Can you live your life to Jesus and still be on the Sauce?

[BayGBM]

Sauce is only a small part of the problem. 

Taking pride in your appearance is one thing but body building requires a great deal of vanity--hardly a Christian virtue.  Indeed it is one of the “seven deadly sins.”  Your goal in bodybuilding is not merely to achieve (cosmetic) physical conditioning, it is to be looked at, admired, and, yes, even worshipped.  This doesn’t just happen on stage or in magazines.  This latter characterization is underscored by posing for a venue like musclegallery.com; a company that specializes in homoerotica and muscle worship videos.  And don’t get me started in private posing . . .

http://musclegallery.com/mark_dugdale/index.htm

Part of what makes body building problematic is that it is based entirely on the superficial.  You don’t have big muscles in order to do something (run fast, jump, lift heavy, etc.)  you have them simply for the sake of showing them off; you build and build yourself up, but for no possible purpose.  The proliferation of synthol and implants scarcely warrant comment.

I’m not saying you can’t be a Christian and enjoy sports, but professional bodybuilidng? very selective Christianity.

Here’s a serious question: why do Christians love to tell people they are Christians?  Who are they trying to convince?  We have a saying where I come from, “Don’t listen to what people say; listen to what they do.”  If you are a Christian, all you need do is walk the walk.  Don’t talk the talk.

[Butterbean]

Sauce is only a small part of the problem. 

  Indeed it is one of the “seven deadly sins.” 

Hi Bay and welcome!  

I think the "seven deadly sins" is a Catholic tradition type thing and not necessarily a biblical teaching. 

The bible teaches that ANY sin (even lying!) makes someone a sinner and unable to stand in the presence of God (this would mean that we couldn't be w/Him in heaven for eternity).  But He made a way for us sinners to become "holy" by accepting His Son as our Savior (in which case all who do can be w/God in heaven for eternity!). 

So I guess, according to the bible, any sin would be a "deadly" sin.  So I'm not really sure about the Catholic tradition Seven deadly sins thing. 

[BayGBM]

The history of the 7 deadly sins is irrelevant; the noteworthy point is that excessive vanity is wrong by almost any measure in any belief system and excessive vanity is an integral party of bodybuilding. I think bodybuilders who extol their Christianity are terrible hypocrites.

I still have to laugh when I remember that someone here claimed Dugdale didn’t know what he was posing for when he signed on with musclegallery.com  ha ha ha

[Colossus_500]

The history of the 7 deadly sins is irrelevant; the noteworthy point is that excessive vanity is wrong by almost any measure in any belief system and excessive vanity is an integral party of bodybuilding. I think bodybuilders who extol their Christianity are terrible hypocrites.

I still have to laugh when I remember that someone here claimed Dugdale didn’t know what he was posing for when he signed on with musclegallery.com  ha ha ha

Bay, you make a very grave, but extremely common mistake.  Christianity and Hypocrisy are inseparable, i.e., they are not separate entitities.  It's fallable to believe that Christians are not hypocritical.  We are ALL hypocrites.  There's no way around it!  This is the reason Christ died for us. 

[Butterbean]

Bay, you make a very grave, but extremely common mistake.  Christianity and Hypocrisy are inseparable, i.e., they are not separate entitities.  It's fallable to believe that Christians are not hypocritical.  We are ALL hypocrites.  There's no way around it!  This is the reason Christ died for us. 

I believe every person on earth is a hypcrite to some degree.  Including myself of course.

[Colossus_500]

I believe every person on earth is a hypcrite to some degree.  Including myself of course.

Check my name off on the list too.   

 

[OzmO]

I believe every person on earth is a hypcrite to some degree.  Including myself of course.

So you are saying it's impossible to be a hypcirtical hypcrite?

[blondmusclhunk]

Your body is supposed to be a temple of God.  Why not make it as best of temple as you can.  As far as vanity yes there is vanity involved but if that vanity is not getting in the way of you respecting others.  Then there is no problem.  Its us guys (not me) but other muscleheads as people call is that are cruel to others not in good shape ie fat skinny etc:

[BayGBM]

Bay, you make a very grave, but extremely common mistake.  Christianity and Hypocrisy are inseparable, i.e., they are not separate entitities.  It's fallable to believe that Christians are not hypocritical.  We are ALL hypocrites.  There's no way around it!  This is the reason Christ died for us. 

