Why should we stay in Iraq?

[trab]

Because we're so fucked up there we have to stay, the next Pres. will get us out. 

Dont bet on it friend. Oil. Lots of Oil. That region must be kept secure.
You stop and think for a min what happens when we leave?

[OzmO]

Dont bet on it friend. Oil. Lots of Oil. That region must be kept secure.
You stop and think for a min what happens when we leave?

Someone else profits from the oil.   That's all.

[trab]

Someone else profits from the oil.   That's all.

Picture if you will the mouth of the gulf close off for a month...
Empty grocery shelves..

[OzmO]

Picture if you will the mouth of the gulf close off for a month...
Empty grocery shelves..

Picture if you will, someone choosing not to profit.........

[trab]

Picture if you will, someone choosing not to profit.........

Right, profit motive heals all, in TIME. But the Talliban & Co WANTS  to live in the Stone Age, they'z very comfortable there. That Nut running Iran is NOT concerned about $'z, and the word is that a lot of the wealthy
mullahs got they Ca$h out of the country when he took power. He wants to bring back from the dead that
9th century Imam cat who fell down the well and believes thaaat will usher in a new era of Islamic power after armagedon.
He wants to go out in a blaze of glory and take everyone along 4 the ride.
That's a major player who we really are fighting in Iraq.

[24KT]

Picture if you will the mouth of the gulf close off for a month...
Empty grocery shelves..

It could get even worse than that. Most businesses will be shut down, ...except perhaps those of us who are priviledged enough to telecommute, ...or who work from home.

How is any kind of a business going to stay open if their employees cannot get to work.

You got a little garden out back? ... It would be the grapes of wrath revisited¹⁰   

[Archer77]

Because an immediate pullout would result in a full-scale civil war and completely destabilize the country. 

Unfortunately there already is a civil war. 

[trab]

It could get even worse than that. Most businesses will be shut down, ...except perhaps those of us who are priviledged enough to telecommute, ...or who work from home.

How is any kind of a business going to stay open if their employees cannot get to work.

You got a little garden out back? ... It would be the grapes of wrath revisited¹⁰   

Its really not a pretty picture and I think its a matter of time. The Oil Pros like Boone Pickens say, if we'd lose Saudi, even for awhile, oil almost doubles. That's $6.50 gal gas.
At thet point, frankly, a lot of Americans may as well not bother going to work. Theyd need a loan to cover the fule.

THis BS aint about Democracy or Human rights, thats all smokescreen. Its about keeping the cars and factories running
around the planet.  Religion is a complication.

[Archer77]

This is an interesting point. At what point do we let the Iraqi's settle this for themselves? We got rid of Saddam when is it their turn to figure out who runs the country and how it will be run?

At some point the Iraqi's have to take control of their own destiny.

Unfortunately we went in there with the intentions(as it was sold) to bring democracy to leave without accomplishing that would make us liars.  Also, when you refer to Iraqis taking control over there own destiny to whom to you  refer, Sunnis, Shia, Kurds, Secularists.  Thats part of the problem.  You have different groups of people with different visions of how the country should be fighting over it.  I think that fits the qualities of a civil war.

[trab]

Democracy has nothing to do w/ why we there.

[Undercover Supp Guy]

You stop and think for a min what happens when we leave?

No more dead Americans?

[trab]

No more dead Americans?

That is a very good point, untill we go back to a even biger mess. Totally F'd up oil supply.
Neutron bombs need a live test IMO. Boots on the ground wont work. Kill them all if necessary, sorry.

[24KT]

Its really not a pretty picture and I think its a matter of time. The Oil Pros like Boone Pickens say, if we'd lose Saudi, even for awhile, oil almost doubles. That's $6.50 gal gas.
At thet point, frankly, a lot of Americans may as well not bother going to work. Theyd need a loan to cover the fule.

THis BS aint about Democracy or Human rights, thats all smokescreen. Its about keeping the cars and factories running around the planet.  Religion is a complication.

