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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Necrosis on January 30, 2007, 01:28:41 PM
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True Adonis as per the debate i will refrain from the personal attacks if you do.
ill let you start. what arguments are there against the exsistence of a god, not a christian god, not a islamic god. a deity, a cosmic intelligence. why is secular humanism correct.
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True Adonis as per the debate i will refrain from the personal attacks if you do.
ill let you start. what arguments are there against the exsistence of a god, not a christian god, not a islamic god. a deity, a cosmic intelligence. why is secular humanism correct.
The one argument why there is no god is because there is no proof that there is one.
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The one argument why there is no god is because there is no proof that there is one.
yes there is would you like some.
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True Adonis as per the debate i will refrain from the personal attacks if you do.
ill let you start. what arguments are there against the exsistence of a god, not a christian god, not a islamic god. a deity, a cosmic intelligence. why is secular humanism correct.
athiesm is faith based just as much as religion is...
and thats coming from an athiest..i'm just an athiest up untill proven wrong..i have an open mind..
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yes there is would you like some.
aahahahaaaaaaa, lmao. kiss my ass. :-* :-*
;) ;D ;D
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athiesm is faith based just as much as religion is...
and thats coming from an athiest..i'm just an athiest up untill proven wrong..i have an open mind..
i agree.
yes but im just making a point that people like adonis and NasscisicDeity are clowns who wont dare open there mouths lest they be exposed as ignorant.
but yet they have attacked my intelligence for my beleif but wont back up what they say, it just shows me that they shouldnt call themselves atheists, they havent thought enough about it.
i have no problem with atheists, at all, i know many atheists who are very smart and have good reasons for there disbelief.
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aahahahaaaaaaa, lmao. kiss my ass. :-* :-*
;) ;D ;D
ill pm bay about it ;D
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ill pm bay about it ;D
usmokepole. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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usmokepole. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
i choose a bad handle while smashed i suppose i could start another one. but im too lazy.
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i agree.
yes but im just making a point that people like adonis and NasscisicDeity are clowns who wont dare open there mouths lest they be exposed as ignorant.
but yet they have attacked my intelligence for my beleif but wont back up what they say, it just shows me that they shouldnt call themselves atheists, they havent thought enough about it.
i have no problem with atheists, at all, i know many atheists who are very smart and have good reasons for there disbelief.
an athiest that goes around making fun of people under a superiority complex has actually deep seated self esteem issues and just dont even know what he/she believse
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an athiest that goes around making fun of people under a superiority complex has actually deep seated self esteem issues and just dont even know what he/she believse
yes i agree, i dont think that either theism or atheism is a matter of intellect. theres only faith and how can you condem someone for haiving a different faith? you cant i dont know if theres a god, i beleive there is, but i dont know for certain in the end.
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usmokepole (epic screenname btw), I know u dont adhere to a particular religion, yet u believe in God (not that there aren't other examples of this). So I have some questions for you: In your belief, is the existence of God consequential to your life? (not just mere existence) And with that follow other questions, such as what principles/beliefs u adhere to that u believe make ur life more "proper" or meaningful. The second question maybe a bit loaded, and I apologise if that is the case. I'll be happy if u can answer those questions, even if your answers are short. Whatever u deem appropriatte. And please, if u can provide with some links, that would be great and much appreciatted.
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usmokepole (epic screenname btw), I know u dont adhere to a particular religion, yet u believe in God (not that there aren't other examples of this). So I have some questions for you: In your belief, is the existence of God consequential to your life? (not just mere existence) And with that follow other questions, such as what principles/beliefs u adhere to that u believe make ur life more "proper" or meaningful. The second question maybe a bit loaded, and I apologise if that is the case. I'll be happy if u can answer those questions, even if your answers are short. Whatever u deem appropriatte. And please, if u can provide with some links, that would be great and much appreciatted.
i have no problem answering questions, however it might be a bit long.
the first question is hard to answer. ill try though. if there was a god, an all powerful perfect creature why would he create? if you say to admire work, children etc that is saying that god has needs hence he is not perfect. so i beleive this question is the paramount. so logically (this comes from haish's book, the god theory(zero point fields)) and some of the book conversations with god that god creates because his purpose is to create/exist. everything has a contingency a reason(aquinas) gods is for anything to exist, he is necessary to exsist and his essence is too exist. however, being perfect and infinite you cannot experience yourself, polarity black/white male/female is needed for you to experience something. you know you exist becasue of the internal reality vs external. therefore the purpose of us is for god to experience himself. he creates us to experience realty, we are god. we are the body but not the god head. there is a difference. we are not the ultimate perfection but the manifest inperfection that is needed for experience.
perfection cannot experience itself only imperfection. infinite cannot experience itself only finite. therefore from everything god created this something.
this fits with multiverse theory, many universes equals more experiences and gradual evolution. everything both matter and consciousnous is experience.
now, back to is god important in my life? to be honest im not done forming my opinion. however, god cares about himself therefore cares about me. but morality tends to lead me to believe that god has a reason for the creation or experience, morality is gods way of telling us how to live, what is correct. through the creation he experiences himself but morality shows me that there is a purpose for this experience.
now from some physics the universe is really just all one thing,everything is connected(entanglment) this again shows me there is one reality, one chief thing(god) that there is only god. however, im not buddhist.
i pray but i dont have any particular practices that i do to aid beleif.
the rules i follow are simple, i do the right things. morality has given us an internal sense of right and wrong. when i see someone looking for some money for food, everyone knows when they pass by you justify the reason for not helping etc, there is dissonance. i just try to do what would or should be right.
i also draw some of my stuff from parapsychology because psychology is what my education is in. the messages from ndes all over the world are always oneness, and love, and purpose. i beleive love is one of the goals of life. i do actually beleive in alot of what jesus said/did.
my views havent been completely finished cemented yet. im still reading and trying to answer questions.
ive read alot of books and articles on religion,science etc and that is were my ideas come from. ive really just taken the best principles and the most logical ideas from alot of more intelligent people and tried to integrate them.
sorry for the clusterfuck of ideas the question is hard to answer without me going into alot more information.
there are reasons i beleive in divinity, if you want i can list some of them. any other questions or objections let em fly. im open to new ideas, because mine arent finished yet.
