Dan Duchaine thread

[be back]

EVERY guy you mentioned in this post is a chronically-angry, disgruntled misfit.

read some more of his post history,

"birds of a feather flock together"

[Griffith]

Is it true that he used Nolvadex long-term to help with dieting?

[ESFitness]

Have anyone of you tried nubain? It sounds like a bitch to inject that shit ten times aday like Mark Kerr did. Some people say it dont have to be that way and can be used in a safe way. Never tried it myself.

Search my posts on it.

[youandme]

Have anyone of you tried nubain? It sounds like a bitch to inject that shit ten times aday like Mark Kerr did. Some people say it dont have to be that way and can be used in a safe way. Never tried it myself.

10 times a day is about right. Usually 45 to 2 hours till next fix.

[BB]

Is it true that he used Nolvadex long-term to help with dieting?

He was big on Nolvadex and Proviron (males only) if one could afford it. If not, he want you to stay on the basics - clen, ephedrine, yohimbine, etc.... Nolvadex was dosed at 20 - 40 mgs a day when dieting. He also claimed that he stayed on 10 mgs a day for 2 years plus with no ill effects. He felt that it allowed him to stay leaner year round.

Edit - He mentioned that Proviron was too androgenic for women in his opinion. Nolvadex leans women out, and you had to watch it, especially in regards to facial fat too I remember he said.

[tres_taco_combo]

He was big on Nolvadex and Proviron (males only) if one could afford it. If not, he want you to stay on the basics - clen, ephedrine, yohimbine, etc.... Nolvadex was dosed at 20 - 40 mgs a day when dieting. He also claimed that he stayed on 10 mgs a day for 2 years plus with no ill effects. He felt that it allowed him to stay leaner year round.

Edit - He mentioned that Proviron was too androgenic for women in his opinion. Nolvadex leans women out, and you had to watch it, especially in regards to facial fat too I remember he said.

yes he was big on nolva. i understand the science behind it. it is a cancer drug correct? 10mg daily for 2 years.

if a male runs proviron that would "shut you down" correct? dht conversion too?
25 mg a day?
i hear your libido will go through the roof - i need more consistent pussy then haha

[Griffith]

He was big on Nolvadex and Proviron (males only) if one could afford it. If not, he want you to stay on the basics - clen, ephedrine, yohimbine, etc.... Nolvadex was dosed at 20 - 40 mgs a day when dieting. He also claimed that he stayed on 10 mgs a day for 2 years plus with no ill effects. He felt that it allowed him to stay leaner year round.

Edit - He mentioned that Proviron was too androgenic for women in his opinion. Nolvadex leans women out, and you had to watch it, especially in regards to facial fat too I remember he said.

That's interesting, thanks!

[BB]

yes he was big on nolva. i understand the science behind it. it is a cancer drug correct? 10mg daily for 2 years.

if a male runs proviron that would "shut you down" correct? dht conversion too?
25 mg a day?
i hear your libido will go through the roof - i need more consistent pussy then haha

Yep. Nolvadex was the big one. Proviron was sort of of a love/hate thing. He really thought the shutdown was too much for women and regular people, but for males he did say positive things to say about libido on it.

The actual order of anti estrogens in his mind was - Nolvadex, Teslac, then Proviron. Teslac was nixed because of cost and availability.

He also mention that you needed to watch women coming off of Nolvadex because he's seen them go into a period of depression afterward.

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Bare with me, since people seem interested, I dug through my files, and found Duchaine's Anti Estrogen article, I'll post it here -

 Page 1 - One of the dirty secrets of bodybuilding that we try to keep away from the rest of the world is this: real men have tits. Many of the great bodybuilders, past and present, have had swelling of the male breast tissue, but as soon as they could afford it, they had the offending tissue surgically removed. (I’m talking about a lot of bodybuilders, virtually all the pros!) These affected male bodybuilders and the garden-variety female stripper could probably sustain a spirited conversation regarding where the incision should be placed: “Whatta ya think, should it be under the nipple or in the armpit?”

Big men having breasts isn’t so much a gender-identity crisis (although I do have my doubts when these same men wear
thong underwear so there aren’t any lines under their Spandex): it’s a steroid-use issue.

Years ago, when Rodale’s Men’s Health magazine’s premier issue appeared, it became the instant laughingstock in the bodybuilding world when the editors proclaimed their magazine wouldn’t have any ’roided-out freaks featured in it—too bad the cover model had such raging gynecomastia that if you scratched the cover, you’d smell milk. The demon of this girlie-man syndrome is estrogen, the female hormone. Technically speaking, “estrogen” is a general term: there are two distinct types (in both women and men). The primary and most potent type in women is estradiol which is produced mostly in the ovaries from progesterone. Smaller amounts can be made from testosterone by an enzyme conversion.

In the male body, all the estradiol is made from enzymes called“aromatases.” Even the estradiol secreted from the testicles came from testosterone in the Leydig cells which was converted to estradiol in the Sertoli cells. The other, weaker estrogen is estrone, converted from an adrenal androgen called androstenedione. Estrogen occurs naturally in men, and it’s there for some very good reasons. Many areas in the brain have estrogen receptors. Since 1981, researchers have suspected that estrogen regulates luteinizing hormone (and ultimately testosterone) in animals 6,15,16 and in human males. 2,4,8,18 At about the same time I proposed that minimizing estrogen would be a benign but aggressive way to boost natural production of testosterone, German researchers published similar findings.12 Estrogen also plays a part in controlling libido, 1,7,19 maintaining desirable levels of the high-density lipoprotein (HDL—the “good” cholesterol),2,18 and regulating fetal development in the placenta. 13 And as I’ve pointed out previously, estrogen and testosterone (along with progesterone) work synergistically—without each others’ help, muscle doesn’t grow - So our male balancing act is this: we’d like to minimize estrogen, just enough to increase testosterone and avoid gynecomastia, all the while maintaining our libidos and HDL levels. The steroid user has two options: either avoid the anabolic steroids that can convert to estrogen or select an anti-estrogen. Even the steroidfree bodybuilder would like to raise testosterone, and anti-estrogens present a good option. Because anti-estrogens are routinely used (as the therapy of choice) to combat estrogen-responsive breast cancers, we have a number of options. There are four broad categories of anti estrogens: non-steroidal antagonists, steroidal anti-aromatases, synthetic anti-aromatases, and naturally occurring anti-aromatases.

Let’s take a look at some -

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Non-Steroidal Estrogen Antagonists

Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate) is the most familiar antiestrogen in the bodybuilding world. It’s one of the two commercially
available non-steroidal antagonists (the other being Clomid). Although first synthesized in 1964, tamoxifen citrate wasn’t used in America until the early ’70’s. A hormone antagonist structurally fits onto a hormone receptor, so the similar-looking active hormone is displaced.

Theoretically, the antagonist hormone should have no effect at the receptor, imparting no activity. In the real world, hormone antagonists have been problematic. Nolvadex is a classic example of an antagonist that can give wildly dissimilar results. In chickens, it acts as a perfect antagonist. In mice, it’s a powerful estrogen. In rats and humans, Nolvadex can act as an antagonist in some cells and as an estrogen in others. Within a few years, the next generation of tamoxifens,14 with names like droloxifene, will have greater antagonist actions and no estrogenic effects. But for now, for most women, Nolvadex will effectively block estrogen in breast tissue. However, a few women are tamoxifen resistant and can actually see an increase of estrogen in the blood instead of a decrease. Remember, an antagonist is necessary if the woman still has functioning ovaries as none of the anti-aromatases block the conversion of progesterone to estradiol.

