowing for a plurality in the Godhead.
The Shema
Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
Deuteronomy 6:4, known as the SHEMA, has always been Israel's great confession. It is this verse more than any other that is used to affirm the fact that God is one and is often used to contradict the concept of plurality in the Godhead. But is it a valid use of this verse?
On the one hand it should be noted that the very words "our God" are in the plural in the Hebrew text and literally mean "our Gods." However, the main argument lies in the word "one," which is the Hebrew word, ECHAD. A glance through the Hebrew text where the word is used elsewhere can quickly show that the word echad does not mean an absolute "one" but a compound "one."
For instance, in Genesis 1:5 the combination of evening and morning comprise one (echad) day. In Genesis 2:24 a man and a woman come together in marriage and the two "shall become one (echad) flesh." In Ezra 2:64 we are told that the whole assembly was as one (echad), though, of course, it was composed of numerous people. Ezekiel 37:17 provides a rather striking example where two sticks are combined to become one (echad). Thus, use of the word echad in Scripture shows it to be a compound and not an absolute unity.
There is a Hebrew word that does mean an absolute unity and that is YACHID, which is found in many Scripture passages, (Genesis 22:2,12; Judges 11:34; Psalm 22:21: 25:16; Proverbs 4:3; Jeremiah 6:26; Amos 8:10; Zechariah 12:10) the emphasis being on the meaning of "only." If Moses intended to teach God's absolute oneness as over against a compound unity, this would have been a far more appropriate word. In fact, Maimonides noted the strength of "yachid' and chose to use that word in his "Thirteen Articles of Faith'' in place of echad. However, Deuteronomy 6:4 (the Shema) does not use "yachid" in reference to God.
GOD IS AT LEAST TWO
Elohim and YHVH Applied to Two Personalities
As if to make the case for plurality even stronger. there are situations in the Hebrew Scriptures where the term Elohim is applied to two personalities in the same verse. One example is Psalm 45:6-7:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions."
It should be noted that the first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God's God has anointed him with the oil of gladness.
A second example is Hosea 1:7:
"Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen."
The speaker is Elohim who says he will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHVH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.
Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God. One example is Genesis 19:24:
"Then he LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from the LORD out of the heavens."
Clearly we have YHVH number one raining fire and brimstone from a second YHVH who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.
A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:
"For thus says the LORD of hosts: "He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me."
Again, we have one YHVH sending another YHVH to perform a specific task.
The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton (1) and wrote:
"Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit ." (Zohar, Vol III, 288; Vol II, 43, Hebrew editions. (See also Sonclno Press edition, Vol III, 134.)
GOD IS THREE
How Many Persons are There?
If the Hebrew Scriptures truly do point to plurality, the question arises, how many personalities exist in the Godhead? We have already seen the names of God applied to at least two different personalities. Going through the Hebrew Scriptures we find that three, and only three, distinct personalities are ever considered divine.
1. First, there are the numerous times when there is a reference to the Lord YHVH. This usage is so frequent that there is no need to devote space to it.
2. A second personality is referred to as the Angel of YHVH. This individual is always considered distinct from all other angels and is unique. In almost every passage where he is found he is referred to as both the Angel of YHVH and YHVH himself. For instance in Genesis 16:7 he is referred to as the Angel of YHVH, but then in 16:13 as YHVH himself. In Genesis 22:11 he is the Angel of YHVH, but God himself in 22:12. Other examples could be given. (2)
A very interesting passage is Exodus 23:20-23 where this angel has the power to pardon sin because God's own name YHVH is in him, and, therefore, he is to be obeyed without question. This can hardly be said of any ordinary angel. But the very fact that God's own name is in this angel shows his divine status.
3. A third major personality that comes through is the Spirit of God, often referred to simply as the Ruach Ha-kodesh. There are a good number of references to the Spirit of God among which are Genesis 1:2; 6:3; Job 33:4; Psalm 51:11; 139:7; Isaiah 11:2; 63:10,14. The Holy Spirit cannot be a mere emanation because he has all the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion and will) and is considered divine.
So then, from various sections of the Hebrew Scriptures there is a clear showing that three personalities are referred to as divine and as being God: the Lord YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Spirit of God.
The Three Personalities in the Same Passage
In the Hebrew Scriptures you will also find all three personalities of the Godhead referred to in single passages. Two examples are Isaiah 48:12-16 and 63:7-14.
Because of the significance of the first passage, it will be quoted:
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together. All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent Me."
It should be noted that the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. It is clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of "I" and "me" and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities. He distinguishes himself from the Lord YHVH and then from the Spirit of God. Here is the Tri-unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.
In the second passage, there is a reflection back to the time of the Exodus where all three personalities were present and active. The Lord YHVH is referred to in verse seven, the Angel of YHVH in verse nine and the Spirit of God in verses 10, 11 and 14. While often throughout the Hebrew Scriptures God refers to himself as being the one solely responsible for Israel's redemption from Egypt, in this passage three personalities are given credit for it. Yet no contradiction is seen since all three comprise the unity of the one Godhead.
Conclusion
The teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures, then is that there is a plurality of the Godhead. The first person is consistently called YHVH, while the second person is given the names of YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Servant of YHVH. Consistently and without fail, the second person is sent by the first person. The third person is referred to as the Spirit of YHVH or the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. He, too, is sent by the first person but is continually related to the ministry of the second person.
If the concept of the Tri-unity of God is not Jewish according to modern rabbis, then neither are the Hebrew Scriptures. Jewish Christians cannot be accused of having slipped into paganism when they hold to the fact that Jesus is the divine Son of God. He is the same one of whom Moses wrote when the Lord said:
"Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off'' (Exodus 23:20-23).
New Testament Light
In keeping with the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament clearly recognizes that there are three persons in the Godhead, although it becomes quite a bit more specific. The first person is called the Father while the second person is called the Son. The New Testament answers the question of Proverbs 30:4: "What is His name, and what is His Son's name If you know?'' His Son's name is Yeshua (Jesus). In accordance with the Hebrew Scriptures, he is sent by God to be the Messiah, but this time as a man instead of as an angel.
Furthermore, he is sent for a specific purpose: to die for our sins. In essence, what happened is that God became a man (not that man became God) in order to accomplish the work of atonement.
The New Testament calls the third person of the Godhead the Holy Spirit. Throughout the New Testament He is related to the work of the second person, in keeping with the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures. We see, then, that there is a continuous body of teaching in both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament relating to the Tri-unity of God.
(1) "Personal Name of God of Israel," written in Hebrew Bible with the four consonants YHWH. Pronunciation of name has been avoided since at least 3rd c. B.C.E.; initial substitute was "Adonai" ("the Lord"), itself later replaced by "ha-Shem" (the Name). The name Jehovah is a hybrid misreading of the original Hebrew letters with the vowels of "Adonai." Encyclopedia Dictionary of Judaica, 593.
2) In Genesis 31 he is the Angel of God in verse 11, but then he is the God of Bethel in verse 13. In Exodus 3 he is the Angel of YHVH in verse two and he is both YHVH and God in verse four. In Judges 6 he is the Angel of YHVH in verses 11,12, 20 and 21, but is YHVH himself in verses 14, 16, 22 and 23. Then in Judges 13:3 and 21 he is the Angel of YHVH but is referred to as God himself in verse 22.
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Isaiah 9:6
New International Version (NIV)
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Unfortunately the old testament uses the word "god" quite liberally - ex. Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'you are gods', you are all sons of the Most High" and again in Isaiah 9:6 example you just gave. Even if "mighty god" in Isaiah 9:6 meant something different than Psalm 82:6, the verse does not say that Jesus will be God, but that "he will be called" mighty god, among other names such as prince of peace, everlasting father, etc.
I think it's pretty weak that from the whole bible that's the best example there is to to try to claim that Jesus was God?
No. In this thread alone I have provided an overwhelming amount of Biblical material, both Old and New Testaments, that supports the deity of Jesus Christ, along with Jewish Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum's great article. I am still waiting for you to address the rest of the material I have posted so that I can address your posts, of which I have already seen mistakes on your part.
No. In this thread alone I have provided an overwhelming amount of Biblical material, both Old and New Testaments, that supports the deity of Jesus Christ, along with Jewish Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum's great article. I am still waiting for you to address the rest of the material I have posted so that I can address your posts, of which I have already seen mistakes on your part.
Unfortunately the old testament uses the word "god" quite liberally - ex. Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'you are gods', you are all sons of the Most High" and again in Isaiah 9:6 example you just gave. Even if "mighty god" in Isaiah 9:6 meant something different than Psalm 82:6, the verse does not say that Jesus will be God, but that "he will be called" mighty god, among other names such as prince of peace, everlasting father, etc.Here is the whole of Pslam 82:
I think it's pretty weak that from the whole bible that's the best example there is to to try to claim that Jesus was God?
I haven't read the article you pasted and I can't promise I will as I rarely read lengthy copy-pasted material unless it's something I find very intriguing.
And I have no idea what "overwhelming amount of Biblical material supporting the deity of Jesus Christ" you're referring to, I haven't found any such evidence in this thread. I just noticed your post with the verse from Isaiah and I responded showing that's no evidence of the Bible calling Jesus God.
And what are you waiting for me to address? Why am I always the last to know these things lol.