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there are alot of books and articles i read to from my opinions. and to be honest a many conversations with a very smart atheist formed my opinions. anytime i said something that wasnt rational i heard about it, that helped me out alot.
i can post links to some of the books if you want.
the best book i ever read was wonder of the world by varghese. it converted antony flew. if you beleive in god you should really read that book. its amazing with awesome arguments and questions.
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yes there is would you like some.
please do so......... real prove!
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please do so......... real prove!
haha what do you mean by real proof. do you mean that 1+1=2 or logical best answer in relation to the options proof.
i can offer one 1+1=2 at the moment and many logical answers.
for the first one
visit this website
http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/iidb.htm
he posted the info on the worlds largest atheist board and won the argument.
it goes like this, however a good understanding of information theory is needed.
information can only come from intelligence. that is instructions or information are independent of the media which convey them. a paper and pen do not convey the message the information created by the pen and paper contain the info. a snowflake is an example of organization in nature, however there is no blueprint to make the snowflake, you cannot look at the hydrogen bonds and decipher how to create a snowflake and no template exists. intelligence is the only thing that can create information, computers are great examples of this the binary 1 and 0 in themselves are useless, but the sequence forms information for programs and software.
DNA is a information system with encoding and decoding systems. the c,t,a,g are like letters of the alphabet that code the instructions on how to make every living organism. the c,t,a,g mean nothing, but the arrangement contains information on how to make a human, or a pig or a cow. DNA contains information. since information can only come from intelligence, DNA was created by intelligence. the decoding encoding system is more complicated and better explained by marshall then i would be able to do. there is only one system that we know of that contains information, DNA.
now this could be aliens or god, but the information has to come from somewere. this is a very obvious and soundproof argument.
the argument is somewhat expoused in yockley's book were the bulk of the info comes from.
i think ill change this thread into arguments for god. something interesting. any atheists feel free to argue, or anyone who sees a problem with my logic.
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a second argument comes from the fine tuning of the universe, the anthropic nature of the universe.
here are just a few
The nuclear strong force holds together the particles in the nucleus of an atom. If the strong nuclear force were 2% (9% according to Bradley, 50% according to Collins) weaker, multi-proton nuclei would not hold together and hydrogen would be the only stable element in the universe. If the strong force were 1% stronger, hydrogen would rapidly fuse into helium-2; it is also argued that elements heavier than iron would be rare, since they result from fusion during the explosion of supernovae. Collins disputes this on the grounds that the helium-2 would rapidly decay into deuterium which could then fuse into helium-4, but has claimed that this increase would drastically decrease the amount of oxygen (relative to carbon) in the Universe (and that a decrease would have the reverse effect).
The nuclear weak force affects the behavior of leptons (e.g. neutrinos, electrons, and muons), which do not participate in strong nuclear reactions. Bradley has argued that if the weak force were slightly larger, neutrons would decay more readily, and therefore would be less available, and little or no helium would be produced from the big bang. Without the necessary helium, heavy elements such as carbon could not be made by the nuclear furnaces inside stars. Conversely, he and Collins argue, if the weak force were slightly smaller, the big bang would burn most or all of the hydrogen into helium, which would make hydrogen-containing molecules rare, and shorten the lifespan of stars, since they would be fusing helium instead of hydrogen.
The intensity of the force binding electrons to protons in atoms depends on the electromagnetic coupling constant. The characteristics of the orbits of electrons about atoms determines to what degree atoms will bond together to form molecules. If the electromagnetic coupling constant were different atoms and molecules would be significantly different.
The ratio of electron to proton mass also determines the characteristics of the orbits of electrons about nuclei. A proton is approximately 1836 times more massive than an electron. If the electron to proton mass ratio were different, atoms and molecules would be significantly different. Bradley has also quoted Stephen Hawking as saying that the neutron mass minus the proton mass must be roughly twice the mass of the electron, in order to ensure the approximate stability of both particles. Collins attributes a similar argument to Barrow and Tipler, although he disputes its relevance to the formation of life on the grounds that pairs of neutrons could decay into deuterons.
The entropy level of the universe affects the condensation of massive systems. The universe contains about one billion photons for every baryon. This makes the universe extremely entropic, i.e. a very efficient radiator and a very poor engine. If the entropy level for the universe were slightly larger, no galactic systems would form (and therefore no stars). If the entropy level were slightly smaller, the galactic systems that formed would effectively trap radiation and prevent any fragmentation of the systems into stars. In either case, the universe would be devoid of stars and solar systems.
The force of gravity affects the interaction of particles. In order for life as we know it to form, the force of gravity must be many orders of magnitude weaker than the force of electromagnetism for charged elementary particles. (Frank Wilczek has said that it is not the force of gravity that is so weak, but the mass of the particles that is so small.) The relationship of gravity to electromagnetism as it currently exists is this: The positively charged particles must equal in charge the negatively charged particles or else electromagnetism will dominate gravity, and stars, galaxies and planets will not form. The numbers of electrons must equal the numbers of protons to better than one part of 1037 (10 to the 37th power), since gravity is 1038 times weaker than electromagnetism. Collins cites arguments (for example by Martin Rees) that if gravity were a billion times stronger than it is, no planet could support any significant ecosystem or civilization. He considers this fine-tuning on the grounds that "to the total range of strengths of the forces in nature (which span a range of 1040 as we saw above), this still amounts to a one-sided fine-tuning of one part in 1031".
Both Bradley and Collins have argued that the cosmological constant must be fine-tuned to within one part in 1050 for the Universe not to enter a runaway expansion phase.
anyhow, the universe is so finely tuned that it is basically statistically impossible to have happened by chance
this leaves three logical conclusions
1)there is an intelligent agent who manipulates the constants so they are just right
2)there are an infinite number of universes that have everyother possible arrangement, hence ours has the variables that are just right
3)the reason it appears fine tuned is because we are here to talk about it.
however, the last answer is always the one given by alot of people, if it wasnt fine tuned we wouldnt be here, making it appear fine tuned.
john leslie a philosopher shows the error of this argument. say your tied to a tree and a fireing squad begins to shoot at you. if one person shoots and misses you chalk it up to a miss, nothing spectacular, nothing divine, a miss.
say 15 guys shoot at you with semis for five minutes but not one bullet hits you. this surely cannot be chalked up to chance, the mere improbability of the situation requires and explanation. chance isnt good enough, it requires a plausible explanation.
this is the scenario but even more so with the universe, we are on a razors edge that requires an answer, chance wont do.
option two says there are a infinite number of universes each with unique properties etc. however, because of relativity we cannot test outside universes, and this belief is based in just as much if not more faith then god.
once you say outside the universe you open pandoras box, by definition the universe is all that exists.
the first option is the most logically sensible, the universe may be or is all there is and intelligence fine tuned it.
ill post other arguments later.