Absolutely! And in the meantime, we need to lower our fuel consumption. The less fuel we consume, the less demand, and the more stable our economy will be. Rising fuel costs have such a devastating impact, not only on the consumer at the pump, ...the bigger cost which most people don't see is what it does to our entire infrastructure. Everything goes up as a result, because those end costs are factored into the prices we as consumers pay.

ie: Your protein powders and your bodybuilding supps go up in price cause it costs more for the truckers to get it to you.  Transportation companies who are able to get their goods across the country at the lowest cost per mile, are the big winners in times of higher fuel prices. They can put in the lowest bids without having to tack on a "fuel surcharge". Anyone who has traveled lately has seen that one. Infact, if you've mailed a letter lately, you've seen postal rates go up. Again "fuel surcharge".  I know Walmart has a pretty low cost per mile to get goods into their stores.     Hmmm...  in Texas, ...they call that a clue. 

I had posted the below response to a prediction of $10/gallon gas in another thread, but for some reason, it was deleted twice, with no explaination from any political MOD as to why. Despite a request for clarification from a mod none was forthcoming, so i only assume it was a technical glitch. I think it appropriate for this thread as well, because it speaks to the heart of what trab is saying. It's about keeping the cars and factories around the world running. It's so much bigger than simply crying "I'm paying too much" because as we've seen recently, there will come a time when you will be happy to pay it. You will be happy to even have gas to put in your car, and happy that someone has gas to get your goods to market. I don't know about you, ...but overalls aren't my best look. I don't see myself growing my own food anytime soon. I want those shelves in my local supermarket well stocked with produce that doesn't cost and arm & a leg to get it there.

...then watch as people are paying 10 bucks for gas...

By then, ...many of us will be filthy F-ing RICH, ...never having to pay-out-of-pocket for fuel ever again!

Currently, there are 3 types of people in this world:

• Those who watch things happen 
• Those who make things happen
• ...and those who wonder... what happened?

I believe that in the future, there will also be 3 different types of people:

• Those who will continue to pay full price for fuel @ $10/gallon, or possibly more 
• Those who will save money on fuel, while simultaneously reducing emissions from their vehicles
• Those of us who will save on fuel, AND make money, expanding the market for our products

$200 million in sales in 18 months... we're currently on track to do over $200 million in this our 2^nd year
...Doing business in an unprecedented 192 countries globally... Don't say you were never notified...

ps - There's a reason we've experienced so much success... wanna know what it is? ...then click here

[GroinkTropin]

Discuss.....

Try to be realistic 

Good job stealing my old avatar buddy.

[24KT]

I'd like to add one more thing, ...when I posted the above I was accused of blatant spamming by goatboy to which I responded:

Not at all Goatboy. That would be starting a thread for the sole purpose of saying buy this product.

What I did was echo AS's sentiments, because I believe there will come a time when North American's will be paying $10/gallon or more, for fuel. They're already there in Turkey, and in Ireland, ...and it's only a matter of time before that occurs here too. Here in Canada we are already at $5/ gallon.

All that would be required for it to reach $10/gallon is for it to double in price.

Considering what has happened to fuel prices these last few months, ...let alone years,
...fuel prices doubling, is hardly a preposterous or implausible occurence is it? Infact, it's pretty much assured. And factoring in what hurricane season may have in store for some of the gulf refineries... it doesn't look promising.

I sincerely believe there will be 3 types of people. I say this not because I have a financial interest in these products, but quite the contrary. I have a financial interest in these products, ...because of my belief level.

You can count me in as part of that 3^rd. group of people inciteful enough to put all the myriad pieces of the puzzle together to see the big picture. People smart enough and decisive enough to take action. We position ourselves in such a way that the wind blows into our sails to carry us whichever way we choose to steer, ...as opposed to that group of people who constantly get knocked about by life, always trying to pee in the wind, letting the breeze blow them willy nilly, or worse, ...running in a particular direction, while "buckin' and frontin' a headwind" (I just love trucker terminology) 

So ya, it's my learned opinion that I will be part of the group that will not only be able to save money on fuel, while being able to reduce vehicular emissions into the atmosphere,, this will also enable me to do my part to combat global climate change & ground level ozone, ...AND to also make money expanding the market for these incredibly effective and much needed products around the globe. Bonus! Lucky me. 