Will do when I have time, and on the one condition that you also do the same when I subsequently post a multitude of verses in this thread which show that Jesus denied being God and clarified that he was a man. Let me know.
Will respond to the others later, out of time for now.
Here is the whole of Pslam 82:
Psalm 82
A psalm of Asaph.
1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:
2 “How long will you[a] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.
In John 10:34 Christ directly quotes Pslam 82:6 when discussing with the Pharisees his own claims of divinity:
John 10
The Good Shepherd and His Sheep
10 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.
7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”
19 The Jews who heard these words were again divided. 20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”
21 But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
Further Conflict Over Jesus’ Claims
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
40 Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. There he stayed, 41 and many people came to him. They said, “Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true.” 42 And in that place many believed in Jesus.
It's that all important context that makes the difference. ;)
The article is by a Jew who knows Hebrew, to shut you guys up who keep saying I don't know what I'm talking about simply because I don't know Hebrew. He addresses one of your misguided arguments about the word "LORD" in one of the verses that I posted earlier.
And here is what you said you'd do. Your words, not mine. I'm just waiting. That's all.
Ahh, thanks for reminding me. I haven't logged on much lately and didn't recall those posts, will try to address them during the holidays.
Still not reading your article unless you can summarize its main point in your own words.
Ye ole classic sidestep....aka, the "Muslim Shuffle" LOL!! "Hah-Cha-Cha!! Hello my baby, hello my honey......"
Has nothing to do with being Muslim. Just like you replied once to a video which Ahmed posted saying you're not going to spend the time viewing it. Does that make it a "Christian Shuffle" lol? I only have a given amount of time in a day for reading and posting online, so I base what I read on what interests me and the amount of time I have, so when something is condensed I'm much more inclined to read it due to the lack of time involved.
I can start posting links to lengthy pro-Islam articles and saying "aha! Gotcha! What's your response?!" and you and loco would likely not try to address it either.
The difference was ahmed's video was a random posting, not part of a discussion....he said I needed to make time to watch it. At that time I couldn't, but I later went back and watched it and spoke to ahmed about it.
loco's article was directly related to and complete justification for the discussion at hand. Refusal to read copy and pasted material that fully validates a claim (because it's not in the poster's own words) has been a trademark move established by ahmed and adopted by you.....our Muslim bretheren. Hence, the "Muslim Shuffle".
Oh, I posted the full chapters because ahmed once accussed me of taking verses out of context.....I hadn't done anything of the sort, but agreed to post the full chapters during discussions to prevent such accusation. I agreed to do so, ahmed did not; regardless, I'm just holding up my end of the bargain.
Well what's funny is they found some Jew dude who speaks Hebrew and I don't get where and how they get 'validity' of any of their claims, I read the article it still does not advocate the trinity. They try to argue for 'multiplicity of God' and how even "Jehova" and Elohim are 'two personalities' so the 'possibility' of multiple 'godheads' or whatever he is not really arguing for them.
Contrary to orthodox Jewish understanding and literal hebrew understanding that the plurals are out of respect, just like in arabic and just like in aramaic.. and if i must mention just like in modern french. Royal plurals.
The bottom line is just as in deuteronomy hear oh israel your lord God is one. Jesus says in the new testatment when asked about the MOST important commandment.. hear oh israel OUR Lord God is ONE.
You seem to have found that 'lol' funny mentioning Deut.. but Jesus says the same thing.
You see... we can stick to simple facts... you on the other hand need ten million pages to justify yourself.. because no matter how much the trinity lie is repeated, it's still a lie. Saying God is ONE is the truth and far simpler, doesn't take much argumentation.
I do not mean to offend any christains but please watch this vid.
many Jews know Allah is GOD. they ADMIT the muslims worship THE GOD OF ABRAHAM! and that christains do not! what people fail to understand is that ALLAH is god! jesus is a prophet. Allah is the God of Abraham.
this one two:
Still trying to bait the christians eh achmutt.
Allah is another name for satan. Its no suprise thqt allah and his ilk the muslim sheep are the most despised people on earth. Their lands are being taken. They are being rooted out if their holes like roaches exposed to the light.
Truebb93 is not achmed stefano. He's pulled this crap before in his islam defense mode.
cant you count?
Ahmed= Ahmed
= Bigbobs
Truebb93=ME
Sherief=sherief
stingray=stingray
thats 5 DIFFRENT guys. not gimmicks.
infact YOU ARE A GIMMICK. Stefano is a gimmick of someone else whos too much of a punk to get onto their real account. for a coward gimmick Stefano aka Stephanie
Shut it bober. Remember when you pretended to be a jordanian called mamood or some shit to defend your nasser obsession? Since your real name was exposed you've resorted to a separate accounts to start attacks.
You've been playing this anti west pro west game for awhile with your muslim buddies. Did you add this truebb account to team nasser yet?
You wanna play? lets play.
As I've already restated a few times, I was a lurker on here, registered out of curiosity to find out who this "GH15" fella was, then lurked around without posting much, then saw a bunch of ignorant posts attacking Islam and Muslims. Responded. Have been responding since.
So you're stefano ey? What a sad guy.
tyr=stefano aka bitch boy.
Okay what's the point of you copy pasting the exact same thing you already did with that ficticious non realistic photo? It's already been debated and refuted and put to rest.
Mary was chased down, accused, named names etc... for being an alleged adulteress. Jewish law condemns the daughter of a priest to be killed by burning, put to death. Etc.. As I must repeat myself, have you not read what the Talmud says about Jesus and Mary (peace be upon them both)
Do you think your fairy tale thinking has any connection to the reality of the Jews at the time? Nothing.
Just as christmas has nothing to do with Jesus and december 25th is a ficticious date that has nothin to do with when Jesus was actually burn (more likely around july-august, summer time) as according to scholars both of Christianity and Islam.
No matter how many times you repeat it does not make it true.
If you werer seeking the truth you would have watched the videos of a scholar of the bible who knows a hell of a lot more than you and actually touched and saw the actual parchments of the new testament to your displeasure and knows the fabrications and manipulations to the dot.
The trinitarianism and the worship of a human being -- Jesus the prophet of Nazareth -- came about through time, it did not originate in the teachings or sayings of Jesus (peace be upon him) who like all past prophets emphasized to worship God only and that we all depend on God, that there is only one God, etc...
Please dispense with your meltdownachmutt. Islam rides off chrisitianity to give it legitimacy. No matter how many times you try to refute that fact you fail.
On the subject of fairy tales muhamhamed climed to have spoken to god in a cave. That should be taken as factual? The koran was cobbled together using other religions as its basis. Just becuase you are too stupid to see that is no one elses fault but your own.
All you have is your biased websites and not one iota of facts to back up your arguements.
You just owned yourself real bad. I am glad that your ignorance and anger is self explanatory.
Unlike yourself with YOUR biased and ignorant lack of knowledge of islam that you gather from idiot websites that slander and lie about Islam. I don't need a website. I learned about Islam from Islam.. wait what? How about reading the qur'an? Reading the original sources teaching islam?
You're a fool.
lol oh the irony of owning yourself and not realizing it :)
lol oh the irony of owning yourself and not realizing it :)
Thats funny because that statement applies to you. Fits to a T.
Try rereading all your posts and you'll see how many times you were destroyed in every statement you made by everyone you debated with. Then again you've lied so many times in the attempt to cover up the posion your religion is that i wonder if you'd ever see the truth. Then again your common sense guage is broken so your idiocy may not be as readily transparent to you.
Thats ok.
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
Stefano owned himself
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! LOOK WHOS TALKING!
(http://www.goenglish.com/GoEnglish_com_ThePotCallingTheKettleBlack.gif)
Hmm. So ypu're saying that your achmutt account is equally ludicrous as i am? Brilliant analogy einstein.
Isaiah 9:6
New International Version (NIV)
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=448596.0;attach=496743;image)
John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:9-14
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
No, thats not what I am saying. I just found it funny a person like yourself can dare say someone elses common sense gauge is broken.
your losing this battle 8) keep it up, your running out of steam :D you cant win and you know it ;)
I think we need some moderatoin in this section. Where are the so called mods? This tool stefano is just trolling throwing insults and ugly demeanor. He has no interest in religious discussion or anything of the sorts.Oh you're right ahmed, we do need some clean up on this board. I'll start cleaning up the threads and ugly demeanor shortly.
And being a gimmick this should be put to a stop. His stupendous claims of others being gimmicks/double accounts should be exposed for the fact that he is someone's gimmick on here. Mods can certainly verify IP addresses of who is who.
I think we need some moderatoin in this section. Where are the so called mods? This tool stefano is just trolling throwing insults and ugly demeanor. He has no interest in religious discussion or anything of the sorts.
And being a gimmick this should be put to a stop. His stupendous claims of others being gimmicks/double accounts should be exposed for the fact that he is someone's gimmick on here. Mods can certainly verify IP addresses of who is who.
Stefano is someones gimmick. who then accuses me of being a gimmick because he himself is a big enough loser to go around on diffrent accounts, so he thinks everyone else is too. He claims to be atheist yet alwas defends christians. makes you go hmmmm....
If I'm off from work the rest of this week and the majority of next....this board will be cleaned up a bit during that time. ;)
Thanks. Its time to bring in a civilized debate not just one religion trying to claim superiority.
