The difference between Religion and Spirituality

[Hedgehog]

Thanks 

You may be looking for a statement that is simply not there (in the source). 

But it does make me curious as to what they mean by "remain in the faith" and what this entails.  We could ask haidar or ask Toxy to ask his parents.  It could just be "belief" or it could include works.  Maybe it means something else entirely?   What do you think it means Hedge?

Ok.

Here's the deal: You claim that Islam is works based.

I am just asking you, not haider or Toxy, what do you base that statement on?

[MB_722]

did you read the article I posted on the first page?

[Butterbean]

Ok.

Here's the deal: You claim that Islam is works based.

I am just asking you, not haider or Toxy, what do you base that statement on?

I was basing it from things I had learned about Islam in general.  This included at least some of the 5 pillars described above.  In my understanding it seemed they must keep/perform (at least some of) 5 pillars which constitute works-based in my opinion.  Of course people can be mistaken at times and perhaps I am/was.  But upon further review of web-based research I've come across the following:


"Indeed those, who have believed [now] and those, who became Jews and the Nazarenes and the Sabaeans, whoever truly believes in God and the Day of Judgment and does good deeds, they shall have their reward with their Lord. There they shall neither fear [the future] nor regret [the past]." Al-Baqarah 2:62


"The believers will most definitely succeed (in the hereafter). Those who humble themselves in their prayers; who avoid vanities, who are active in deeds of charity; who preserve their chastity except from their spouses and from those whom they own, for they are free from blame, but those whose desires exceed those limits are transgressors; and those who faithfully observe their trusts and their agreements; who (strictly) guard their prayers; these will be the heirs; who will inherit paradise, they will dwell therein for ever." Al-Mu'minoon 23:1-11


 
I just looked for our copy of the Qur'an and can't find it.  Do you know if those are truly verses from the Qur'an Zach?

did you read the article I posted on the first page?

Interesting article MB_722.  Thank you.  Do you know anything about Daniel Pipes' background?

[MB_722]

Do you know anything about Daniel Pipes' background?

nothing

... after further reading, seems to be a Neo-Con.

[columbusdude82]

Yes, Daniel Pipes is a neo-con. Regardless of whether you like neo-cons or not, I urge everyone with an interest in middle-east/Islamic affairs to read Pipes' writings.

[haider]

I was basing it from things I had learned about Islam in general.  This included at least some of the 5 pillars described above.  In my understanding it seemed they must keep/perform (at least some of) 5 pillars which constitute works-based in my opinion.  Of course people can be mistaken at times and perhaps I am/was.  But upon further review of web-based research I've come across the following:


"Indeed those, who have believed [now] and those, who became Jews and the Nazarenes and the Sabaeans, whoever truly believes in God and the Day of Judgment and does good deeds, they shall have their reward with their Lord. There they shall neither fear [the future] nor regret [the past]." Al-Baqarah 2:62


"The believers will most definitely succeed (in the hereafter). Those who humble themselves in their prayers; who avoid vanities, who are active in deeds of charity; who preserve their chastity except from their spouses and from those whom they own, for they are free from blame, but those whose desires exceed those limits are transgressors; and those who faithfully observe their trusts and their agreements; who (strictly) guard their prayers; these will be the heirs; who will inherit paradise, they will dwell therein for ever." Al-Mu'minoon 23:1-11


 
I just looked for our copy of the Qur'an and can't find it.  Do you know if those are truly verses from the Qur'an Zach?




Interesting article MB_722.  Thank you.  Do you know anything about Daniel Pipes' background?

They are indeed from the Qur'an, lol you should probably inquire a muslim first abt the veracity of Qur'anic verses  Islam, and religion in general is largely misunderstood both by people who follow it, and also those who try to discredit it IMO. When it comes to religion, to each his own, truth isn't found in any one religion.. they are all basically the same, appropraiite for the time and age for when they came into existence. This also demands that religion have a dynamic, that suits it to the environment wherein it is to be followed, not the other way around.

