Author Topic: Chiropractors more harm than good?  (Read 44028 times)

Pet shop boys

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Chiropractors more harm than good?
« on: May 23, 2013, 07:16:53 AM »
My left shoulder its so bad that my whole left arm (muscles) are starting to suffer from it....  some say Chiropractor is the way,while others tell me to stay away from them cause if is a rotator cuff tear it can get worse with some dude pulling,twisting and pushing with a tool,fist etc  injured area.......


[ Invalid YouTube link ]

What do you think ?




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LurkerNoMore

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2013, 07:24:12 AM »
Find a licensed ART specialist in your area.  Best decision I ever made a couple years ago with a shoulder issue.

Raymondo

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2013, 07:26:45 AM »
I'm not going to say anything bad about chiropractors because Chiro Flex is a member of the Y and I don't want to hurt his feelings.























































































































































































































































Them lot are quacks man

Archer77

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2013, 07:28:34 AM »
Pseudoscience bullshit with roots in new age quackery. Some are better than others but most do not discuss the new age/occult origin of chiropractic "medicine".   Get a massage from a licensed massage therapist.  
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Raymondo

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2013, 07:30:06 AM »
Pseudoscience bullshit with roots in new age quackery. Some are better than others but most do not discuss the new age/occult origin of chiropractic "medicine".   Get a message from a licensed message therapist.  

A message? Like an email?

Where can I find a licensed email therapist, my yahoo acount is acting up lately.

Archer77

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2013, 07:30:41 AM »
A message? Like an email?

Where can I find a licensed email therapist, my yahoo acount is acting up lately.

Caught it before you replied
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Mr Nobody

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2013, 07:34:19 AM »
They seem ok on a rainy day.

Big Chiro Flex

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2013, 07:36:26 AM »
Wilk v. American Medical Association, 895 F.2d 352 (7th Cir. 1990), was a federal antitrust suit brought against the American Medical Association (AMA) and 10 co-defendants by chiropractor Chester A. Wilk, DC, and four co-plaintiffs. It resulted in a ruling against the AMA.
Contents  [hide] 
1 Case history
1.1 Pre-trial environment
1.2 The first trial
1.3 The second trial
1.4 Judge's findings in the second trial
2 Following the second trial
3 References
Case history [edit]

Pre-trial environment [edit]
Until 1983, the AMA held that it was unethical for medical doctors to associate with an "unscientific practitioner," and labeled chiropractic "an unscientific cult."[1]
Before 1980, Principle 3 of the AMA Principles of medical ethics stated: "A physician should practice a method of healing founded on a scientific basis; and he should not voluntarily professionally associate with anyone who violates this principle." In 1980 during a major revision of ethical rules (while the Wilk litigation was in progress), it replaced Principle 3, stating that a physician "shall be free to choose whom to serve, with whom to associate, and the environment in which to provide medical services." Also, up until 1974, the AMA had a Committee on quackery which challenged what it considered to be unscientific forms of healing. Wilk argued that this committee was established specifically to undermine chiropractic.
The first trial [edit]
In 1976, Chester Wilk and four other chiropractors sued the AMA, several nationwide healthcare associations, and several physicians for violations of sections 1 and 2 of the Sherman Antitrust Act. The plaintiffs lost at the first trial in 1981, then obtained a new trial on appeal in 1983 because of improper jury instructions and admission of irrelevant and prejudicial evidence (Wilk v. American Medical Ass'n,735 F.2d 217, 7th Cir. 1983).
The second trial [edit]
In the second trial case the AMA had the burden of proof, needing to establish the validity of the boycott. The court recognized a "patient care defense," but imposed a difficult burden. The defendants had to show their concern could not have been adequately satisfied in a manner less restrictive of competition. So Wilk and later cases greatly limit the use of "quality of care" defense in boycott cases.
Just before the second trial, the plaintiffs dropped their demand for damages and sought only an injunction. Therefore, the resulting trial in May and June 1987 was a bench trial in which Judge Susan Getzendanner personally heard the evidence and made factual findings.
Judge's findings in the second trial [edit]
On September 25, 1987, Getzendanner issued her opinion that the AMA had violated Section 1, but not 2, of the Sherman Act, and that it had engaged in an unlawful conspiracy in restraint of trade "to contain and eliminate the chiropractic profession." (Wilk v. American Medical Ass'n, 671 F. Supp. 1465, N.D. Ill. 1987). She further opined that the "AMA had entered into a long history of illegal behavior". And, she then issued a permanent injunction against the AMA under Section 16 of the Clayton Act to prevent such future behavior. However, she exonerated the two other remaining defendants, the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Hospitals and the American College of Physicians, and dismissed them from the case.
Judge Getzendanner also went out of her way to make clear what she was not doing:
The plaintiffs clearly want more from the court. They want a judicial pronouncement that chiropractic is a valid, efficacious, even scientific health care service. I believe that the answer to that question can only be provided by a well designed, controlled, scientific study... No such study has ever been done. In the absence of such a study, the court is left to decide the issue on the basis of largely anecdotal evidence. I decline to pronounce chiropractic valid or invalid on anecdotal evidence.