Anecdotally, in men, Nolvadex does diminish the size of swollen breast tissue but usually only if the gynecomastia hasn’t progressed to the point that benign tumors have formed. In that case, surgery is the better (perhaps the only) option. There’s no research showing that Nolvadex acts as an antagonist in the brain’s estrogen receptors which govern the various releasing hormones that regulate testosterone. In other words, Nolvadex shouldn’t affect your production of testosterone. Interestingly, some male bodybuilders comment that use of Nolvadexsometimes impedes muscular growth(although the opposite has been reported in women). This is somewhat of a mystery. As a cancer treatment, the dosage is one 10-mg tablet twice a day. There’s been a continuing study on tamoxifen as a long-term cancer preventative, but the initial results have not been promising since Nolvadex acts as an estrogen in the uterus and can therefore accelerate
uterine cancers.

In female bodybuilding, Nolvadex is still being used as a weak repartitioning agent to assist in fat loss. It is mildly effective in this regard, but over the years, Nolvadex has lost its cost effectiveness in terms of perceived results versus dollars spent. Nolvadex is still the bodybuilder’s favorite anti-estrogen. It’s used by both men and women as a precontest hardening agent. Male steroid users use Nolvadexto prevent gynecomastia or to reduce existing (benign) tumors. Since this anti-estrogen seems to be very site specific to breast tissue, it’s probably the best choice for this purpose. Although many users will see a slight elevation of serum testosterone levels, there’s also an increase of serum estrogen levels.

Overall, I would grade Nolvadex a B for men trying to prevent gyno.


Clomid (clomifene), developed in 1959, was originally intended to be an estrogen antagonist. It’s a dual-function antagonist/agonist, as it both blocks estrogen at the receptor and acts as a mock luteinizing hormone by increasing estrogen production in the ovaries. When it was learned that long-term use of Clomid in women caused ovarian cysts, Clomid was reclassified to a short-term (five-day duration) fertility drug. However, in men, Clomid has a very nice dual function: it blocks estrogen and increases testosterone.

This is a relatively recent discovery, as the initial research was published in 1984. And there are no reports of any such things as testicular cysts. Clomid seems safe as a long-term therapy in men; however, we have no studies showing whether or not Clomid suppresses libido, nor have I heard any anecdotal evidence on this subject.

I’d grade Clomid a solid B as it can help block estrogen and elevate anabolic hormone levels.

The real practical problem with using Clomid is cost. It costs about the same, per tablet, as Teslac (about $5 a tablet). The use of Clomid by women is covered by most medical insurance. Most male bodybuilders use two tablets a day. The Mexican versions are attractively priced, though.

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Steroidal Anti-Aromatases

Proviron (mesterolone) is a steroidal anti-aromatase. Steroidal anti-aromatases are usually androgens that compete with testosterone and androstenedione at the cytochrome- 450 enzyme level, transforming the compound, so it has no estrogenic activity. The best known bodybuilding anti-aromatase is Proviron.

The deficiencies of Proviron are obvious: as an androgen, the steroid will bind at androgen-sensitive areas and impart androgenic side effects. For men, this doesn’t seem like a big deal; however, Proviron has a higher affinity to skeletal muscle testosterone receptors, displacing most other anabolic steroids but imparting no anabolic effect. This means that it could compete with steroids for receptor sites on the muscle and perhaps slow any potential muscle growth. Proviron is used by both male and female bodybuilders as a precontest hardening agent and as a gyno preventative (for males). It’s not the best anti-estrogen for women because it’s as androgenic as testosterone.

However, it’s not a bad short-term choice for steroid-using men, but it may displace anabolic steroids at the muscle-cell receptors. This drug is the most popular with Anadrol-50 users. I’ll grade it a C+.

5-Alpha-Androstenedione is a very curious and exciting anti-aromatase which might have more promise than “Flavone X” (chrysin). In the placenta, estrogen production is regulated by natural adrenal hormones— metabolites of DHEA. The placenta synthesizes estrone from androstenedione, and this adrenal androgen is also the major source of estrogen in post-menopausal women. The same enzyme, 5-alpha-reductase, that turns testosterone into the super-androgen dihydrotestosterone (DHT) will transform androstenedione into 5-alpha-androstenedione (let’s call it 5AA). In laboratory studies on animal tissue,13 5AA inhibits estrogen conversion from androstenedione by 88%. This is a very high inhibition rate, and the beauty of it is that under the new dietary-supplement laws, 5AA is allowed, and its synthesis is much simpler than 7-hydroflavone (chrysin).

However, there are no human studies on 5AA, and we have no idea what kind of therapeutic dosage is needed to achieve a moderate inhibition of aromatase. And subsequent enzyme-driven conversions might turn 5AA into an inactive compound. If there were ever a compound crying for a study on men, 5AA is it. One more cool thing: 5AA is one step away from boldenone undecylenate (Equipoise). So if 5AA were ever to become commercially available, you’d see a lot of bootleg Equipoise being made. Although 5AA probably has the same effects as many of the other substances discussed in this article, we haven’t seen any human studies on it, so it remains a great mystery. Nonetheless, it’s not a prescription item.

I grade it an optimistic B+.

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Synthetic Anti-Aromatases -

Teslac, the trade name for testolactone, is the oldest of the synthetic antiaromatases (first synthesized in 1953), and it seems to be the hardest to get. You might call it a steroidal antiaromatase since it’s made from progesterone that has been fermented by bacteria, and structurally, it looks somewhat like an androgen, so much so that in America, Teslac is considered a Schedule III anabolic
steroid!

However, Teslac doesn’t have any androgenic effects (although it does raise testosterone in men). Unlike the other synthetic anti-aromatase (aminoglutethimide), it doesn’t seem to have any spill-over effect into other enzyme systems. I’ve yet to find Teslac outside of the United States and Germany, and in both countries, the price is $5+ per tablet. Since Teslac has a very short duration of activity, typically four 250-mg doses are needed per day.

Teslac has been the anti-aromatase of choice in many of the research studies on men in which estrogen’s effects on libido and HDL’s were evaluated. Other than its exorbitant price and frequent dosing, Teslac seems to be a very effective drug with limited side effects (although sometimes it will reduce libido or mess up one’s cholesterol profile).

On paper, Teslac always seems to be the best of the anti-estrogens for bodybuilders because it prevents the formation of estrogen, rather than dealing with estrogen after it’s produced. It’s not a good choice for female bodybuilders because most of the estrogen in young women is from progesterone in the ovaries, and Teslac doesn’t affect this type of estrogen. Since this drug costs about $25 a day, most can’t afford it anyway.

If it weren’t so damn expensive and hard to get, I’d grade it an A!

Cytadren (aminoglutethimide) - is the shotgun of anti-aromatases. When the dosage reaches between one and two grams, many other enzyme conversions are adversely affected. These include a lowering of aldosterone, cortisol, and even testosterone itself. If a woman is pre-menopausal and is resistant to tamoxifen, Cytadren can be (literally) a lifesaver, asa dosage of about two grams a day will stopDHEA secretion, 9 so no subsequent hormones (including all estrogens and progesterone) can be synthesized. I do feel that Cytadren might be an effective anti-aromatase for men.

Remember, when trying to eliminate estrogen, you must be very careful about what you wish for. If you pick avery powerful anti-aromatase which results in nonexistent estrogen levels in the blood, you’ll definitely be impotent, at risk for heart disease (from low HDL’s), less smart (estrogen in the brain enhances intelligence), and prone to (of all anti things) osteoporosis. A recent study examined male and female siblings born without aromatase.8 The male grew to well over seven feet tall (estrogen closes the growing ends of the long bones, signaling these bones to stop growing longer), but his bones were soft and spongy.

With Cytadren, at a very low dosage of 250 mg a day (one tablet), males will experience a slight inhibition of aromatase, enough to see a marked increase of testosterone without many other effects (or side effects). Recently, I’ve seen a black-market price of $70 for 100 tablets of Orimeten (the German version), so it seems cost effective. However, we’ll soon see better synthetic anti-aromatases. As a high-dose Cushing Syndrome drug (2,000 mg/day), Cytadren is not good for bodybuilders. But with a very small dose (250 mg/day), Cytadren will raise natural testosterone with very little, if any, bad side effects. Nonetheless, to combat gyno, Nolvadex would be the better choice since it’s breast-tissue specific.

