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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Dos Equis on January 15, 2007, 02:24:20 PM
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Interesting issue. I know more than one Southern state adopted the Confederate flag to protest the end of legalized segregation, but not sure about South Carolina?
Biden calls for removal of Confederate flag
POSTED: 1:16 p.m. EST, January 15, 2007
COLUMBIA, South Carolina (AP) -- Sen. Joseph Biden, a Democratic presidential hopeful joining fellow Sen. Christopher Dodd at Martin Luther King Jr. holiday events, said Monday he thinks the Confederate flag should be kept off South Carolina's Statehouse grounds.
"If I were a state legislator, I'd vote for it to move off the grounds -- out of the state," the Delaware senator said before the civil rights group held a march and rally at the Statehouse here to support its boycott of the state.
In Chicago, Sen. Barack Obama, also prominently mentioned in speculation about the White House sweepstakes in 2008, was a hit at a Rainbow/PUSH Coalition breakfast honoring King, even if he didn't deliver what much of the crowd clearly wanted: a declaration that he will run for president.
Obama received a standing ovation at the annual King scholarship breakfast when the Rev. Jesse Jackson introduced him with an approving reference to the Illinois Democrat's presidential aspirations.
"It's a long, nonstop line between the march in Selma in 1965 and the inauguration in Washington in 2009," said Jackson, the coalition's founder and a one-time presidential candidate himself.
Later, in an address at a King remembrance service at St. Mark's Church in suburban Harvey, Obama said: "I'm not making news today. I'm not here to make news. There will be a time for that."
More than six years after the Confederate flag was taken down from the South Carolina Capitol dome, its location in front of the Statehouse remains an issue at the heart of events celebrating Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s legacy.
Jim Hanks stood across from the Statehouse with about 35 Confederate flag supporters.
"We love this flag. We love our heritage," said Hanks, of Lexington.
Some carried signs saying: "South Carolina does not want Chris Dodd," referring to the Connecticut senator who, along with Biden, attended the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People rally at the Statehouse.
Hanks said that Dodd, Biden and other Democrats running for president "would probably say most anything if it would get them votes."
In 2000, as the NAACP began its South Carolina tourism boycott, the flag was flying on the Capitol dome and in House and Senate chambers. Legislators agreed to take the flag down that year, but raised the banner outside the Statehouse beside a Confederate soldiers monument.
In November, Biden joked about South Carolina's Confederate past at a Rotary Club meeting in Columbia after organizers said their Christmas party at the Department of Archives and History would include a chance to see the state's original copy of the Articles of Secession.
Biden noted Delaware was "a slave state that fought beside the North. That's only because we couldn't figure out how to get to the South -- there were a couple of other states in the way."
Biden expects legislators here will eventually move the flag. Pointing to his heart, he said, "as people become more and more aware of what it means to African-Americans here, this is only a matter of time."
On Sunday, Dodd told The Associated Press at a King remembrance service in Greenville that the Confederate flag belongs in a museum.
"I don't think it belongs on the Capitol grounds," Dodd said.
Obama: I 'stand on the shoulders of others'
Obama said thinking of the slain civil rights leader's life was humbling, and added: "I've gotten a little attention lately, but the fact of the matter is all I do is stand on the shoulders of others."
He noted that King was six years younger than he is now when he was assassinated in 1968 at age 39.
"Whatever challenges we face are nothing like the challenges our parents and grandparents faced," Obama said. "The torch has been passed to this generation, but we haven't always taken it up. ... We have much more work to do."
The crowd enthusiastically applauded and cheered his remarks.
The first-term senator has gained national attention since 2005 when he was sworn into office. He recently has made appearances in key primary states and according to several Democrats, he also has hired policy, research and press staff for a campaign to be run from Chicago.
