Your Not Lifting Unless Your Lifting for GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bast175]

is this true?  I'm asking for Alexxx's sake.

[Mr. Intenseone]

is this true?  I'm asking for Alexxx's sake.

No.....he doesn't!

[THE ROCK]

Johnny Apollo....you seem very knowlegeable on this subject...what are your credentials? Are you educated?

[dontknowit]

What "Original texts"? There are no original copies of the old or new testament. Everything we have are copies of copies of copies of copies...Even the earliest manuscripts.

No one said "god's name"(The hebrew god had many various names including "Elohim") was unspeakable. However the hebrew bible said that you should not speak it in "vein" I.E. vein repetitions of prayer.

Do a search on dead sea scrolls and enlighten yourself. Cause this ain't true.

And whether God exist or not, that's your own choice. Nobody can make that for you.
But claiming that He ain't there cause nobody has seen him isn't an argument.

Nobody has ever seen gravity, yet it still exist. We can verify it, we have a nice formula, but yet we can't fully understand how it works.

The same with evolution,
we know a lot, yet it's questionable if you put it in the big picture, we have gathered a lot of attributes from the past, we have created a story around the attributes, and we claim the theory is better than the story from the bible.
The only thing is, the creation of earth and mankind only exist out of two chapters, and it is already known that the bible speaks in great deal in metaphors.

So what kind of discussion do you want to start? That god doesn't exist? That's a task for you, not for those who believe. The bible is very summary about creation, a believer cannot discuss with you about that.
On the other side, somebody who believes in evolution, and thinks thats the proof that god doesn't exist, is also wrong, he can't proof that there ain't live outside earth who interfered within the creation of earth, both side agree that there is a not above-average but almost 100% change that live exist outside our habitat.

And a theory is a theory until proven otherwise.

[Johnny Apollo]

Johnny, STFU. I've been there and done that. Like I said Bud, you claim to the apologetics expert so this info should be common knowledge since these questions are so frequently asked. I don't have time to be on here ALL DAY and debate, crap, I can "refute" you all day long and I guarantee if we were face to face I can bury so far deep with info you wouldn't know what hit you. Don't think just because someone doesn't answer you in a post you won the arguement............thi s is an arguement that cannot be won by anyone. I have studied both sides of this issue and the evidence is overwhelming on the Christian side. You "claim" you read the books by Lee Stroble and frankly I think (and yes I'm being judgemental) you're full of crap. With the eveidence and research he presented (and him being a former atheist just like you) you would have have to do the same kind of research he did to refute it took him years yet you seem to be able to do it in a GetBig thread. Get over it son, you have your beliefs and I have mine, we'll never come to an agreement because you don't have the mental capacity to carry on a thread without name calling if someone disagrees with you. Basically, you nor science has proven a thing. When science has to correct their mistakes that often it just means that means they can't get it right the first time and unlike God!!

No evidence as usual.

I find it fucking funny that you take the time to post such long drawn out posts and then claim you "have no time" to post evidence...

[bigdumbbell]

how many years after god died was the bible written?  why wasn't it written by god when he was alive?

[Johnny Apollo]

You're being specific and giving sources and that I admire but now i'll refute you.

Do a search on dead sea scrolls and enlighten yourself. Cause this ain't true.

I've read the dead sea scrolls(Gnostic gospels, ect) as i've mentined earlier. These are the "Earliest known copies" but are just that.."Copies".

And whether God exist or not, that's your own choice. Nobody can make that for you.
But claiming that He ain't there cause nobody has seen him isn't an argument.

Wether god exists is not a CHOICE. That doesn't make sense. Belief in god is a choice though.

Also note that I said that I never claimed the "Deist" god does not exist. However I did claim the God of Abraham..I.E. the jewish,muslim and christian God does not exist due to omnipotent paradox.

Nobody has ever seen gravity, yet it still exist. We can verify it, we have a nice formula, but yet we can't fully understand how it works.