The next president of the USA will have to deal with all these issues, ...and I think Hilary Clinton will be very adept at doing so, ...moreso than the current one in office. I still remember her taking on Dick Armey in her first few year in the White House, ...and that was when she was green. Now, after 8 years in the White House, and 8 years in the Senate, ...she knows her way around Washington, ...and can probably do much, much better at tackling some of the urgent issues that need to be addressed, ...one of which is how to steer the ship and manage the country in a time of peak oil.

I'd love to see AS's vote go to Hilary if she is the democratic candidate, ...as well as HH6's.

***********

ps - I would like for this to be the last post I am required to make about this. ThankYou

[Dos Equis]

Unfortunately there already is a civil war. 

True.  It is pretty much contained and will probably explode as soon as we leave.

[Undercover Supp Guy]

That is a very good point, untill we go back to a even biger mess. Totally F'd up oil supply.
Neutron bombs need a live test IMO. Boots on the ground wont work. Kill them all if necessary, sorry.

Well we haven't had a Neutron bomb for at least 15 years so good luck on that one.  2ndly, the kill em all theory is the one we started out with on this mission and it's not working.  As far as an F'd up oil supply there really is no such thing because the Saudi's control the oil and the only thing they care about besides themselves is money so oil will always flow as long as people continue to buy it.

[24KT]

True.  It is pretty much contained and will probably explode as soon as we leave.

Beach, it's not contained! You've been fed a bunch of garbage.

Just step back for a minute. Why is it the rest of the world knew what you Americans are only now just finding out about? It's the same with the surge. The rest of the world knows what is happening, but you are still listening to the lies and the propaganda disseminated from FOX News. It is ALREADY exploding... EVERYDAY!

More than likely it will come to a head after the US is gone, however, the US presence is dragging it out. Far worse, the US presence is also "fertilizing" more & more terrorists. I put it in quotes cause that's what the NIE chose to call it. Remember that?



If the US wasn't there, ...it would all be over in very short order, ...and a winner will emerge.

The problem is, the US already knows who would win if that were to happen, and the natural power vacuum would tip the balance of power away from the status quo into an area that certain people do not want. But the longer they stall, the more power that side gains.

The challenge thereto is that Iran has learned the lessons of it's own history very well,
...and is preparing itself to face the potential threat on it's doors. Will post more about that later.

If Iranian society is powered by nuclear energy, and without the need for fossil fuels, an embargo of the straits of Hormuz through which a good percentage of the world fuel supply flows, would not impact them as greatly as it would a nation whose infrastructure is dependant on the flow of oil.

[Dos Equis]

Beach, it's not contained! You've been fed a bunch of garbage.

Just step back for a minute. Why is it the rest of the world knew what you Americans are only now just finding out about? It's the same with the surge. The rest of the world knows what is happening, but you are still listening to the lies and the propaganda disseminated from FOX News. It is ALREADY exploding... EVERYDAY!

More than likely it will come to a head after the US is gone, however, the US presence is dragging it out. Far worse, the US presence is also "fertilizing" more & more terrorists. I put it in quotes cause that's what the NIE chose to call it. Remember that?



If the US wasn't there, ...it would all be over in very short order, ...and a winner will emerge.

The problem is, the US already knows who would win if that were to happen, and the natural power vacuum would tip the balance of power away from the status quo into an area that certain people do not want. But the longer they stall, the more power that side gains.

The challenge thereto is that Iran has learned the lessons of it's own history very well,
...and is preparing itself to face the potential threat on it's doors. Will post more about that later.

If Iranian society is powered by nuclear energy, and without the need for fossil fuels, an embargo of the straits of Hormuz through which a good percentage of the world fuel supply flows, would not impact them as greatly as it would a nation whose infrastructure is dependant on the flow of oil.

You might have a point if I only got my news from Fox, but that's not the case.  I get my news from liberal and conservative sources and from the guys on the ground.  It isn't a full-scale civil war yet.  I trust the soldiers on the ground more than you.  Sorry.    

I'm on my way to the air force base to meet a very close friend who is returning from Iraq today.  I'll ask him. 