On CBS' "Face the Nation" Sunday, Obama said he'll announce a decision about whether to launch a presidential bid "fairly soon."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/15/democrats.king.ap/index.html
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trying to get the votes. isn't there more important issues for a politician attack?
as far as SC, the NAACP is boycotting the state, has been for a few years now over the Flag. they don't want any tourism dollars coming in to the state. i don't believe it's any real threat. i think the best they've succeeded in is stopping some basketball tournament from going there.
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biden could care less, or he would have done this 20 years ago.
trying to win the black vote from obama in primaries where both race and experience matter.
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Oh brother ::) everytime this "holiday" rolls around we see this issue come up to pocket some votes...it's getting old.
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Oh brother ::) everytime this "holiday" rolls around we see this issue come up to pocket some votes...it's getting old.
agreed
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It may not be a priority, but it's a legitimate issue IMO. Definitely something wrong with a state erecting a symbol solely to protest the end of segregation and making that symbol part of their state sanctioned property. Not sure if South Carolina falls under that category, but I think so?
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It may not be a priority, but it's a legitimate issue IMO. Definitely something wrong with a state erecting a symbol solely to protest the end of segregation and making that symbol part of their state sanctioned property. Not sure if South Carolina falls under that category, but I think so?
there oughta be a rule against staying mum on it all year then launching it on MLK day for some tv coverage.
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It's a disgrace that these states still keep the confederate symbol in their State flag.
Nothing short of a disgrace.
It's not a Democrat-Republican issue either.
Legislators needs to wake the fcuk up and show some spine.
-Hedge
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there oughta be a rule against staying mum on it all year then launching it on MLK day for some tv coverage.
The year is two weeks old. Nevertheless, I'm not going to assume that Biden, Obama, the NAACP, Rainbow/PUSH and/or whomever else participated in this event haven't talked about this for the past twelve months simply because the national media didn't report it. I don't trust the media.
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It's a disgrace that these states still keep the confederate symbol in their State flag.
Nothing short of a disgrace.
It's not a Democrat-Republican issue either.
Legislators needs to wake the fcuk up and show some spine.
-Hedge
I completely agree if we're talking about states who adopted them to protest the end of segregation.
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:D
(http://www.lowcountrynow.com/images/040700/full_flagsmile.jpg)
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:D
(http://www.lowcountrynow.com/images/040700/full_flagsmile.jpg)
What the fack? ???
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there oughta be a rule against staying mum on it all year then launching it on MLK day for some tv coverage.
I'm normally extremely sceptical towards celebrities making political statements, but...
Morgan Freeman, an actor, also a political activist, has two issues he pushes, YEAR ROUND:
1. Get rid of the confederate flag in state flags
2. Get rid of the Black History Month
I agree with him 100% on both these issues.
-Hedge
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The year is two weeks old. Nevertheless, I'm not going to assume that Biden, Obama, the NAACP, Rainbow/PUSH and/or whomever else participated in this event haven't talked about this for the past twelve months simply because the national media didn't report it. I don't trust the media.
so it's just a coincidence biden chose MLK day?
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so it's just a coincidence biden chose MLK day?
I think it's a very good PR strategy.
Martin Luther King Jr was one of the greatest equal rights activists, so to launch it on the day that celebrates him, is a very good strategy.
Why? Because the media is craving issues that could be associated to Martin Luther King Jr's own issues.
-Hedge
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i read how arizona voted against making MLK day a holiday, but then the federal government threatened to withhold money and the NFL said they would not let a superbowl play in that state as was scheduled
what a democracy
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i read how arizona voted against making MLK day a holiday, but then the federal government threatened to withhold money and the NFL said they would not let a superbowl play in that state as was scheduled
what a democracy
Yeah, that's democracy at its finest.
Other interest groups like NFL, who believed that the Martin Luther King Jr Day is important, did what they could to put pressure on AZ, likewise did the federal goverment.
That's democracy. You don't always get your wishes, but you get the wishes of the majority most of the time.
-Hedge
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It's a disgrace that these states still keep the confederate symbol in their State flag.
Nothing short of a disgrace.
It's not a Democrat-Republican issue either.
