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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Hugo Chavez on December 14, 2006, 12:03:52 PM
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Is it ok to call for a cease fire and wait until people come out of their homes to shop then gun them all down? Women and Children too...
Is it fair to tell people to come out of their home, they have to leave then when they come out unarmed to leave the town, gun them down?
Is it fair to shoot an ambulance and when the driver stops, the Ambulance searched and nothing found, shoot the ambulance driver anyway... The only man that was trying to take the wounded to the hospital?
Does anything go in War? If anything goes in war, how do you feel about suicide bombers and IEDs... where is the thin red line in all this ???
I ask these questions after watching a documentary today "a letter to the prime minister" This documentary is on FSTV again later today. It was pretty well done. You'll see images from the only media source that stayed in Falluja.
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Depends on which side you're on. We have rules of engagement (e.g., you don't kill noncombatants who pose no threat). Terrorists do not.
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All that's good in theory. But when the shooting starts everything changes
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All that's good in theory. But when the shooting starts everything changes
Not everything. I'm sure some solidiers bend the rules, and there are gray areas, but JAG is all over commanders re the rules of engagement.
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Not everything. I'm sure some soldiers bend the rules, and there are gray areas, but JAG is all over commanders re the rules of engagement.
My point stems from what happened in WW2. Civilian targets. Germany started hitting civilian targets and then soon after we all did.
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No plan ever survives first contact with the enemy.
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Depends on which side you're on. We have rules of engagement (e.g., you don't kill noncombatants who pose no threat). Terrorists do not.
Are you sure about that?
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Are you sure about that?
Yes.
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Are you sure about that?
This is very true. Not that it's always followed by the troops in the fight. But the senior commanders do.
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We have prosecuted soldiers who violated the rules of engagement in pretty much every major conflict. That's one of the differences between "us" and "them."
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My point stems from what happened in WW2. Civilian targets. Germany started hitting civilian targets and then soon after we all did.
yea, excellent point... Beach you should watch Fog of War See some of the stuff McNamara admits we intentionally did to civilian populations and you wouldn't be saying this with confidence.
fog of war
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12990.htm
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I'm not arguing that we don't have the rules of engagement ::)
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Another thing we need to remember:
We are not Saints!
And "History" is written by thte victors
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Depends on which side you're on. We have rules of engagement (e.g., you don't kill noncombatants who pose no threat). Terrorists do not.
ON the history channel, I saw a nice piece about our soldiers fighing in Ramana province in iraq.
They flushed everyone out of town, chasing insurgents. Then, when this huge crowd was fleeing the burning town, they were machinegunned from the chopper. Thanks to the chpper cam, you just saw this crowd get shredded. You could see little kids in there with their moms. Just all part of the crowd fleeing.
And our forces "received some good intel on more insurgent activity in the next town" and didn't even bother to examine, count, check out the pile of bodies they had just created. The men on the ground went to the next town to do it again.
Now, I'm not sure a mama carrying a baby, fleeing a burning town is a combatant. You can rationalize "well, well, maybe just maybe she... " but until you ask her, you don't know. Filling her with bullets isn't cool, is it?
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So are these tactics, right or wrong. If these accusations are true of what happened in Faluja, it was a coordinated effort, not one soldiers fog of war. I'm not asking these questions to side against our troops, I'm asking them in an attempt to have a view of the situation from the greatest perspective which I know it's not possible to see with a complete understanding, but looking at these things and asking these questions is a step in that direction. If we do this stuff and Iraqis know we do this stuff, should they give two shits about using unethical tactics? I'm not claiming to have any right answers in anything said in this thread, I'm just asking questions that pop into my head trying to soak in what I am able to see as a limited outside observer.
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ON the history channel, I saw a nice piece about our soldiers fighing in Ramana province in iraq.
They flushed everyone out of town, chasing insurgents. Then, when this huge crowd was fleeing the burning town, they were machinegunned from the chopper. Thanks to the chpper cam, you just saw this crowd get shredded. You could see little kids in there with their moms. Just all part of the crowd fleeing.