I am ready for a civilized debate. But your a scumbag, you go around slandering islam , the things you have said are purely disgusting and now you come here pretending like its the "muslim bullies" who are attacking you. If your ready for a CIVILIZED DEBATE then Im ready anytime :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
Christians believe in one God. Christians worship one God.
Watch this man. the question isnt wither christianity is monotheistic or not, but rather MODERN christians do not follow the orders of GOD. Muslim and Jews pray in identical ways, the old christians(in jesus time) did the same, yet almost NO chrsitians do so today, infact most dont even know about it! I dont want to offend but the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!
If God = "I am" then Jesus' quote becomes "before Abraham was born, God!”
This definitely is far from Jesus claiming to be God.
Jesus is claiming to be God in John 8:58, the same 'I AM' that spoke to Moses in Exodus 3:14, and the Jews understood this very well. That is why "At this, they picked up stones to stone him" - John 8:59
The early jews who were the followers of Jesus aka the early true christians that were killed off by the likes of the church for example because they were deemed heretics for not accepting the trinity.
Watch this man. the question isnt wither christianity is monotheistic or not, but rather MODERN christians do not follow the orders of GOD. Muslim and Jews pray in identical ways, the old christians(in jesus time) did the same, yet almost NO chrsitians do so today, infact most dont even know about it! I dont want to offend but the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!
Because they knew he was the messiah and the followed the law as Jesus commanded and did as well.
According to churches that consider ecumenical council decisions final, trinitarianism was infallibly defined at the First Ecumenical Council (the Council of Nicaea) in 325 A.D.
^^ Davis, SJ, Leo Donald (1990). The First Seven Ecumenical Councils (325-787): Their History and Theology (Theology and Life Series 21). Collegeville, MN: Michael Glazier/Liturgical Press. p. 68. ISBN 978-0-8146-5616-7.
Church and state in Europe suppressed nontrinitarian belief as heresy from the 4th to 18th century.
The early Christians had no idea what you guys are ranting on about. They worshiped God alone, they followed Jesus (pbuh). The trinity is a later invention and all the other doctrines you are trying to propagate that justify to you the worship of a man.
There are a few things people must understand before hand to understand the whole picture
the Word ALLAH means GOD. Many people think it means somthing else, its simply not true. when a Muslim person say "ya allah" it means "oh god". Only with this in mind can you move on to understand the rest. Allah simply means GOD.
I assume you guys havent read the Bibile in its orginal language? If you have you would see JESUS refers to GOD as ALLAH(in a slighty diffrent way of pronoucation, hence why I also post the video of the jewish guy explaining what ALLAH means.)
I have to go but will be back to explain more, but i would suggest watching this.
the word MUSLIM means subbmission to GOD, thats all it means, One who submits to GOD
Listen to what this guy says. he says the prostration is fom early chrsitan practices
Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.
Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.
1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
According to churches that consider ecumenical council decisions final, trinitarianism was infallibly defined at the First Ecumenical Council (the Council of Nicaea) in 325 A.D.
^^ Davis, SJ, Leo Donald (1990). The First Seven Ecumenical Councils (325-787): Their History and Theology (Theology and Life Series 21). Collegeville, MN: Michael Glazier/Liturgical Press. p. 68. ISBN 978-0-8146-5616-7.
Church and state in Europe suppressed nontrinitarian belief as heresy from the 4th to 18th century.
The early Christians had no idea what you guys are ranting on about. They worshiped God alone, they followed Jesus (pbuh). The trinity is a later invention and all the other doctrines you are trying to propagate that justify to you the worship of a man.
Within biblical scripture we find descriptions of folks kneeling, standing with hands lifted, standing without hands lifted, bowing and prostrating themselves in prayer. Those prostrating themselves such as Abraham, Job and even Christ were doing so under extreme stress. Christ fell prostrate in the garden due to the weight of mankind's sin upon him. Nowhere in biblical scripture are believers commanded to remain prostrate or in any specific position while in prayer. I see no problem in the act of prostration in prayer, but it's not commanded. Many times I've taken a knee(s) in prayer or have had hands held high or been bent over in prayer.
What of those believers unable to prostrate themselves in prayer, but pray earnestly nonetheless. Are their prayers not truly prayers because of their inability to prostrate themselves? Are honesty, humility and content less important than remaining prostrate?
In Prayer honestly and sincerity is first, without with there is no prayer. 2nd prostrating is the most imporant part of prayer and the action which brings one closest to God, now if a man cannot prostrate he should do what he can, . if your healthy do the full prayer, if injured or sick do as much as you can sitting down or lying down, if completely unable to move, then move your eyes up and down. do what ever you can. prostration is very important.Prostration is an element of prayer in Islam, but it is not a commandment in biblical scripture. The content of prayer is specified in scripture, but specific body positioning or gyrations are a man made convention most specifically attributed to Islam. The description of early Jews and Christians falling prostrate in prayer was due to extreme stress or being overcome by the presence of God....it wasn't a divine mandate.
3:39-4:47(go to 6:00 if you got the time)
take a look bro.
Prostration is an element of prayer in Islam, but it is not a commandment in biblical scripture. The content of prayer is specified in scripture, but specific body positioning or gyrations are a man made convention most specifically attributed to Islam. The description of early Jews and Christians falling prostrate in prayer was due to extreme stress or being overcome by the presence of God....it wasn't a divine mandate.
man of steel i have a question,Do you know why Jesus(pbuh) was put upon the cross?Christ's crucifixion was outlined in OT prophecy (his death was of divine origin), the Sanhedrin claimed Christ broke Mosaic law, the Sanhedrin was afraid Christ was creating an uprising in the surrounding community (and were limiting their authority), the Sanhedrin was upset because Christ claimed to be God (blasphemy in essence).
but its like this man, the Jews were commanded to do it, muslims are commanded to do it. Chrisitans believe in Moses right? how how does the act of prostration dissapear?
Jews=prostrate
early follows of jesus=prostrate
modern christians=dont
muslims=prostrate
these religions all come from the same origin right? how did prostration become lost? also why are their so many diffrent versions of the bible? the true word of God dosent have versions I am i right?
my point is Paul came in and changed things. many things modern christians do is becuase of none-other then Paul, Jesus himself never said to do it, or other things Jesus said Do it but modern christians dont becuase of changes that happend overtime.
by the way i just wanted to say im glad we can have a respectful civil disscussion bro :)
man of steel i have a question,Do you know why Jesus(pbuh) was put upon the cross?Yes, to die for our sins ;) 8)
Is this some kind of joke? You deleted the threads which were islamic lectures to teach people about islam.
Anyone who wants to find out about other religions can do their own research.
This is a discussion forum not video viewing site.
Videos don't always present the truth since the poster can selectively choose videos that represent HIS point of view which may not be THE truth but rather HIS interpretation of what the truth is.
Is this some kind of joke? You deleted the threads which were islamic lectures to teach people about islam.
Yes, to die for our sins ;) 8)
How dare you guys battle it out without me ;D
Hey MOS get me in this fight, lol :D
No. These men in the videos have been studying Islam, Judism and Christianity for 10,20,30 even 40 years! Some of these men have been every religion known to man! they have seen, heard, read it all! they are the most qulified to talk about them.
also its much eaiser to get your point across using videos, If i want to describe you the story of jesus is it eaiser for me to write and essay on here? that would take 20 minutes? or just link a vid an say "skip to 4:00-6:30"?
They belong to one specific religion so clearly they wouldnt be biased right? Seen, heard and read it all? ::)
The point is this is a discussion forum so you should be able to summarize the key points not ramble on or use slanted vids to make your point. Maybe you lack the intelligence to put it in your words. That would make sense.
now there is a separste section where you can post all your isamic propaganda and slanted views without littering the entire board with this rubbbish.
TrueBB93, do you have anything to offer like your own ideas, beliefs, studies, etc., or do you just post videos? Is your knowledge and belief based on YouTube?
As you can see by all the Bible verses that I posted, your video above lied about "the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!"
Don't believe everything you see on YouTube.
haha, good to have you Onetime, grab a sword and shield and jump into the arena, lol this section really has been a battle zone!;D
but all jokes aside, respectful civil debate is alwas good.
and I strongly disagree with the underlined :D but im sure you expected that ;)
Watch this man. the question isnt wither christianity is monotheistic or not, but rather MODERN christians do not follow the orders of GOD. Muslim and Jews pray in identical ways, the old christians(in jesus time) did the same, yet almost NO chrsitians do so today, infact most dont even know about it! I dont want to offend but the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!
Genesis 1:26
New International Version (NIV)
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
Ahmed already addressed this when describing the royal plural.
Genesis 18:1
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Genesis 18:22
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.
Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.
Honestly I'm not sure why you pasted these excerpts, but if it was to suggest that "Lord" = "God" then refer 1 Peter 3:6 where Sarah calls Abraham Lord. Therefore, if you believe Lord = God then Abraham too is God. The word Lord is simply a title of authority, ever hear of "Lord Vader"? :)
See also 1 Cornithians 8:6 "yet for us there is only one God, the father, and one Lord Jesus Christ." This verse clearly differentiates the words God and Lord from each other.
Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
John 8:58-59
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
If God = "I am" then Jesus' quote becomes "before Abraham was born, God!”