[Undercover Supp Guy]

I think I would probably have to agree with the jaguar lady and her arginine with respect to this:

If the US wasn't there, ...it would all be over in very short order, ...and a winner will emerge.

and the winner won't be the people we need winning.  Just by sheer #'s the shiites win and then Iran has a yellow brick road right through Iraq to the rest of the Muslim nutcases in Syria.  It's a real mother f'er..

[24KT]

Well we haven't had a Neutron bomb for at least 15 years so good luck on that one.  2ndly, the kill em all theory is the one we started out with on this mission and it's not working.  As far as an F'd up oil supply there really is no such thing because the Saudi's control the oil and the only thing they care about besides themselves is money so oil will always flow as long as people continue to buy it.

...but at what price?

I think I had said in another thread, there is the possibility that north America will soon go the way of some countries where only the extremely rich will own cars, ...everyone else will be on donkeys or horseback.

[24KT]

You might have a point if I only got my news from Fox, but that's not the case.  I get my news from liberal and conservative sources and from the guys on the ground.  It isn't a full-scale civil war yet.  I trust the soldiers on the ground more than you.  Sorry.    

Sorry... even though it was what I said, ...I didn't mean to imply that YOU only got stuff from FOX. I know you are more learned than that. I meant it in a general sense.

I'm on my way to the air force base to meet a very close friend who is returning from Iraq today.  I'll ask him. 

Fabulous!!! Give him a big kiss from me, and tell him there's a Leftist, hippie, tree-hugging, granola crunching, vegetarian, Liberal from Canada who is very happy he's home. 

[Undercover Supp Guy]

...but at what price?

I think I had said in another thread, there is the possibility that north America will soon go the way of some countries where only the extremely rich will own cars, ...everyone else will be on donkeys or horseback.

Whatever price the market will bare until it can't bare it no more pumkin...

[24KT]

I think I would probably have to agree with the jaguar lady and her arginine with respect to this:

That made me bust out laughing so hard, I could just pee.

and the winner won't be the people we need winning.  Just by sheer #'s the shiites win and then Iran has a yellow brick road right through Iraq to the rest of the Muslim nutcases in Syria.  It's a real mother f'er..

It gets even better than that... The Saudi's have officially gone on record as saying that if the US leaves Iraq,
...they will "aggressively" back the Sunni minority. The same people who were in power before the invasion.

Picture this little scenario: The Shiite's are the majority and aligned with a rich prosperous Iraq. the Sunni's are the minority, and backed by rich prosperous Saudi's.

Now we have Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia the three biggest oil producers in the world, locked in a vicious war.

Do you think the price of gas is bad so far... hang on, ...you ain't seen nothing yet.

...who are you going to turn to... the 4th major oil producer... Nigeria? ...a country already experiencing violence and a huge impetus to nationalize their oil fields. There are some serious people over there killing foreign oil workers. They want Nigerian oil wealth to benefit Nigeria, ...besides, Nigeria is already doing a very brisk trade with China.
My money would be on China getting Nigerian oil before we North Americans get it... let's move on shall we... there's always... Venezuela! 

Either way you cut it, ...it's a mess, ...or an opportunity. 

The Chinese as well as Sanskrit symbol for a stumbling block or challenge, when flipped translates to opportunity.

I guess, since I do not have the solution to the disgusting mess in Iraq, I'll look for the opportunity in all of this,
...but that's just me. If life gives me lemons, ...not only will I make yummy thirst quenching lemonade, ...I will plant the seeds, that will produce more lemons, ...that will make more lemonade, and yield even more seeds, ...which will be planted, which will produce even more lemons... til pretty soon, there'll be over a hundred thousand thriving lemon groves, and producing over 100 million glasses of thirst quenching lemonade all over the world.
...192 countries in only 18 months so far 

[Undercover Supp Guy]

The Saudi's have officially gone on record as saying that if the US leaves Iraq,
...they will "aggressively" back the Sunni minority.

The Saudi's are full of shit, all they care about is money.  They'll insulate themselves from the insanity as best they can and turn a blind eye like they always do.  Don't hold your breath if you expect them to save the day..