I grade this stuff a B-.


Arimidex (anastrozole) appears to be the most potent of the new synthetic anti-aromatases.5,10,11,17 In fact, for use in males, it might be too potent! In postmenopausal women who still produce a little of their own estrogen and are fighting breast cancer, it’s almost ideal: at one milligram a day, within a matter of days, virtually all estrogens become undetectable.

The half-life is between 30 and 60(!) hours. As I’ve mentioned, Arimidex would wreak havoc on men if they were to use the one-milligram-a-day suggested dosage. I wouldn’t be surprised if the ideal dosing schedule to raise testosterone were one-quarter tablet every two days.

At this dosing schedule, Arimidex is the most cost effective of all anti-estrogens. Arimidex is the newest and most exciting anti-estrogen. Eventually, we’ll find the ideal dosage to lower estrogen enough in men to raise testosterone without shutting down libido. It’s not a good choice for female bodybuilders because plenty of estrogen is still being produced by the ovaries, and this estrogen is unaffected by Arimidex.

But it’s great for raising testosterone in men. However, we don’t know if Arimidex will reduce or prevent gynecomastia as well as Nolvadex does. I imagine that within a year or so, Nolvadex will be a has-been drug for men (but still a great choice for young women as a “hardening”agent).

I grade Arimidex an A.

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Alpha-Naphthoflavone -

If we weren’t concerned with over-the-counter legalities, alpha-naphthoflavone would be THE REAL “Flavone X.” Flavones are plant substances that exhibit antioxidant, antibiotic, and antiviral effects.3 Alpha-naphthoflavone has the most potent anti-aromatase effects;it’s ten times more potent than aminoglutethimide. But this flavone (also called 7,8 benzoflavone) doesn’t occur naturally, meaning it won’t be an allowable substance under the new dietary supplement laws. Some of the other synthetic flavones, like biochanin-A and 4-methylester of genistein, aren’t only weak antiaromatases, they also exhibit some estrogenic activity. (Brian Leibovitz was wide of the mark with his recent rant on flavones, as he confused isoflavones [which are estrogenic] with the other class of flavones.)

I grade alpha-naphthoflavone a B.

Flavone X (chrysin, 7-hydroxyflavone) - is not the most potent of the flavones, but since it’s naturally occurring (Tribestan hastrace amounts in it), its sale would be unrestricted under present laws. The projected daily dosage is one and a half grams. Although chrysin is only one-sixth as potent as the synthetic 7,8 benzoflavone, its inhibition power is still somewhat more than Cytadren’s.

However, chrysin isn’t perfect as it does exhibit some spillover inhibition with other enzyme systems, including 5-deiodase, the enzyme that converts T4 thyroid into the active T3. It would be veryinteresting to see a comparison between chrysin and the other so-called “legal” anti-aromatase, 5-alpha-androstenedione. Eventually one of these two will make it to the supplement market. But don’t be too hasty or gullible: since the article about Flavone X was published (“Hang On! Flavone X,” MM2K, May 1996), a number of fly-by-night companies have started offering their versions of Flavone X. And although Tribestan and its derivatives do have trace amounts of chrysin, there is no current pure chrysin product available, other than the raw powder sold through research chemical companies.

Chrysin appears to have all the attributes of the other anti-aromatases, such as testosterone elevation and gyno prevention, but it’s not a prescription item. However, it doesn’t seem to have an effect on female bodybuilders.

I grade chrysin an A-.

Conclusion -

A potential health problem for the human lab rats trying to elevate natural testosterone by using one of the various anti-aromatases is that hardly any of these users will have the necessary blood tests done to keep track of altered cholesterol profiles. Remember, some amount of estrogen in the male metabolism is necessary. We must, through trial and error, find an acceptable balance in regards to gym performance, bedroom performance, and health.

This is why I highly recommend that you work with a physician who will monitor your blood work while you’re experimenting with any of these compounds. Of course, there’s the rare man who doesn’t care about excess estrogen, like my friend Pete, who had such a severe case of gynecomastia that he had begun to lactate, dribbling milk off his nipples. I told Pete, “Listen, I know a great doctor in Beverly Hills who would fix that and give you credit for the operation...” He replied: “Nope, I’m gonna keep it for a while.” And then, grinning diabolically, he added: “Babs [his girlfriend] really, REALLY likes it!”

Relevant Terms...

Hardening Agent: A drug that lowers estrogen levels, so thyroid levels are elevated and aldosterone (which holds salt in the body) is reduced. In some elusive way, estrogen also allows more calories to be turned into bodyfat rather than muscle, so lowering estrogen will result in a thinner-skinned look. This helps bodybuilders attain that sought after “granular” quality which shows minute muscle fibers pushing through as if the skin were Saran Wrap.

Gynecomastia: All men have small amounts of dormant breast tissue, and if there’s enough estrogen circulating in the body, this tissue swells and develops benign tumors. If it’s simply swelling, with no hard lumps, reduce the estrogen, and the swelling willsubside. However, once lumps have formed, surgery is really the best option.

Testosterone Elevation: In men, the brain adjusts natural testosterone downward when it senses estrogen from converted testosterone (as from steroids). If you can reduce estrogen, the brain is fooled into producing more stimulating hormones. These effects have been documented for decades, but only recently have bodybuilders used them in a practical sense.

Poster's Note - Article was submitted in the interest of history. Some of it didn't work out (Flavone X, etc....), and some of it is old hat now, and some of it I just didn't remember. But this is the longest thing I remember from him on the subject. If folks read through it, and think it's just mucking up the thread, let me know, and I'll delete .

[mazrim]

He was big on Nolvadex and Proviron (males only) if one could afford it. If not, he want you to stay on the basics - clen, ephedrine, yohimbine, etc.... Nolvadex was dosed at 20 - 40 mgs a day when dieting. He also claimed that he stayed on 10 mgs a day for 2 years plus with no ill effects. He felt that it allowed him to stay leaner year round.

Edit - He mentioned that Proviron was too androgenic for women in his opinion. Nolvadex leans women out, and you had to watch it, especially in regards to facial fat too I remember he said.

It does reduce water weight a bit. Not nearly as much as adex but also some estrogen is good. Adex can be tricky to dose so I can see where Nolva may be worth a shot. Apparently that was what was used back in the day and those guys came in pretty lean. Just depends on look you want I would guess.

[ProudVirgin69]

Poster's Note - Article was submitted in the interest of history. Some of it didn't work out (Flavone X, etc....), and some of it is old hat now, and some of it I just didn't remember. But this is the longest thing I remember from him on the subject. If folks read through it, and think it's just mucking up the thread, let me know, and I'll delete .

Great stuff, thanks for posting

[falco]

Sure was skinny for being a bodybuilding guru.

That was the message: If don't have the genetics for it, forget it.

[tres_taco_combo]

It does reduce water weight a bit. Not nearly as much as adex but also some estrogen is good. Adex can be tricky to dose so I can see where Nolva may be worth a shot. Apparently that was what was used back in the day and those guys came in pretty lean. Just depends on look you want I would guess.

i am on a small dose of adex for next 3-4 weeks. trying to cut water
.25mg EOD

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Meet The Press - Dan Duchaine, by TC Luoma

Part 1

Dan Duchaine’s life has all the elements of a modern-day Oliver Twist story, with some elements of Stephen King thrown in. He was born in a small town named Biddeford, Maine—appropriately, Stephen King country—to an unwed mother who was forced to give him up for adoption because she didn’t have a job. Luckily, though, Dan was quickly adopted by a paper-mill worker and his wife. As a child, Dan was obese, nerdish, self-admittedly obnoxious, and, consequently consequently, reclusive. He had few friends and spent his time tinkering with vacuum tubes, wires, and electronic switches, actually building a crude lie detector when he was only eight years old. There were other indicators of brilliance, too. He was habitually reading adult level books and was thought by his teachers to be some sort of Wunderkind.