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well i am an atheist!!!
when i ask for proof, i was talking about the bible and jesus and all the bullshit around it!
You see i don't believe in any gods, jesus(god), buddhism, christianism, you name it!
those are all made up religions, bible is a book wrote by someone (or more) with a big open mind, any one with a head on his shoulder and with the will to do good around him can come up with the same result.
but...... there must be something, powerfull, doesn't have to be a god, but just a force, or maybe there is nothing at all...
there is no prove whatsoever about god or jesus, never.
you see where i chock up, it's when someone talk about jesus did this or that, or god said if you do this or that....... i mean it can't be, not logic!
stuff like Noe, Adam and eve, those are fairy tales, that takes the cake!
or any preachers on tv, god told me to do this....... stfu! con man.
the Mayas used to believe that god was the sun, me and you know it's ridiculous, i feel the same way about gods.
there is 100,000's of planets like ours in the universe that we can see for now, imagine how many advance (or not) planets there is, let's say you could talk to them and say ''hey! how do you feel about jesus, remember when he walked on water and came back from the dead, oops sorry no water here, uhhhh, ok you know his father...god, no? ''
his answer '' what! (translate) and buiiiiiizzzzzzz vaporized'' why because is god is a piece of high power technology, and he will protect it with his life! it doesn't make sense right!!! or let say his god from far away is planet earth (i know it sounds crazy) just like the Mayas, it was the sun, what would you say?
you could play the game and say you are god!
everytime someone talk about the origin of men, god is in the picture again, no way, can't be, not logic, doesn't make sense............. we call it evolution, from the big bang (if that was really it), protein synthesis, dinosaur, the evolution of men (caveman, we have proof) how come we have proof of dinosaur, caveman (we have bones and bodies) 100,000 years ago, we have proof of pharaon 3000 years ago, but none of jesus, why, because it's an hoaxes, made up....... it became a cult than they made a book out of it, re-done the book, again and again and ...... boom church, you know one of the biggest army who killed people was the church!!! forcing people to become catholics
do you believe in bigfoot, ufo's, ghost, anything weird? i think god fit in that!
i know it sounds weird...............
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your last post is what i'm talking about!
actually last night i was watching something similar on the net, pretty good!
You see i like to know more about that possibility, not a book and a guy name jesus!
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ITS funny how you say you dont believe in GOD or JESUS yet when you get in trouble who do you call for help? funny thing is most ppl who say they dont believe yell out for GOD!, if you dont believe in GOD how do you believe everything was Created? come on have a brain
when will you believe when you are in hell? well hell is hot my friends and it will be to late.
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too bad you believe in something that doesn't exist, that's the typical answer a believer will give, why cause that all you know, thats all you see around you, open your mind, think about other possibilities, and if you find everything about jesus and the bible logic...........you probably believe in bigfoot too!!!
edit: and your asking me to have a brain......... wow!!!
and if i'm wrong, i know i'm not, where do you think i wanna go........ hell, thats where all bitches are, what do you think sex every night party for eternity, yeah baby i'm coming down, whoooooooooo hooooooooo!!!
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too bad you believe in something that doesn't exist, that's the typical answer a believer will give, why cause that all you know, thats all you see around you, open your mind, think about other possibilities, and if you find everything about jesus and the bible logic...........you probably believe in bigfoot too!!!
and if i'm wrong, i know i'm not, where do you think i wanna go........ hell, thats where all bitches are, what do you think sex every night party for eternity, yeah baby i'm coming down, whoooooooooo hooooooooo!!!
sorry to disappoint you bro but if you read the bible you will know that hell is not a club to go party and nail bitches it is a place where you will be tortured and burned for ever
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than let it be, won't happen!!!
man you are really into it, again there is no such thing as jesus (no proof), bible is a book, please!!!
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than let it be, won't happen!!!
man you are really into it, again there is no such thing as jesus (no proof), bible is a book, please!!!
btw, beatmaster, there is/are no god/s in buddhism, so you don't need proof for that.
zen buddhism, for example, is purely "to work by yourself".
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than let it be, won't happen!!!
man you are really into it, again there is no such thing as jesus (no proof), bible is a book, please!!!
Actually, Jesus was a real person... he may not have been God's "son", or even a Messiah of any sort, but he did truly exist as a human being at the least.
He is considered a prophet in the Muslim faith. (A lesser than Mohammed prophet, but a prophet none the less) The man did exist.
The Bible is just a book and it's pages were written by mere men... That's it. Nothing special there... It's no more a biography of the past than The Lord of The Rings was.
They are both works of fiction.
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Actually, Jesus was a real person... he may not have been God's "son", or even a Messiah of any sort, but he did truly exist as a human being at the least.
He is considered a prophet in the Muslim faith. (A lesser than Mohammed prophet, but a prophet none the less) The man did exist.
The Bible is just a book and it's pages were written by mere men... That's it. Nothing special there... It's no more a biography of the past than The Lord of The Rings was.
They are both works of fiction.
The difference is, LOTR was written by one man at one time, the bible is hearsaying of things that were 100 years earlier.
That there is much fiction to it is clearly visible by the fact that there are 4 different "evangelia", all with different content.
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your last post is what i'm talking about!
actually last night i was watching something similar on the net, pretty good!
You see i like to know more about that possibility, not a book and a guy name jesus!
the first argument should be somewhat convincing that there exists a god or a intelligence that directed life.
i dont believe in the bible nor a religion as already stated. i beleive in a god. that is all, a god that doesnt need my praise, but it would benefit me to praise him. a god that is seperated from us, that cant or wont interact for many reasons.
anyway ill post some more evidence or arguments. if you can think of a more logical explanation let me know.
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your last post is what i'm talking about!
actually last night i was watching something similar on the net, pretty good!
You see i like to know more about that possibility, not a book and a guy name jesus!
yes as do i, however i dont make pronouncements that what is in the bible may not be true. you dont know the truth and i dont. i have some plausible explanations which i think are correct.
hell cannot exist, it totally goes aganist a loving god. karma is a much better answer, we reap what we so, but cannot suffer for eternity.
ill post a thrid argument about the possiblity of god. let me know what you think.
ill post it later.
