Author Topic: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out  (Read 11873 times)

Soul Crusher

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #100 on: November 21, 2008, 02:04:54 PM »
How do you know this:  "They are making it very difficult to compete internationally."?

Doesn't practically any US based manufacturer get killed on the cost of labor b/c our competitors pay pennies on the dollar comparativley speaking?

Is our country doomed to race to the bottom for labor so that we are 'on par' with the lowest paying unregulated shithole country on the planet?

These are the things I think about instead of doing my damn job.

Not necessairily.  If they put ourt a preimum product that commanded and justified the higher prices, they would be ok.  the proble is that they put out a product that cant compete with similarly priced BMW, Merceds, Toyota, Honda, etc.

For the same money, the other companies put out a much better product.

 

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #101 on: November 21, 2008, 02:10:19 PM »
Not necessairily.  If they put ourt a preimum product that commanded and justified the higher prices, they would be ok.  the proble is that they put out a product that cant compete with similarly priced BMW, Merceds, Toyota, Honda, etc.

For the same money, the other companies put out a much better product.

 
Is choice and design of the product the responsibility of rank and file unionized labor?  Or is that the province of ownership/management?

OzmO

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #102 on: November 21, 2008, 02:48:19 PM »
Dude, Ozmo... I am a GM shareholder... and we are getting royally screwed across the board.

The management is covering the union contracts, and nothing else.

The union is getting theirs but the shareholders aren't?

Soul Crusher

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #103 on: November 21, 2008, 05:14:18 PM »
Is choice and design of the product the responsibility of rank and file unionized labor?  Or is that the province of ownership/management?

No, but the costs they impose on the company mean that they cant produce a decent low priced reliable vehicle.

Without the high unions legacy costs, at least they could be competitive on price.

Hedgehog

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #104 on: November 21, 2008, 09:18:34 PM »
Yep - pricing themselves out of a job doesn't seem very wise.



It is.
Because on matter how much you slash the salaries in USA, you will never be able to compete with low-wage countries like India and Vietnam.
What USA needs to compete with, is quality.
And right now German cars, Jap cars, French cars, et al, are much better.
 The union in Germany is strong - it has forced the car industry to be effective and build very good cars.
The car industry in Germany is also in continuous transformation - rationalisations, new divisions opening, old closening, et al.
One of the reasons is because the union pushes for good salaries - BUT DOESN'T TRY TO PREVENT OBSOLETE INDUSTRIES TO CLOSE.
To ask the unions to lower the salaries won't fix the problem of bad cars.
Neither will any deregulation of environmental laws.
Quite the opposite - the reason why American cars are so bad, except for a few of Ford's products, is because the cars were made to fit the gas price in the US, whereas in Europe and Asia the gas price has always been higher - forcing the carmakers to build smaller and more efficient cars, and even alternative fuel sources.
However, I think if any nation will find something to replace gas with, then it is USA.
USA has a record of getting science projects done.       
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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #105 on: November 21, 2008, 09:21:40 PM »
And how do the autoworkers differ from the wall street bankers who received a big piece of the 700 billion Bush Bailout?

They don't, I didn't agree with that at all.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #106 on: November 22, 2008, 05:32:48 AM »

It is.
Because on matter how much you slash the salaries in USA, you will never be able to compete with low-wage countries like India and Vietnam.
What USA needs to compete with, is quality.
And right now German cars, Jap cars, French cars, et al, are much better.
 The union in Germany is strong - it has forced the car industry to be effective and build very good cars.
The car industry in Germany is also in continuous transformation - rationalisations, new divisions opening, old closening, et al.
One of the reasons is because the union pushes for good salaries - BUT DOESN'T TRY TO PREVENT OBSOLETE INDUSTRIES TO CLOSE.
To ask the unions to lower the salaries won't fix the problem of bad cars.
Neither will any deregulation of environmental laws.
Quite the opposite - the reason why American cars are so bad, except for a few of Ford's products, is because the cars were made to fit the gas price in the US, whereas in Europe and Asia the gas price has always been higher - forcing the carmakers to build smaller and more efficient cars, and even alternative fuel sources.
However, I think if any nation will find something to replace gas with, then it is USA.
USA has a record of getting science projects done.       