So as not to let his inquisitive mind wither, he was placed in advanced classes. When he was ten years old, his mother died of complications from an epileptic seizure. Two years later, his 300-lb plus father died, the victim of a chronically overworked and fatigued heart. Custody of young Dan was then given to his adoptive grandparents who lived in the same town. Amazingly Dan, already confident in his persuasive powers, convinced his grandparents to let him live in his parents’ house alone! “Don’t take me from my home,” he had whined, “I’ll miss it so much.”

And stay he did, practically raising himself and living off the Social Security checks that the state sent him every month until he was 22 years old. Dan pushed through life with no blood relations until 1988, and then, in a bizarre twist of fate, the Human Services Department of Maine called him up. They wanted to know if he wanted to meet his mother—his real mother—and his full-blooded sister. Dan found out that his blood mother had been deemed financially unfit and had to give Dan and his sister up for adoption. Within a few months of relinquishing her children to the state, she found gainful employment and went back to the orphanage to claim her children. It was too late for Dan.

Unfortunately, he had already been adopted. But his sister hadn’t. Dan agreed to meet them, and the family was reunited, albeit briefly, because Dan was about to start serving the first of two prison sentences for selling controlled substances. (The actual charge was “conspiracy to defraud the government.”) The reunion was not only brief but traumatic, too, because Dan learned that his family carried a deadly defect in their genes. His mother revealed that she had polycystic kidney disease, as did his sister Sheila. The disease is characterized by back pain, blood in the urine, and chronic infections, leading eventually to complete kidney failure. Without transplantation or dialysis, death usually occurs at an average age of 50. Subsequent tests showed that Dan had it, too.

Dan’s life history carries more unwanted baggage than Imelda Marcos’ valet. But all of his experiences have made him the man he is today—analytical, philosophical, and able to bear life’s burdens by just shrugging his formerly anabolically enhanced shoulders.

Muscle Media 2000 Editor-In-Chief, TC Luoma, met Dan near San Diego this past April. TC reports:

Dan Duchaine lives in Carlsbad, California, a quiet little ocean-side burg a few clicks north of San Diego, but I asked him if he could drive down to meet me in La Jolla, another ocean-side city in between that just so happens to be my favorite place in the world. We agreed to meet at 10:00 a.m. at “the cove,” a little outdoor park that overlooks the Pacific and is populated by seals, sea gulls, exotic plants, and a seemingly endless supply of beautiful, blond, rosy-cheeked girls on roller blades who were apparently raised exclusively on frozen yogurt.

As I walked to the park, I saw a solitary figure seated on a bench, drinking a Starbucks coffee, and throwing pieces of what looked like a muffin up in the air for the seagulls. As they swooped down, eagerly picking the morsels out of the air, I couldn’t help but think of that scene from The Birds when Tippi Hedren was attacked by crazed gulls. These particular gulls, however, seemed to have found a kindred spirit. He saw me as I approached, and we exchanged pleasantries and all the usual yak about how he likes San Diego, if the traffic were bad, and how I was glad to find out he wasn’t the Unabomber. He laughed out loud, and as he did so, I couldn’t help thinking that in another life, this guy could have been a DJ or talk-show host—anything where he could use that melodious, almost soothing voice to his advantage.

I talked to Dan for about two hours, probing him, forcing him to confront memories he probably hasn’t thought about
for years. The thing that strikes me most about Duchaine is that he appears to be the consummate gentleman. Although his print persona is that of an angry, sarcastic, occasionally SOB-ish mad scientist, he is, in person, mild mannered, courteous, and just plain pleasant to be around. There is, however, a certain sadness about the man, and it came through at times during our interview:

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Part 2 -

MM: One thing that strikes me as unusual about you and, at the same time, probably reveals volumes about your personality, is that you were left alone at the age of 12 to practically raise yourself. What were your feelings about being in this house alone? Were you frightened?

DD: No, not at all. Now I’m a little ashamed to say this, but I really enjoyed myself [chuckling sheepishly]. I really didn’t like my parents that much—I didn’t hate them—it’s just all the things that interested me, they had no interest in. If I wanted to play drums, they’d say, “No, play guitar,” because my father did. And so we had a real tug-of-war over ideas. After theinitial shock of having no parents, I was actually pretty content.

MM: Did you decorate the house like a 12 year old would?

DD: No, no, I left everything exactly the same.

MM: Did the kids at school think it was pretty cool that you were living
by yourself?

DD: [lifting his face towards the sky to sun himself] Yes, but I was a loner. I had a couple of close friends, but most of the kids didn’t know much about me. I didn’t really have any parties; I was a real adult. Every week, the neighbors would see me riding the lawnmower like a good little neighbor.

MM: What about the advantage of being able to bring girls over, or
were you still obese?

DD: When my father died and his eating influences were out of the house, I lost all my weight. In six months, it was gone. Still, I didn’t take advantage of it at all. I think that’s been a big problem with me my whole life, until a few years ago. I was always a little insecure about what I had to offer women, especially concerning my looks. It was one of the reasons I went into bodybuilding—I didn’t think I was manly enough, physically. Plus I saw all the really attractive girls in high school going out with the jocks. I was a little resentful because most of the jocks were kind of stupid.

MM: What was your first actual job?

DD: Every summer, as soon as I could drive, I moved furniture for an appliance store. Then, I went to college at Boston University. I chose my major because of girls again. All the cool girls, the interesting ones who had interesting things to say in high school, were in the theater club. I joined the theater club—I didn’t do that much acting—I did backstage work. Besides, it was the end of the sixties, and I thought we all had this obligation, if we had an artistic bent, to follow the arts. And I saw all these normal people, like businessmen, doctors, and lawyers, who seemed like such dull people. I wanted to do something pretty frivolous, so I went into theater. Since I was financially supported and had no hardships, I had no idea earning a living was going to be such a chore. I’m actually happy that it happened that way because I have wonderful memories of those classes and those experiences.

MM: What memories stand out?

DD: It was probably the happiest time of my life, especially the summers. I was hired by American Youth Hostels to lead bicycle trips around the country with groups of 12 to 15 teenagers. I went to Nova Scotia, New England, Cape Cod, British Columbia, the Pacific Northwest—it didn’t pay much, but I didn’t really need the money. I was still naive with no career aspirations and happy go lucky, and there was still a bright, shiny world ahead of me. I mean—and I mentioned this to a lot of people—the type of world I inhabit today, what I see on TV and the news, everything is not what I imagined. I’m not too happy about what’s happened to the world. But back then, everything was great. I really cherish those memories.

MM: What stands out as the most significant event of your childhood?

DD: Probably Batman comic books because at a very early age, I knew my father was not a very powerful or imposing figure; I mean, he was the subject of ridicule. I was aware that people were making fun of him behind his back. And so, I was not very proud of having him as a father. He wasn’t a bad person, but I guess I wanted a stronger father figure, and I think I substituted with comic-book heroes. I guess the first one was Batman, and I remember having a subscription to the comic-book series. I think that probably imprinted on me the idea of an athletic, bodybuilding-type body. Once I started reading comic books, especially when the Batman comic books came out, I immediately swapped some electronic equipment for a weightlifting set. This was when I was in high school. My grandmother used to come over every three or four days, and she told me she didn’t want to see me lifting weights, so I had to hide the weights inmy house all the time. I had a loose floorboard, and I would actually put the weights under the floorboard when she would come to clean. I lifted secretly.

MM: When was the first time you actually realized there were guys out there competing in this?

DD: I think it was my first year in college at Boston University. I walked into the weight room, and there was a guy who was really big—rounded in places people are not round in, and I was flabbergasted. That was really the first human being I’d seen who was that big.

MM: What did you do after college?

DD: After college, I didn’t know what to do. I was ill prepared to make a living. All I knew was that all my friends in college had moved to New York City, so I moved everything there and had two miserable jobs—I was a bartender for
awhile. Then I was a job hunter placing unemployed people into jobs. And I was miserable doing it, so I gave up after a
few months and moved back to Maine. I ended up living in my aunt’s house. Then I did a combination of things. I was
a part-time waiter, and I also toured with a children’s theater group in Maine. We’d go around to elementary schools; I was one of the performers. It didn’t pay much, but at least I could say I was a paid actor.