However Judge Getzendanner went on:
The plaintiffs, however, point out that the anecdotal evidence in the record favors chiropractors. The patients who testified were helped by chiropractors and not by medical physicians. Dr. Per Freitag, a medical physician who associates with chiropractors, has observed that patients in one hospital who receive chiropractic treatment are released sooner than patients in another hospital in which he is on staff which does not allow chiropractors. Dr. John McMillan Mennell, M.D. testified in favor of chiropractic. Even the defendants' economic witness, Mr. Lynk, assumed that chiropractors outperformed medical physicians in the treatment of certain conditions and he believed that was a reasonable assumption. The defendants have offered some evidence as to the unscientific nature of chiropractic. The study of how the five original named plaintiffs diagnosed and actually treated patients with common symptoms was particularly impressive. This study demonstrated that the plaintiffs do not use common methods in treating common symptoms and that the treatment of patients appears to be undertaken on an ad hoc rather than on a scientific basis. And there was evidence of the use of cranial adjustments to cure cerebral palsy and other equally alarming practices by some chiropractors. I do not minimize the negative evidence. But most of the defense witnesses, surprisingly, appeared to be testifying for the plaintiffs. Taking into account all of the evidence, I conclude only that the AMA has failed to meet its burden on the issue of whether its concern for the scientific method in support of the boycott of the entire chiropractic profession was objectively reasonable throughout the entire period of the boycott. This finding is not and should not be construed as a judicial endorsement of chiropractic. The next element of the patient care defense is whether the AMA's concern about scientific method has been the dominant motivating factor in the defendants' promulgation of Principle 3 in the conduct undertaken and intended to implement Principle 3. The AMA has carried its burden on this issue. While there is some evidence that the Committee on Quackery and the AMA were motivated by economic concerns – there are too many references in the record to chiropractors as competitors to ignore – I am persuaded that the dominant factor was patient care and the AMA's subjective belief that chiropractic was not in the best interests of patients.


She concluded that the AMA had been too restrictive in its campaign:
The final question is whether this concern for scientific method in patient care could have been adequately satisfied in a manner less restrictive of competition. It would be a difficult task to persuade a court that a boycott and conspiracy designed to contain and eliminate a profession that was licensed in all fifty states at the time the Committee on Quackery disbanded was the only way to satisfy the AMA's concern for the use of scientific method in patient care. The AMA presented no evidence that a public education approach or any other less restrictive approach was beyond the ability or resources of the AMA or had been tried and failed. The AMA obviously was not successful in defeating the licensing of chiropractic on a state by state basis, but that failure does not mean that they had to resort to the highly restrictive means of the boycott. The AMA and other medical societies have managed to change America's health-related conduct by what appears to be good public relations work and there has been no proof that a similar campaign would not have been at least as effective as the boycott in educating consumers about chiropractic and the AMA's concern for scientific method. Based on these findings, I conclude that the AMA has failed to carry its burden of persuasion on the patient care defense.[1]

Following the second trial [edit]

Both sides cross-appealed, and the district court's decision was affirmed by the U.S. Court of Appeals on February 7, 1990 (Wilk v. American Medical Ass'n,895 F.2d 352, 7th Cir. 1990). In their opinion, the Appellate Court wrote "The court found the AMA failed to establish that throughout the relevant period (1966-1980) their (the AMA's) concern for scientific methods in patient care had been objectively reasonable". The AMA petitioned the U.S. Supreme Court three times, but each time the Court denied certiorari (on June 11, August 13, and November 26, 1990).[2][3] The Court grants certiorari only when a case presents a novel question of law, and the Wilk case was a straightforward application of the Sherman Act.
The AMA eliminated Principle 3 in 1980 during a major revision of ethical rules (while the Wilk litigation was in progress). Its replacement stated that a physician "shall be free to choose whom to serve, with whom to associate, and the environment in which to provide medical services." Thus, the AMA now permits medical doctors to refer patients to doctors of chiropractic for such manipulative therapy if the medical doctor believes it is in the best interests of the patients. As noted by Judge Getzendanner, the AMA also took credit during the Wilk litigation for forcing chiropractors to put their own field on a sounder theoretical footing.
Following a decade of litigation, the Seventh Circuit Court upheld the ruling by U.S. District Court Judge Susan Getzendanner that the AMA had engaged in a "lengthy, systematic, successful and unlawful boycott" designed to restrict cooperation between MDs and chiropractors in order to eliminate the profession of chiropractic.[4]
References [edit]