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yes as do i, however i dont make pronouncements that what is in the bible may not be true. you dont know the truth and i dont. i have some plausible explanations which i think are correct.
hell cannot exist, it totally goes aganist a loving god. karma is a much better answer, we reap what we so, but cannot suffer for eternity.
ill post a thrid argument about the possiblity of god. let me know what you think.
ill post it later.
Stop asking about God... I'm right here... watching everything you type.
P.S... I think "W" is an idiot too... I didn't create that... no way in Hell.
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a thrid argument is one that i always post, and is really the only logical conclusion.
QUESTION "why is there something insted of nothing"
that is why is there anything at all? it is just as likely that nothing could exist.
here is the argument
for anything to exist something must exist for which its essence(purpose) is to exist(back to contingencies).
nothing can never ever produce something even if given eternity. nothing has no laws, no rules, no potential the word nothign literally means nothing.if given forever nothing wouldnt create something. this then leads into the logical conclusion, that something has always existed. what does that mean?
well we know this universe had a beginning called a singularity the big bang. and that time actually was created, as strange as it may sound. therefore what ever came before the big bang, obviously the word "created" implies a preclude, that is time was created, but from what?
so everything there is and ever will be has always existed, something has always existed, it is eternal.
however, if everything needs to be created what created the first thing or god.
cause, as in the first cause is a temporal factor, that is cause and effect exist because of time. time had a beginning anything before time doesnt operate with cause and effect, time doesnt exist. also, if everything needs a cause, then you would have an infinite regression of causes, thus nothing would exist, because everything would need a prior cause. so from above something has always existed, and that primary thing is timeless or uncaused because of the above arguement.
this logically answers the questions the usually come. what created the primary thing or god. this is already answered, cause is a problem of time, without time cause does not exist. also, the primary thing or god must be uncaused for anything to exist because if there was no uncaused cause, there would always have to be a prior cause and existence wouldnt be here.
so matter needs a cause(the big bang), anything unmaterial does not, that is anythign before time.
from all the above logic you can defer that:
-what ever caused existence is timeless and has always existed
-it is immaterial
-all powerful(it created everything)
-supernatural(above the laws, or outside is all this means, not fire breathing)
-it is uncaused or eternal, similar to above
-and its existence is necessary for anything to exist, it creates.
if you say previous universes existed, your just delaying the question of what caused those universes? they would have to be timeless, and immaterial and the propagate of other universes. sounds like god to me.
ill post another gem tommorrow ;D for all the non-beleiving atheists. if your open minded i dont see how all the arugments i am going to present cant convince you of at least a deity. if they dont id like to hear why my logic is flawed, or any counters.
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The burden of proof in this discussion, is always on the person claiming there is a God.
Because without evidence, you have nothing.
You may believe there is a God, but we cannot ask people to prove there is NO God.
Because first we need to prove there is.
-Hedge
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The burden of proof in this discussion, is always on the person claiming there is a God.
Because without evidence, you have nothing.
You may believe there is a God, but we cannot ask people to prove there is NO God.
Because first we need to prove there is.
-Hedge
im in the process of doing that. i will try to answer all of the questions.
1)ive already shown that information can only come from intelligence. DNA is intelligence, this argument alone should prove intelligence began life, theres no way around it. using information theory its a perfect example.
2)only intelligence could fine tune the earth
3)something exists rather then nothing because something exists whos essence is too exist
ill post more but if you just say nah to the arguments your mind is closed. a deity is highly more probable then random chance and ill put a few more arguments out there, that i feel are evidence of god.
i cant convince the hardened skeptic, they will need to see god. but hedge as you know if we could see god for certain life would be pointless.
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the fact that god cant be disproved is enough for most people.
i believe stronglky in god and have had many experiences where i believe this can be backed up. in mass or wehen i pray or think about god my head goes very tingly and feels as tho some one is touching it. this is sed to be the holy spirit coming uopn us. its happening now. its a nice soothing feeling which gives comfort its not scary or invasive.
miracles are also estremnly hard to expolkain except god.
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what kills me the most is when preachers pretended they recieved messages from god!
medium and all the other bullshiters, saying they speak for god.
like i said before, their is a place in the us : they give you one million dollards if you can come up with any proof about anything out of the ordinary, god, meduim, ufo ........ anything, funny thing is no one showed up yet!!!
any gods, are man made up......... simple.
conception of the univers or anything else is a different story (bible = story)
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what kills me the most is when preachers pretended they recieved messages from god!
medium and all the other bullshiters, saying they speak for god.
like i said before, their is a place in the us : they give you one million dollards if you can come up with any proof about anything out of the ordinary, god, meduim, ufo ........ anything, funny thing is no one showed up yet!!!
any gods, are man made up......... simple.
conception of the univers or anything else is a different story (bible = story)
randi millions is what your referring too. he doesnt take stats, and he sets up the contest or experiment himself, wants ridiculous alpha levels and odds. he has already said publicy, along with dawkins that he would soon have to give up his money based on alll the research and data on telepathy. any of those types of challenges are hoaxes, do you know theres a million dollar challenge to disprove the data? well there is guess what no one has guess its reality hey. being ignorant to the research is no excuse, its more reliable then anti depressant research for gods sake.
beatmaster dont my arguments make you think. i mean you seem to just want to beleive in no god. the god of the bible might not exist, but a willful being does imo. i dont see how he/she couldnt. ill post another argument.
TELEPATHY IS A FACT. i have tons of research proving it. if you want to deny the research thats fine, but its just ignorance. sheldrake has undeniable data that can be repeated.
goudy, you cant prove the negative, if anyone beleives in god because theres no proof against him then they are meatbags. you cant prove theres a man dressed in blue on the moon who sells sausages, guess we should beleive in him too. the reason alot of people beleive in god is they have an internal intuition, the "there has to be" when things go wrong, kids without a religious up bringing prey to god, its in us. why? i beleive because there is.