MM: Do you remember your first love?

DD: Uhhh, boy that was a hard time in my life. I was a sophomore in college, and I had fallen in love with a married graduate student. Boy. Oh God. I would have done anything for her, and she really broke my heart. I deserved it, actually. She was at a time in her life when she just wanted to play with younger men. And she was having great carefree fun with it, but I was just totally in love with her. That was one of the great romances of my life. It hit me so hard because I had never had those kinds of emotions before. And, it was a real soap opera as it progressed. I was out of control. I was probably an idiot back then. It was many, many, many years before I experienced emotions like that again.

MM: Was this your first sexual experience, too?

DD: No, that was with someone else in college. God, I even remember her name. Barbara… What a sweetheart. It was a dismal experience. Because I was so excited about doing all these positions I’d seen in porno films, somehow I must have—although I don’t remember being very rough—but somehow I ripped her vaginal wall, and she started bleeding,
and she couldn’t stop bleeding, so I had to take her to the emergency room, and they put a stitch or two in. I was just devastated. Oh God.

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Part 3 -

MM: Oh man! You’d think you’d be impotent for the rest of your life, at least I would!

DD: Yeah, I didn’t have sex again until I was about 20 years old I think.

MM: When did you first stumble across steroids?

DD: Skip Robinson. He was a pretty good top amateur bodybuilder in Maine who used to go to California in the summers. He was a high-school mathematics, er, science teacher. He had his summers off, so he’d go out and see what the big guys were doing in Santa Monica. He would tell me about steroids. So I hadn’t even heard about steroids until after college. When I decided to try steroids, I did the most practical thing: I went to my family doctor who had known me since I was born. And I said, “Well, I want to do this bodybuilding contest, and everybody says I should use two tablets of Dianabol. So will you write me a prescription?” He said, “All right, I do that for some high-school football players, too.” So that’s how it started.

MM: So how did you do in that particular competition?

DD: Oh God. I was like a shrimp, you know. I think it was Mr. Maine that year; maybe I was fifth or something. I only weighed like 160-something. It might have been 1977, I think.

MM: How many competitions did you end up competing in?

DD: Four in Maine, two Mr. Maines, one Mr. Vacation Land, and one Mr. New England. And then when I moved to California, I did two pairs competitions. I realized I wasn’t really big enough to be a great bodybuilder, but back then, it was the beginning of the pairs, and I thought it would be an exciting time because I thought they would put more emphasis on the creativity of the posing routine. And I always had great posing routines from my theater experience. As a matter of fact, I did the American Couples Championships in 1981 in Las Vegas. I remember Jeff Everson and Cory Kneur were competing in the same contest. Actually they won it.

MM: Why did you move to California originally? Just to be a bodybuilder?

DD: Yeah. I was becoming king shit in Portland, Maine. I had just finished up a play with the university there with rave
reviews, and the equity company was asking me to do some work for them. I was really considering opening my own theater in an abandoned church in Portland because I was the king of the town as far as theater went. Then one day I was talking to various friends from college, and all of them were moving somewhere. One was moving from San Francisco to New York, another to San Diego—all over—and I’m thinking, “Here I am 28 years old; I’m stuck in this town for the rest of my life. This is not good. I must go someplace.” And I had two choices: because I ran a bicycle shop up in Maine, there were always ads in the magazines for managers in training in “bikeology” in either Santa Monica or Santa Barbara. I was going to one of those two places because I was guaranteed a job. I called them both up. Both places said, “You’re experienced, so just come here, and you’ll be working within a week.” So I said, “Well hell, Santa Monica’s got Gold’s Gym. I’ll go there.” It’s kind of odd because I had this sports car fetish from college on, and I used to build kit cars. The first was a dune buggy. I sold that and built a little Lotus 7 replica. Actually, it took me a month to build it. As soon as I finished building it, I hopped in it and drove it from Maine to California. No heater. No top. No doors. No sound insulation. I was a battered guy after several days on the road.

MM: So you moved to California and took the job as a bike shop
manager?

DD: I had a lot of jobs when I was in California. I started out being a bicycle mechanic, but I hated it. I went from running my own bicycle shop to having to follow someone’s orders. I’ve been fired for insubordination from every job I’ve ever had—I mouth off and tell them how it should really be done. So I left the bike shop and was the manager of a gas station for a while. Then I was a cab driver, and then I was a process server for legal papers, and then I was a retail salesman for an automotive boutique in Century City. Sometimes I worked for friends—my female training partner owned a furniture store, and I worked for her, and as a matter of fact, some of my initial batches of Ultimate Orange were mixed by hand in big metal buckets in the back of that furniture store. And, finally, all the time I was doing this, I had that OEM [Olympian Equipment Manufacturing] publishing job that sold the Underground Steroid Handbook.

MM: Who’s idea was it to write the Underground Steroid Handbook?

DD: That came about with Michael Zumpano. Michael was a genius—a brilliant man. Now he owns Champion Nutrition. Anyway, he read a lot and worked with a lot of different athletes. We talked a lot then, and from those talks, the book was born… It’s interesting: at the time, computers were really rare. Very few people had them. So I would go to this computer place and actually rent time on the computer—it had a very crude word processor. They had this old daisy wheel printer. The whole book was typed up there and printed on legal-size paper, which was reduced by half to be printed as the book.

MM: What was the evolution of the steroid thing? How did the first prescription from your family doctor evolve to the point where you actually started selling them?

DD: When I moved to California, I thought I was going to become a great bodybuilder because it had to be! I mean everyone who went to California came back bigger. I did the rounds with the doctors. And the real turning point as far as writing about steroids and actually selling them came about in 1984. I was in a miserable marriage, not so much that my first wife was a terrible person; she was actually a real sweetheart, but we just wanted different things in life. I wanted to continue in this little enterprise of my publishing career—OEM publishing and the steroid handbook, which I filled all the orders for myself—and she wanted more of a nine-to-five fellow who was more family oriented, and she wanted to move back to the East Coast, closer to her relatives.

So, I did the worst thing possible. The worst, worst thing. I left her for her best friend. But, because I felt so guilty for doing that to her, I mean it’s a low thing for a man to do to his wife, I gave her everything. I mean every possession in the house, the car, everything. I just kept my motorcycle and the clothes on my back, and I moved in with this girl.

Anyhow, at the time, I would say there were many underground steroid dealers who approached me through the sales of my book, and a whole bunch of people were selling steroids on the black market through the mail. I helped out the mail-order people because I had a list of readers, and if any of my readers of the Underground Steroid Handbook would send me three bucks, I’d give them three different steroid lists, and they could send off and buy the steroids through the mail. Finally, someone asked me, “Well, why don’t you sell steroids, too?” And I said, “Why would I do that? I don’t know how to find steroids. Besides, it’s illegal” [laugh]. And then, this little guy whose name was Alex Mann—he was a real con artist—came along. He said, “Oh, I have this gay psychiatrist who has a crush on me. And if I string him along, I can order steroids through his office.

Why don’t you buy some?” And that was the turning point of my steroid career. I bought $3,000 worth of steroids, and I was sneaky. I would still send out the three different lists in that envelope of the steroid dealers, but in another envelope was my own list with much lower prices. It was an odd kind of little thing. If you called up Terry Todd at the University of Austin, he’d probably have copies of that steroid list because it was called the “John Ziegler fan club.” John Ziegler was the doctor who was peddling Dianabol around New York and Pennsylvania in the ’60’s.

And I called myself—my code name was “junior”—I called myself the illegitimate son of John Ziegler. And so at first it became a strictly retail operation, where most guys would send like $100 or $200, and that would get them onesies or twosies of this or that. But I was smart in that I didn’t live off all the money I made on the steroids; I reinvested to buy more steroids. And it got to a point when I couldn’t buy enough steroids from this other guy, so I found other suppliers. And then I was buying… Is this interesting? Should I keep going?