^ a b The Wilk Case
^ George McAndrews Files In Supreme Court Against JCAH. Dynamic Chiropractic, May 9, 1990, Volume 08, Issue 10
^ DR. CHESTER A. WILK, D.C., DR. JAMES W. BRYDEN, D.C., DR. PATRICIA B. ARTHUR, D.C., AND DR. MICHAEL D. PEDIGO, D.C., PLAINTIFFS-APPELLEES, CROSS-APPELLANTS, v. AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, DEFENDANT-APPELLANT, CROSS-APPELLEE. DR. CHESTER A. WILK, D.C., DR. JAMES W. BRYDEN, D.C., DR. PATRICIA B. ARTHUR, D.C., AND DR. MICHAEL B. PEDIGO, D.C., PLAINTIFFS-CROSS-APPELLANTS, V. AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, JOINT COMMISSION ON ACCREDITATION OF HOSPITALS, AMERICAN COLLEGE OF PHYSICIANS AND AMERICAN ACADEMY OF ORTHOPAEDIC SURGEONS, DEFENDANTS-CROSS-APPELLEES, 895 F.2d 352 (7th Cir. 1990) LSU Law Center. We affirm the district court's finding that the AMA violated § 1 of the Sherman Act by conducting an illegal boycott of chiropractors, and the district court's decision to grant an injunction against the AMA., 1990.C07.41521 (UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE SEVENTH CIRCUIT February 7, 1990).
^ "Statement of the American Chiropractic Association on the AMA Scope of Practice Partnership". 1990. Retrieved 12/01/07
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Big Chiro Flex

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2013, 07:37:16 AM »

bigmc

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2013, 07:38:02 AM »
meltdown
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Archer77

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2013, 07:40:03 AM »
Chiro is a good dude.  I'll look in to chiropractic medicine a little more.  Strike my comments from the record.
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Big Chiro Flex

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2013, 07:41:46 AM »
Not gonna try to convince people to "believe" in anything, or engage in pointless arguments. As far as I'm concerned, the evidence for what my profession does is so convincing that I don't need a "faith" to see what we do. Dont forget mainstream medicine's origins included blood-letting, and drilling holes in people's skulls to relieve evil spirits. There is plenty of peer reviewed literature being published monthly that backs what we do.

PS: you're an asshole Raymondo but still one of my favorites here  :D

Raymondo

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2013, 07:44:16 AM »
Cheers mate, if I ever wanted someone to accidentally cause me permament spinal cord injury, I would want it to be you.

Slik

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2013, 07:45:09 AM »
Chiropractic done right is awesome. There r a lot of idiots. But I'm not sure that ratio is any higher or lower than idiot mds, idiot mechanics, idiot plumbers. As the saying goes....u know what they call a medical student that graduates the bottom of their class?  An MD.

Chiropractic however does involve coordination and talent on the part of the doctor in order to adjust the patient well.  Some are great..some not so good.

By the way, the premise of chiropractic is neither pseudoscience nor quackery.

It's roots are based upon the simple premise that nerves get impinged or inflamed and mobilizing the structures in that specific area can free the nerve or decrease the inflammation in that nerve or in the surrounding tissue. Nothing quacky about it.