The only mistake I see is people repeatedly proclaiming their alleged Christianity for all to hear.  Everyone has personal beliefs; why do so many Christians feel the need to declare this belief so loudly and often?  You don’t hear this nearly as often from people with other (or no) beliefs.

A biblical verse is applicable here: you shall know a tree by the fruit which it bears.  In other words, show your beliefs through actions—not through running your mouth. 

The necessary vanity characteristic of bodybuilding is wholly inconsistent with Christian values.

[Butterbean]

So you are saying it's impossible to be a hypcirtical hypcrite?

 

The only mistake I see is people repeatedly proclaiming their alleged Christianity for all to hear.  Everyone has personal beliefs; why do so many Christians feel the need to declare this belief so loudly and often?  You don’t hear this nearly as often from people with other (or no) beliefs.

A biblical verse is applicable here: you shall know a tree by the fruit which it bears.  In other words, show your beliefs through actions—not through running your mouth. 

Bay, I think that some Christians declare their beliefs in an attempt at subtle evangelism.  They'll say something about God that they hope the hearer will receive and turn around and ask them about their beliefs.  I feel that people that engage in this type of subtle evangelism don't want to be "preachy" or make anyone uncomfortable, but offer the listener an opportunity to hear more if they so choose.

And in general I think Christians want to share the Good News because we believe what the bible says is true.....that we are all sinners in need of a savior.  And we want to tell who it is.

I can totally understand your distaste in the reality of hypocritical Christians.  But I wonder if you've been on the receiving end of some "holier-than-thou" finger pointing judgemental BS?  That stuff is revolting to me also!

People that do that are commiting the sin of Pride which is the sin that started ALL the sins to begin with!

One of my friends that is in this industry whose "Christian" cousin was always telling her she was going to hell because she was in this business.  Well, according to the bible, my friend was on her way to hell when she told her first lie (if that was her first sin).  The cousin evidently just put my friend down and my friend just wanted to get away from her.  I don't blame her a bit!  Later when my friend heard that Jesus accepts you just the way you are and loves you unconditionally and will forgive your sins if you want Him to, she accepted Him as her savior.

 

The necessary vanity characteristic of bodybuilding is wholly inconsistent with Christian values.

Every Christian does something every day that is wholly inconsistent w/Christian values.  Don't look at us as your guide, delve into the life of Christ in the Scriptures.  He lived a perfect, righteous life.  We are unable to do that while still in our fleshly bodies.

[BayGBM]

Bay, I think that some Christians declare their beliefs in an attempt at subtle evangelism.  They'll say something about God that they hope the hearer will receive and turn around and ask them about their beliefs.  I feel that people that engage in this type of subtle evangelism don't want to be "preachy" or make anyone uncomfortable, but offer the listener an opportunity to hear more if they so choose.

That’s a nice spin, but I don’t’ buy it.  I know lots of people (gay and straight) who are practicing Christians and they do not make it a point to announce their alleged Christianity in settings where it is inappropriate to do so. (Is a bodybuilding website or competition the right venue to declare one’s religion?)  The Christians I respect show their faith through their behavior… the values they hold… the way they treat other people…

The last thing I want to hear is a steroid (ab)using bodybuilder who “private poses” on the side when his wife isn’t looking declaring his “Christianity.”

[Butterbean]

That’s a nice spin, but I don’t’ buy it.  I know lots of people (gay and straight) who are practicing Christians and they do not make it a point to announce their alleged Christianity in settings where it is inappropriate to do so. (Is a bodybuilding website or competition the right venue to declare one’s religion?)  The Christians I respect show their faith through their behavior… the values they hold… the way they treat other people…

The last thing I want to hear is a steroid (ab)using bodybuilder who “private poses” on the side when his wife isn’t looking declaring his “Christianity.”

OK, how about this:  some people do it for "subtle evangelism."
                             some do it to act superior
                             some do it because they just talk a lot
                             some do it because that's the most important thing in their life
                             etc etc
Why shouldn't people have a right to declare their religion in any venue?  Who cares?  I guess I don't understand why it bothers you so much Bay. 

"Is a bodybuilding website the right venue to declare one's relig?" = All kinds of things are declared on here that have nothing to do w/bodybuilding. 