We can't see gravity but we can MEASURE it. Can you mesure God?

The same with evolution,
we know a lot, yet it's questionable if you put it in the big picture, we have gathered a lot of attributes from the past, we have created a story around the attributes, and we claim the theory is better than the story from the bible.
The only thing is, the creation of earth and mankind only exist out of two chapters, and it is already known that the bible speaks in great deal in metaphors.

Evolution it self is not "questionable" it's a cold hard fact. The details of how it happens however are being discovered everyday in Evolutionary Biology.

And yes..Bible=Lots of metaphors.

So what kind of discussion do you want to start? That god doesn't exist? That's a task for you, not for those who believe. The bible is very summary about creation, a believer cannot discuss with you about that.

A believer in a God can't discuss the existance of a God?
 

On the other side, somebody who believes in evolution, and thinks thats the proof that god doesn't exist, is also wrong, he can't proof that there ain't live outside earth who interfered within the creation of earth, both side agree that there is a not above-average but almost 100% change that live exist outside our habitat.

And a theory is a theory until proven otherwise.

Someone who believes in evolution and not a God is NOT wrong. He doesn't have to prove there isn't life outside of earth that made life on earth..The ones who CLAIM that need to prove it. look up "Burden of proof".

Secondly in science a "theory" doesn't mean some guess. I've already mentioned this in past posts. A "Theory" is a conceptual framework built around facts that explain observations,Make predictions and confirmed by experiments.

Example..

Evolution-Life changing overtime into new species. All species related by common ancestors in the distant past.

Darwins Theory of Evolution-Explanation and measurment of exactly HOW and WHY this happens. Darwins theory makes observations,does experiments and makes predictions(All confirming his theory).

A theory is a theory until proven WRONG. A theory never becomes a "fact" in science..They are completly different. A theory is a theory until disproven and then is replaced by another theory that explains the new evidence that refuted the older theory.

In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it often does in other contexts. Scientific theories are never proven to be true, but can be disproven. All scientific understanding takes the form of hypotheses, or conjectures. A theory is in this context a set of hypotheses that are logically bound together, often having used the hypothetico-deductive method.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

[Johnny Apollo]

Johnny Apollo....you seem very knowlegeable on this subject...what are your credentials? Are you educated?

I just spend alot of time studying and researching topics i'm interested in.

[Johnny Apollo]

how many years after god died was the bible written?  why wasn't it written by god when he was alive?

"God" never died in the Bible. In the Old testament "God" was the mighty being up in the sky who went by many names..ect..ect

In the New testament it's a bit more confusing.

In the new testament there is the same old God as the Old testament but there is also the man named "Jesus" who went around preaching and what not.

Jesus himself NEVER claimed he was god. Jesus said he(As well as everyone else) are gods children and he refered to god as his "father" like many jews or christians do today. However he never stated he was God.

The authors of the new testament are unknown. The authors are usually claimed to be the apostles of jesus but this isn't possible since the first copies of the new testament appeared generations after jesus supposedly died and the lifespan back then was only about 40 years.

The authors of the new testament are the ones who claimed jesus was God..Not jesus himself. The first book written actually had fewer miracles and what not than the later books. The later books written including Luke actually have more and more miracles attributed to jesus the later they are written.

The whole idea of Jesus and the "Holy trinity"(father, son, holy ghost) was invented by the church at the council of Nicaea in the year 325 almost 300 years after jesus supposedly died!

Brief bible lesson. Any questions feel free to ask.

[Mr. Intenseone]

No evidence as usual.

I find it fucking funny that you take the time to post such long drawn out posts and then claim you "have no time" to post evidence...

That took about a minute to write at 11:38pm and it's 5:15am now.  Like I said, your the "expert" you figure it out!

[Johnny Apollo]

That took about a minute to write at 11:38pm and it's 5:15am now.  Like I said, your the "expert" you figure it out!