And our forces "received some good intel on more insurgent activity in the next town" and didn't even bother to examine, count, check out the pile of bodies they had just created. The men on the ground went to the next town to do it again.
Now, I'm not sure a mama carrying a baby, fleeing a burning town is a combatant. You can rationalize "well, well, maybe just maybe she... " but until you ask her, you don't know. Filling her with bullets isn't cool, is it?
If an occupying force was doing this in America against us... Would I join an insurgency and do everything and anything no matter how unethical to kill the people doing this to Americans, yes in a heartbeat... Perspective... How much have we fueled an insurgency with this shit? How many of our troops have been killed because Iraqis ran to join the insurgency after having their fathers or mothers or children gunned down? What a fucking mess... Remember this shit people the next time some wackjob of a president tells you we're going to liberate someone with war... ::) Man... If some occupying force killed my mother,... Oh fuck it, I'm getting medieval... Perspective prespective...
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Yeah, what if we did this in 50 towns?
Chased everyone out thru those string mines and gunfire, onto the main road, then machine gun them all (men, women and children with no attempt at engagement), then get a call about new intel and leave before even looking at the bodies?
It would mean less recorded dead iraqis. it would sure breed some resentment too. And it would be hella illegal and immoral. And if you're a real American, you wouldn't stand for that shit. You would see that as genocide/mass murder, which is how it is defined in the Geneva which our nation signed. So it'd be a crime too.
But hell, you're a hate-filled 22 year old with a big gun and trained hatred. You have the rest of your life to think about the dead women and children whose downfall you enjoyed so much.
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Yeah, what if we did this in 50 towns?
Chased everyone out thru those string mines and gunfire, onto the main road, then machine gun them all (men, women and children with no attempt at engagement), then get a call about new intel and leave before even looking at the bodies?
It would mean less recorded dead iraqis. it would sure breed some resentment too. And it would be hella illegal and immoral. And if you're a real American, you wouldn't stand for that shit. You would see that as genocide/mass murder, which is how it is defined in the Geneva which our nation signed. So it'd be a crime too.
But hell, you're a hate-filled 22 year old with a big gun and trained hatred. You have the rest of your life to think about the dead women and children whose downfall you enjoyed so much.
Right now I'm watching documentation of civilian areas, markets getting cluster bombed ::) This looks like a planned genocide to me... From Gulf War one, all the people who suffered from the sanctions, and now, shock and awe and an even worse aftermath... These people are in someone's way...
The Iraq War is Criminal as all hell. George Bush is Hitler reincarnated. This stuff I'm seeing is pure fucked up. Bring out troops home to defend America, not participate in Genocide. And George Bush and Tony Blair should be tried for international war crimes and dealt with accordingly. This is so easy for us living in our American Bubble... We can go out an play golf and never have to deal with this, tune into our favorite tv show, ignore it all... This is sick what I'm watching, sick...
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you have a link? I think that many here who happily shout "kill all the babies!" wouldn't say that if they saw the horrors of it.
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No we aren't saints. We have service members who break the law. I'm sure we also run some illegal military operations. But overall, and as a matter of policy, we do the right thing. Citing exceptions (e.g., soldiers who commit war crimes) doesn't prove much. I think it's more telling that we punish war criminals.
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you have a link? I think that many here who happily shout "kill all the babies!" wouldn't say that if they saw the horrors of it.
No, I looked for it on the net and couldn't find it, it was on FSTV today.
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No we aren't saints. We have service members who break the law. I'm sure we also run some illegal military operations. But overall, and as a matter of policy, we do the right thing. Citing exceptions (e.g., soldiers who commit war crimes) doesn't prove much. I think it's more telling that we punish war criminals.
"Overall" ???
Can you quantify that? One masacre per every twenty days per soldier? One massacre per 100 days?