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i have no problem answering questions, however it might be a bit long.
the first question is hard to answer. ill try though. if there was a god, an all powerful perfect creature why would he create? if you say to admire work, children etc that is saying that god has needs hence he is not perfect. so i beleive this question is the paramount. so logically (this comes from haish's book, the god theory(zero point fields)) and some of the book conversations with god that god creates because his purpose is to create/exist. everything has a contingency a reason(aquinas) gods is for anything to exist, he is necessary to exsist and his essence is too exist. however, being perfect and infinite you cannot experience yourself, polarity black/white male/female is needed for you to experience something. you know you exist becasue of the internal reality vs external. therefore the purpose of us is for god to experience himself. he creates us to experience realty, we are god. we are the body but not the god head. there is a difference. we are not the ultimate perfection but the manifest inperfection that is needed for experience.
perfection cannot experience itself only imperfection. infinite cannot experience itself only finite. therefore from everything god created this something.
this fits with multiverse theory, many universes equals more experiences and gradual evolution. everything both matter and consciousnous is experience.
now, back to is god important in my life? to be honest im not done forming my opinion. however, god cares about himself therefore cares about me. but morality tends to lead me to believe that god has a reason for the creation or experience, morality is gods way of telling us how to live, what is correct. through the creation he experiences himself but morality shows me that there is a purpose for this experience.
now from some physics the universe is really just all one thing,everything is connected(entanglment) this again shows me there is one reality, one chief thing(god) that there is only god. however, im not buddhist.
i pray but i dont have any particular practices that i do to aid beleif.
the rules i follow are simple, i do the right things. morality has given us an internal sense of right and wrong. when i see someone looking for some money for food, everyone knows when they pass by you justify the reason for not helping etc, there is dissonance. i just try to do what would or should be right.
i also draw some of my stuff from parapsychology because psychology is what my education is in. the messages from ndes all over the world are always oneness, and love, and purpose. i beleive love is one of the goals of life. i do actually beleive in alot of what jesus said/did.
my views havent been completely finished cemented yet. im still reading and trying to answer questions.
ive read alot of books and articles on religion,science etc and that is were my ideas come from. ive really just taken the best principles and the most logical ideas from alot of more intelligent people and tried to integrate them.
sorry for the clusterfuck of ideas the question is hard to answer without me going into alot more information.
there are reasons i beleive in divinity, if you want i can list some of them. any other questions or objections let em fly. im open to new ideas, because mine arent finished yet.
appreciatte the long reply bro, sorry couldnt get to it earlier. Definitely learned some new things here- some stuff seemed vague but after carefully re reading I think I have grabbed on to most of the stuff. I'll definitely have more questions later! Thanks.
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appreciatte the long reply bro, sorry couldnt get to it earlier. Definitely learned some new things here- some stuff seemed vague but after carefully re reading I think I have grabbed on to most of the stuff. I'll definitely have more questions later! Thanks.
np at all.
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The burden of proof in this discussion, is always on the person claiming there is a God.
Because without evidence, you have nothing.
You may believe there is a God, but we cannot ask people to prove there is NO God.
Because first we need to prove there is.
-Hedge
Exactly
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Exactly
i dont understand what this his comment even has to do with me providing evidence for belief i never asked him nor anyone to prove the negative.
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Could you comment on the oneness of God (as in Islam and judeo-christian beleifs) or the presence of many gods who collectively made the universe? Do you think one can argue logically for one side or the other? Thanks.
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there can only be one god. it doesnt make logical sense that many gods exist, well not good logic ;D. something has to be the primary.
put another way, something has to exist that is necessary to exist(from the earlier argument about something rather then nothing) for anything to exist. something has to be primary. if you say other gods exist, one of them would have to be the primary god that creates the others. multiple things cannot exist that are necessary to exist. this implys there essence is to exist, which means they have the same purpose and are by definition the same thing.
some one posed this question to me a different way, why cant god be the child of another. i suppose thinking about it, it is possible in a sense. but think of it this way. if you say god have a father, then who is his father? something has to be the uncaused cause, that is, something has to exist to which it cannot exist, it is necessary for anything to exist.
if everything needed a first cause, nothing would exist. you would have an infinite regression of first causes.that is you could always say , "what caused that then". but if this were the case then nothing would exist, because everything needs a first cause, but this cannot be logically true for the above reason. so one thing has to exist that is the primary, neccesity for anything to exist.
you could argue that multiple things exist which are necessary but this has alot of contradictions and fallacies.
the oneness thing is interesting. everything in our reality is actually one, it is a scientific fact, ill be it a controversial one.
in physics there is a principle called entanglement(interesting read) that shows that when two photons interact they become entangled such that the actio of one photon effects the other regardless of distance and instantaneously(this opens up many philosophical doors by the way). so experiemnts have shown(the slit experiment is the most famous) that this is actually the case, that photons relay info to each other regardless of space and act as if they are the same thing even though they are clearly seperate. now the imp thing is that they have to come into contact. however, thanks to the big bang(the singularity) everything in this universe was once all together in a tiny spot called the singularity. this is called phase entanglement, and holds that every photon in this universe, every electron was once together, showing that the universe is in fact one giant thing. a thing in which actions on our planet effect actions are the other end of the universe. everything literally is one. i hold that everything is god, we are god, and this fits exactly with that. we are part of the primary thing, the infinite the only oneness there is.
the oneness side holds with basic philosophical logic and most major religions, and actually is being proven through science. everything has to go back to ONE thing, and if this one thing created many things it is still a component of that ONE thing.
everything is ONE i firmly beleive this.
any other questions fire away. or if you want clarification, some of my writing is a little all over the place. ahaha
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think of it another way which is a little clearer looking at it. there has to be a basic parent, the offspring may be different but are made from the parent. everything can be traced back to that one thing. polygodism is not a strong argument at all, it baffles logic, and you have to look at god interactions, why multiple things exist and how they enfold realty together, and causes.
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If you think of it from a scientoligist perspective, where God is not a person, but a race of beings... The idea of many different Gods would make sense.
It would also make sense as to why earlier civilizations such as the Roman's, Greeks, and Celts had many gods for so many things.
Not that you or I believe in any of that stuff... It just makes you think.
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If you think of it from a scientoligist perspective, where God is not a person, but a race of beings... The idea of many different Gods would make sense.
It would also make sense as to why earlier civilizations such as the Roman's, Greeks, and Celts had many gods for so many things.
Not that you or I believe in any of that stuff... It just makes you think.
it is harder to argue, only one thing can be eternal and infinite, you cant have multiple infinities.
scientoligy is for retards.
i dont beleive in god for my benefit, it is the real only logical conclusion. he could not give a shit about me, or many other things, a eternal infinite has to exist, and its purpose to create. if it has needs then it is not all powerful, and also indicates a purpose for creating in the first place.
