I joined the communist party today

[Soul Crusher]

I'm not a communist either, and the though of a government administering everything I do I find terribly appalling, but I must clarify something: The history of communism IS NOT grim. What everyone perceives as a communist "regime", eg North Korea, China or the old USSR, were and are nothing more than totalitarian states. I do not know of any states in which workers have had control of production (the # 1 premise of communism) so I can't say that it has or hasn't worked.

I do know it does work at the local level though. The pilgrims lived a communal lifestyle. Same with Smalltown America until a couple of decades ago. They may say they didn't live a communal lifestyle because of the stigma the term "communism" carries, but they are communal entities indeed. As you go up the power ladder the power concentrations tend to conspire against The People so that's probably the reason we have yet to see a purely communal state as of yet. I mean, everyone keeps talking about "the community" and all but as soon as you put together the words "community" and "organise" the capitalist police quickly move in to put out "the fire".

I've read somewhere that a form of anarchical communism was once tried somewhere in Spain and it did work wonders, but I can't really cite anything because I can't really remember where I read it. Needless to say that part of Spain (Catalonia I think it is) that I'm talking about is one of the most advanced, socially, culturally and economically, in Europe and the world by default.

I do know capitalism IS NOT the answer though.

Churchill said it best - capitlism is the worst form of govt, but it is better than anything else.

Capitilism as we have it today does not work, i agree.  But going to communism is not the answer.  

The problem is that there are no checks and balances and no accountability.  People who screw up should be held accountable, not bailed out.  Its the only way to ensure people will make catious decisions and not have a gambling emntality like we have had.

[Slapper]

Churchill said it best - capitlism is the worst form of govt, but it is better than anything else.

That is an opinion, not a fact.

Capitilism as we have it today does not work, i agree.  But going to communism is not the answer.

I agree, I do not like communism either. Nonetheless we are indeed communal beings so we have to leave stigmas, old cliches, behind and realise that we will use the system that the people demand at the time. It's The People who determine the system and not viceversa. Maybe your grandpa... everytime he mowed the neighbor's front yard for free or shovel the snow off his friend's backyard for free or helped his best friend put together that vintage car or helped the local volunteer firefighter group was thinking in a very "commie" way without even knowing it. And you know what? Nothing happened. The USA survived and even thrived!!

The problem is that there are no checks and balances and no accountability.  People who screw up should be held accountable, not bailed out.  Its the only way to ensure people will make catious decisions and not have a gambling emntality like we have had.

Well, the problem with today's federal government is too deep to be able to articulate in less than 2 sentences. I think the biggest problem is that the country is just too big, with people on both sides professing very liberal tendencies and somewhere sandwiched in the middle a majority of people who still think that the Virgin Mary really got pregnant without getting jizzed and that "colored" people should have their own water fountains. In essence you have a handfull of states that have evolved, in every sense, while the rest of the country is still incapable, or unable (who knows!,) of leaving stupid irrational behaviours behind. When you have such disparity in ideas they are bound to collide politically. And when you have two groups of people fighting each other Big Business just stands on the side smiling, knowing full well that we will be easy prey, easily controlled and manipulated.

[MB_722]

communism sucks

[Soul Crusher]

That is an opinion, not a fact.

I agree, I do not like communism either. Nonetheless we are indeed communal beings so we have to leave stigmas, old cliches, behind and realise that we will use the system that the people demand at the time. It's The People who determine the system and not viceversa. Maybe your grandpa... everytime he mowed the neighbor's front yard for free or shovel the snow off his friend's backyard for free or helped his best friend put together that vintage car or helped the local volunteer firefighter group was thinking in a very "commie" way without even knowing it. And you know what? Nothing happened. The USA survived and even thrived!!

Well, the problem with today's federal government is too deep to be able to articulate in less than 2 sentences. I think the biggest problem is that the country is just too big, with people on both sides professing very liberal tendencies and somewhere sandwiched in the middle a majority of people who still think that the Virgin Mary really got pregnant without getting jizzed and that "colored" people should have their own water fountains. In essence you have a handfull of states that have evolved, in every sense, while the rest of the country is still incapable, or unable (who knows!,) of leaving stupid irrational behaviours behind. When you have such disparity in ideas they are bound to collide politically. And when you have two groups of people fighting each other Big Business just stands on the side smiling, knowing full well that we will be easy prey, easily controlled and manipulated.

Those things you mentioned are voluntary, not ordered by the force of law and govt mandate. 

BTW - you liberals who attack big business are the same ones begging for jobs from them.

[MuscleMcMannus]

Good posts Slapper.  Thank you!

[Slapper]

Those things you mentioned are voluntary, not ordered by the force of law and govt mandate.

As far as I know, the little I know of, communism does not force you to work. Nonetheless, as with any other economic activity it recognizes that you and I must create something of value. It also recognizes the fact that we are communal beings by nature (aka tribal) and that we feel the closest affiliation (after your family of course) to out communities, hence their entire philosophy can be explained sort of like "take care of your own community, talk it out with your neighbors, get together with the people you work with and decide what is most beneficial for the ENTIRE group, not just a handful of executives". In essence, it puts the emphasis of sovereignty on yourself and your relationship to your community. The only problem? The state takes in money via taxes, hence the need for bureaucracy and the chance for corruption to rear its ugly head.