This definitely is far from Jesus claiming to be God.
John 10:30-33
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
Someitmes to show solidarity with my wife I say "My wife and I are one." This does not mean we are literally one being. But I'm guessing you're also thinking that the fact the opponents started throwing stones on Jesus and saying "because you, a mere man, claim to be God" is evidence. However, you conveniently skipped the verses before and after this excerpt. Looking before, verse 24 shows that the Jews were asking him if he is the Christ (not asking him if he was God), to which he confirmed that he is (note Christ does not equal God because the title is used for other humans (Isaiah 45:1, Cyrus of Persian is called God's Christ, just one example). So they ask Jesus if he is Christ and he replies Yes, then they stone him and accuse him of claiming to be God. In response (in verse 34) "Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, "I have said you are gods?" If he called them "gods" to whom the word of God came - and the scripture cannot be broken - what about one whom the Father setapart as his very own and sent into the world. Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, "I am God's Son?" So here Jesus explains that even if he had said something which they misinterpreted to mean that Jesus is claiming to be God (ex. confirming that he is Christ), they should realise that some human beings were called "gods" in the Bible (ex. Psalms 82:6-8) which shows God has honoured some human beings by calling them "gods." This is just a figurative expression, but Jesus was reminding the Jews who were stoning him so that they should understand that even if he says something that they take as him claiming to be god, they should take it as a figurative expression.
John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
But in John 5:37 Jesus clearly said that no one has seen God at any time. 1 John 4:12 also says that no one has ever seen God. If Jesus was God, then whoever has seen Jesus would have seen God. The verses above you posted, saying "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" mean that by knowing Jesus, one gets to know God, since Jesus taught about God.
man of steel i have a question,Do you know why Jesus(pbuh) was put upon the cross?
Do you believe the Bible to be word-for-word from God?YES. KJV
Do you believe the Bible to be word-for-word from God?
I believe the bible is absolutely inspired by God.....the bible is the living word of God. Is it word-for-word from God? No, that's too strong a statement to claim. That would mean that every word was written by God and handed to man in some type of permanent, printed form by God with no intermediaries or helpers involved whatsoever in the collecting, communicating, documenting or transcribing process. In essence, a final work would have to be handed by God to man with no intervention on part of man for it to be considered word-for-word from God thereby containing no other possible influence. I simply can't make that claim. The bible had multiple authors, all fully inspired by God which allowed them to breathe divine life into the scriptures despite each author writing in their own style yet creating a harmonious collection of books.I could be wrong but I don`t think that is what he meant but if he did, just to clarify my post, I hold the same view MOS does. Now the bottom line is; sense it is inspired by God, it has no errors. Everything written within is the truth.
I could be wrong but I don`t think that is what he meant but if he did, just to clarify my post, I hold the same view MOS does. Now the bottom line is; sense it is inspired by God, it has no errors. Everything written within is the truth.
everything is inspired by god, if god exists.Bro that is not what is meant by ``inspired by God``. The author that wrote that verse above in second Timothy did not intend that verse to mean what you wrote. The discussion at hand has nothing to do with what is written in your post.
so obviously the bible is" inspired" by god.
so was the koran, scientology, darwins the origin of species. and mein kampf too.
but the bible contains wisdom! the bible makes yoru heart set on fire and eyes open wide! surely this means it is divine and to be taken as the word of god.
but the thing is.. alot of stuff can set your heart on fire and make your eyes open wide. lots of things can bring you closer to god.
a touching movie, a beautiful sunset, the hug of a loved one. etc.
so some dudes from way back in the day (a time when people were more in touch with nature) wrote some fables, tried their best to make them wise and feel like truth so that when people would read them they would come closer to god, and then they went and actually told people that their fables were sent from god and passed them off as 'the bible".
and now billions of people have spent their life thinking that because the bible has wisdom and sets their heart on fire and helps bring them closer to god, that its really sent directly from god and to be taken literally as "his" word.
Do you believe the Bible to be word-for-word from God?
Watch this man. the question isnt wither christianity is monotheistic or not, but rather MODERN christians do not follow the orders of GOD. Muslim and Jews pray in identical ways, the old christians(in jesus time) did the same, yet almost NO chrsitians do so today, infact most dont even know about it! I dont want to offend but the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!
^You can only fool other ignorant and uneducated people by repeating the same non-sense over and over again.
Historical facts prove that the trinity is a made up belief after Jesus (pbuh). You just don't want your audience to know that.
I already tore apart your selective quotations and posted totally opposing verses that destroy the trinity in every shape and form. I just stopped caring of doing it over and over again since you are just copy pasting the exact same thing yourself thinking some other people will not know what those verses are or what those opposing verses that I posted were, etc... etc... It gets lame.
Why post videos? Because they get the point across as well. People who just might be more qualified than you or I, might know more than you or I, might have qualifications more than you and I. Just as truebb93 said, scholars of islam and christianity who have touched, smelt and felt the actual parchments, speak konic greek, hebrew, arabic, latin, etc... amongst various other qualifications. Who know the history intimately; such as in the case of the development and formation of trinitarianism.
The fact is. The trinity did not exist, was not thought by Jesus, it was something formulated and codified hundreds of years after Jesus. It is not the revealed word of God. This is the fact you will not accept as it ruins any of your man worshipping.
Likewise with the bible, the very same story you may or might quote, will be contradicted in other book of the bible. It has little to no credibility thus and the stories are combined to get things across.
That scholar of the bible knows how the bible was formed, changed, manipulated and that's why i posted his videos as he illustrates the various contradictions and manipulations dead on. To showcase as well how the belief in the trinity was developed over time and how ideas were implemented over time to justify this new found doctrine.
Matthew 3:16-17
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.
17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Well if you believe in your book and he believes in his then really there is absolutely no point to even debating this issue because to be convinced of anything is admit that your book is wrong and no is going to do that.
If you want I can get you verses from the Quran that completely destroy the idea of Jesus beingthe son of God, do you want that? Im sure you dont becuase you say "i believe in the Bibile not the Quran", now flip that arugment backwards, and your posting verses from a book, which has been historically documented to be edited, isnt going to do anything except weaken your aruguement and show your weakness.
Well if you believe in your book and he believes in his then really there is absolutely no point to even debating this issue because to be convinced of anything is admit that your book is wrong and no is going to do that.
Do you believe the Bible to be word-for-word from God?
Watch this man. the question isnt wither christianity is monotheistic or not, but rather MODERN christians do not follow the orders of GOD. Muslim and Jews pray in identical ways, the old christians(in jesus time) did the same, yet almost NO chrsitians do so today, infact most dont even know about it! I dont want to offend but the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!
you mean exactly what i said in the other thread :D?Hey, what a miracle we agree on something :D
If you want I can get you verses from the Quran that completely destroy the idea of Jesus beingthe son of God, do you want that? Im sure you dont becuase you say "i believe in the Bibile not the Quran", now flip that arugment backwards, and your posting verses from a book, which has been historically documented to be edited, isnt going to do anything except weaken your aruguement and show your weakness.
One of the more common and easily understood ways of explaining this is to use the sun. It is a heavenly body that we can see. It produces light. And it produces heat.
Three distinct traits from one source.
Personally I don't worry about it.
lol i've heard every innovated explanation of christians referencing to the innovated false belief and doctrine of the trinity?
You heard the gas, liquid and solid one? Egg white and yolk? Family? Father, mother, child? Lmao.
Yet in the first two commandments what does God say through Moses?
Nothing resembles God in the heavens, in the water, in the earth?
Yet here you are foolishly comparing GOD THE ALMIGHTY, our CREATOR, to the creation.
Oh I don't know somewhere in Exodus:
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Yet here you are making an idol of a human being.. or simply put, you are comparing all sorts of creation to God the creator.
Water molecules? lol.. the sun? Eggs? Family unit? Eh... I forget the other creative examples.
So now you're a sun worshipper?
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSmgY1Hi8q52k1fo6WQaKLwq8NCYXqkqlOG0czteuSzdqp0MHFyhWVRvCiU)
Or are you an egg worshipper?
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ-KHlKwek2H4ysCHkko4XHsuy9EnEF5lh9hywlfUj9TEwEj6uESnwt1idm5g)
Or how about an apple?
(http://catholicicing.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/how-is-an-apple-like-the-trinity-w.jpg)
Are you an apple worshipper? What if we got more seeds in that apple lol
I am actually laughing really hard looking at this...
(http://www.harvestwaterlooregion.ca/Content/10327/trinity.png)
Seriously.. with all due respect you have to be demented to believe in this... Which is it?
I like to stick to the historical facts which is... well guess what? The trinity was invented hundreds of years after Jesus.
You guys said the 'councils dont matter' but yes they do matter, because they are the ones that decided what it IS to be a christian WHO Jesus was, who God is, etc... based on their whims.
Look, stupid. You have no idea what I believe. Here, let me tell you what I believe about your filthy faith. Mohammed was a lover of swine, other men's women and dong.
By the way that is a play on words from the phrase, "Wine, women and song".
I am just tired of your crap so I am giving some back to you in the form of a written beating. Stupid. And no my little whiner, I am not "angry" with you.
Look, stupid. You have no idea what I believe. Here, let me tell you what I believe about your filthy faith. Mohammed was a lover of swine, other men's women and dong.So you belive in Islam right? I find the story of Muhammad just as laughable.