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there can only be one god. it doesnt make logical sense that many gods exist, well not good logic ;D. something has to be the primary.
put another way, something has to exist that is necessary to exist(from the earlier argument about something rather then nothing) for anything to exist. something has to be primary. if you say other gods exist, one of them would have to be the primary god that creates the others. multiple things cannot exist that are necessary to exist. this implys there essence is to exist, which means they have the same purpose and are by definition the same thing.
Who is to say that there isn't a "higher" existence that exists beyond our realm? Maybe these "higher" beings created us? It doesn't do away with God but acknowledges our uncertainty as to we came into being, hence the alternative possibilites. I guess then what could be said is that the "higher beings" that created the universe would have to exist because of God in the first place, so in essence we're only nesting the god problem and not doing away with God.
some one posed this question to me a different way, why cant god be the child of another. i suppose thinking about it, it is possible in a sense. but think of it this way. if you say god have a father, then who is his father? something has to be the uncaused cause, that is, something has to exist to which it cannot exist, it is necessary for anything to exist.
if everything needed a first cause, nothing would exist. you would have an infinite regression of first causes.that is you could always say , "what caused that then". but if this were the case then nothing would exist, because everything needs a first cause, but this cannot be logically true for the above reason. so one thing has to exist that is the primary, neccesity for anything to exist.
Makes sense.
you could argue that multiple things exist which are necessary but this has alot of contradictions and fallacies.
the oneness thing is interesting. everything in our reality is actually one, it is a scientific fact, ill be it a controversial one.
in physics there is a principle called entanglement(interesting read) that shows that when two photons interact they become entangled such that the actio of one photon effects the other regardless of distance and instantaneously(this opens up many philosophical doors by the way). so experiemnts have shown(the slit experiment is the most famous) that this is actually the case, that photons relay info to each other regardless of space and act as if they are the same thing even though they are clearly seperate. now the imp thing is that they have to come into contact. however, thanks to the big bang(the singularity) everything in this universe was once all together in a tiny spot called the singularity. this is called phase entanglement, and holds that every photon in this universe, every electron was once together, showing that the universe is in fact one giant thing. a thing in which actions on our planet effect actions are the other end of the universe. everything literally is one. i hold that everything is god, we are god, and this fits exactly with that. we are part of the primary thing, the infinite the only oneness there is.
I follow you until you start saying that singularity is tied in with God, or maybe Im misreading your point. Other views that I have read about describe God as existing in a different dimention, and in no way tied to our reality except that he brought it into existence. This also explains why it is hard for us to imagine an infinite and eternal God, since he exists outside of time and matter. It's actually pretty confusing to me so maybe you could fill me in on this.
the oneness side holds with basic philosophical logic and most major religions, and actually is being proven through science. everything has to go back to ONE thing, and if this one thing created many things it is still a component of that ONE thing.
everything is ONE i firmly beleive this.
any other questions fire away. or if you want clarification, some of my writing is a little all over the place. ahaha
Is this why we think of the everything as part of the "universe"? Singularity ties everything in existence to the universe (thinking of it as a whole rather than random things existing in non-existence), so even though there's no boundaries to the "universe", we think of it as one- this singularity is the universe. I'm not sure if u're following me but that just occured to me as I was typing up the reply ;)
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Who is to say that there isn't a "higher" existence that exists beyond our realm? Maybe these "higher" beings created us? It doesn't do away with God but acknowledges our uncertainty as to we came into being, hence the alternative possibilites. I guess then what could be said is that the "higher beings" that created the universe would have to exist because of God in the first place, so in essence we're only nesting the god problem and not doing away with God.
there is and could be. but we couldnt comment on that. we dont know what infinite truly is nor eternal. we cannot know what it is like to be "outside" of time because we are immersed in this dimension. other dimensions with totally different properties may exist(string theory points to this) but we cannot intelligently comment on them. something we cannot experience or that is foreign is hard to argue, as ready examples are immenent.
what would you call these higher beings that create life? that can create organic materials? that would be some peoples definition of gods. the thing is, we cant know the characteristics of GOD. we as finite creatures cannot know infinite, we always place a boundary on it, trying to enclose something that is not enclosed. therefore, any attributes that we DO and DO NOT ascribe to god are wrong. he/she/it could very well have needs but thats not the depiction most major religions create. there could have been multiple creative creatures, but that just pushes the question back as to how they came, and if they are eternal and infinite then they are god, or gods by definition.
higher beings could have created us, a giant sausage could of, i dont know what god is, looks like etc etc. i know though from logic that something has to be infinite and eternal and create. the other alternative is that this universe is eternal by passing the creation(atheism), but science shows time had a beginning, and that the universe will end, hence not eternal.
I follow you until you start saying that singularity is tied in with God, or maybe Im misreading your point. Other views that I have read about describe God as existing in a different dimention, and in no way tied to our reality except that he brought it into existence. This also explains why it is hard for us to imagine an infinite and eternal God, since he exists outside of time and matter. It's actually pretty confusing to me so maybe you could fill me in on this.
i contend we are god/gods but not god. ken wilber is a good philosopher on the GODHEAD and such. there is the ultimate perfection which is god, then there is the finite inperfection which is god manifest to experience himself. from my earlier posts you know my beleifs.so at the beginning of time(i dont know how to not use time, but it is wrong) god is all there is. this is logical, if god created, this implies he was before the creation. if you are all that exists, you cannot experience yourself, polarity(black/white) defines experience. so god created, or has to create to be god, to experience god, to exist. there has to be something other then god for god to know he is god. so god is perfect and infinite. how can you experience infinite, it is boundless. the answer is you cant. how can you experience perfection? you cant, its perfect. so god creates finite(our existence, and many others imo) to experience infinite. because if you know what it means to be finite, you then can experience your infite. god also created this imperfection to experience perfection, same logic as above.
so based on all this logic, i made some of my own conclusions. we, the universe are part of god, the imperfect, finite part(not the godhead perfect, infinite part). so you would expect that if we are part of this THING then in the actual primary reality we are all part of one giant thing, god. and this is exactly what we find. we are god experiencing himself, but not the theres the other side to god, the side we are not at the moment, the infinite and perfect. so our universe is god, god is in the universe but not like the religious god, or as an active part, but the unverse is god. follow? its a little confusing but the logic is so simplistic it smacks of truth( truth is always simple).
so when you read in the bible, koran that god is closer then your jugular, or knows your every thought, this is literally true. how? because your god, he knows what you know because it his him. you know your thoughts. you can know your every move. but you cannot know anothers because they are seperate. seperation is only an illusion, god is all, therefore god knows everything, always, everywere.
so there is two gods if that makes it easier, but they are the same god.
theres the head(perfect) and the body(us) but they are the same thing, just seperated. this is like what people in deep meditation say, they feel lke they are everything, that they are boundless. this is true, this is the true realtiy.however, if we knew that, we could not experience ourselves, nor could god, making it pointless. thus, we cant know so we can experience.
sorry for the long post bro, im trying to make it clearer.