Shit, if you give the moral permission to one, you give the moral permission to ten thousand abuses.
The law doesn't make exceptions for pissed off generals having bad days hwo just machine gun a mob rather than sort them out. Neither should you.
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"Overall" ???
Can you quantify that? One masacre per every twenty days per soldier? One massacre per 100 days?
Shit, if you give the moral permission to one, you give the moral permission to ten thousand abuses.
The law doesn't make exceptions for pissed off generals having bad days hwo just machine gun a mob rather than sort them out. Neither should you.
Read the paper. Watch the news. You'll see examples of soldiers who have broken the law and are being punished. There are soldiers in prison for taking pictures of naked terrorists.
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Read the paper. Watch the news. You'll see examples of soldiers who have broken the law and are being punished. There are soldiers in prison for taking pictures of naked terrorists.
Oh, okay. The paper and news. Of course.
hey, how come this massacre I saw on the History channel wasn't on "the paper and news"?
Geez, there is one born every minute.
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Oh, okay. The paper and news. Of course.
hey, how come this massacre I saw on the History channel wasn't on "the paper and news"?
Geez, there is one born every minute.
You got me. I'm the one who believes we faked the moon landing. No . . . wait . . . That's YOU. ;D *Twilight Zone theme playing*
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BB,
I am grinning thinking about the day you wake up. The annoyance and frustration I feel, looking at the state of things and immanent trouble, are soothed only by the fact that some clown in hawaii is going to have that nervous facial twitch, scratching his head, wondering what has happened as the second 911 investigation is on TV and his retirement package is in the crapper.
I can't let your smug ignorance get to me. history has shown that the masses are stupid and will believe what they are told despite evidence to the contrary. They are also unable to comprehend financial trends which contradict their own financial planning. I sure as hell hope you're right about that angle... shit, i'll retire a very rich man. but I'm prepping for a major dollar decline, and i'm hoping for a second 911 investigation.
If I am wrong, then hell, I'm wrong. But major nations are dropping the dollar, and 911 skeptics are growing rapidly. trends aren't in your favor, my friend.
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BB,
I am grinning thinking about the day you wake up. The annoyance and frustration I feel, looking at the state of things and immanent trouble, are soothed only by the fact that some clown in hawaii is going to have that nervous facial twitch, scratching his head, wondering what has happened as the second 911 investigation is on TV and his retirement package is in the crapper.
I can't let your smug ignorance get to me. history has shown that the masses are stupid and will believe what they are told despite evidence to the contrary. They are also unable to comprehend financial trends which contradict their own financial planning. I sure as hell hope you're right about that angle... shit, i'll retire a very rich man. but I'm prepping for a major dollar decline, and i'm hoping for a second 911 investigation.
If I am wrong, then hell, I'm wrong. But major nations are dropping the dollar, and 911 skeptics are growing rapidly. trends aren't in your favor, my friend.
Cruise missile. lol. ;D 240 the economist! LOL. O.K. Now you're really interfering with my work. Peace out! lol.
But thanks for the funnies! ;D lol. whoo. . . . .
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Well if this is true about faluja, again, we're not talking about one soldier's fog of war, it would have had to be planned... Are these tactics fair in War? IF one battle, why not every major battle? If every major battle, is it right to call cease fire and mow down the people? Is it fair to use white phosphorous on civilians? Is it fair to demand civilians leave a dwelling and then gun them down. Kill ambulance drivers... Is it fair to gun down 15 unarmed protesters? yes or no... Again, I'm just wonder how much we justify and fuel the insurgency with this stuff... Do you think they give a shit we have rules of engagement if it doesn't look like we follow them?... The whole country is filled with horror stories now. Again, if it was here, if I heard that my countrymen were being torcured, were being killed and all this shit going on, I would fight against my American brothers being killed. Well if we fuel the insugency with all this garbage, that's fucked because our guys are dying. This is a mess.
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I think Reconaissance by fire would work great. ;D Feel free to discuss.
