St. Anslem's Ontological Argument

[SuperNatural]

1. The idea of God is the idea of a greatest possible being (i.e., it is not possible to think of a beign greater than God.)

2. Assume that the idea of God is the idea of a being that exists only as a figment of our imagination and does not exist in reality.

3.  If 2 is true, then we can form the idea of a being in our minds that is just like God but that also exists in reality; let's call this the idea of REAL GOD.

4.  The idea fo REAL GOD is greater then the idea of God.  So, if 2 is true, it is possible to think of a being greater than God.

5. 1 and 4 are contradictory statements

Therefore:  Our assumption that God exists only as a figment of our imagination must be false (i.e., God is a being that exists in reality).

[Johnny Apollo]

1.The creation of the Universe is the greatest and most marvelous achievement imaginable.

2.The greatness of a creation is a.It's quality and b.the handicap of the creator.

3.The greater the handicap of the creator creating the universe the more marvelous the universe is.(Man with no hands making a sculpture is more marvelous than one with 2 hands doing the same).

4.The largest handicap for a creator would be non-existence.

5.Therefor if the universe is the greatest and most marvelous achievement imaginable, then that would imply the largest handicap would apply to the creator. The largest handicap would be nonexistence.

6.Therefor God does not exist.





Same logic from Anselm's argument applied.

[SuperNatural]

Excellent, where did you find that?

You could also use Gaunilo's Parody

x is the Lost Island: df- x is the island than which none greater can be conceived.

1. If the Lost Island exists only in the intellect, then we can conceive of an island greater than the Lost Island.

2.  We cannot conceive of an island greater than the Lost Isle.

3.  Therefore, it's not the case that the Lost Island exists only in the intellect.

4.  Either the Lost Island exists in reality or the Lost Island exists only in the intellect.

5.  Therefore, the Lost Island exists in reality.


Obviously conceiving a perfect island in intellect does not prove existence of this Lost Island.

[Johnny Apollo]

I forgot where I saw it. Long time ago.

[SuperNatural]

Also "existence" is assumed to be perfection.  Kant suggested that "existence" is not a "real" property.  If one can add properties to x, then x is not perfect.  But when looking for my perfect girl I can list many qualities (height, breasts, etc.) but simply adding the quality of existence to my dream girl has no effect.  Immanuel objects to Anslem by redifining "existence."

[OzmO]

I pay taxes therefore i am.

God help me.

[Cavalier22]

what about pascal. i always thought his conclusion that you should worship god no matter hw you feel to be shite

[Johnny Apollo]

what about pascal. i always thought his conclusion that you should worship god no matter hw you feel to be shite

Pascals wager..


1.God may or may not exist.

2.If he does not exist and you worshiped him you have nothing to loose.

3.If he does exist and you didn't worship him,You have all eternity to loose in hell.

Find the flaws in the argument

[OzmO]

Find the flaws in the argument

Easy....  You're a liar.  And a Scaredl Littel Boy

[OzmO]

BTW here is a real picture of me.

Me and my twin brother.

Both of us post under this user name.

* 3244.jpg (47.64 KB, 394x234 - viewed 24 times.)

[SuperNatural]

Pascal's wager is weak.  It infers that Christianity is correct.  Philosophical arguments should not require inferences to one particular belief.  So say you spend your entire life living for the Christian God, and you find out that the actual God is Hindu.  According to Pascal you get screwed big time.  There are many good theistic arguments, but Pascal is not one of them.