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Part 4 -

MM: Oh, absolutely.

DD: Well, then I branched out. This odd little Dutch fellow called me up and said, “I have a lot of European steroids. Do you have anybody that can buy them in your country?” I said, “How would I get them in?” “Oh, we can mail it in mail parcels. They’re never opened.” I said, “Well yeah, I could sell it because I sell steroids, but I don’t have any money.” He says, “Well, you sound like you’re an honest guy, so I’ll extend you credit. So, I’ll start sending you the stuff, and when you sell it, pay me back.”

He was so happy that I was selling this stuff, he started sending stuff worth around $50,000 at a time, which I guess in the steroid business is not a lot of money, but to me, back then, it was enormous. It was actually too much stuff for me to sell on a retail level. So, since I had access to American steroids and the European stuff I started getting from Holland, I was like the supplier to all of the retail steroid dealers in Gold’s Gym. I lived three blocks away from Gold’s in Venice on the same street, on Sunset Street. I must have had six or maybe nine steroid dealers buying from me. They almost had to wait next to my door to get their stuff in turn. And some of the names I could tell you—you’d be shocked at who they were.

MM: At this time, weren’t you also sort of a consultant to a lot of professional bodybuilders?

DD: Yes, but I wonder if I really gave them good advice. I knew a lot about steroids compared to them, but now I realize it doesn’t really matter. When you’re working with pro bodybuilders, if you give them two grams of anything a week, they’re going to do well. It doesn’t really matter what they use. They could use two grams of testosterone; they could add up Winstrol, Anavar, Equipoise, Deca, etc. so that over a week it all adds up to about two grams, and it’ll pretty much cause the same effect. Maybe one day we’ll find out what the lower limit is—what’s the minimum you need for that kind of high muscle mass.

But it seems like two grams is pretty much the average. But back then, because of the GDR [German Democratic Republic] people were trying to sell everyone their precision steroid arrays at $300 a bottle; we all thought there was some very precise, synergistic combination, you know, a kind of yen and yang steroid thing. We were trying to make it more scientific than it really had to be.

MM: What was going on in your love life at this time?

DD: My first wife was not a bodybuilder. The girl I left her for was working out hard and loved using steroids. Gosh, she loved those drugs. Yeah, she was a creepy little girl. She loved needles—the kind of girl who liked to eat her own scabs after she picked them off.

MM: Oh, I must have her telephone number!

DD: I don’t know where she is now. Then we started going out with bodybuilding girls…it’s a little odd, but I have no shame…yeah, we went out with bodybuilding girls as threesomes actually. I actually had a T-shirt made up that said “Sex is nobody’s business except the three people involved.” I had a run of bodybuilding-type women for many years—I had a real sexual compulsion for them for awhile. I was totally irrational. I guess it was something I didn’t have, so I just had to have it. And then I guess it finally got out of my system.

MM: Yes, because now it seems like you’re more into what we’d call normal-looking girls [as we both watched an incredible girl go by on roller blades, smiled at each other, and sent that telepathic guy-message that says, “Yes, I too feel the tingling in my naughty parts” or something to that effect].

DD: I don’t have any objection to the bodies, but I don’t like the feel ofreally lean women in bed—they’re just too hard and bony, and I’m just tired of the lifestyle. Shelly, my last wife, was always preparing for some contest and she was always dieting and had to work five or six days a week and always had to work out twice a day and had to do aerobics, and we had no real social life. Back then, I was into it. Now I’m over it.

MM: Back to the ’roids biz. So it continued to grow?

DD: Yes, and then I think from this point on was my downfall. Dianabol went off the market. And, uh, that was going to hurt my sales. I was somewhat greedy, not terribly so, but a lot of the replacement Dianabol I was seeing on the black market was either okay stuff that I couldn’t ever get enough of, or it was crap. Then I met this odd English fellow who called me up one day, and we had lunch at the Disneyland Hotel. And he said, “I work with a pharmacy house in Tijuana, and we have the capability to make perfect Dianabol if you can find a way to sell it.” I said, “Yeah, that would be nice".

It would be nice to be able to control the quality of it, you know. I could design it exactly the way I want it. How much do I need to order?” He says, “Well, we’d need a 5,000-bottle order.” And I said, “Well, it’s out of my range because I’m mostly a retail kind of guy, and I don’t know that many people—2,500 bottles would last me over a year.”

But I had a coach friend who was buying a lot of stuff from me. He was an engineer from Hughes Aircraft named Pat Dillon. And I said “Pat, I have an opportunity to buy 5,000 bottles. Can you go halvsies?” He says, “Sure. I’ve got accounts in Chicago from my university days that will buy all I can get.” So, that’s how we started. That was in 1985.

At first we had to arrange to smuggle it ourselves. And the reason I used Pat was because he was already getting stuff from the Mexican pharmacies with a little El Salvador guy who was walking illegal immigrants through the paths and hills, away from the roads, into America. And every time he did the walk, he had a knapsack and would fill it up with everything you wanted him to carry as long as you paid him like $500. So, Pat was putting things like Sostenon preloads and Deca-Durabolin in it, you know, the Mexican steroids. So all we did was give him Dianabol bottles, no big deal. Testosterone cypionate was our next big project, but we ran into a problem. All of a sudden, in parts of the country, testosterone cypionate in the 10-cc bottles was hard to get, but in other parts of the country, you could get it really cheap.

The only way we could make it cheap enough for us to sell it to these customers was to make sure we didn’t pay more than around 50 cents a bottle for the “mule” to take it across the border, and that meant we had to load him up with the 1,000 vials of testosterone cypionate. Bad idea. It weighed well over 100 lbs, and that poor little guy, as he was walking away from the Denny’s down in Tijuana, was just about staggering sideways. So after that, Laboratory Milano arranged to smuggle the stuff themselves: we’d meet my partner in Neiman’s restaurant in Carlsbad, we’d exchange cash, and they’d give me a hotel key for a little hotel off of Palomar Airport Road [near San Diego] called Palomar All-Star Inn.We’d just open the room, and there the steroids were, all boxed up. Naturally, all the tablets were smuggled by illegals walking over: they were in bags taped to their bodies, etc.—I don’t know all the ways, but all the bottles and labels were legally shipped from Mexico into the country with no restraints, and there was a little lady who would come during the day and just load pills into the bottles and box them and leave them for us. And Pat Dillon and I would drive down from Los Angles, pick the stuff up, and drive back to LA.

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Part 5 -

MM: When did the bubble burst?

DD: We had an idea that the FBI and customs were interested in all this steroid stuff. On the west side of LA, there were a lot of steroid dealers, and stupidly, they were all packing and shipping from the same storage facility. There were four or five guys using the same storage facility in Culver City at the same time. Sticking ’em in boxes, slapping labels on, and dropping them off at the same UPS shipping center. It was kind of hilarious because we’d walk down the walkways, and one of us would yell, “Can I borrow a hundred bottles of this? I’ll pay you back tomorrow.” It was crazy.

After a while, I realized the FBI was beginning to follow me. At that point, I said this is enough. Up to that point, it was some kind of childish game— making believe I was a criminal. None of us really thought we were criminals because they weren’t really drugs, and we weren’t selling to other criminals. But when the government started observing me, intercepting my packages and everything, I said enough is enough. And at the same time, Laboratory Milano was getting a little pushy: they were trying to push more product for me to buy than I was really able to handle, so I was getting kind of paranoid. I was afraid that other criminals in the gym were going to rip my money off, and with the government following me around, I just told them at the end of 1988, “Look, we all know the government is on to us, so before something bad happens, I’m out of it, and I suggest you close down the operation.”

They said,“OK, we’ll cut it right now.” Then, I moved out of the city. I moved up to Benicia, California, to Champion Nutrition because Michael Zumpano was a friend of mine—he was one of the coauthors of the Underground Steroid Handbook. I began working for him. And I was lost. I knew I didn’t want to be a steroid dealer anymore, but I was so out of doing the nine-to-five thing that I really couldn’t commit to doing the job he wanted me to do, so I just kind of laid around the house, read a lot, etc. I just didn’t know what to do. Luckily I had saved a lot of money, a hundred thousand dollars, so I didn’t have to work for awhile.