[BayGBM]

I never said they didn’t have “the right” to do so; I merely question the credibility of those who do.  In my experience, the people who often do this tend to be very poorly schooled in Christ’s teachings, his life, or the history of the gospels.  And they lead lives that would make Jesus shed many a tear.  In other words, they tend to be very cosmetic Christians. 

I happen to have some experience in hermeneutics and whenever I engage people on the subject the veil of their brand of Christianity quickly gives way to ignorance.  Christianity for most of these people (the people who talk about it so much) is little more than a window treatment; they know and care little about the substance of the faith.

If I want to know about precontest dieting, I’ll go to a bodybuilder.  If I want to know about Christianity I’ll turn to a more informed source than a bodybuilder prostituting himself for a few dollars. 

We have another saying where I come from:  the empty barrel makes the most noise.

[Butterbean]

 hermeneutics

I had to look this word up!

  If I want to know about Christianity I’ll turn to a more informed source than a bodybuilder prostituting himself for a few dollars. 

I think that's a wise positition to take.  The best source IMO, is to read the bible yourself. 

[Dos Equis]

That’s a nice spin, but I don’t’ buy it.  I know lots of people (gay and straight) who are practicing Christians and they do not make it a point to announce their alleged Christianity in settings where it is inappropriate to do so. (Is a bodybuilding website or competition the right venue to declare one’s religion?)  The Christians I respect show their faith through their behavior… the values they hold… the way they treat other people…

The last thing I want to hear is a steroid (ab)using bodybuilder who “private poses” on the side when his wife isn’t looking declaring his “Christianity.”

I view this a couple ways.  On one hand, I think athletes often exploit religion.  This might make another good topic, but I really hate when players thank God for helping them knock someone else's block off.  The praying in the end zone is nonsense.  The "God helped me win" language is nonsense.  A bodybuilder who broke the law to achieve his or her physique thanking God for success is nonsense.  But I digress.   

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with someone being happy about their faith and wanting to share it with others. 

That said, I don't wear my religion on my sleeve and, absent a forum like this where people come to discuss a religious topic, I don't talk about religion unless some asks me.  I'm a firm believer in others seeing God in your conduct. 

[Faust]

Well, the fundamental question here is: what is a sin?

For me, its not clear-cut, not black/white. Eg lying: normally i dont agree with it, but there are tons of situation where imo it's better to ly than tell the truth. Or stealing: what if you steal to save a 1000 orphans from famine?

See, it's a grey area. This is off course a bit confusing, that's why some hardcore religious loons go back to the "source" and try to interpret everything literally. Just to avoid confusion, and not to think for themselves. 

For me a true christian is somebody who helps his fellow man, who is positive and understanding. Too bad, a lot of the self-proclaimed "christians" are assholes, judgemental and dogmatic. Worst of all is when they are fundamentalists.

Also: religion is a PERSONAL matter, i hate it when they're claiming, god did this, god did that,.. God helped me win (so ... he helped the other one lose?). Keep your religion to yourself, unless you're being asked for it, plz.

[OzmO]

What if you supplied alcohol for a party and people got drunk? Would that be a sin?

[Dos Equis]

Well, the fundamental question here is: what is a sin?

For me, its not clear-cut, not black/white. Eg lying: normally i dont agree with it, but there are tons of situation where imo it's better to ly than tell the truth. Or stealing: what if you steal to save a 1000 orphans from famine?

See, it's a grey area. This is off course a bit confusing, that's why some hardcore religious loons go back to the "source" and try to interpret everything literally. Just to avoid confusion, and not to think for themselves. 

For me a true christian is somebody who helps his fellow man, who is positive and understanding. Too bad, a lot of the self-proclaimed "christians" are assholes, judgemental and dogmatic. Worst of all is when they are fundamentalists.

Also: religion is a PERSONAL matter, i hate it when they're claiming, god did this, god did that,.. God helped me win (so ... he helped the other one lose?). Keep your religion to yourself, unless you're being asked for it, plz.

I think the Bible defines sin as "transgression of the law," or words to that effect. 

There might be gray areas, and you can find plenty by using extraordinary hypothetical situations, but there is also a lot of black and white.  For example, the prohibition against murder, lying, stealing, adultery, and honoring your parents are pretty easy to understand and are guidelines that should govern most of our conduct.

I agree that athletes exploit religion, and that's one of my pet peeves, but I don't have a problem with people in general talking about their faith.  What's the big deal?   