Legislators needs to wake the fcuk up and show some spine.
-Hedge
No state has the confederate flag as their symbol... Georgia did but they changed it about 6 years ago. Mississippi has a part of the flag that is similar. It's also important to remember that the confederate flag does not entirely represent slavery. It's also a symbol of rebelling against central government. It's a states rights symbol. Yes clowns will use it as a hate symbol, just as the swastika is used which we all know is a perversion of a good symbol representing the sun, luck and other benign good things... In my opinion you don't fight hate by banning symbols, use the good in the symbol and adopt it for your own. There is serious history that should not be forgotten. Blacks embracing this symbol will de-power racism. The symbol is empowered by opposing force. It will work like this every single time. Biden is a pandering butthead flaming up shit for his own benefit.
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:D
(http://www.lowcountrynow.com/images/040700/full_flagsmile.jpg)
That's what I'm talking about... Smart man...
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I am from Asheville NC there is a black guy around here that walked across the country with the confederate flag. I dont remember his name he is around here all the time has a radio show and everything. A friend of mine is in the Sons of Confederate Vetrans and this black guy is in the same chapter as him. pretty cool guy
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so it's just a coincidence biden chose MLK day?
Probably not, but you said they didn't talk about it for a year. That's the point I was addressing, not whether they tried to maximize coverage by talking about it on MLK day.
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Probably not, but you said they didn't talk about it for a year. That's the point I was addressing, not whether they tried to maximize coverage by talking about it on MLK day.
LOL "Probably not"
So you're allowing for the possibility that Biden just came to work on a Monday when everyone else had the day off, submitted this suggestion to a crowd of civil rights marchers who happened to be there?
You're saying there's a chaaaaaaaaaance?
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No state has the confederate flag as their symbol... Georgia did but they changed it about 6 years ago. Mississippi has a part of the flag that is similar. It's also important to remember that the confederate flag does not entirely represent slavery. It's also a symbol of rebelling against central government. It's a states rights symbol. Yes clowns will use it as a hate symbol, just as the swastika is used which we all know is a perversion of a good symbol representing the sun, luck and other benign good things... In my opinion you don't fight hate by banning symbols, use the good in the symbol and adopt it for your own. There is serious history that should not be forgotten. Blacks embracing this symbol will de-power racism. The symbol is empowered by opposing force. It will work like this every single time. Biden is a pandering butthead flaming up shit for his own benefit.
Couldn't agree with you more. The Confederate flag (all its incarnations), at its root, is a symbol of the CSA cause. Most people think that cause was slavery, but it states rights. Slavery was a peripheral issue, and only made an issue because of the U.S. government's insistance that the federal powers trumped state powers. Slavery was just a way for one side to demonize another. How else could lifelong friends kill each other, kill fellow countrymen? The sad truth is that the Confederate flag will always be viewed with disdain by the masses because to them the Confederate flag will ALWAYS be synonymous with slavery -- and a good chunk of the folks that LIKE the Confederate flag are racists. People are idiots all over. It is easier to remove the object of derusion and scorn than try to correct perceptions.
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No state has the confederate flag as their symbol... Georgia did but they changed it about 6 years ago. Mississippi has a part of the flag that is similar. It's also important to remember that the confederate flag does not entirely represent slavery. It's also a symbol of rebelling against central government. It's a states rights symbol. Yes clowns will use it as a hate symbol, just as the swastika is used which we all know is a perversion of a good symbol representing the sun, luck and other benign good things... In my opinion you don't fight hate by banning symbols, use the good in the symbol and adopt it for your own. There is serious history that should not be forgotten. Blacks embracing this symbol will de-power racism. The symbol is empowered by opposing force. It will work like this every single time. Biden is a pandering butthead flaming up shit for his own benefit.
I wouldn't say that Mississippi has a part of the flag that is similar.
A part of the state flag looks straight like the confederate flag. Please enlighten me on the differences between the original and the one appearing on the Mississippi state flag.