Is this why we think of the everything as part of the "universe"? Singularity ties everything in existence to the universe (thinking of it as a whole rather than random things existing in non-existence), so even though there's no boundaries to the "universe", we think of it as one- this singularity is the universe. I'm not sure if u're following me but that just occured to me as I was typing up the reply ;)
haha, i dont follow you lol. ;D. the singularity is a event, the beginning of the big bang as far as we know. it is the point were we cant go back any further. it is the point were the laws break down and our calculations fail. it is a real problem in cosmology.
clarify your point if you can, i think i get what your saying, but i dont want to mis-interpret you.
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I follow you until you start saying that singularity is tied in with God, or maybe Im misreading your point. Other views that I have read about describe God as existing in a different dimention, and in no way tied to our reality except that he brought it into existence. This also explains why it is hard for us to imagine an infinite and eternal God, since he exists outside of time and matter. It's actually pretty confusing to me so maybe you could fill me in on this.
i think i answered the second part above, but it could be done better. he does exist outside of time and matter. and your right that is why we cant know god, or even fathom what it is. and he is not "IN" our universe pulling strings and spinning the world and doing miracles. he is in it, because we are in it. but he is outside as well just as his true reality.
so there are two realities, but one is the primary. the one we are in(our reality) and gods reality(outside). the outside one is the true reality, god is all there is, the creation is a part of god.
so my point about everything in the universe being one, was just to show that we are all the same thing, everything is part of the same thing. the ONE. physics shows this, buddism, hindu, theism also talks about this.
the problem with explaining it is i keep having to us words like we and us. but im trying to say that there is no we and us, just god.
the problem is seperation is so apparent and a part of life like time, i cant nor can anyone, describe something without referring to it.
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holy shit :o Appreciatte the LONG ass replies dude, I will read the above mroe carefully to comment on them, but before that I gotta get done with all this homework I got (I go to uni).
And before I go lemme just clarify what I was saying, I'm nto sure how much I will be able to do that considering I could be dead wrong about what Im saying.
Is this why we think of the everything as part of the "universe"? Singularity ties everything in existence to the universe (thinking of it as a whole rather than random things existing in non-existence), so even though there's no boundaries to the "universe", we think of it as one- this singularity is the universe. I'm not sure if u're following me but that just occured to me as I was typing up the reply ;)
What I mean to say is that we think of the "universe" (all matter that exists) as having bounds (boundary between existence and non-existence? Im not so sure). Because of the fact that the universe isnt eternal, and singularity tells us that all matter originates from a single infinestmally small point, it means that matter doesnt exist independently (duh? yes). Without singularity I dont know how you would define the universe, especially a universe having bounds.
Probably a very redundant explanation of something obvious to teh smart ones ;D
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there is and could be. but we couldnt comment on that. we dont know what infinite truly is nor eternal. we cannot know what it is like to be "outside" of time because we are immersed in this dimension. other dimensions with totally different properties may exist(string theory points to this) but we cannot intelligently comment on them. something we cannot experience or that is foreign is hard to argue, as ready examples are immenent.
what would you call these higher beings that create life? that can create organic materials? that would be some peoples definition of gods. the thing is, we cant know the characteristics of GOD. we as finite creatures cannot know infinite, we always place a boundary on it, trying to enclose something that is not enclosed. therefore, any attributes that we DO and DO NOT ascribe to god are wrong. he/she/it could very well have needs but thats not the depiction most major religions create. there could have been multiple creative creatures, but that just pushes the question back as to how they came,and if they are eternal and infinite then they are god, or gods by definition.
higher beings could have created us, a giant sausage could of, i dont know what god is, looks like etc etc. i know though from logic that something has to be infinite and eternal and create. the other alternative is that this universe is eternal by passing the creation(atheism), but science shows time had a beginning, and that the universe will end, hence not eternal.
So you agree there could be more gods, eternal entities whose purpose is to create, just tht it doesn't make sense for multiple gods to exist, therefore it is unlikely.
i contend we are god/gods but not god. ken wilber is a good philosopher on the GODHEAD and such. there is the ultimate perfection which is god, then there is the finite inperfection which is god manifest to experience himself. from my earlier posts you know my beleifs.so at the beginning of time(i dont know how to not use time, but it is wrong) god is all there is. this is logical, if god created, this implies he was before the creation. if you are all that exists, you cannot experience yourself, polarity(black/white) defines experience. so god created, or has to create to be god, to experience god, to exist. there has to be something other then god for god to know he is god. so god is perfect and infinite. how can you experience infinite, it is boundless. the answer is you cant. how can you experience perfection? you cant, its perfect. so god creates finite(our existence, and many others imo) to experience infinite. because if you know what it means to be finite, you then can experience your infite. god also created this imperfection to experience perfection, same logic as above.
This is gonna be long ;D There's several things that are unclear and seem arbitrary. So before matter and time existed, and only God was there, then how did God create time and matter if he couldn't experience himself? Or does it not require some sort of sentience for matter, let alone intelligent design, to exist?
Why can't perfection experience itself? What is perfection and imperfection? This is not understood as easily as finite vs infinite, so I'm still a little lost.
Again, appreciatte the time u put into the replies, and I really enjoy having this conv with someone who knows what he is talking about. Right now I gotta go workout so I'll be back posting a bit more later.
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So you agree there could be more gods, eternal entities whose purpose is to create, just tht it doesn't make sense for multiple gods to exist, therefore it is unlikely.
it is possible i cant really argue against it. although if your thinking the greek gods of thunder and lightning that is false. we know what creates thunder when it happens, it is a natural process that needs no god(S). Why are we here, what is the purpose? how did this begin? still unanswered and from science it seems like we cannot know, ever, hence the position of a god is still logical.