[Faust]

I think the Bible defines sin as "transgression of the law," or words to that effect. 

There might be gray areas, and you can find plenty by using extraordinary hypothetical situations, but there is also a lot of black and white.  For example, the prohibition against murder, lying, stealing, adultery, and honoring your parents are pretty easy to understand and are guidelines that should govern most of our conduct.

I agree that athletes exploit religion, and that's one of my pet peeves, but I don't have a problem with people in general talking about their faith.  What's the big deal?   

There are a lot of gray areas, and you can also find plenty by using normal situations. About the black/white thing: i don't buy that. If you only see b/w that's because you're not openminded and won't look further than the obvious.

Honor your parents -> what if they treat you like shit? More than 5% of all children are abused during childhood (sexually, physically, psychologically,...)
stealing -> what if you have to steal to get some food and save yourself and your family?

See, that's what i'm saying, nothing is simple like that. You can never identify a "sin" for 100%. There is no black and white, no clear "evil".

[Dos Equis]

There are a lot of gray areas, and you can also find plenty by using normal situations. About the black/white thing: i don't buy that. If you only see b/w that's because you're not openminded and won't look further than the obvious.

Honor your parents -> what if they treat you like shit? More than 5% of all children are abused during childhood (sexually, physically, psychologically,...)
stealing -> what if you have to steal to get some food and save yourself and your family?

See, that's what i'm saying, nothing is simple like that. You can never identify a "sin" for 100%. There is no black and white, no clear "evil".

I disagree.  A disagreement over how to interpret whether certain "sins" fall into a gray areas doesn't make a person close-minded at all.   

If you are employed and well fed, decide to rob a 7-11, shoot and kill the cashier, and walk out with the money, that is stealing and murder.  Pretty black and white IMO.  I'd say most of murder, stealing, etc. in this country is pretty black and white.  Most of the people who have committed these crimes and have been caught, tried, and convicted, deserve it.     

How about the 95 percent of kids who are not abused?  Should they honor their parents?

A lot of these things are pretty simple.  Don't go buy a gun and shoot and kill someone who cuts you off in a traffic lane.  How complicated is that?  Tell the truth when you're putting your resume together.  Pretty simple.  Don't steal from your hardworking neighbor.  Easy.     
   

[Faust]

I disagree.  A disagreement over how to interpret whether certain "sins" fall into a gray areas doesn't make a person close-minded at all.   

If you are employed and well fed, decide to rob a 7-11, shoot and kill the cashier, and walk out with the money, that is stealing and murder.  Pretty black and white IMO.  I'd say most of murder, stealing, etc. in this country is pretty black and white.  Most of the people who have committed these crimes and have been caught, tried, and convicted, deserve it.     

How about the 95 percent of kids who are not abused?  Should they honor their parents?

A lot of these things are pretty simple.  Don't go buy a gun and shoot and kill someone who cuts you off in a traffic lane.  How complicated is that?  Tell the truth when you're putting your resume together.  Pretty simple.  Don't steal from your hardworking neighbor.  Easy.         

Sure, a lot of times it's easy to tell right from wrong. I was just pointing out the times where it isnt. Just to prove that it isnt a perfect theory, the bible or whatever book can never be perfect. I believe that people can find guidance in there, but what i don't like is when they act like it's the "one and only answer" -> the fundamentalist approach.

Do i try to sympathise with a pedophile? Hell no.
I'm just saying there's more to a lot of "sins", and i wont be judging people as quickly as some others ...

[Dos Equis]

Sure, a lot of times it's easy to tell right from wrong. I was just pointing out the times where it isnt. Just to prove that it isnt a perfect theory, the bible or whatever book can never be perfect. I believe that people can find guidance in there, but what i don't like is when they act like it's the "one and only answer" -> the fundamentalist approach.

Do i try to sympathise with a pedophile? Hell no.
I'm just saying there's more to a lot of "sins", and i wont be judging people as quickly as some others ...

I agree.    I agree that some people take rigid positions on right/wrong when certain conduct truly does fall into a gray area.  In those situations, your conscience has to be your guide IMO. 

[gracie bjj]

ive battled with these issues over the years myself,ive been trying to live a christian life for many years and fell off the wagon afew times but always get back on and try again,i remember when i was stickin pins in my ass then sittin down right after and readin scripture,it all boils down to how your conscious is dealin with it,in my case i was able to deal with it