Good post.  The issue is quality.  People will pay more for what they perceive as a good product.  That is why I did not mind spending more for a BMW.  i knew I was getting a great product.  When I get in the car in the morning, my first thought is not what is going to break down or did I remember the phone number of AAA.

The US car companies and the unions did this to themselves and need to go bankrupt in order to possibly save themselves.

Even now the Unions are resisting change.  Its unreal.

Slapper

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #107 on: November 22, 2008, 07:43:43 AM »
Some fun facts about the American worker and what WE are up against:

1. American workers are the most productive workers in the world;

2. Average inflation-adjusted wages today are only 15% higher than in 1980, despite a 67% increase in productivity;

3. Employees’ pay declined to 51.6% of national income, from the previous low of 52.4% in both 2005 and 2004, according the CBPP’s analysis of federal government data. Small percentage declines can make a big difference because each one-tenth of 1 percent amounts to $117 billion in national income, CBPP said. In contrast, corporate profits’ share of national income has increased sharply each year since the 2001 recession, when they bottomed out at 8.5 percent, and hit 13.8 percent in 2006, matching the record high set in 1942.

4. Since 1960, the average federal tax rates for middle-income households have increased and then declined modestly. Over the same period, high-income households saw sharp drops in their federal tax rates. As a result, writes the CBPP:

the share of the nation’s total income going to the top 1 percent of households jumped from 8.4 percent in 1970 to 19.3 percent in 2005, an increase of 10.8 percentage points. In 2005 terms, that increase works out to about $550,000 more in income per household for those in the top 1 percent. In other words, households in this income group received an average of about $550,000 more in income in 2005 than they would have if the group’s share of national had remained constant since 1970.

5. Of the slightly less than $2.7 trillion the federal government spent in fiscal year 2006, some 21 percent of the budget, or $557 billion, went to pay for defense, homeland security and security-related international activities. Another 21 percent of the budget, or $549 billion, went to Social Security, which provided retirement benefits averaging $964 per month to 34 million retired workers (and dependents of retirees) in the last month of fiscal year 2006. Meanwhile, social safety net programs—such as unemployment insurance, child care assistance and low-income housing—made up only 9 percent of the budget hardship.

6. While U.S. workers are feeling the pain of a decline in compensation and decreasing share of the national budget pie, those with jobs have even more to fear: Under the Bush corporate-greed economy, nearly any worker in the United States also faces the same risks as the 3,400 Circuit City workers laid off because they are being paid too much and the 17,000 Citigroup workers, professional employees who are seeing their presumably safe jobs shipped overseas.

Now, I know I am stepping out of subject here, and I apologize for it, but I must say what I have in mind. It's not the American worker who is fucking up the economy, WE ARE THE FUCKING ECONOMY! All we have to do is look at income disparity graphs, JUST ONE GRAPH, and you tell me, with a straight face, that it's the unions who are fucking up the economy. I'm not asking you to trust my word, reasearch it yourself, just one graph please.



The productivity vs wages relationship:



Union activity is not anywhere close to what it used to be back in the 20s to the 50s. You connect the dots.

Warning: The disconect between productivity and wages is now so large that even though you may be getting paid more than your father did, in real terms, meaning time vs compensation, you are getting paid a lot less than your dad did. Furthermore, the cost of living has gone up dramatically, so in essence, again, in REAL TERMS, we are, as a whole, making less money.

Slapper

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #108 on: November 22, 2008, 07:59:23 AM »
In essence, IN ANY ECONOMY, it's foundation if you will, is the activity of creating something of value. Doing each other's laundry does not create any economic value. Manufacturing jobs create a lot of value. Building houses creates a lot of value. Selling shares of a company creates no value. Sitting on the board of a company creates no value. Hence, as the story goes, and this has happened time and time again before: Once the value-creating jobs go, the economy goes too.

So, if you ask me, who is the likely culprit of all these companies going bankrupt, the "overpaid" workers or the CEOs of these companies I'd point at the CEOs. I mean, I'm speaking from a logical point of view here.


Soul Crusher

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #109 on: November 22, 2008, 08:06:49 AM »
You cant force people to buy sub-par overpriced products. 

The other fact is that state and local taxes are destroying the economy and middle class.

The govenment and those who vote for ever increased spending on everything for cradle to the grave programs is to blame for most of our problems.