There are spinoffs I will call them where many docs however have placed some crazy shit in their practices doing things hardly even related to chiropractic. My advice is if after the doc has thouroughly examined u and come up with a diagnosis,  the doc cannot explain to u in a reasonable amount of time what he or she can do for u, and a reasonable amount of time I mean in just a few minutes, and if that explanation doesn't sound like it makes common sense, (example...wants to put crystals on u, wants to hang u upside down from a meat hook, wants to heal u with music or wutever the fuck then respectfully decline then look for another)

But the basic form of chiropractic works great.

bigmc

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2013, 07:45:59 AM »
chiro is one of my favourite posters and knows about my experience with a chiropractor

the best i can say is there are probably good and bad ones

the one i went to tried to disable me for life
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LurkerNoMore

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2013, 07:50:31 AM »
Also, when I lived in Atlanta I got an adjustment by Dr Schmidt.  The Prez of Life University the noted chiro college in Marietta that is...   he gave me an adjustment that everyone who saw it said he was deliberately trying to hurt me.  The freaking Prez.  Two students and his own gay boyfriend took me aside afterwards and said that he should not have performed that and it looked as though he was trying to hurt me on purpose.  

I have only seen another a couple times after that and that was before I found the ART specialist.

OneMoreRep

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2013, 07:51:18 AM »
Not gonna try to convince people to "believe" in anything, or engage in pointless arguments. As far as I'm concerned, the evidence for what my profession does is so convincing that I don't need a "faith" to see what we do. Dont forget mainstream medicine's origins included blood-letting, and drilling holes in people's skulls to relieve evil spirits. There is plenty of peer reviewed literature being published monthly that backs what we do.

PS: you're an asshole Raymondo but still one of my favorites here  :D

Chiropractors have a place in healthcare. They provide a good service and should be respected as healthcare professionals.

That said, if you do have a ligament, muscle or tendon tear, you should probably go see an orthopedic surgeon for repair of that problem. Maybe Chiro can tell us whether there are other options via the use of chiropractors for these types of injuries. I am interested in knowing, as I probably have Labral tears on both shoulders from decades of wear and tear.

Chiropractors are doctors in their own discipline and should be respected as such.  There are more Doctors now in healthcare than there were ever before. So keep in mind, that as a consumer, you have way more options.

Besides chiropractors, these are some other doctors you might have not heard of:

DPT: Doctorate of Physical Therapy
DNP: Doctorate of Nursing Practice
DPA: Doctorate of Physician Assistant
PharmD: Doctor of Pharmacy
DN: Doctorate in Nutrition

These are all REAL doctors that have gone to school (Undergrad & Grad level) for well over 8 years and had their own residencies, in most instances, to attain the degree that they have, which can be applied to the realm of healthcare.

Watch out for both Nurse Practitioners and Physician Assistants with Doctorates. Those two groups WILL be the future of primary care medicine. Statistics are all pointing in that direction.

Also, don't be surprised if more people visit their local chiropractor for help with back aches and pains, versus waiting months on in to see an orthopedist.

"1"

El Diablo Blanco

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2013, 07:53:06 AM »
BIG ACH is going to be a doctor, doesn't mean I'd trust him with my spine

Chiropractors have a place in healthcare. They provide a good service and should be respected as healthcare professionals.

That said, if you do have a ligament, muscle or tendon tear, you should probably go see an orthopedic surgeon for repair of that problem. Maybe Chiro can tell us whether there are other options via the use of chiropractors for these types of injuries. I am interested in knowing, as I probably have Labral tears on both shoulders from decades of wear and tear.

Chiropractors are doctors in their own discipline and should be respected as such.  There are more Doctors now in healthcare than there were ever before. So keep in mind, that as a consumer, you have way more options.

Besides chiropractors, these are some other doctors you might have not heard of:

DPT: Doctorate of Physical Therapy
DNP: Doctorate of Nursing Practice
DPA: Doctorate of Physician Assistant
PharmD: Doctor of Pharmacy
DN: Doctorate in Nutrition

These are all REAL doctors that have gone to school (Undergrad & Grad level) for well over 8 years and had their own residencies, in most instances, to attain the degree that they have, which can be applied to the realm of healthcare.

Watch out for both Nurse Practitioners and Physician Assistants with Doctorates. Those two groups WILL be the future of primary care medicine. Statistics are all pointing in that direction.

Also, don't be surprised if more people visit their local chiropractor for help with back aches and pains, versus waiting months on in to see an orthopedist.

"1"

Slik

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2013, 07:55:39 AM »
chiro is one of my favourite posters and knows about my experience with a chiropractor

the best i can say is there are probably good and bad ones

the one i went to tried to disable me for life
exactly and I have seen a lot of this.
Here's something to think about.
Chiropractic is kind of like a a sport in the way that not only do u have to learn the motor skills of the sport...to be really good at it u also have to be in a sense...made for it...

In the same way that Michael Jordan was made for basketball but yet sucked completely at baseball.