By the way that is a play on words from the phrase, "Wine, women and song".
I am just tired of your crap so I am giving some back to you in the form of a written beating. Stupid. And no my little whiner, I am not "angry" with you.
HAHAHA!!! scott is pissed! the truth hurts him like a punch to the nose!
Watch this man. the question isnt wither christianity is monotheistic or not, but rather MODERN christians do not follow the orders of GOD. Muslim and Jews pray in identical ways, the old christians(in jesus time) did the same, yet almost NO chrsitians do so today, infact most dont even know about it! I dont want to offend but the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!
Jay P. Green’s Classic Bible Dictionary says about the word trinity, "This is not itself a Biblical term, but was a term coined by Tertullian to refer to this whole concept under one word" (p. 483). The Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature says forthrightly, "Respecting the manner in which the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit make one G-d, the Scripture teaches nothing, since the subject is of such a nature as not to admit of its being explained to us" ("Trinity," p. 553).Your reference does not refute the trinity it anyway whatsoever, it just affirms that the term "trinity" was later coined in reference to the biblical concept found in scripture (all the way back to the earliest known manuscripts). The biblical reality of God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit has been preached by the earliest Christians (Peter, Timothy, John, Mary, Paul, etc...) days after Christ's crucifixion, death, resurrection and ascension. The early Christians affirming the message of Christ were not 3rd and 4th century church councils, they were the disciples and apostles that lived with and learned from our God, Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Christians know the term "trinity" is not found in scripture and was coined by man, but God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit have been there from the beginning.
This authority is not alone in its insight. Another explains that the whole notion of a Trinity emerged from heated disagreement and dispute: "The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies… The council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the ‘Son is of the same substance…as the Father,’ even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit…By the end of the 4th century…the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, Trinity).
How reliable can anything you say be?
The trinity is a false doctrine that was invented hundreds of years after Jesus.
Even stories like the prostitute and casting of the sin and man without sin, that was added in around 4th century as well. It's not a true story, Jesus did not say that.
Why? To reinforce this whole non-sense about abandoning God's law, that you can do whatever you want and still be 'saved', etc...
Lastly all the stories in the NT are so non-credible when it comes to consistency. I already posted a video by a Christian scholar addressing these issues. How the stories don't add up, contradict each other, the accounts contradict each other.
Jesus and the other characters are claimed to say one thing or another in one place but contradict themselves in another.
How can one argue on the basis of anything with such inconsistencies, fabrications and manipulations?
What we need to tackle is the root cause of the problem and that is the false invented belief in the trinity which was forged 400 years after Jesus (pbuh). People were killed to enforce this false belief for centuries.
Your reference does not refute the trinity it anyway whatsoever, it just affirms that the term "trinity" was later coined in reference to the biblical concept found in scripture (all the way back to the earliest known manuscripts). The biblical reality of God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit had been preached by the earliest Christians (Peter, Timothy, John, Mary, Paul, etc...) days after Christ's crucifixion, death, resurrection and ascension. The early Christians affirming the message of Christ were not 3rd and 4th century church councils, they were the disciples and apostles that lived with and learned from our God, Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Christians know the term "trinity" is not found in scripture and was coined by man, but God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit have been there from the beginning.
Again, Islam must deny the trinity, the resurrection of Christ and salvation through Christ or Islam crumbles....it can't stand on it's own!! If Christianity is not somehow denied and beaten down Islam is wrong.
the whole idea and purpose of islam- worship ONE GOD and give God no partners(like a son) or rivals/associates. remember islam dosent deny the teachings of jesus! only the idea he is a "son" and that he died for YOUR sins.
its our duty as muslims to deny not just Trinity but anyone who is a polyhthiest or says God has kids, family ...ect.
Watch this man. the question isnt wither christianity is monotheistic or not, but rather MODERN christians do not follow the orders of GOD. Muslim and Jews pray in identical ways, the old christians(in jesus time) did the same, yet almost NO chrsitians do so today, infact most dont even know about it! I dont want to offend but the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!
TrueBB93,
Will you please kindly address this, in your own words?
Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.
Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.
1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
Another result of the council was an agreement on when to celebrate Easter, the most important feast of the ecclesiastical calendar, decreed in an epistle to the Church of Alexandria in which is simply stated
We also send you the good news of the settlement concerning the holy pasch, namely that in answer to your prayers this question also has been resolved. All the brethren in the East who have hitherto followed the Jewish practice will henceforth observe the custom of the Romans and of yourselves and of all of us who from ancient times have kept Easter together with you.[The Seven Ecumenical Councils:114]
The word Easter appears once in the King James version of the Bible.Herod has put Peter in prison, "intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people" (Acts 12:4). Yet in the original Greek text the word is not Easter, but Pesach, that is Passover. So why was the name changed? Please read on, and remember Exodus 34:14; For you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous G-d.
"Asherah" the Greek form of this word from the Septuagint is "Astarte", who is the Babylonian goddess of the sea, sea being symbolic of people, and consort of the god El. She was the mother of several gods, including Ba'al, the Babylonian god of the sun. These deities were soon adopted by the Canaanites when they named these female deities the Asherah or Asherim. These deities were made of wood carved from a type of evergreen tree, or often they were set up in Canaanite homes as full trees cut down from a forest. The Asherim normally were highly acknowledged during two specific occasions. First and foremost, they were the fertility gods of the spring equinox, when the days and nights were approximately the same in length, signifying the beginning of living things growing for the summer season. A very common practice in the Canaanite religion was performed on the first Sunday of the equinox. The families would face east to await the rising of the sun, which was the chief symbol of the sun god, Ba'al. Later on during the day, the children of the Canaanite parents would often go and hunt for eggs, which were symbolic of sex, fertility and new life. It was believed that these eggs came from rabbits, which in the pagan world were symbolic of lust, sexual prowess and reproduction. The Canaanites, however, were not the only ones who worshiped rabbits as deities. The Egyptians and the Persians (Babylon) also held rabbits in high esteem because they believed that rabbits first came from the divine Phoenix birds, who once ruled the ancient skies until they were attacked by other gods in a power struggle. When they were struck down, they reincarnated into rabbits, but kept the ability to produce eggs like the ancient birds to show their origins.
Other stories concerning the egg rose later in the Middle Ages by the Anglo-Saxons, where they believed the origin of the Universe had the earth being hatched out of an enormous egg. Decorating eggs came about to honor their pagan gods and were often presented as gifts to other families to bring them fertility and sexual success during the coming year. And secondly, they were highly worshiped and celebrated during the winter solstice. As according to Jer. 10:1-5; Is. 40:19-20; 41:7 and 44:9-20, the pagans would go out into the forest and do one of two things. Either they chopped down a tree and carved a female deity out of it, or they would simply bring the tree into the house and decorate it with gold and silver ornaments symbolizing the sun and the moon while nailing a stand on the bottom so it would not totter or tip over.
Out of this practice came many other variations of these pagan festivals until the Roman Catholic Church adopted the Asherah worship and named it EASTER around 155 A.D. According to the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, Easter was named after a pagan goddess of the Anglo-Saxons named Eostre, the goddess of the dawn. A great controversy arose between the Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church in 325 A.D. on whether to celebrate Easter on Sundays or on whatever day the Jewish Passover fell upon. Unfortunately, the Greeks lost a lot of followers and the Catholics contended that keeping Easter on Sundays would stimulate the practices of both the Christian world and the pagan worshipers. Note that the word CATHOLIC means "universal" or "one world" in thought, concept and practice. Hence, since the original practice of Asherah worship we now have in our time the celebration of Easter, a counterfeit holiday to the true Christian festival of the Passover which was instituted in the Bible and completed in the New Testament when Christ died on the cross as our Passover Lamb.
That's in their ignorance of the qur'an ironically. As it was revealed in a living language and a language that is still spoken today by billions. It's also amusing to compare the bible and qur'an as they are nothing alike. Nothing. The qur'an merely re-affirms what was, does not 'copy'. As again, the style of the bible's many books and the qur'an are NOTHING alike. The eloquence and simplicity of the qur'an is incomparable to the bible. Especially if we look at something like paul's writings which are literally his rants.Well, apparently there is, or at least lots of people believe that there is.
The qur'an also speaks very little about Muhammad (pbuh), unlike Paul's writings which speak all about him him him.
There is no confusion or contradiction in it's writing as it is consistent.
What I was referring to with the NT is that what we have of the oldest manuscripts and parchments illustrates that later and deliberate manipulations were created. We can see and KNOW when even these manipulations were made and often times very much so why.
One rather significant fraud is the story of the prostitute and stoning her. This was not in the oldest manuscripts. The church tried to say that some 'unholy people', "erased" the story from the earlier manuscripts. This makes no sense at all. It is a clear coy story to denounce the law and enforce trinitarian doctrine. As is attested to, NOT a story of Jesus, NOT what Jesus spoke, yet it is included. As such revised bibles indicate this is not found in the original manuscripts but it is kept for "tradition's" sake.
Likewise with translations, there were deliberate mistranslations of words.
