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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: NoCalBbEr on June 08, 2008, 04:31:02 PM
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hey guys
I was thinking of doing the 10x10 training system for this week. i was wondering for the best back development, which is better barbell rows or the old deadlifts ??
thanks for the replies
p.s. for people that don't know. 10x10 training is when you pick compund movement for a body part and do 10 sets of 10 reps. Its excusing thing to shock your body to grow. you only pick one exerise per body part I.e. Germany volume training
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Sounds interesting, let us know how it works out for you.
As much as I love deadlifts, I'd go with the barbell rows.
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hmmm, thats actually a bit of a tough choice. I do both in my back workout, but i always do DL first (i do stiff legged as i train hams and back together) then a row, generally barbell.
I guess id recommend a DL of some sort. Keep us posted...
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hey guys
I was thinking of doing the 10x10 training system for this week. i was wondering for the best back development, which is better barbell rows or the old deadlifts ??
thanks for the replies
p.s. for people that don't know. 10x10 training is when you pick compund movement for a body part and do 10 sets of 10 reps. Its excusing thing to shock your body to grow. you only pick one exerise per body part I.e. Germany volume training
hahahaha
10 x 10 deadlifts?! You'll be toast dude, in practicality it makes no sense to choose deads for 10 x 10, no way in hell. Go with something like chinups instead for back development, and finish off with some rows.
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Oh, u dont have to choose only ONE exercise per bodypart for 10 x 10 necessarily. For the version I'm familiar with, there were rows in addition to 10 x 10 for chins.
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id do standing straight arm pull downs :P
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id do standing straight arm pull downs :P
fag
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lol !
fuck that one exercise bull i do em all !
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lol !
fuck that one exercise bull i do em all !
ONE exercise and ONE set to extreme failure! >:(
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rows. guaranteed 10x10 rows will hit just about everything in your back, especially by the end when you're using body english and really getting the lower back into things.
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hey guys
I was thinking of doing the 10x10 training system for this week. i was wondering for the best back development, which is better barbell rows or the old deadlifts ??
thanks for the replies
p.s. for people that don't know. 10x10 training is when you pick compund movement for a body part and do 10 sets of 10 reps. Its excusing thing to shock your body to grow. you only pick one exerise per body part I.e. Germany volume training
Both are good. Why exclude either? Don't be a pussy. >:(
;D
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Both are good. Why exclude either? Don't be a pussy. >:(
;D
good idea, row the weight for 10 reps, quickly add 1-2 plates per side and rep it out for another 10 reps of deads ;D
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good idea, row the weight for 10 reps, quickly add 1-2 plates per side and rep it out for another 10 reps of deads ;D
Why the hell not? ;D
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hey guys
I was thinking of doing the 10x10 training system for this week. i was wondering for the best back development, which is better barbell rows or the old deadlifts ??
thanks for the replies
p.s. for people that don't know. 10x10 training is when you pick compund movement for a body part and do 10 sets of 10 reps. Its excusing thing to shock your body to grow. you only pick one exerise per body part I.e. Germany volume training
10x10 doing deadlifts sounds like a really bad idea.
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DL's by all means. Remembering that you will be using a moderate weight and not wanting to go to failure on any one set. The muscles themselves will be the target, not the joints or ligaments, which in return lessens the stress on them. You will also get much stronger at the end of that training cycle, with the body getting use to handling a greater workload. DL's, as a compound movement, call into action the legs, hips/glutes and total back. Including the traps strongly. The BB row can be somewhat limited in this respect. Though BB rows can and have worked very well at times. Try both but at different times, not in the same workout.
If using 200lbs (for example, in the DL) than after the last set 2,000 lbs has been lifted in a short and focused period of time. And with more joint friendly workouts. The attack is on the muscles directly. You want to add weight every workout, increasing the tonnage. PL'ers and Olympic lifters have used a form of this Tonnage workout plan, but with much lower reps and heavier weight. In any event GVT is a 100 rep plan divided into rest periods (sets) until the full 100 reps are completed. Some PL'ers and Olympic lifters have used 10X2's (20 reps) or 10X3's (30 reps) in this style training. Most BB'ers may benefit from this rep scheme also.
You would only include one full compound exercise, per body part, in any GVT workout. Adding another compound exercise to a body area can be counter productive.This is a very intense system for the CNS and can take a little getting use to. Mental focus is also required. I know the first 3 sets or so will seem like sissy stuff. But after doing the 10th and last set you may change your mind. Most will gain pure muscle mass and gain quite a bit of strength when this 6 to 8 week training period is over with.
GVT also works very well with front squats (really brings up the quads/teardrops), power cleans (thickness to the total backas well as the shoulders) and weighted Dips. Good Luck.
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DL's by all means. Remembering that you will be using a moderate weight and not wanting to go to failure on any one set. The muscles themselves will be the target, not the joints or ligaments, which in return lessens the stress on them. You will also get much stronger at the end of that training cycle, with the body getting use to handling a greater workload. DL's, as a compound movement, call into action the legs, hips/glutes and total back. Including the traps strongly. The BB row can be somewhat limited in this respect. Though BB rows can and have worked very well at times. Try both but at different times, not in the same workout.