Now, I do not want to sound as though I am for communism, I am not, I just want to dissipate some of the erroneous stereotypes of communism and remove the stigma around anything that doesn't smell like people MUST make a profit otherwise the world is going down the drain. Let it be known, THERE ARE ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS.

BTW - you liberals who attack big business are the same ones begging for jobs from them.

Again, no one is ATTACKING Big Business, we are just DEMANDING, as The People, for some type of checks and balances, to force these people to pay their fair share to our society.

I, for one, AN AMERICAN, do not find "normal" or "democratic" to see an American corporation move its entire operation to let's say, for the sake of the argument, China because of cheaper labor costs, have the people over there work 6 days a week, 12 hour shifts, pay them $5 a day and then turn around, grab a bunch of pants that cost them $ 1.00 to make over in China and sell them here for $ 50.00. Which is what the American media are now praising as the new Chinese capitalist way of life by the way: Work loooooong hours, get grossly underpaid and don't complain. 

If you're not American enough to make your business here, you're not American enough to sell your business here!

[Soul Crusher]

As far as I know, the little I know of, communism does not force you to work. Nonetheless, as with any other economic activity it recognizes that you and I must create something of value. It also recognizes the fact that we are communal beings by nature (aka tribal) and that we feel the closest affiliation (after your family of course) to out communities, hence their entire philosophy can be explained sort of like "take care of your own community, talk it out with your neighbors, get together with the people you work with and decide what is most beneficial for the ENTIRE group, not just a handful of executives". In essence, it puts the emphasis of sovereignty on yourself and your relationship to your community. The only problem? The state takes in money via taxes, hence the need for bureaucracy and the chance for corruption to rear its ugly head.

Now, I do not want to sound as though I am for communism, I am not, I just want to dissipate some of the erroneous stereotypes of communism and remove the stigma around anything that doesn't smell like people MUST make a profit otherwise the world is going down the drain. Let it be known, THERE ARE ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS.

Again, no one is ATTACKING Big Business, we are just DEMANDING, as The People, for some type of checks and balances, to force these people to pay their fair share to our society.

I, for one, AN AMERICAN, do not find "normal" or "democratic" to see an American corporation move its entire operation to let's say, for the sake of the argument, China because of cheaper labor costs, have the people over there work 6 days a week, 12 hour shifts, pay them $5 a day and then turn around, grab a bunch of pants that cost them $ 1.00 to make over in China and sell them here for $ 50.00. Which is what the American media are now praising as the new Chinese capitalist way of life by the way: Work loooooong hours, get grossly underpaid and don't complain. 

If you're not American enough to make your business here, you're not American enough to sell your business here!

Maybe you should look at some of the reasons why these companies are forced to do this to stay alive;

1.  Workers Comp cpsts are insane.
2.  Employment lawsuits and mandates.
3.  Payroll taxes are very high for the employer.
4.  The costs of health care are outrageous.


I think most businesses would like to stay here, but if the costs are too high to where a product cant be produced in a reasonable manner as far as costs go, then businesses will just leave.

Just look at Ford GM and Chrysler.  Union costs and health care costs for each car are more than the steel itself used in the vehicle.

The bottom line is that the costs of doing business in this country are too high for most businesses that make a product.  If you want these jobs to come back, the costs of doing business need to come down drastically.

[Slapper]

Maybe you should look at some of the reasons why these companies are forced to do this to stay alive;

1.  Workers Comp cpsts are insane.
2.  Employment lawsuits and mandates.
3.  Payroll taxes are very high for the employer.
4.  The costs of health care are outrageous.

I think most businesses would like to stay here, but if the costs are too high to where a product cant be produced in a reasonable manner as far as costs go, then businesses will just leave.

Ok, so you are basically for maximization of profit for Big Business I presume. I guess your idea of an Big Business-friendly America is one that goes from what we know today, which is a workers' community which is suffocating American businesses to one in which we make increasing concesions to Big Business, like work long hours for free (which we already are,) get paid a lot less (our purchasing power is a lot less,) etc. We can look at workers compensations and if you chose to, I will take out the nice big graph showing how 10% of the country's people owe 73% of the wealth. Which is very illustrative of how SUFFOCATING American workers are on American Businesses. Fucking please!!

Or we can look at how it used to be years ago, when your grandpa and my grandpa were able to make a salary large enough to feed the entire family and put his kids through school and buy a house and cars. I mean, if they were able to do that, meaning being so financially SUFFOCATING on American business then that period of American history must've been the worst for Big Business. Was it? No. Not by a mile.

Just look at Ford GM and Chrysler.  Union costs and health care costs for each car are more than the steel itself used in the vehicle.

I actually studied the American auto industry as a case study in graduate school and EVERYONE in the collegiate levels knows that the reason why the American auto industry went down the drain has NOTHING to do with unions or the American worker. Ask anyone around the Detroit area what they think of GM and Chrysler and you'll see who the victim is.