(http://www.theodora.com/flags/state_flags/mississippi_state_flag.gif)
BTW, your comparison to the swastika is a good one IMO. It shows what the problem is all about.
Even if the confederate flag in itself isn't evil or picked to represent racist values, it may be a symbol for most people of apartheid and even slavery in the USA.
Think about it for a moment: In the confederate states, slavery was allowed.
That flag represents the confederate states.
Anyone can claim that the confederate state flag is about being anti-government et al. But why not pick an anarchy flag or something that can't be related to racism? ???
IMO, it's an easy choice.
-Hedge
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bottom line, this is Biden stirring shit for personal gain. Yes there is some of a racism issue but it's flat out wrong to say everything behind that flag is racist and a mistake in my opinion because it empowers the symbol for that use. A few years back, Jesse Jackson was saying that western civilization needed to be destroyed. That is the ancient tenants of the west, of the European people, that white/light is good and black/dark is evil and everything born of it must die. There, it's the approach, vilifying a people's ancient cultural beliefs. When he did that he empowed factions that would put meaning in that toward blacks. Way way wrong approach. I guarantee he sent more people toward racism by attacking the cultural beliefs of European disendants. The confederate flag and the confederacy is an important part of American history, I personally see no issue with a state that doesn't hide a very important past. I just think it's a huge mistake to vilify the flag again, it will do nothing but empower everything wrong with it when it could just as easily be turned benign and made a historical symbol of a painful time in American history for all Americans to claim, black, red and white. Exactly what should have been done with the swastika, it should have been encouraged for the traditional uses, returned to the people, where those uses presented themselves, but the swastika as a negative symbol became more powerful after WWII for both hate and political purposes--that's disgusting...
With the mississippi flag, the key note to make in my opinion is it is a PART of the flag just as it is an undeniable part of the history of mississippi, it is not THE FLAG...
I know my thinking is radical in this area but I come to this thinking with a good understanding of how a wave of political energy can be used by opposing forces like an akido master would use the force of his opponent against him.
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Couldn't agree with you more. The Confederate flag (all its incarnations), at its root, is a symbol of the CSA cause. Most people think that cause was slavery, but it states rights. Slavery was a peripheral issue, and only made an issue because of the U.S. government's insistance that the federal powers trumped state powers. Slavery was just a way for one side to demonize another. How else could lifelong friends kill each other, kill fellow countrymen? The sad truth is that the Confederate flag will always be viewed with disdain by the masses because to them the Confederate flag will ALWAYS be synonymous with slavery -- and a good chunk of the folks that LIKE the Confederate flag are racists. People are idiots all over. It is easier to remove the object of derusion and scorn than try to correct perceptions.
beautifully said.
i am a member of the SCV and i find disgraceful when people use the flag as a racist symbol. and as long as it is used by the KKK and skinhead nazi's it will always be viewed as such.
if we forget our past, our future doesn't stand a chance.
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bottom line, this is Biden stirring shit for personal gain. Yes there is some of a racism issue but it's flat out wrong to say everything behind that flag is racist and a mistake in my opinion because it empowers the symbol for that use. A few years back, Jesse Jackson was saying that western civilization needed to be destroyed. That is the ancient tenants of the west, of the European people, that white/light is good and black/dark is evil and everything born of it must die. There, it's the approach, vilifying a people's ancient cultural beliefs. When he did that he empowed factions that would put meaning in that toward blacks. Way way wrong approach. I guarantee he sent more people toward racism by attacking the cultural beliefs of European disendants. The confederate flag and the confederacy is an important part of American history, I personally see no issue with a state that doesn't hide a very important past. I just think it's a huge mistake to vilify the flag again, it will do nothing but empower everything wrong with it when it could just as easily be turned benign and made a historical symbol of a painful time in American history for all Americans to claim, black, red and white. Exactly what should have been done with the swastika, it should have been encouraged for the traditional uses, returned to the people, where those uses presented themselves, but the swastika as a negative symbol became more powerful after WWII for both hate and political purposes--that's disgusting...