If using 200lbs (for example, in the DL) than after the last set 2,000 lbs has been lifted in a short and focused period of time. And with more joint friendly workouts. The attack is on the muscles directly. You want to add weight every workout, increasing the tonnage. PL'ers and Olympic lifters have used a form of this Tonnage workout plan, but with much lower reps and heavier weight. In any event GVT is a 100 rep plan divided into rest periods (sets) until the full 100 reps are completed. Some PL'ers and Olympic lifters have used 10X2's (20 reps) or 10X3's (30 reps) in this style training. Most BB'ers may benefit from this rep scheme also.
You would only include one full compound exercise, per body part, in any GVT workout. Adding another compound exercise to a body area can be counter productive.This is a very intense system for the CNS and can take a little getting use to. Mental focus is also required. I know the first 3 sets or so will seem like sissy stuff. But after doing the 10th and last set you may change your mind. Most will gain pure muscle mass and gain quite a bit of strength when this 6 to 8 week training period is over with.
GVT also works very well with front squats (really brings up the quads/teardrops), power cleans (thickness to the total backas well as the shoulders) and weighted Dips. Good Luck.
cant agree with doing 10x10 on deadlifts. you dont want to accumulate that amount of lower back fatigue. injury waiting to happen. even if the weights feel light at the start.
if you wanna do 10x10 for back. pick something like chins or rows (where chest is supported)
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Actually you will be building up the back muscles to insure resistance to future injury with proper form DL'ing. That being the prime motivation and reason for progressive exercise. That is, if any back exercise is approached with reason and logic. If you have a spinal misalinement, had a serious disc accident (I had a operation on my L4 and L5 in college..result of football) or any other other physical problem than get that problem attended to first. Many men may not know that they could have a potential underlining back problem and had it for years. The injury themselves through lifting and than blame lifting.
To rebuild the muscle structure of my lower back after the operation many sets of light GoodMornings and SLDL's were done. Exceptional results were gained by me. All under the careful eye of the sport medicine doctor at the university where I was playing to at the time of the injury.
The BB row will put extra stress on the lower back, even if the knees are bent quite a bit. That row when lying prone on a flat bench (if that is what is meant by supported by the chest) can be hard on some men's breathing and even compress the chest, restricting the blood flow also when even moderate weight is used.
You are going to gather a certain amount of fatique on the lower back or any other muscle area . Do not fear it. Fatique is not always a negative thing, more of a byproduct of training and having a muscle worked well. Of course the extreme is present if any exerecise is not follower with logic, in the form of a well planned workout. Good Luck.
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10x10 doing deadlifts sounds like a really bad idea.
I tried it once in March. doing 10 sets of 225lb deads doesn't sound all that impressive on paper but after doing 6 + sets my legs were killing me. I was on the floor after 6 sets.
its more a mental thing. To keep going.
I think GVT is going to lead to overtraining with prolong use.. but if you look at a genal GVT program. your really doing about 25 sets. which is equal to many of the programs that people use now.
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if i HAD to choose, i would choose BB rows, but i would deadlift the barbell off the floor for each set of rows...
8)
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Actually you will be building up the back muscles to insure resistance to future injury with proper form DL'ing. That being the prime motivation and reason for progressive exercise. That is, if any back exercise is approached with reason and logic. If you have a spinal misalinement, had a serious disc accident (I had a operation on my L4 and L5 in college..result of football) or any other other physical problem than get that problem attended to first. Many men may not know that they could have a potential underlining back problem and had it for years. The injury themselves through lifting and than blame lifting.
To rebuild the muscle structure of my lower back after the operation many sets of light GoodMornings and SLDL's were done. Exceptional results were gained by me. All under the careful eye of the sport medicine doctor at the university where I was playing to at the time of the injury.
The BB row will put extra stress on the lower back, even if the knees are bent quite a bit. That row when lying prone on a flat bench (if that is what is meant by supported by the chest) can be hard on some men's breathing and even compress the chest, restricting the blood flow also when even moderate weight is used.
You are going to gather a certain amount of fatique on the lower back or any other muscle area . Do not fear it. Fatique is not always a negative thing, more of a byproduct of training and having a muscle worked well. Of course the extreme is present if any exerecise is not follower with logic, in the form of a well planned workout. Good Luck.
well its not a question of fearing hard work or fatigue in itself , its a question of training smart. the deadlift is the kind of exercise in which you shouldnt be doing high reps at all in my opinion (i know some people advocate sets of 20 in the deadlift...totally stupid i think), its a different animal from many other exercises. when the lower back gets fatigued, form breakes down in many cases, which may open up for injuries to the lower back. doing 10 sets of pretty high reps (i consider 10 reps..to be high reps in the deadlift) in the deadlift is very dangerous to recommend.
i wouldnt even recommend doing one set of 10 (with heavy weights) in the deadlift, let alone 10 sets! for deadlifts id recommend people to stay in the 1-5 rep zone (and no that doesnt mean that you need to work with max weights all the time or go to failure).