But, I missed Southern California and decided to move back and work with one of my partners in what was then Olympia Nutrition. I had no idea that my partners [from Laboratory Milano] were still going gangbusters and selling to everybody in the world, including Larry Pacifico, who was cooperating with Federal authorities. And then, one day, May 17, 1987, I was driving to the gym for a workout, from Benicia to Concord, and I was pulled over by a police car, and there were at least 15 shotguns aimed at me, and I was told to lie face down in the middle of the road.

Justifiably so—I had a lot of guns in my house—weird ones, too. I had a gun fetish as many of the nouveau riche people do, where you buy the things and never shoot ’em because it’s just something to buy. Back then, it was the Miami Vice days, and I had the Rolex, the flashy cars, and guns. I was such an asshole.

MM: I was going to ask if you were one of these stereotypical steroid gangsters.

DD: Oh yes. No socks, silk coat, that kind of thing. Just an asshole. I’m ashamed to think of it. At least I got it out of my system.

MM: How much money were you making at the height of the business?

DD: About $4,000 a week, which is chump change compared to other steroid dealers, but for me, coming from a poor family, it was a staggering amount of money. And of course, I didn’t know how to handle it. I should have been more frugal, but I had a real car fetish. I had a 427 Cobra replica, a Porsche 550 Spyder replica, an Interceptor, a big black van, an Impala, and a Jetta all at the same time. The van was kind of interesting because I still dabbled in steroids after I left Southern California. I still had my friend in Holland who was crying to me that he needed to make money. Even though I was out of the steroid business, I would receive packages from him. The van had a complete hand canner like those big cans that you put protein powder in. Well, there’s a hand closer that will close it tight, and I put all of
my steroids in cans like that and packed them with Styrofoam pellets, so they wouldn’t rattle, and I had fake labels for protein powder, and I’d ship ’em out like that.

MM: Tell me about the first time you went to prison.

DD: That was March 14, 1989 [slowly, pausing for a moment, as if accessing the data]. And I had been sentenced to three years for “conspiracy to defraud the government” since I had mislabeled the steroids from Laboratory Milano. And it was kind of an odd sentence because it was understood between the defense lawyers and the prosecutors that some pretty harsh sentences were going to be handed out to send a message to the athletes, but it was our understanding that as soon as the sentences were handed down, we were supposed to file a reduction of sentence motion, and it would be granted.

That was generally true, except for me [sad chuckle]. For example, one of my partners had a sentence of seven years. He got out in ten months. Another guy had a one year sentence. He was out in three months. I had a three-year sentence, so I figured I’d be out in five or six months. Buuutt, I rewrote that steroid book. And published it. And the judge didn’t think I was repentant.

He gave me a reduction but not as much as I thought. I finally got an 18-month sentence, and back then, the Federal guidelines were easier, and I only had to do about two-thirds of the time. I was in prison for about ten months, and then I was in a halfway house for about two more.

MM: Which prison camp was it?

DD: Boron Prison Camp—about a hundred miles from Los Angeles, right next to Edwards Air Force Base. We always saw the shuttle coming down.

MM: What are your memories of that time?

DD: A big adventure—all my friends were there. John Romano was there. John Romano and I were roommates and workout buddies. We really had a bond in that prison. And it was before the crack sentences started filling the prisons, so it was mostly a white guys’ prison for fraud—a lot of pot and methamphetamine—not too much cocaine back then. But it began to fill up. So we all knew we had short sentences and that it wasn’t the end of the world. Yeah, there was a little panic.

I was wondering if I’d ever get that sentence reduction, but for ten months, it was an adventure, and I recommend being in prison for a short time to many people because you’ll see how the government works and what kind of people are in Federal prison. They’re not the kind of criminals you’d expect. We had young 19-year-old kids there who did things like take rattlesnakes off Indian reservations and milk the venom, and technically that’s stealing from an Indian reservation, so they gave them a year. One guy photocopied a dollar bill and put it in some Laundromat change machine to get quarters out, and they gave him a year for that. Another guy was rustling cacti off Federal land, and he got a year for that. Chickenshit stuff.

MM: So after you got out, what events led to the subsequent clenbuterol bust?

DD: Oh God [taking off his sunglasses and rubbing his forehead]. I was idiot. You know, one of my big problems up until lately was that I found it hard to say no to people if they asked me for a favor. When I got out of prison the first time, I was aware of GHB, but I knew the government was not going to be happy about it being sold, so I didn’t touch it. But after about a year, everybody was selling it, and the government wasn’t doing anything about it. The guy who ended up being the codefendant on my case, Larry Wood—I guess the government was going to go after him for something else—said, “I have this mail-order customer list of longevity people, not athletes, and they want their GHB, and I have a limited amount, and I’d like you to sell it for me because I don’t want to be around it.” I said, “I don’t have a problem with that because no one’s been arrested for it, and it’s only a couple of months of work, it’s a little bit of money for me, and there’s no advertising—everybody knows everything about it,” so I did it.

Unfortunately, one of those customers was an undercover DEA agent. We never approached him directly because he was listed as a fax line, and at the time, I didn’t have a fax machine at my house. So one day, I was just looking over the customer list, and I said, “Oh well, I’ll get Larry to fax this guy” because Larry had a fax machine, and that was the impetus of the undercover buys and the GHB and the subsequent arrest.

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Part 6 -

MM: I thought it had something to do with clenbuterol?

DD: Partially, because I also had some clenbuterol that I had made up in my kitchen for the bodybuilders at Gold’s Gym. I had dissolved quarter grams of clenbuterol in methanol, and I just mixed it with Diet Kool-Aid, strawberry flavored— and I put it in little droppers—I was pretty precise with the droppers and everything, and it was pretty much a local kind of thing with guys at Gold’s Gym and friends of mine, but the guy [the undercover DEA agent] said, “Do you have anything else you can sell with GHB?” And I said, “I have this clenbuterol stuff—it’s a fat burner. It doesn’t have a label on it, it’s not a tablet, and it’s kind of funky looking. But I’ll send you a few bottles if you want it.”

MM: So this was a parole violation?

DD: Oh yes. Well, that was part of it. Actually, they arrested me for “conspiracy to defraud,” and the reason they
called it fraud was because of that odd little girlfriend who loved steroids. She was still friendly to me, and I let her fill the little bottles with GHB, and it really delighted her that she was around drugs again [chuckling]. But I gave her a storage locker, so she could come and go, and I could call her up and say, “Caroline, I need a hundred bottles of GHB by Thursday, the 50-gram or 100-gram size. And she’d come over to my house with the bottles. Unfortunately, because the product was in her locker with her name on it and not mine, that, in the eyes of the government, was deceiving the government because my stuff was in somebody else’s name, and that’s fraud. That was a felony. All the other charges were misdemeanors.

Now get this, it gets even odder. Since that day, all those GHB convictions have been overturned because of prosecutor misconduct because the FDA hid valuable evidence from the defense. So if I wanted to hire a lawyer, today, I could overturn that conviction, but the damage is done—I’ve done the time.

MM: How long was the second sentence?

DD: Oh boy, that was a bite in the balls. The government adds up points with questions like: how old are you? What’s your criminal record? What’s the dollar amount of the fraud? That sort of thing. And, all the points added up to 24 months. However, on top of that, because I was arrested while on probation, the probation officers from my first indictment said, “Well, technically you’re in violation of probation, so we’re gonna add more time because you violated your probation.” I said, “Yeah, but they’ve already enhanced my sentence because I was on probation.” “Makes no difference,” they said. “We can do it, so we’re gonna do it.” So they added another 12 months to the sentence. All added up, between the second indictment and the parole violation, I was given 36 months, which, with good time, I did 30.