With the mississippi flag, the key note to make in my opinion is it is a PART of the flag just as it is an undeniable part of the history of mississippi, it is not THE FLAG...
I know my thinking is radical in this area but I come to this thinking with a good understanding of how a wave of political energy can be used by opposing forces like an akido master would use the force of his opponent against him.
Very good points you're making.
I have to admit you're making sense, and that I may change my stance on this issue.
The key is obviously to refuse to censor the issue doesn't exist.
An open discussion is what the dark forces of anti-democracy fear.
Beautiful point made about Jesse Jackson too, definitely understand what you mean.
We have a similar problem in Sweden with multiculturalism, the higher crime rate of immigrants being a taboo topic for the media and the politicians for many years, paving the way for a few right-wing extremists.
Only when the established parties and the mainstream media brings up the topic and discusses it without holding back, will the right-wing extremists be kept at bay.
-Hedge
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another thing... priorities.
We're shipping 21,500 men to iraq this month and Biden is spending the first weeks of a majority congress dealing with a cosmetic domestic issue. It's about 150th on the list of things he should be worrying about in the next 2 years. The soldiers dying for a "maintenance" war should rank higher.
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Very good points you're making.
I have to admit you're making sense, and that I may change my stance on this issue.
The key is obviously to refuse to censor the issue doesn't exist.
An open discussion is what the dark forces of anti-democracy fear.
Beautiful point made about Jesse Jackson too, definitely understand what you mean.
We have a similar problem in Sweden with multiculturalism, the higher crime rate of immigrants being a taboo topic for the media and the politicians for many years, paving the way for a few right-wing extremists.
Only when the established parties and the mainstream media brings up the topic and discusses it without holding back, will the right-wing extremists be kept at bay.
-Hedge
I think you hit on a key point missing from my thinking and that's communication. None of this works without honest purposeful discussion. well said!
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beautifully said.
i am a member of the SCV and i find disgraceful when people use the flag as a racist symbol. and as long as it is used by the KKK and skinhead nazi's it will always be viewed as such.
if we forget our past, our future doesn't stand a chance.
But isn't that precisely what a state is doing if they adopted the flag as a state symbol to protest the end of segregation?
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But isn't that precisely what a state is doing if they adopted the flag as a state symbol to protest the end of segregation?
i can't debate that point because i've never heard the arguement of the CF put in those terms.
i'm not sure what you mean by "adopted" the flag. would a state outside the confederacy adopt the confederate flag?
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i can't debate that point because i've never heard the arguement of the CF put in those terms.
i'm not sure what you mean by "adopted" the flag. would a state outside the confederacy adopt the confederate flag?
You probably know a lot more about this than me, but my understanding is some of these states didn't incorporate all or part of the confederate flag until the 1950s and 1960s to protest things like Brown v. Board and the changing civil rights laws. If true, then I have a problem. I don't have a problem with a state honoring confederate soldiers, but I'm not sure that's why these symbols were adopted.
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You probably know a lot more about this than me, but my understanding is some of these states didn't incorporate all or part of the confederate flag until the 1950s and 1960s to protest things like Brown v. Board and the changing civil rights laws. If true, then I have a problem. I don't have a problem with a state honoring confederate soldiers, but I'm not sure that's why these symbols were adopted.
i honestly have never heard of that. i will try to do some research on that when i get home this evening.
here's a story that really chapped my hide.
the city leaders where i live removed the confederate flag from the entrance of a confederate cemetary where soldiers are buried.
:'(
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i honestly have never heard of that. i will try to do some research on that when i get home this evening.
here's a story that really chapped my hide.
the city leaders where i live removed the confederate flag from the entrance of a confederate cemetary where soldiers are buried.
:'(
Ridiculous.
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I'm normally extremely sceptical towards celebrities making political statements, but...
Morgan Freeman, an actor, also a political activist, has two issues he pushes, YEAR ROUND:
1. Get rid of the confederate flag in state flags
2. Get rid of the Black History Month
I agree with him 100% on both these issues.