As far as the qur'an is concerned, it was revealed in the qureishi dialect and it was recorded as such. The difference of the other dialects occured when people from other regions speaking arabic diferently started pronouncing words differently. As such Uthman (ra) the caliphate made it his mandate to officiate and compile the qur'an in the original standard as instructed by Muhammad (pbuh) and it is what we have up to this day.
The only addition was the accents for non-arab speakers.
Published on 14 Apr 2012
*** Update: Young Bara'ah has passed away. May Allah SWTA join her with her mother and father in the highest levels of Jannah. Ameen.
This is the recitation of Bara'ah, a 10 year old girl diagnosed with Cancer. She is reciting from Surah Saffaat, Ayahs 83-102.
Here is her story:
Bara'ah is a 10 year old who finished memorizing the whole Qur'an with Tajweed. Her parents were doctors who moved to Saudi Arabia in search of better life. Bara'ah was very intelligent. Her teacher used to tell her that she should be in middle school not primary school.
Her family was small and committed to Islam and its teachings. One day, her mother began experiencing severe abdominal pain. After going to the hospital and diagnostics tests and imaging performed, it was discovered that she had cancer, but in its late stages.
The mother thought she should tell her daughter, especially if she wakes up one day and didn't find her mother beside her. Being at the young tender age of 10, her mother told her: "Bara`ah, I will go to paradise ahead of you, but I want you to read the Quran you memorized every day since it will protect you in this life."
The little girl didn't really understand what her mother was trying to tell her, but she began feeling the change in her mother's status. Soon, her mother was was transferred to stay in the hospital on a permanent basis. Bara'ah used to come to the hospital after school and recite the Quran for her mother until the evening when her father would take her home.
One day the hospital called the husband and informed him that the his wife's condition had deteriorated and that it would be advisable to come to the hospital immediately. The father picked up Bara`ah from school and headed to the hospital. When they arrived, he asked her to stay in the car so he could first see what the condition of his wife was.
The father got out of the car with tears filled in his eyes. While crossing the road to enter the hospital, he was hit by a speeding car and died in front of his daughter who came crying to her father.
The tragedy of Bar`ah is not over yet. The news of her father's death was hidden from the mother. Her condition steadily worsened, and 5 days later, she passed away leaving Bar`ah alone without her parents. Her parents' friends decided to find her relatives in Egypt so that they could take care of her.
Soon thereafter, Bara`ah began having severe pain, similar to what her mother experienced. At the hospital, she too was diagnosed with cancer. At the surprise of everyone she said, "Alhamdulillah, now I will meet my parents."
All of the family friends were shocked at her response. This little girl, being faced with calamity after calamity, yet she remained patient and satisfied with what Allah ordained for her!
The news of Bara'ah and her story spread. One Saudi heard of her story and decided to take care of her. He sent her to the UK to receive the appropriate treatment for her condition.
In the UK, her condition worsened and the cancer spread throughout her body with metastasis in multiple organs. The doctors had to amputate her legs, yet she still remained patient. Soon, the cancer spread to her brain the doctors had to do brain surgery. Bara'ah went into a full coma.
Before she went into coma, one of the Islamic channels (Al Hafiz - The protector) got in contact with this little girl and asked her to recite the Qur'an. This video is of her beautiful recitation of Surah Saffaat.
Well, apparently there is, or at least lots of people believe that there is.
Are you blind in what I copy pasted from the two encyclopedias?
The trinity doctrine in its full form was not even finalized until around 400 years after. The first time it was even debated and finalized was ultimately in the council of nicea and at that time the holy spirit was not a discussion point much it was about who is jesus and who is God.
Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to note that the encyclopedia reference is just flat out wrong about the God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit not being preached...it's all their in scripture and completely affirmed by God, the disciples, the apostles and millions of believers worldwide. So, it's all good.
give me a source(besides the modern bible) that says Jesus died for you sins
sure but before I do I must add somthing important: In the other thread I asked you guys whiter you thought the Bible is "word for word" the word of God, you guys answered No, but inspired by God.
the reason I point this out is very important. I(and all other muslims) believe in ALL the books, hence why the Quran refers to you guys(christians) as "people of the book"(people who have been revealed the truth), except we believe in the original version(which contained 100% truth), not the modern day bible( a blend of truth and falsehoods)
the Bible that people read today seeing as there many many diffrent versions, with certain verses being taken out, and others put in(go to a christian scholar and ask him, if you dont believe me). So the Bible is no longer 100% the word of God it once was. hence a verse will hints at the idea of Jesus(pbuh) dying for you sins or being the son of God is somthing added later.
So the statement I said "the orignal followers of jesus didnt say jesus died for there sins" is somthing which can be proved through history (how the follows of jesus prayed like jews at syangoues 300 years AFTER jesus left this world and considerd jesuses departure from earth nothing like you guys do in the sense of him being sacrificed). and the opposite(your side of the arugment of him dying for you sins) cannot be proven any other way except using the modern day bible, the same bible why was edited and isnt 100% word of God which even chrisitans admit(hence why they say inspired by God rather then "word for word the word" of God). So verses which say things like " died for us" is somthing put into the bible many many years later and nothing somthing original.
hope I answered you question Loco, and sorry if I offended you in anyway.
Thank you for addressing this, finally. Nice conspiracy theory you got going there. So some guy said this on a YouTube video and you believe it?
There are an abundance of Bible scholars, past and present, who will disagree with you. I have studied the Bible, Bible History, and Archeology myself. My father was a Bible scholar. I have known Bible scholars. And we all know what you say is not true and you have not an ounce of evidence to back it up.
With your conspiracy theory, you can conveniently add to or remove from the Bible anything that you want to fit your beliefs. You could say that the original Bible never mentioned Jesus, that Jesus was added later. You could even say that the original Bible never mentioned God, that God was added later.
New Testament documents are better preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writing. Because they are so numerous, they can be cross checked for accuracy...and they are very consistent.
There are presently 5,686 Greek manuscripts in existence today for the New Testament. If we were to compare the number of New Testament manuscripts to other ancient writings, we find that the New Testament manuscripts far outweigh the others in quantity.
Just one example:
Aristotle's ancient writings date 384-322 B.C.. The earliest copy we have is from 1,100 A.D.. The approximate time span between original & copy is 1,400 years. We have only 49 copies.
Ceasar's ancient writings date 100-44 B.C.. The earliest copy we have is from 900 A.D.. The approximate time span between original & copy is 1,000 years. We have only 10 copies.
The New Testament on the other hand dates 1st Cent. A.D. (50-100 A.D.). The earliest copies we have are from 2nd Cent. A.D. (130 A.D.). The approximate time span between original & copy is less than 100 years. We have 5,686 copies.
I'll tell you what, prove that the New Testament never said that Jesus died for our sins by producing an earlier copy that does not mention that Jesus died for our sins.
alright ::) you want to open this can of worms huh?
so since you claim to have studied the Bibile, you father has too and you claim to know Bibile Scholars, then I am assuming you know who Bart D. Ehrman is? he is a New testament scholar. lets take a look at a few of the things he said in his books shall we?
"In his book Forged which was released in 2011, he asserts that 11 or more books of the Christian New Testament were essentially politically expeditious forgeries, intended to advance various theological positions and were in fact not written by the authors traditionally ascribed to them"
He also said in misqouting jesus we dont even have a COPY of a COPY of a COPY of a COPY of a COPY or anything original from the bible!!!!!!!!! thats 5!!!!!
AND THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS!!!! ALMOST ALL OF MY INFORMATION ABOUT THE BIBLES FAULTS HAVE BEEN FROM CHRISITANS!! PEOPLE WHO ARE SCHOLARS! THIS ISNT A YOUTUBE-ILLUMANTI TYPE GIMMICK VIDEO! THESE ARE EDUCATED BIBLE SCHOLARS COMMING OUT AND SAYING SOMTHING THINGS ABOUT THEIR OWN FAITH IS JUST PLAIN WORNG!
If you consider youself to have strong faith then watch this(if you dont, it means you belief is weak, since you rather not hear the truth and stay in your own bubble)
here is ANOTHER bible scholar Yusuf estes!
TrueBB93,
It's very simple. Prove that the New Testament never said that Jesus died for our sins by producing an earlier copy that does not mention that Jesus died for our sins.
let me guess you didnt watch the vid i posted becuase of your weak faith you were afriad rigth? :-* how do you sleep at night know the truth is there but you skip over it?
I asked you FIRST to prove jesus died for your sins without using the bible, you werent man enough to do that, now you come and ask me the same question? You first buddy, then I will go :-* :-* :-*
the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!
give me a source(besides the modern bible) that says Jesus died for you sins
I need a source other than God?
Doctor William Lane Craig:
"If you approach this question simply on the basis of the Hebrew Bibile or what we would call the old testement one wouldnt
come to beleive God is a trinity" :-*
"the doctrine of the trinity isnt explicly taught in any passage of the Bible, in otherwords the doctrine that there is One God manifest in three persons, that these three persons are each individually God, but theres only one God. not three Gods but one God but not one person three persons. This is not taught in any passage of the Bible except for 1 John, Chapter 5 verses 7 and 8."
more from our friend and CHRISTIAN SCHOLAR Bart Ehrman ;)
"in the year 1516 he(erasmus) put together the frist printed edition of the greek new testement he didnt include the verse(the ons mentioned above, the ONLY verses which teach the supposely trinity which later become known as a forgery :-*) becuase it wasnt in the manuscripts. and the latin theologists went balalistic. according to the story erasmus said look its not in any of the greek manuscripts, and they(the lantin theologists) said but yes its part of the churchs doctrine! you have gotten rid of the Trinity! and Erasmus said look if you can produce a Greek manuscipt that has it in it(the verse in question), I will include it in my next edition. SO THEY PRODUCED A GREEK MANUSCIPT!(they made one LOL!)