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please see my last 2 posts on '240 what you got' about finances. you owe it to yourself to be prepared, even if we don't see eye to eye on topics like war or 911.
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please see my last 2 posts on '240 what you got' about finances. you owe it to yourself to be prepared, even if we don't see eye to eye on topics like war or 911.
who?
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I think Reconaissance by fire would work great. ;D Feel free to discuss.
What you mean just burn it all down or what? You have no problem doing this to little kids?
(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0Je5mzQ64FFZIcA8j.jzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=13gbd14a4/EXP=1166228816/**http%3a//content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/0/00/350px-Iraqi_girl_smiles.jpg)
(http://debbyestratigacos.mu.nu/archives/GI%20and%20dying%20Iraqi%20girl%200_22_450_baby.jpg)
(http://www.imagedonkey.com/out.php?i=18195_iraqikids.jpg)
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This photo Kills me....
This is how HISTORY will remember GWBUSH and Tony Blair.
(http://debbyestratigacos.mu.nu/archives/GI%20and%20dying%20Iraqi%20girl%200_22_450_baby.jpg)
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What you mean just burn it all down or what? You have no problem doing this to little kids?
(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0Je5mzQ64FFZIcA8j.jzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=13gbd14a4/EXP=1166228816/**http%3a//content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/0/00/350px-Iraqi_girl_smiles.jpg)
(http://debbyestratigacos.mu.nu/archives/GI%20and%20dying%20Iraqi%20girl%200_22_450_baby.jpg)
(http://www.imagedonkey.com/out.php?i=18195_iraqikids.jpg)
Reconaissance by fire means shooting as soon as you see the enemy in all cases. Suppressed weapons and well placed shots. No actual fire. That would take out the element of reconnaissance.
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That doesn't seem to be quite what it means,
Reconnaissance in force (RIF) is a type of military operation used specifically to probe an enemy's disposition. By mounting an offensive with considerable (but not decisive) force, the commander hopes to elicit a strong reaction by the enemy that reveals its own strength, deployment, and other tactical data. The RIF commander retains the option to fall back with the data or expand the conflict into a full engagement.
Reconnaissance by fire (or speculative fire, 'spec fire') is a tactic which applies a similar principle. When not trying to be stealthy, reconnaissance units may fire on likely enemy positions to provoke a reaction.
How does this apply to this thread, expand ??? I guess you lost me a bit :-\
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How I am using it is that if my unit came up on an enemy force that has not seen us, we would annihilate them, preferably with silenced weapons without anybody knowing about it. It applies to this thread in the sense that some would see that as cruel.
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How I am using it is that if my unit came up on an enemy force that has not seen us, we would annihilate them, preferably with silenced weapons without anybody knowing about it. It applies to this thread in the sense that some would see that as cruel.
What you said just now I don't see as cruel in war. You're talking about taking out an enemy target with stealth... so... What we're talking about is completely different. I don't expect our guys to fight like 16th century British redcoats. ;D
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What you said just now I don't see as cruel in war. You're talking about taking out an enemy target with stealth... so... What we're talking about is completely different. I don't expect our guys to fight like 16th century British redcoats. ;D
Lol. It works even better than going door to door or doing dynamics entries and fire fights.
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Lol. It works even better than going door to door or doing dynamics entries and fire fights.
Well so you're still losing me a bit, you're saying just take the whole place out with stealth rather than door to door urban combat? That's what your're saying right :-\
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Well so you're still losing me a bit, you're saying just take the whole place out with stealth rather than door to door urban combat? That's what your're saying right :-\
If you want to save lives, send in quiet professionals under cover of darkness and just take them out. Or if you have to act during the day, do what they did in Somalia, have snipers set up to just pick people off whether shooting or not. I think recon by fire works best but not every mission allows for it.
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If you want to save lives, send in quiet professionals under cover of darkness and just take them out. Or if you have to act during the day, do what they did in Somalia, have snipers set up to just pick people off whether shooting or not. I think recon by fire works best but not every mission allows for it.