-Hedge
Me too. There aint a white history month or an asian history month. If we get rid of these damn special considerations we will be looked as equals. IMO
Im not sure why freeman thinks so but thats my rational on black history month...shit we need to learn everyones history year round.
The funniest thing is Sonny Purdue..He said before he got into office in Ga that he would keep the confiderate flag to get the redneck vote...as soon as he got in he changed it..LMAO the hicks cant stand him either but they wont dare put a dem in office.
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I wouldn't say that Mississippi has a part of the flag that is similar.
A part of the state flag looks straight like the confederate flag. Please enlighten me on the differences between the original and the one appearing on the Mississippi state flag.
(http://www.theodora.com/flags/state_flags/mississippi_state_flag.gif)
BTW, your comparison to the swastika is a good one IMO. It shows what the problem is all about.
Even if the confederate flag in itself isn't evil or picked to represent racist values, it may be a symbol for most people of apartheid and even slavery in the USA.
Think about it for a moment: In the confederate states, slavery was allowed.
That flag represents the confederate states.
Anyone can claim that the confederate state flag is about being anti-government et al. But why not pick an anarchy flag or something that can't be related to racism? ???
IMO, it's an easy choice.
-Hedge
Slavery was allowed in the northern states throughout the war, and the Confederacy didn't kill millions of people like the Nazis did.
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Just watched an episode of Stephen Fry in America where he was talking to a black woman in the south about the confederate flag. He asked if she was offended when she saw the confederate flag displayed. She said absolutely not, that many of her students displayed the confederate flag and she was their favorite teacher. She took it as more of a symbol of southern heritage and history. I tried to find a clip of the segment but couldn't, but that's basically what she said.
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Just watched an episode of Stephen Fry in America where he was talking to a black woman in the south about the confederate flag. He asked if she was offended when she saw the confederate flag displayed. She said absolutely not, that many of her students displayed the confederate flag and she was their favorite teacher. She took it as more of a symbol of southern heritage and history. I tried to find a clip of the segment but couldn't, but that's basically what she said.
After traveling in filthy boxcars for days on end, ...alot of Jews welcomed the opportunity to take a shower too ;)
On person's opinion isn't necessarily an intelligent one, let alone the definitive answer on an issue.
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It's a disgrace that these states still keep the confederate symbol in their State flag.
Nothing short of a disgrace.
It's not a Democrat-Republican issue either.
Legislators needs to wake the fcuk up and show some spine.
-Hedge
wtf why ???
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Even if the confederate flag in itself isn't evil or picked to represent racist values, it may be a symbol for most people of apartheid and even slavery in the USA.
Think about it for a moment: In the confederate states, slavery was allowed.
That flag represents the confederate states.
Anyone can claim that the confederate state flag is about being anti-government et al. But why not pick an anarchy flag or something that can't be related to racism? ???
im being completely honest saying this
thats the most ignorant statement ive read on this board ever political board
wtf lol
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After traveling in filthy boxcars for days on end, ...alot of Jews welcomed the opportunity to take a shower too ;)
On person's opinion isn't necessarily an intelligent one, let alone the definitive answer on an issue.
a little overkill of a statement imo... I don't think everytime you see a confederate flag there are murdering black hating whites behind it lol...
Some will get upset at this but I also think it's stupid that the "swastika" should endure for eternity as a symbol of the nasis. We all know the history of that symbol is way bigger than that. Yes scumbag nazis still use it today, it's just kinda silly that it will only be remembered for that.
The Civil War is part of American history. The south is not Nazi Germany. They were not sending blacks in trains to be melted away in the showers.
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Being from/in the South all of my life, other than in the military, I always find it laughable when people OUTSIDE the south.....or even country, jaguar....want to tell people what the flag represents. Symbols and flags can represent many things to many people, just like Hugo said in regards to the swastika....so how about let the people who display it decide?