Here is the deal...Either provide a well thought argument or stop posting and making excuses. Obviously other people posting in this thread care to discuss this topic and if you can only make excuses then don't post in it anymore.

[Johnny Apollo]

I also want to add that the "Holy trinity" doctrine rings of paganism as does alot of judaism and christianity. The christians did not want to distance themselves from the pagans so they made a concept where there is only 1 God but there are actually 3 gods...
Just one..But actually three!
3 Gods so it's paganism! But just one god so it's monotheism! But wait..3 gods? paganism! No..Just one! Very confusing actually.

[bigdumbbell]

Here is the deal...Either provide a well thought argument or stop posting and making excuses. Obviously other people posting in this thread care to discuss this topic and if you can only make excuses then don't post in it anymore.

lets have a bumper sticker length message debate

[Mr. Intenseone]

You're being specific and giving sources and that I admire but now i'll refute you.

I've read the dead sea scrolls(Gnostic gospels, ect) as i've mentined earlier. These are the "Earliest known copies" but are just that.."Copies".

The Dead Sea Scrolls were found in the the late 1940's (if i remember correctly 47') and they were authenticated....they were not copies!!

[bigdumbbell]

The Dead Sea Scrolls were found in the the late 1940's (if i remember correctly 47') and they were authenticated....they were not copies!!

please provide the provenance(authenticity) link for the dead sea scrolls.  who confirmed it, pat robertson, benny hinn or jerry falwell? 

[Mr. Intenseone]

please provide the provenance(authenticity) link for the dead sea scrolls.  who confirmed it, pat robertson, benny hinn or jerry falwell? 

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/world.scrolls.html

[Johnny Apollo]

The Dead Sea Scrolls were found in the the late 1940's (if i remember correctly 47') and they were authenticated....they were not copies!!

I know this. I'm saying they are ANCIENT COPIES. I.E. not directly from the original authors. Do you actually think the dead sea scrolls are the first time the 10 commandments appeared in history?
The carbon dating of them yields the earliest age of the oldest manuscript from 21 BC–AD 61.  The religion of judaism is hundreds of years older than this.

[bigdumbbell]

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/world.scrolls.html

um thanks for the 3rd grade fairy tale but we're wtill waiting for scholarly evidence and validation. 

[Johnny Apollo]

please provide the provenance(authenticity) link for the dead sea scrolls.  who confirmed it, pat robertson, benny hinn or jerry falwell? 

The dead sea scrolls are real but they don't prove anything. They are just much older copies of the same hebrew bible(Although no where near as old as would need be to be originals). Just old copies from the 2nd century bc-1st century ad. Things like the book of enoch, Book of esther,10 commandments,Nehemiah,Jubilees, ect..Consisting of around 820 texts which were found in caves near the dead sea.

[Johnny Apollo]

um thanks for the 3rd grade fairy tale but we're wtill waiting for scholarly evidence and validation. 

No...That link is correct for the most part.

Here is a better one though..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrolls

[bigdumbbell]

No...That link is correct for the most part.

Here is a better one though..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrolls

thanks, this is less bumper sticker mentality

however, your link even questions the 1947 discoveries significance

[Johnny Apollo]

thanks, this is less bumper stick mentality

The one Mr.Inten posted was from the library of congress though so it isn't bias or anything like that, However the wikipedia article is much much more detailed.




BTW still waiting for some evidence the bible is factual or evidence a God exists.(In your own words also people..No coping pasting long articles from websites!)

[BroadStreetBruiser]

guy. let this thread die. YOU RUINED THE WHOLE JOKE OF IT!

[bigdumbbell]

guy. let this thread die. YOU RUINED THE WHOLE JOKE OF IT!

nah

[Johnny Apollo]

guy. let this thread die. YOU RUINED THE WHOLE JOKE OF IT!

This is a good opportunity to discuss religion.