Doctor James White believes the Trinity was revealed AFTER the old Testament. Thus he believes the Trinity was not their either.
These are words from your OWN CHRISTAN SCHOLARS!! not from a muslim.
So what? I could cut and paste quotes from thousands of Bible scholars who do believe the entire Bible supports the Trinity. And I have already posted an abundance of Bible passages showing why we believe this.
TrueBB93,
Prove that the New Testament never said that Jesus died for our sins by producing an earlier copy that does not mention that Jesus died for our sins.
the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!
THERE ARE NO ORIGINAL COPIES OF ANYTHING LEFT! its ALL alterd.
Doctor William Lane Craig:
"If you approach this question simply on the basis of the Hebrew Bibile or what we would call the old testement one wouldnt
come to beleive God is a trinity" :-*
"the doctrine of the trinity isnt explicly taught in any passage of the Bible, in otherwords the doctrine that there is One God manifest in three persons, that these three persons are each individually God, but theres only one God. not three Gods but one God but not one person three persons. This is not taught in any passage of the Bible except for 1 John, Chapter 5 verses 7 and 8."
more from our friend and CHRISTIAN SCHOLAR Bart Ehrman ;)
"in the year 1516 he(erasmus) put together the frist printed edition of the greek new testement he didnt include the verse(the ons mentioned above, the ONLY verses which teach the supposely trinity which later become known as a forgery :-*) becuase it wasnt in the manuscripts. and the latin theologists went balalistic. according to the story erasmus said look its not in any of the greek manuscripts, and they(the lantin theologists) said but yes its part of the churchs doctrine! you have gotten rid of the Trinity! and Erasmus said look if you can produce a Greek manuscipt that has it in it(the verse in question), I will include it in my next edition. SO THEY PRODUCED A GREEK MANUSCIPT!(they made one LOL!)
Doctor James White believes the Trinity was revealed AFTER the old Testament. Thus he believes the Trinity was not their either.
These are words from your OWN CHRISTAN SCHOLARS!! not from a muslim.
99% accurate? No he hasn't lol, he has in fact proven what we've been repeating over and over again. Not our words, but words of Christians who know the scriptures and not just fundamentalist evangelists who are all blinded by blind faith... and who even go as far as saying the bible is the word of God.
He was in fact a fundamentalist evangelist and studied under them as well but the more knowledge he received, the more he studied, the more he realized that these are lies he's been fed.
He has had a chance to look at the actual parchments and can attest that there are millions of errors, manipulations, forgeries, etc...
Bart Ehrman is not a Christian. He is an agnostic.
You know what, you are absolutely correct. I was thinking of Dr. Paul Copan. That was my mistake. Dr. Ehrman has debated Dr. Craig in the past. I've modified my post above because of my mistake.
And you sir are correct in that William Lane Craig fully supports the Trinity and fervently debates in favor of the Trinity.
An interesting fact too is that William Lane Craig graduated from and later taught at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. ;D
You haven't obviously watched any of his lectures or read any of his books. That's just silly.
He outlines some pretty radical manipulations and forgeries it's not 'minute changes'. He points to those being tens upon tens of thousands indeed. He also talks about the manipulations and foregeries.
Some of those 'minute changes' as you like to call them are significant enough as well as changing a word can change the whole meaning of something dramatically. For example to allure to the trinity or to have absolutely nothing to do with the trinity.
He points to fabricated stories, where lines were added, moved or removed throughout parchments in the books how stories moved around and where placed in different locations to add flavour or distinct manipulated meaning. Intended meaning vs actual meaning. etc...
One big forgery is the story of the prostitute. Why? Because it allures to doctrine. Disobeying the law (which Jesus would have not done) and coming up with a clever line to showcase 'mercy' of sorts. He talks about this deliberate development and forgery as one such example to reinforce the church doctrine that was developing.
As we all know 300-400 years after in particular.
These 'minute' changes as you call them are big changes in the long run as we can see today.
That's why in islam we say:
The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) said: "Every innovation is misguidance and going astray" Reported by Abu Daawood (no. 4607), at-Tirmidhee (no. 2676) and it is saheeh. Ibn Hajr authenticated it Takhreej Ahaadeeth Ibn ul-Haajib (1/137).
And he (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) also said: "… and every innovation is misguidance and all misguidance is in the Hellfire." Reported by an-Nasaa'ee (1/224) from Jaabir bin Abdullaah and it is saheeh as declared by Shaikh ul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah in Majmoo' ul-Fataawaa (3/58).
Point a flash light at a wall straight, it will be a straight line. Make a 1* change at the starting point of the flash light and that change at the wall will be far more than just 1*. It will be way off course.
That's why God sent prophets and messengers repeatedly to bring people back to the truth once they've swerved off the true and straight path.
The Prophet said, "Leave me as I leave you, for the people who were before you were ruined because of their questions and their differences over their prophets. So, if I forbid you to do something, then keep away from it. And if I order you to do something, then do of it as much as you can."Hadith - Bukhari 9:391, Narrated Abu Huraira
Bart Ehrman is not a Christian. He is an agnostic.
No I don't own a copy of "Jesus Misquoted" and have not read it.
I have watched him debate and wasn't particularly impressed or disappointed....was more left with a feeling of "meh".
^^^^^ prime example! i've seen this vid before.
MOS and Loco take a look. Dont ignore the vids. If you really think your faith is strong then take a look
I've also seen this video before, but I'm listening to it again now while I type this.
he WAS a christian unil he saw the amount of deception, lies, contradictions and mistakes. how can a sane person still even consider reading the Bible after it is well know to have certain verses played with?
he WAS a christian unil he saw the amount of deception, lies, contradictions and mistakes. how can a sane person still even consider reading the Bible after it is well know to have certain verses played with?
Genesis 18:1
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Genesis 18:22
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.
Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.
Honestly I'm not sure why you pasted these excerpts, but if it was to suggest that "Lord" = "God" then refer 1 Peter 3:6 where Sarah calls Abraham Lord. Therefore, if you believe Lord = God then Abraham too is God. The word Lord is simply a title of authority, ever hear of "Lord Vader"? :)
See also 1 Cornithians 8:6 "yet for us there is only one God, the father, and one Lord Jesus Christ." This verse clearly differentiates the words God and Lord from each other.
Honestly I'm not sure why you pasted these excerpts, but if it was to suggest that "Lord" = "God" then refer 1 Peter 3:6 where Sarah calls Abraham Lord. Therefore, if you believe Lord = God then Abraham too is God. The word Lord is simply a title of authority, ever hear of "Lord Vader"? :)
See also 1 Cornithians 8:6 "yet for us there is only one God, the father, and one Lord Jesus Christ." This verse clearly differentiates the words God and Lord from each other.
"LORD" in Genesis 18 and 19 refers to God:
Genesis 18:1
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Adonai appeared to Avraham by the oaks of Mamre as he sat at the entrance to the tent during the heat of the day.
Genesis 18:22
The men turned away from there and went toward S’dom, but Avraham remained standing before Adonai.
Genesis 19:24
Then Adonai caused sulfur and fire to rain down upon S’dom and ‘Amora from Adonai out of the sky.
Clearly we have God person number one raining fire and brimstone from a second God person who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.
lol, there is nothing at all "clear" about a "God person and a second God person." This is something which only makes sense to you because you want to believe it. It is also both non-scriptural and unreasonable.
And typing "Adonai" instead of "Lord" does not at all affect my earlier argument that Peter is called Lord, therefore Lord does not mean God.
lol, there is nothing at all "clear" about a "God person and a second God person." This is something which only makes sense to you because you want to believe it. It is also both non-scriptural and unreasonable.
And typing "Adonai" instead of "Lord" does not at all affect my earlier argument that Peter is called Lord, therefore Lord does not mean God.
I did not just type "Adonai" instead of "LORD." That's how the Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) translated it from Hebrew. Look it up if you don't believe me. When God's Hebrew names "YHWH" or "Adonai" are used in the Old Testament, English translations usually use "LORD" instead. These English translations explain this in their introduction. I have known this since I was a child.
Sarah also referred to her husband Abraham as lord....a common practice among the Jews. Within three verses we see Abraham referred to as lord of his wife and Abraham referring to the Lord God.
I didn't doubt that Adonai is the Hebrew word that is translated as Lord, so there isn't anything to "look up" lol. My whole point, which I think you've forgotten, is that Jesus being called "Lord" does not serve as evidence that he is in fact God.
Well, I think we've clearly established that there isn't a verse of scripture you or ahmed or true would accept that validates that Jesus Christ is God.
When Thomas sees the resurrected Christ and exclaims, "My Lord and my God!"
When Christ said to Phillip, "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."
When Christ said, "I and the Father are one."
When Christ said, "Before Abraham was, I AM."
Or John's opening discourse in his gospel about the Word becoming flesh in Jesus Christ....Chapter 1 verses 1-18 is an absolute revelation.