[Butterbean]

They are indeed from the Qur'an, lol you should probably inquire a muslim first abt the veracity of Qur'anic verses  Islam, and religion in general is largely misunderstood both by people who follow it, and also those who try to discredit it IMO. When it comes to religion, to each his own, truth isn't found in any one religion.. they are all basically the same, appropraiite for the time and age for when they came into existence. This also demands that religion have a dynamic, that suits it to the environment wherein it is to be followed, not the other way around.

Thanks for your input haidar 

Is it your understanding according to Islam that certain works are needed for a Muslim to reach heaven?

In addition, what do you think "keeping the faith" would entail?

Thanks!

[Hedgehog]

I was basing it from things I had learned about Islam in general.  This included at least some of the 5 pillars described above.  In my understanding it seemed they must keep/perform (at least some of) 5 pillars which constitute works-based in my opinion.  Of course people can be mistaken at times and perhaps I am/was.  But upon further review of web-based research I've come across the following:


"Indeed those, who have believed [now] and those, who became Jews and the Nazarenes and the Sabaeans, whoever truly believes in God and the Day of Judgment and does good deeds, they shall have their reward with their Lord. There they shall neither fear [the future] nor regret [the past]." Al-Baqarah 2:62


"The believers will most definitely succeed (in the hereafter). Those who humble themselves in their prayers; who avoid vanities, who are active in deeds of charity; who preserve their chastity except from their spouses and from those whom they own, for they are free from blame, but those whose desires exceed those limits are transgressors; and those who faithfully observe their trusts and their agreements; who (strictly) guard their prayers; these will be the heirs; who will inherit paradise, they will dwell therein for ever." Al-Mu'minoon 23:1-11


 
I just looked for our copy of the Qur'an and can't find it.  Do you know if those are truly verses from the Qur'an Zach?




Interesting article MB_722.  Thank you.  Do you know anything about Daniel Pipes' background?

What your opinion on this part STella?

[Butterbean]

What your opinion on this part STella?

Do you intend to answer any of the questions I've asked you so far in this thread Zach?

[Hedgehog]

Do you intend to answer any of the questions I've asked you so far in this thread Zach?

You made the claim that some religions had things that you would have to do/not do to get into heaven.

I challenged that claim.

I don't see what it is that I should be answering in this thread, although if there is any claim I made here, I will gladly try to sort out what I meant.

As far as the Qur'an verses, it's a long while since I read the Qur'an in its entirety, and at least a couple of months since I last read parts of it.  So no, I don't know if those surahs are accurate.

[Butterbean]

You made the claim that some religions had things that you would have to do/not do to get into heaven.

I challenged that claim.

I don't see what it is that I should be answering in this thread, although if there is any claim I made here, I will gladly try to sort out what I meant.

As far as the Qur'an verses, it's a long while since I read the Qur'an in its entirety, and at least a couple of months since I last read parts of it.  So no, I don't know if those surahs are accurate.

Well in any case I do appreciate your answering my second to last question even though you hadn't claimed anything about it 

[haider]

Thanks for your input haidar 

Is it your understanding according to Islam that certain works are needed for a Muslim to reach heaven?

In addition, what do you think "keeping the faith" would entail?

Thanks!

Belief of the majority is that it is indeed work-based, i.e. bad deeds weighed against good deeds. However, it is also a common belief that the Muslim goes to heaven after having received his punishment in hell (if the bad deeds outweigh the good ones). I must also remind you that this is a very simplistic, and literal view ofcourse.

I would say that Islam is pretty work-based, yes... pretty evident in that a muslim is required to pray five times a day, fast a month out of the year, give charity, and perform hajj if physically and financially able. This is what defines a muslim (= keeping the faith), in addition to taking the testament of faith ofcourse (No God but God and Muhammed is his messneger).

[24KT]

Stella, I have heard it said that "Religion is spirituality in a cheap tuxedo."

What do you think?

I like that one! 

[24KT]

Good deal. So it wasn't you after all. It was whoever wrote that stuff.

It seems to me, however, that most people who want to regard themselves as "spiritual" rather than "religious" are doing so just so they can bend the rules: for example, so they can have sex and masturbate without the guilt... Being "spiritual" allows them to pick and choose, whereas being "religious" is a commitment.

Don't knock it til you tried it.