He worked harder than everyone to learn his basketball skills but coupled with that it was his "being made to play basketball" which thrust him to greatness.

He prolly coulda trained forever n still been just a mediocre baseball player.

Chiropractic is a skill.

The Chiro must train and hone their skills and the best are also the ones that train hard coupled with just kind of having been made for it.

These ones ares hard to find but once u find a Chiro who can adjust really well u will not believe how truly effective it is.

Just like mediocre surgeons I'm sure their are chiropractors that go thru their whole career and are mediocre at best at what they do.


Archer77

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2013, 07:56:44 AM »
Chiropractors have a place in healthcare. They provide a good service and should be respected as healthcare professionals.

That said, if you do have a ligament, muscle or tendon tear, you should probably go see an orthopedic surgeon for repair of that problem. Maybe Chiro can tell us whether there are other options via the use of chiropractors for these types of injuries. I am interested in knowing, as I probably have Labral tears on both shoulders from decades of wear and tear.

Chiropractors are doctors in their own discipline and should be respected as such.  There are more Doctors now in healthcare than there were ever before, so keep in mind, that as a consumer, you have way more options.

Besides chiropractors, these are some other doctors you might have not heard of:

DPT: Doctorate of Physical Therapy
DNP: Doctorate of Nursing Practice
DPA: Doctorate of Physician Assistant
PharmD: Doctor of Pharmacy
DN: Doctorate in Nutrition

These are all REAL doctors that have gone to school (Undergrad & Grad level) for well over 8 years and had their own residencies, in most instances, to attain the degree that they have, which can be applied to the realm of healthcare.

Watch out for both Nurse Practitioners and Physician Assistants with Doctorates. Those two groups WILL be the future of primary care medicine. Statistics are all pointing in that direction.

Also, don't be surprised if more people visit their local chiropractor for help with back aches and pains, versus waiting months on in to see an orthopedist.

"1"

The big problem is that many of them are instructing their patients to forgo traditional medical treatment in favor of "natural" unproven treatments.    They are clearly operating outside the scope of their profession when recommending this.  
A

OneMoreRep

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2013, 07:56:54 AM »
BIG ACH is going to be a doctor, doesn't mean I'd trust him with my spine

Of course not...lol

Why would you trust a pHD in Engineering to treat you for a medical condition?

That's the same as trusting a Juris Doctor (A Lawyer, who by their training is also a DOCTOR) with your medical problems.

There are doctorates obtained in the medical sciences that are directly involved with your healthcare management and there are other Doctorates that have nothing to do with healthcare (Lawyer, PHD in Math, literature, biology, physics etc..).

'1"

Slik

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2013, 07:59:59 AM »
Also, when I lived in Atlanta I got an adjustment by Dr Schmidt.  The Prez of Life University the noted chiro college in Marietta that is...   he gave me an adjustment that everyone who saw it said he was deliberately trying to hurt me.  The freaking Prez.  Two students and his own gay boyfriend took me aside afterwards and said that he should not have performed that and it looked as though he was trying to hurt me on purpose.  

I have only seen another a couple times after that and that was before I found the ART specialist.
i wouldn't listen to what students told u.  I have never seen one single case of a chiropractor deliberately trying to hurt someone. I don't know of this guy u r taking about tho. We're u injured from the treatment?

viking1

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2013, 08:00:03 AM »
There are great DC's out there. The newer school ones are fantastic. Quite a few are a perfect marriage of many modalities: ART, Graston, Myo-Skeletal Alignment, Fascial Release/Postural Distortions,  Wellness and Dietary advice/coaching, etc.    

I've found that many of the old school DC's tend to be more minimalistic....  adjustment only.


I've worked with a dozen different DC's.. everyone was completely different.  


Slik

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2013, 08:02:01 AM »
The big problem is that many of them are instructing their patients to forgo traditional medical treatment in favor of "natural" unproven treatments.    They are clearly operating outside the scope of their profession when recommending this.  
archer can u be a lil more specific? What unproven methods. Foregoing md treatments for what conditions?

Archer77

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Re: Chiropractors more harm than good?
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2013, 08:05:04 AM »
archer can u be a lil more specific? What unproven methods. Foregoing md treatments for what conditions?

Vitamin regiments and herbal concoctions.  Forgoing cancer treat in favor of herbal remedies.  Many of them are ardent opponents of childhood vaccinations.  My sister in laws chiropractor has scared her off from vaccinating her kids with misinformation and outright wrong assertions.
A