MM: Which prison this time?

DD: I was bounced between a lot of prisons actually. I self-surrendered to Nellis in Las Vegas. But right before self-surrendering, I had a cerebral stroke and was on anticoagulants, so I wouldn’t have a second stroke, and the medical facilities at that prison couldn’t dispense that medicine and couldn’t do the blood test to monitor it. So they packed me up in the middle of the night and shipped me to a small medical center in Carville, Louisiana.

They just stuck me on a commercial flight, but they were nice enough to remove the handcuffs while we were in the air. When I got to the medical center, I was actually cohabiting with the last surviving leper colony in the United States run by the government.

MM: Louisiana and lepers? How much worse can it get?

DD: Yeah. Actually, I was quite productive during my time. Because I couldn’t talk for almost a year from the aphasia from the stroke, and I was considered some kind of medical case, they didn’t give me a job. I did a lot of work for myself, though. I wrote all of BODYOPUS by longhand while sitting in a little folding chair at a little two-by-two table in prison; I also did the Muscle Media 2000 articles there. I did the Finaplix topical solution there. I instructed one of the prison guards how to get the stuff and step by step do it for me…

MM: Despite it being productive, was this a very low point in your life?

DD: No [flat out]. No. If I were out in the world, I wouldn’t have been well. I was so brain damaged from the stroke, I couldn’t talk, and as you well know, my first writing was very shaky and incoherent, so I needed a lot of self-therapy to get back on my feet. I must tell you, I wish I could have found an easier way of straightening my life out, but it was really the turning point of my life. I would do it over again, the 20 months at Carville, because I really became a disciplined person.

I realized how people were manipulating me and didn’t care about me: my so-called friends at Gold’s Gym that were always in my apartment never even bothered to visit or even send a postcard. And, the odd thing is, I didn’t miss them. I realized I really didn’t give a shit about these people, so I learned to be able to say no and look out for myself, and I would say, after 20 months, I was ready to get out. There were a couple of notable exceptions: Bill Phillips let me write my column from prison and basically kept my name alive. Thanks to him, I had some money when I got out. He was one of the few people who really supported me while I was in prison. I knew it was a terrible time, but I knew it was necessary because I’m a better person now.

MM: You work with Next Nutrition, the company known mostly for Designer Whey Protein. What exactly is your business relationship with them?

DD: Well, I have an office there, but I don’t really have to be there. I go in because I don’t think it’s emotionally healthy to stay in the house all the time. And it gives me an excuse to bicycle to work and get my aerobics in, and I can easily just show up there when I’m needed. At this point, I get a royalty for Ultimate Orange, and I got a flat fee for some of the design work on Designer Protein because I was in prison, and it wasn’t that hard to make. I mean most of the work on Designer Protein was David Jenkins’s flavoring and marketing, of course. Oh, I will get a royalty for the ISO3 supplement, and that’s about it.

Past a certain point, after the initial point of the grand scheme of what we’re trying to market, whether it’s the ISO3 and the Isometric, which is now called the Isocaloric Diet, the marketing thing is out of my hands. It’s very rare that I’m asked to do any ad copy. Sometimes it’s a little frustrating because I have so many great ideas for products, and the way Next is, it’s not a company that has a lot of products like a TwinLab—they’d rather have a very specific few products and promote them heavily. I’ve had other offers, of course, from nutrition companies for probably as much or more money, but because I’ve known David Jenkins and his girlfriend Janet for so long, since the mid-’80’s, I’m loyal, like I’m loyal to MM2K. It’s more loyalty than anything else.

MM: As writers for Muscle Media 2000, we occasionally, as a matter of being candid and honest, confront people in our columns, and you’re very obviously no exception. Do you ever have to face any of these people in public?

DD: I’m reclusive. I’m not out in public very much. I haven’t had a heckler, yet. And I’m surprised I don’t get any hate e-mail. I used to have more hate mail when I was only the Steroid Guru, but that’s ironic because now I get letters saying, “You’re losing your steroid roots. You were the Steroid Guru, and what are you now? The Fitness Guru, the Body-Contract Guru, what kind of guru are you?”

MM: A lot of people accuse you of having a tremendous ego. What do you say to that?

DD: That’s kind of interesting. I think you’ll agree that my ego on paper is different from my ego in person. I know what my strengths are in print, and I know I’m damn brilliant at what I do, not because I’m book smart but because I’m creative. But I know it’s only a matter of time before someone will be better at what I do. But in public, I’m pretty good at picking up nuances in people, and really, I’m pretty different. I think I heard a comment from some guy during the “No Holds Barred” weekend [sponsored by Muscle Media 2000 and held in Las Vegas last November] that if Dan has an ego, I haven’t seen it. It’s funny, I had more of an ego when I knew less.

MM: Here’s another dichotomy. In person, you appear to be this soft-spoken, pleasant guy, but in your columns, you appear to be a dynamo, almost a sexual deviant.

[BB]

Part 7 -

DD: That’s all true, actually. I don’t act deviant in public, but pretty much everything Butt - Munch does and talks about is probably me. I’m the butt man: I have a real butt fetish, so every-thing that Butt-Munch says about women’s butts can pretty much be attributed to me. I have fun with sex, in print anyhow. However, sex is more private: private sex is much different. I’ve never played the field, and I’ve never wanted to, but put it this way, I’m creative everywhere.

MM: What kind of stuff do you like to do that has nothing to do with bodybuilding?

DD: Well, for many years I’ve wanted to have a family. Why do I want to make this money? I’ve got my toys. And, I do indulge myself in a few ways. I’m quite into esoteric stereo equipment, not just buying the damn stuff but designing it. I modified a loudspeaker design over the fax machine. Now I have the loudspeakers sitting in front of me. They’re very unusual, with one driver— no woofer, no tweeter, just a driver.

It’s highly efficient, and it’s being driven by these highly unusual vacuum-tube amplifiers. I got some vacuum tubes that are handmade in Poland. The design for them has been around since the 1930’s. I’m also supposed to get into the bicycle business this year, manufacturing the recumbent bike—like the one I ride to work.

MM: What kind of music comes out of these speakers?

DD: Oh, I haven’t been listening to music for a long time, so I’m beginning to buy whatever is favorably critiqued. For example, when I looked through the top 10 of the top critics in the country, I found P.J. Harvey and her CD To Bring You My Love. This is just terrific. I also really enjoy Chris Isaak, Bjork, Enya, and one of my favorite’s is “Koyaanisqatsi” by Philip Glass.

MM: What kind of stuff are you reading?

DD: I used to read so much fiction in prison, but now, I don’t have the time. The last book I read was…Our Stolen Future. It’s about environmental estrogens reducing the sperm counts of humans and animals.

MM: What book would you recommend to our readers, something that might help them in their lives?

DD: Well, the book that would probably change their lives more than anything else is a fiction book called Gospel, written by Wilton Barnhardt. It’s a journey between the time of Christ and today. It happens to be the lost Gospel of Matthias who was supposed to be the apostle who took Judas’ place. It’s a wonderful discussion on the nature of God and the world today. It really changed my life.

MM: You live near the beach. Do you take advantage of it?

DD: I don’t swim in it, but I try to do all the bike paths right next to it. La Jolla is the nicest bike ride of all.

MM: What’s your definition of success? What will fulfill your life?

DD: It’s an odd one. I’d like to make enough money so I can help my closest friends make money like I do. A lot of them are quite talented, but they just don’t know what to do with their lives: they’re miserable in the jobs they have, and
I’d like to be able to, instead of buying toys, buy businesses where they can work close to me. I mean, I don’t really have a family, but I’d like to create one with close friends.


We started walking towards the city and my parked car. I had a plane to catch, so Dan and I shook hands and said good-bye, but instead of going to his car, he walked back to the cove, sat down, and pulled out the napkin from his pocket that still had a few bits of muffin left in it. As I looked back, he was happily feeding the pigeons and sea gulls.


The End.

[Humble Narcissist]

Smart but crazy guy.