The bottom line is that the costs of doing business in this country are too high for most businesses that make a product.  If you want these jobs to come back, the costs of doing business need to come down drastically.

No, that is a fallacy. Cost of doing business here is indeed higher than in many places around the world. The problem is that the potential profits are are higher than in pretty much anywhere else in the world (apart from China or India, which will have a higher potential in a few years because of the sheer size of their markets: almost 2.5 BILLION souls). Now, look at the world's 20 richest cocksuckers and YOU tell ME the American markets are done. Over. Finito.

You have to be one egotistical human being to seriously make the slave-like observations you just make. It's not the slave that needs the master, it's the other way around.

[Decker]

Maybe you should look at some of the reasons why these companies are forced to do this to stay alive;

1.  Workers Comp cpsts are insane.
2.  Employment lawsuits and mandates.
3.  Payroll taxes are very high for the employer.
4.  The costs of health care are outrageous.


I think most businesses would like to stay here, but if the costs are too high to where a product cant be produced in a reasonable manner as far as costs go, then businesses will just leave.

Just look at Ford GM and Chrysler.  Union costs and health care costs for each car are more than the steel itself used in the vehicle.

The bottom line is that the costs of doing business in this country are too high for most businesses that make a product.  If you want these jobs to come back, the costs of doing business need to come down drastically.

I notice your analysis did not include exploding executive compensation as a 'troubling cost'.

Let's just dispense with the masquerade of 'business economics' and fully push the race to the bottom in this country.  Health benefits--forget it.  Unionization--too expensive, forget it.  A safe workplace--what, and cut into the profit margin, forget it.  A livable wage--why? there's a child in India that can do your job for pennies on the dollar.  Forget it.

The american worker has no rights or expectations beyond those granted by his employer.

Worker security, job security, a livable wage, and all the other liberal bullshit is just a way to angry up the blood of the workforce...a workforce conditioned to have unreasonable expectations from honest employers only trying to stay in business and compete.

[Slapper]

The American worker is SOOO suffocating on businesses that SOME FUCKING HOW the number of millionaires increases every year:



The income gap between the "middle class" and the richest 10% keeps gettin larger:



We've got as many billionaires as the rest of the world combined:

Area              Millionaires     Billionaires
USA               2.7 million         371
Europe            2.8 million         196
Asia              2.4 million         140
Australia         0.4 million           7
South America     0.3 million          23
Canada            0.3 million          46
Africa            0.1 million           6

Now, you go tell the very same thing to the American worker who just lost his job and is now unable to pay for his mortgage.

Patriots for sure!

[Tre]

Not a chance.

I'll die before I watch this country fall into communist hands.

This country re-elected Bush. 

We sealed our own fate in 2004.   

We need to take our country BACK from these communists. 

[Hugo Chavez]

cool to see this thread actually had something productive come out of it

[Hereford]

Why, because the lefties like Mr. Slapper came to extol the wonders of communism?

I cannot believe how off-base and out of touch some of you are....

 

[Slapper]

Why, because the lefties like Mr. Slapper came to extol the wonders of communism?[...]

 

Me? Communism? Haha. No way José!

I chop my own wood dude. Literally!

[Hugo Chavez]

Why, because the lefties like Mr. Slapper came to extol the wonders of communism?

I cannot believe how off-base and out of touch some of you are....

 

Oh come on

[youandme]

Churchill said it best - capitlism is the worst form of govt, but it is better than anything else.

Capitilism as we have it today does not work, i agree.  But going to communism is not the answer.  

The problem is that there are no checks and balances and no accountability.  People who screw up should be held accountable, not bailed out.  Its the only way to ensure people will make catious decisions and not have a gambling emntality like we have had.

Great post I agree.

Haha both sides....this thread was a good read, oh man.   

[Hugo Chavez]

Great post I agree.

Haha both sides....this thread was a good read, oh man.   

I admit to laughing harder in this thread than I have in a long time here. I think I needed a good laugh in the middle of this harsh election.  You missed it, I had a hammer and sickle for my avatar   It was good to see some serious posts come out of it too.

[Soul Crusher]

I admit to laughing harder in this thread than I have in a long time here. I think I needed a good laugh in the middle of this harsh election.  You missed it, I had a hammer and sickle for my avatar   It was good to see some serious posts come out of it too.

Why not talk to small business owners and ask them what is the hardest things in business?  Its the costs, the taxes, the mandates that make it hard to produce anything.

I myself chose not to be a corporate slave and work for myself.  I will not subjugate myself to the corporate system and advise everyone else to do it if possible.

However, since we live in a global world and economy, in order to remain competitive we need to make businesses more competitive by helping bringing down costs in workers comp. , health benefits, etc.

Im not saying eliminate these things, but look at why the costs are so high.  I live in NY and there is currently a huge scandal with the LIRR where over 95% of all retirees are also on disability payments as well.  The cost of this fraud is 250 million a year.  Just going after the fraud component of workers comp, disability, medicare, medicade, etc, will help drive costs down.

Dont even get me started about the illgal alien disaster we have in this country and the financial mess it has caused.