the second reason is that massive accumulated lower back fatigue may impact your other training days (lower back takes the longest of all 'muscle groups' to recover). obviously this is individual and can be gotten around by not doing squats at all and instead doing legpress etc. still something you have to consider
regarding lower back fatigue: obviously its normal when you work hard, and isnt something you should fear. but alot of people forget to factor in lower back fatigue in their routines. i see some people loading the lower back heavy 3-4 days a week, and that maybe be (is) too much for many people. (altho work capacity is something that can be improved)
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I tried it once in March. doing 10 sets of 225lb deads doesn't sound all that impressive on paper but after doing 6 + sets my legs were killing me. I was on the floor after 6 sets.
its more a mental thing. To keep going.
I think GVT is going to lead to overtraining with prolong use.. but if you look at a genal GVT program. your really doing about 25 sets. which is equal to many of the programs that people use now.
there you go. now you have two reasons not to do it.
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Actually 25 sets is never done in a workout. Could not think of how that number would be connected to GVT unless it is based on not really understanding the princple of GVT. There is one exercise (compound) per body part only. And that being made up of 10 sets max (100 reps). GVT is half mental and half physical, as all lifting is, by far. Getting over the mental barriers result in more progressive workouts.
Some folks will drop out after 5 or 6 sets because of using too heavy a weight at the start of 10X10's. Anyone will have to ease themselves into this style of training. Doing any new program will take between 2 to 3 week to get adjusted to. I can see why NoCalBbEr had a problem when he did it "once" and could not do beyond 6 sets. That and thinking that GVT revolves around 25 sets. Instead of that starting 225lb he might have been better served with 150lbs (or less) for a few workouts and than advance from there.
I would doubt that any person will accumulated massive fatique (hopefully not to be confused with stress)of the muscles if a workout is approached correctly and with common sense. That is not the point of working out. PL'ers understand this, who handle huge weight in their training. If people want to do stupid stuff and not really understan what they are doing in a workout than that is their concern. GVT can offer a ways to increase the muscle mass and also the ability to strengthen the body when using a 6 to 8 week training cycle. And probably twice to three times a year. There is much less strain on the joints/ligaments because of the moderate weight used. Not for everyone? Of course not, but than again, pick your own device.
I do not want this to become one of those never ending circular disagreements that the Mercurial Messiah of Manteca seems so keen on, so this should be my final comment on this subject. Good Luck.
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Personally 10 x 10 on deads could be dangerous IMO........I`d go for the BB Row or T-Bar Row with moderate weight and excellent form.
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You're all a buncha pussies, let him do his damn deadlifts. I mean if you dont max out too hard and lower the weight after some of the heavier sets as well as stay focused and keep it tight i think its quite doable.
Also dont wear a belt to do this. I'm a firm believer in not wearing a belt to deadlift. I use a belt for every workout EXCEPT deadlifts..go figure. I find wearing a belt makes you somewhat ignore what your lower back is telling you.
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You're all a buncha pussies, let him do his damn deadlifts. I mean if you dont max out too hard and lower the weight after some of the heavier sets as well as stay focused and keep it tight i think its quite doable.
Agreed.
People seem to be thinking that the weight has to be increased every set or stay the same. As you said, when you start to struggle after a certain amount of sets, just lower the weight. Your last set will be fairly light most likely, but it sure as hell wont feel light.
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Agreed.
People seem to be thinking that the weight has to be increased every set or stay the same. As you said, when you start to struggle after a certain amount of sets, just lower the weight. Your last set will be fairly light most likely, but it sure as hell wont feel light.
Exactly, thats what i usually do, i work up to my max for waht i can do for maybe 4 reps, because i dont believe too strongly in singles. then if i know i wont be able to pull the same weight for at least maybe at least 3 reps i'll knock it down a bit for soemthign i can manage more. Its really all about listening to your body, sure ya wanna go heavy as fuck, and i do, but ya gotta do it smart.
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Exactly, thats what i usually do, i work up to my max for waht i can do for maybe 4 reps, because i dont believe too strongly in singles. then if i know i wont be able to pull the same weight for at least maybe at least 3 reps i'll knock it down a bit for soemthign i can manage more. Its really all about listening to your body, sure ya wanna go heavy as fuck, and i do, but ya gotta do it smart.
lifting smart and doing singles are not mutually exclusive. otherwise strength sports as a whole would not exist.
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lifting smart and doing singles are not mutually exclusive. otherwise strength sports as a whole would not exist.
Exactly.
A "single" is not always a max attempt.
8)
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even then, you can max out intelligently. there's a difference between "doing the most your body can handle" and "doing whatever it takes to make this weight move."
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even then, you can max out intelligently. there's a difference between "doing the most your body can handle" and "doing whatever it takes to make this weight move."
finally someone gets this!
as far as barbell rows or deadlifts... do both. they both work things differently...if we only needed one exercise for arms for example..we'd all be blown the fuck up from doing only barbell curls. All exercises have their place..
but if you don't deadlift..you better start.