Where I live, the average person pays 10k per year in property taxes alone!  The government is the biggest thief in the nation and is robbing all productive people to pay for non-productive people. 

Things are only going to get worse as this continues.


Hedgehog

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #110 on: November 22, 2008, 08:20:54 AM »
Slapper, the problem is that the companies have been trying to sell cars on price and size, not on quality.

The unions are to blame as well.
Instead of accepting factory closings and demanding new laboring market strategies from the congress and the president, they've tried to save old factories, thus making it harder for the Big Three to compete with foreign cars.

The unions have to be wealthy and able to support their members when they lose their jobs, otherwise you'll be stuck with unions who fights for obsolete plants with no future.   
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Slapper

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #111 on: November 22, 2008, 08:42:29 AM »
You cant force people to buy sub-par overpriced products.

Right, so you ship the jobs to China and the Chinese sell them back to you for ¼ the price, much higher quality mind you, for about 2 years and then develop a serious case of liver disease because the product contained some type of chemical harmful to humans. That is a fair trade off.

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The other fact is that state and local taxes are destroying the economy and middle class.

No, local and state taxes pay for most everything (infrastructure-wise) that you see around you. What is really unfair is the Income Tax and the majority of federal taxes.

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The government and those who vote for ever increased spending on everything for cradle to the grave programs is to blame for most of our problems.

The problem is not in the spending, it's on the collecting. What has happened here is that the US government has had a rather large increase in spending without being accompanied by an increase of taxes on the 1% of the richest Americans, who've actually seen the real tax liability reduced during the past decades. REDUCED dude, REDUCED. So, in essence the government is spending inflationary money that will eventually have to be paid by the middle class somehow (most likely the Social Security system). The biggest problem is that we are not allowed to convene in public in order to protest our representatives DIRECTLY, with the only option available being writing to these representatives, who are amongst the most corrupt in the world.

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Where I live, the average person pays 10k per year in property taxes alone!  The government is the biggest thief in the nation and is robbing all productive people to pay for nonproductive people.
 

I pay more than you and I am extremely happy with the choice I made (I used to live in NYC). Local and state taxes make that possible.

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Things are only going to get worse as this continues.

Well, we've got a media that is simply not telling us the truth. We've got representatives in power that sell their vote on every possible measure that is pro-people for an all-inclusive trip to Bora Bora for the entire family. We've got seriously UNINFORMED people running around doing exactly that: uninforming. All of this gives everyone a sense of helplessness, a "what the fuck is going on?!" kind of feeling.

Slapper

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #112 on: November 22, 2008, 09:13:53 AM »
Slapper, the problem is that the companies have been trying to sell cars on price and size, not on quality.

Look, I'm in no better position to make bold statement as to whose fault it is. All I've said about the problem is that I remember doing a case study on the auto industry, while in graduate school, and reading interviews with some operation management gurus openly criticizing American auto makers for making some stupidly moronic moves and being unwilling to adapting new production methods. I also vividly remember, and this I am repeating, discussing some of the communications between the industry insiders (including CEOs) and none of what was being said involved unions (so I presume they were not a problem).   

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The unions are to blame as well.

I'm sure they have some blame to share. Nonetheless I totally disagree with the misconception that unions ARE the problem. Well, they may be the problem but they are also the solution. By this I mean that there isn't a more interested party for the company's success than the workers themselves. The CEOs and the rest of the officers do care to the extent they have FULL control. Unions challenge a very old order based on a firm belief that those who accumulate do not like to share, bottom line, and unions are often framed as The Cause of any company going down the drain. Look at the economic state of affairs nowadays: plenty of companies going down the drain, some with minimal union representation and going down the drain any way. Look at the massacre of the Internet Bubble: no unions involved whatsoever and all these companies went belly up anyway.

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Instead of accepting factory closings and demanding new laboring market strategies from the congress and the president, they've tried to save old factories, thus making it harder for the Big Three to compete with foreign cars.