Or the Sanhedrin trying Jesus for blasphemy for claiming to be God.
I've heard all your objections before on these verses so no need to rehash them here.
These verses alone are sufficient, but they aren't....nothing is sufficient.
Totally correct, as I've always stated there is no clear scripture teaching that Jesus is God. There is however lots of scripture which suggests he is man.
Like I posted before to loco, the strongest evidence of Jesus' divinity is Thomas called him "My God!" and we have no documentation of Jesus denying it in response. In the thousands of verses and quotes from Jesus in the Bible this is the strongest evidence? That's very weak IMO.
Very wrong for you to say "nothing is sufficient" because surely a quote where Jesus called himself God (if one existed which we've established does not) would be sufficient. So yes, the verses which exist are not sufficient. However, it's incorrect to say that nothing would be sufficient.
The fact that trinitarian christians struggle to provide evidenes and we have to debate and debate and debate with elusive weak verses that can be intereprted eve so many ways shows that you have no evidence.yep
If it was true in effect, perhaps the bible would keep talking and talking and talking AND TALKING about the TRINITY and over and over and over again emphasizing how Jesus is literally God, and Jesus talks about being God, and so on and so on.
Instead we have a Jesus who keeps talking ABOUT God, and differentiating himself from God. Not knowing what God knows. Doing things on God's behalf, serving God, praying to God, the list goes on.
Being called prophet far more than 'god', being called MAN far more than 'god'. If we are to even accept your verses as even agreeable.
"MY GOD! MOS!" You shocked me... wait are you going to interpret that as God?
You remember when I told you about the dream about Jesus I had before becoming Muslim? I said Jesus told me 'there is only one God', as I was thinking about the trinity and it's non-sense. YOU interpret that as "oh that naturally means Jesus is God"
So if I tell you "THere is only one God", that means I am teling you I am God.
You see how silly all that is?
You are fighting a losing battle with straws. Trinity is a lie as we know it historically to be forged. End of thread.
I didn't doubt that Adonai is the Hebrew word that is translated as Lord, so there isn't anything to "look up" lol. My whole point, which I think you've forgotten, is that Jesus being called "Lord" does not serve as evidence that he is in fact God.
Who said anything here about Jesus being called "Lord"? We are discussing Genesis 19:24.
Genesis 19:24
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Then Adonai caused sulfur and fire to rain down upon S’dom and ‘Amora from Adonai out of the sky.
Clearly we have God person number one raining fire and brimstone from a second God person who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.
Because you don't link your quotes to arguments as usual I assumed your use of Genesis 19:24 was somehow a continuation of our discussion where I showed that Jesus being called "Lord" is not indicative of being "God."
Anyhow since you've clarified that you are simply discussing Genesis 19:24 in isolation, I fail to see how you can gather from that verse that there are two God persons. It's just another example of forcing an interpretation of a verse to match what you want to believe.
So who goes to Heaven/Paradise? We have been programmed that there is only one right religion. Everyone else will be left behind. Why can't you religious people explain that?
We're all uneducated, weak-willed, brainwashed morons that are scared of dying.I sense sarcasm :D Do you believe Christianity is the only way to salvation?
I sense sarcasm :D Do you believe Christianity is the only way to salvation?
We're all uneducated, weak-willed, brainwashed morons that are scared of dying so we invent fantasies and flying spaghetti monsters to make us feel better about our inevitable cosmic fate.
I'll ask that you allow me ample time to complete my sarcasm before quoting me:That is why I have a problem with religion. You don't think a muslim would feel the same about the Prophet? Someone who believes in Buddha? I would be far more interested in a religion that practiced a way of life, devoid of being forced to pick sides. My heaven would include all faiths.
That said, yes, 100%.
I did link my quote to your argument. What are you talking about?
Okay bigbobs, you are familiar with the Biblical account in Genesis 18 and 19 about God visiting Abraham, eating with Abraham, walking with Abraham shortly before God destroyed Sodom an Gomorrah, right? Are you familiar with this?
That is why I have a problem with religion. You don't think a muslim would feel the same about the Prophet? Someone who believes in Buddha? I would be far more interested in a religion that practiced a way of life, devoid of being forced to pick sides. My heaven would include all faiths.
I am somewhat familiar with Genesis 18 and 19. What's your point? That's also where it's quoted that Lot's two daughters each got their father drunk and had sex with him on two separate nights while he did not even know what happened right? ::)
You are "somewhat" familiar with Genesis 18 and 19? Somewhat familiar? You have not yet read the entire Bible? Yet you dare claim there is no Biblical support for the trinity and for the deity of Jesus Christ? ::)
How do you interpret Genesis 18:1 through Genesis 19:24? Take your time and read the entire account if you want to. Who is this God person standing next to Abraham on earth while at the same time there is another God person in Heaven?
Genesis 18:1-5
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
1 Adonai appeared to Avraham by the oaks of Mamre as he sat at the entrance to the tent during the heat of the day.
2 He raised his eyes and looked, and there in front of him stood three men. On seeing them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, prostrated himself on the ground,
3 and said, “My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, please don’t leave your servant.
4 Please let me send for some water, so that you can wash your feet; then rest under the tree,
5 and I will bring a piece of bread. Now that you have come to your servant, refresh yourselves before going on.” “Very well,” they replied, “do what you have said.”
Genesis 18:22
The men turned away from there and went toward S’dom, but Avraham remained standing before Adonai.
Genesis 19:24
Then Adonai caused sulfur and fire to rain down upon S’dom and ‘Amora from Adonai out of the sky.
I am familiar enough to know about the incestuous claim within those verses, which I noticed you didn't comment on.
God being in more than one place or committing actions in more than one place does not necessitate more than one "God person" as God is not limited to only being one place at one time like us.
There is no "incestuous claim" within those verses. The story you refer to about Lot and his daughters doesn't start until Genesis 19:30, after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. I have no problems discussing that story if you want to start another thread, but in this thread it is irrelevant and you are only bringing it up to distract from the real discussion and avoid my questions.
bigbobs, you did not answer my question. You and your Muslim brothers on the board keep questioning Jesus(God the Son) praying to himself(God the Father). Yet in Genesis 19:24 there is a God person on earth raining down sulfur and fire from another God person up in Heaven.
How do you interpret Genesis 19:24?
I do not interpet Genesis 19:24 as though there is not one "God person" on earth and another "God person" in Heaven, like I said God can be in all places at all times, and can rain down sulfur from earth and fire from heaven without necessitating two "God persons." I put that term in quotations because I find it so incomprehensible.
Thank you!
Do you believe that God really did appear on earth in human form to Abraham, or do you see this as yet another Bible corruption?
No I don't believe Abraham saw God, and neither should you, if you believe in John 4:12 ""No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God remains in us, and his love has been perfected in us."
There are many verses in the Old Testament that say that no one has seen God, yet there are also many verses that talk about people having seen God, like Abraham and Moses for example.
If the people of the Old Testament were seeing God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God, but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I believe that they were seeing the Word before He became flesh. In other words, they were seeing Jesus.
John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Though Jesus is not God the Father, Jesus is God the Son. Seeing Jesus is the closest thing to seeing God the Father, because Jesus and the Father are one God.
John 10:30-33
I and the Father are one.
hahhaha he did post contradicting verses again. At least if we are to interpret them the way he does.
It's amazing how the bible can contradict itself in the same 'book'/'chapter' and often times the same paragraph lol. Oh well at least we got loco to entertain us with it all. He is trying to prove to us that we should worship a human being even if it makes absolutely no sense, and we are just not buying into his non-sense.
No, if the people of the Old Testament are said to have seen God, and Jesus said no one has ever seen God, then there are two implications:
a) The old Testament contradicts Jesus' teachings (if you believe Jesus taught that he is God), and
b) Jesus himself is not God because why would God say "no one has seen God" to a group
of people if He was indeed standing before them and visible to them.
Instead of admitting the obvious contradiction in a) and the dismissal of Jesus' divinity in b), you come up with ideas that dont make sense such as there being more than one "God person" yet still one God or that people in the Old Testament were seeing Jesus (Jews would not agree with this either), and that Jesus and the Fater are both God but one bipolar entity.
Like I've said many times before, ignoring these evidences of Jesus not being God is simply forcing an implausible interpretation just to cling to what you want to believe. You can believe your obscure explanations, but you won't be fooling me or any other unbiased reader here.
Why should there be only two implications? I could turn the tables on you and say exactly the same thing about your interpretation.
They were seeing God, but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I believe that they were seeing the Word before He became flesh. In other words, they were seeing Jesus.
See? That another implication.
lol so everything has numerous implications and interpretaitons of equal plausibility therefore we don't know what to believe. Great defence ::)
No, I believe there is only one implication:
"Anyone who has seen me[Jesus] has seen the Father." John 14:9
But you believe otherwise.
Based on weak arguments you have made you can't blame me for belieiving otherwise
As stated before, I am not here to try to convert you. I believe in freedom of religion.
If you were wondering why so many Christians believe in one God in three persons, and why so many Christians believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, I have given you and our readers some of the Bible verses that we see as Biblical basis for these.
Yup and after reading the verses you gave me I still wonder why so many Christians believe in the Trinity or divinity of Jesus.