Yea, I agree, sounds good, but it also sounds like something that isn't going to work very well in an urban setting.
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Yea, I agree, sounds good, but it also sounds like something that isn't going to work very well in an urban setting.
Sniping would need multiple locations. Delta could pull off killing people without being noticed but I agree there are some better strategies for urban combat, too bad the Marines suck at it.
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Sniping would need multiple locations. Delta could pull off killing people without being noticed but I agree there are some better strategies for urban combat, too bad the Marines suck at it.
That's not cool... They do a lot with a little and they're Americans fighting for their Country all the same.
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All's fair in love and war.
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That's not cool... They do a lot with a little and they're Americans fighting for their Country all the same.
It isn't cool. I don't think that is their job. Marines pride themselves on being able to shoot out to 800 yds. I'm not saying the Marines suck and need to go home. They are not trained well for urban combat. Rangers are better at attacking a target and killing everything inside. Marines need to be sent home and retrained.
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Hope that clarifies my feelings Beserker. I repsect all soldiers but many forces are being misused and Marines are at the top of the list.
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All's fair in love and war.
You support suicide bombers and IEDs :-\
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You support suicide bombers and IEDs :-\
I support bombing those assholes to the stoneage.
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I support bombing those assholes to the stoneage.
Well I was asking fury, but you lost me again, you want our guys to do suicider bombings and make IEDs :-\ Fury said, all is fair in love and war... If all is fair, he supports these things... I'm just going for clarification of his statements.
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Well I was asking fury, but you lost me again, you want our guys to do suicider bombings and make IEDs :-\ Fury said, all is fair in love and war... If all is fair, he supports these things... I'm just going for clarification of his statements.
I like the use of fighter jets and Specter gun ships. It is safer for us.
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I like the use of fighter jets and Specter gun ships. It is safer for us.
This is going to get to nuking the place soon, I can tell ;D
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This is going to get to nuking the place soon, I can tell ;D
Lol. No, ideally I would let the Middle East implode and then we go in and rebuild ;D they're all a bunch of crazy shit heads anyway but we have interests over there so it will never happen
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I hate these threads..there i way to much good stuff to debate that I won't be able to hit it all. After Falujha the cowards decided to never ever again fight us in a straight up fight. The first time we went in the Insurgents took a hospital and then said we had been killing people, innocent's etc. It was all BS but we could not disprove it. So when we went in again the MEF CDR made the hospital an early objective. He then did interviews from there. No innocent or dead bodies because there were none. The insurgents love to pull dead bodies out of wreckage, riddle them and then take them to hospitals or mosques. I watched an IRAQI RPG team fire rockets at a convoy from the back of a Red Cressent vehicle. Civil Affairs guys found the bodies of the drivers a few days later. A buddy of mine had one of his crews smoke the truck. They don'T play fair and once the fur flies all bets are off. These people suck. Marines are good for one thing..breaking shit..its what they do and are really good at it ;D
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I hate these threads..there i way to much good stuff to debate that I won't be able to hit it all. After Falujha the cowards decided to never ever again fight us in a straight up fight. The first time we went in the Insurgents took a hospital and then said we had been killing people, innocent's etc. It was all BS but we could not disprove it. So when we went in again the MEF CDR made the hospital an early objective. He then did interviews from there. No innocent or dead bodies because there were none. The insurgents love to pull dead bodies out of wreckage, riddle them and then take them to hospitals or mosques. I watched an IRAQI RPG team fire rockets at a convoy from the back of a Red Cressent vehicle. Civil Affairs guys found the bodies of the drivers a few days later. A buddy of mine had one of his crews smoke the truck. They don'T play fair and once the fur flies all bets are off. These people suck. Marines are good for one thing..breaking shit..its what they do and are really good at it ;D
Don't be hatin ;D I was actually hoping to get your imput into this thread ;)