Well, most of the factory closing crap is caused by the fact that some companies have a vested interest in totally destroying the American union and the American worker. They do not want people making $50.00 an hour. They want slaves to work for $ 10.00 an hour in some foreign country with minimal working conditions, 7 days a week, for 12 hours straight. These new class of CEOs just do not want to share the decision-making process. Bottom line. They do not take any input from unions, even though they've gone very far in making concesions to Big Car. Instead, Big Car has made Detroit a virtual war-ravaged city, where unemployment is rampant and bankrupcies are increasing every day. Instead, the media does its role of propagandist making it seem as though it's always the union's fault (even though today's working conditions: 5-day workweek, paid overtime, retirement and heath benefits are ALL battles the unions won) and the companies semi-enslavement of foreign workers seem like they're running a charity event from which all Americans are eventually benefit. Wait until all these companies that are now selling you the shit you used to pay $ 5 dollars for for $ 2.50 turn around and sell it to ya at $ 7.00 when all competition is gone and balance sheets require profits go up so that a particularly bad quarter could be "painted over" with unforeseen profits. Nike is already doing it. Starbucks is already doing it. I mean Nike pays $ 5.00 for assembling their sneakers in Vietnam and retails the very same pair of sneakers back in the American market for $ 100.00. Believe me on this: ALL PRODUCTS THAT HAVE SEEN THEIR PRICED REDUCED BECAUSE OF OUTSOURCING WILL GO BACK UP IN A DECADE OR SO. These people are ruthless, they want more for themselves and less for us (check the graphs if you do not believe me!). The "us" being 99% of the population of course, aka The Economy.


Soul Crusher

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #113 on: November 22, 2008, 09:17:40 AM »
I will say it again, you cant force people to buy overpriced sub par products unless you want a communist state.

also, if you think taxing people more is a way to success, you are seriously delusioned. 

Slapper

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #114 on: November 22, 2008, 09:27:06 AM »
I will say it again, you cant force people to buy overpriced sub par products unless you want a communist state.

Again, are you implying ALL American products are overpriced?

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also, if you think taxing people more is a way to success, you are seriously delusioned.

No dude, I AM NOT saying more taxes is the answer. I am saying quite the opposite: less spending. The problem is we live is a hidden pseudo-communist system in which every game is rigged: companies have to be bailed out, trariffs have to be raised, taxes have to be cut (for the rich of course), etc. Since there are so many "mouths" to "feed", such a large system of privilege to maintain, it is no wander that spending is going out of control. This has been discussed many times before. This ain't new. Capitalism will be gone and will make a comeback in the future. Same with communism and any other economic or totalitarian system that has existed and will exist. There's, however, "CONSTANTS" in this whole equation: Labor and wages. People who need money vs people who have money. Companies that have jobs vs people who need jobs. Et cetera. What defines us as humans is how much we fight to keep that ratio tilted toward a more "humane" level. Note: By humane I mean 5% of people owing 80% of the shit. Seem rather unfair but at this point, seeing what people are willing to settle for, seems like a plausible alternative.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #115 on: November 22, 2008, 09:42:52 AM »
No, the automobiles are overpriced. 

Ask yourself - if you have 35k to purchase a car - is a chevy or ford on the top of your list?????????????

Slapper

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #116 on: November 22, 2008, 10:30:22 AM »
No, the automobiles are overpriced.

All of them? 

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Ask yourself - if you have 35k to purchase a car - is a chevy or ford on the top of your list????????????

You're losing me. What are you trying to say?


Soul Crusher

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #117 on: November 22, 2008, 11:09:54 AM »
All of them? 

You're losing me. What are you trying to say?



What I am trying to say is the consumers have many available choices to them in many price ranges.  Dollar for Dollar, most consumers believe, rightly or wrongly, that their dollars are better spent on foreign vehicles due to quality issues.

If I have 35k to spend, I am looking at a BMW 3 Series, Honda Ridgeline, Mercedes, or maybe a Ford F150.

People want reliable good transportation without issues.  For many years, the US auto has not been able to deliver that.

I have a Ford Explorer and will NEVER buy another.  My next purchase id A nissan Frontier or a Ridgeline. 

The service also stinks at Ford dealerships.  STINKS!

Deicide

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #118 on: November 22, 2008, 01:30:16 PM »
The Jews...all the Jews... :o
I hate the State.

Slapper

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #119 on: November 22, 2008, 02:40:43 PM »
What I am trying to say is the consumers have many available choices to them in many price ranges.  Dollar for Dollar, most consumers believe, rightly or wrongly, that their dollars are better spent on foreign vehicles due to quality issues.

If I have 35k to spend, I am looking at a BMW 3 Series, Honda Ridgeline, Mercedes, or maybe a Ford F150.

People want reliable good transportation without issues.  For many years, the US auto has not been able to deliver that.

I have a Ford Explorer and will NEVER buy another.  My next purchase id A nissan Frontier or a Ridgeline. 

The service also stinks at Ford dealerships.  STINKS!

Well, I mean, that is your choice. My parents had a Chrysler, a Ford and a Chevy and had no major problems. I've had a Colorado, a Sable and now have a foreign car (Volkswagen) and will never buy another one in my life. That has been my experience. Everytime I need to change the oil I have to fork over almost $500 for an oil change and a tune up. I had to replace a fuse on the car's computer and had to wait 1 week to get it shipped from Germany. I have plenty of stories. Best car? The Mercury Sable. That thing was as heavy as a friggin tank, but it lasted me 15 years without any problems.

Slapper

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #120 on: November 22, 2008, 02:50:36 PM »
The Jews...all the Jews... :o

Hardcore.

muscleforlife

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #121 on: November 22, 2008, 05:43:22 PM »
No bailout.

My initial impulse was to bail out the automakers.  The ripple effect of one or more of them going under or bankrupt would be horribly painful, but maybe it’s time for some pain.  We can’t put it off forever and as the CEOs flap their tongues before congress it is clear that they still do not get it.

As one of their congressional interlocutors observed, there is something wrong when three CEOs fly in to Washington DC on three private jets (by definition a luxury) asking for taxpayer money.  Couldn’t they have “jetpooled” together and come in on one private plane?  Couldn’t they have downgraded to a First Class ticket on a commercial flight?  They all talk about “scaling back” “reorganizing” and “changing the way they do business” but if they can’t set the example with their own perks what possible incentive do we have to believe that they will be any more responsible with taxpayer money?

And, yes, the unions are to blame too.  The writing has been on the wall for some time; when you hitch your future to a sinking ship and continue to demand more from that ship, you have only yourself to blame when the shit hits the fan.  :'(


I also agree with no bailout.  Where the Hell did the first 290 billion go?  The banks are holding onto the money, like stuffing it into the mattress.

If the automakers didn't see the handwriting on the wall 20 years ago, then that is shortsightedness on the corporate level.
If the bailout does come forth, it should come hand in hand with bankruptcy and other conditions.  Kick all of those top people on the top out.  It is obvious they don't know or don't care about anything but their own pockets
How many private jets does it take to go to washington to get in line for the the tax payers money?  Each one takes his or her own private jet.  The arrogance is astounding!
Let all of those who cry "welfare for lazy people is bad"  apply that to multimillion dollar PRIVATE OWNED businesses.
It Is NOT my JOB to keep you in the style you have become accustomed.  You are ready to chuck the hourly waged earner to the side... Well, right back at you!
Sandra

muscleforlife

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #122 on: November 22, 2008, 05:46:08 PM »
All of these overpaid slobs need to go. 

Starting from the top.
Sandra

muscleforlife

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #123 on: November 22, 2008, 05:52:48 PM »
Let them deal with it on thier own, that's what we have bankruptcy laws for. F**k em.
BINGO!

This is what capitilism is all about.
So, if Coach's business falls, he has a backup plan or someone else will come in and pick up the slack.

otherwise it is socialism.  The nation as a whole will "prop up" this PRIVATE business and hope for the best.

I, as a tax paying citizen would like to have a voice to say "NO"  or "YES" 
And if failing buisnesses and failing mortgages are online....
I have some bills that I want to be taken care of also, where is the end of the line? 
Sandra
 

OzmO

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #124 on: November 22, 2008, 07:12:38 PM »
BINGO!

This is what capitilism is all about.
So, if Coach's business falls, he has a backup plan or someone else will come in and pick up the slack.

otherwise it is socialism.  The nation as a whole will "prop up" this PRIVATE business and hope for the best.

I, as a tax paying citizen would like to have a voice to say "NO"  or "YES" 
And if failing buisnesses and failing mortgages are online....
I have some bills that I want to be taken care of also, where is the end of the line? 
Sandra
 


Yeah, you have to wonder why.  The tax payer bails out the company that does NOTHING for them (save of course the employees) and that company still makes crappy cars.