This is gonna be long ;D There's several things that are unclear and seem arbitrary. So before matter and time existed, and only God was there, then how did God create time and matter if he couldn't experience himself? Or does it not require some sort of sentience for matter, let alone intelligent design, to exist?
Why can't perfection experience itself? What is perfection and imperfection? This is not understood as easily as finite vs infinite, so I'm still a little lost.
Again, appreciatte the time u put into the replies, and I really enjoy having this conv with someone who knows what he is talking about. Right now I gotta go workout so I'll be back posting a bit more later.
im not sure if i follow you on the first response. if your asking how god creates then your geuss is as good as mine. there is no way anyone would know that unless of course they are god.
perfection is:
-Perfection is a state of flawlessness. Something is called perfect when it has no flaws, or when it comes very close to this ideal.
-the state of being without a flaw or defect
so i ask you how do you know or experience something? polarity. this world is full of polarity. would you know your male if no female existed? NO you wouldn't.
so perfection a state without flaw has no polarity. what is there to compare it too? imperfection expresses polarity, the fact that your not perfect shows you or allows you to know what you need to work on. perfection doesnt allow this. there is no polarity, how can there be, if there was then wouldnt that thing be imperfect?
imperfection is just the opposite of perfection, it has imperfections. that is, there is something wrong with it, something it can improve upon. how can perfect improve, how can it work on something. how can you experience something that has no polarity.pure perfection is impossible in this world becaue there are always improvments, always a polarity, a different thing you need to obtain.
hopefully that clears it up. but you cant conceptualize perfection, neither can i, it doesnt exist in this world. so its hard to fathom, just like nothing is hard to fathom.
and the only way to describe it is to use comparison(polarity agian). i dont know what infinite IS, but can form a working definition based on finite. we have to use polarity.
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HAIDER. here is a good read on my beleifs, or a part of my belief. there is a video also. great book.
http://www.thegodtheory.com/
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HAIDER. here is a good read on my beleifs, or a part of my belief. there is a video also. great book.
http://www.thegodtheory.com/
Thanks! ;D
I ordered it through ohiolink so I should get it in a week's time. Should be a fun reading. I plan on reading Dawkins's God delusion as well.
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God is centered around simple beliefs and speculation. There's no such thing as evidence for a god or anything supernatural.
You say I can't disprove it, but honestly you can't prove it. And proving it doesn't mean making shit up or assumptions.
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God is centered around simple beliefs and speculation. There's no such thing as evidence for a god or anything supernatural.
You say I can't disprove it, but honestly you can't prove it. And proving it doesn't mean making shit up or assumptions.
Not really Camel. There are many promises in the Bible that I have tested. One is tithing. It works. There is a ton of advice in my favorite book of the Bible (Proverbs). And I have seen way too many prayers answered with too many coincidences to not believe that something much greater than me is at work.
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Not really Camel. There are many promises in the Bible that I have tested. One is tithing. It works. There is a ton of advice in my favorite book of the Bible (Proverbs). And I have seen way too many prayers answered with too many coincidences to not believe that something much greater than me is at work.
That is interesting... So God will answer prayers for money?
I've seen too many prayers go unanswered in my life... maybe they didn't pay enough?
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That is interesting... So God will answer prayers for money?
I've seen too many prayers go unanswered in my life... maybe they didn't pay enough?
Tu you always get an answer. It's not always the answer you like. Sometimes the answer is "yes," sometimes "no," sometimes "wait." I often get "wait," and I hate that answer. :-\
Re tithing: it isn't about "prayers for money." It is about God promising that if you return the "first fruits" of your increase to Him, He will bless you so much so there won't be "room enough to receive it." I think this has to be taken together with other promises, guidelines, etc. Like the verse in Proverbs that says wealth gained by dishonesty will be diminished. So, for example, I doubt a drug dealer gets a ROI from his tithe money. :) But I have experienced numerous financial blessing that I attribute directly to returning tithe. I've heard countless stories from others too. You should try it.
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Tu you always get an answer. It's not always the answer you like. Sometimes the answer is "yes," sometimes "no," sometimes "wait." I often get "wait," and I hate that answer. :-\
Re tithing: it isn't about "prayers for money." It is about God promising that if you return the "first fruits" of your increase to Him, He will bless you so much so there won't be "room enough to receive it." I think this has to be taken together with other promises, guidelines, etc. Like the verse in Proverbs that says wealth gained by dishonesty will be diminished. So, for example, I doubt a drug dealer gets a ROI from his tithe money. :) But I have experienced numerous financial blessing that I attribute directly to returning tithe. I've heard countless stories from others too. You should try it.
Nah... Thanks though... I do ok without it.
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True Adonis as per the debate i will refrain from the personal attacks if you do.
ill let you start. what arguments are there against the exsistence of a god, not a christian god, not a islamic god. a deity, a cosmic intelligence. why is secular humanism correct.
Personally, I like to think that there may be a god out there, but I try not to dwell on it because there really is no proof out there. My philosophy on God is that if there is one then great, and if not I can handle that, too. I think that we focus way too much on who is right about the subject and who is a brainwashed douche bag, but I'm just going to go on hoping that there is one and try to be a good person until I die because only then will I truly know.
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Thanks! ;D
I ordered it through ohiolink so I should get it in a week's time. Should be a fun reading. I plan on reading Dawkins's God delusion as well.
HAIDER!! buy wonder of the world by abraham varghese. the best book ever written on god and science, and philosophy.
it converted antony flew the worlds leading atheist, its really an amazing book. that and the god theory are very good.
let me know what you think of the god delusion, and any arguments you like.
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God is centered around simple beliefs and speculation. There's no such thing as evidence for a god or anything supernatural.
You say I can't disprove it, but honestly you can't prove it. And proving it doesn't mean making shit up or assumptions.
we will never truly know how everything got here or how or why. even if science did explain every little detail it wouldn't be enough, you would still have to ask the ultimate question, why is there anything at all?
also in most of the theories, the exsistence of the universe is describe by something without, which opens up many paradoxes we cant access the answer to, by virtue of being within the universe. string theory, inflation, loop quantum gravity,GUT etc could all be right. but life is a huge fucking mystery and im just trying to figure it out best i can. i see it as central in importance in life. or you could not worry about it, but then agian, maybe thats missing the point.
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Not really Camel. There are many promises in the Bible that I have tested. One is tithing. It works. There is a ton of advice in my favorite book of the Bible (Proverbs). And I have seen way too many prayers answered with too many coincidences to not believe that something much greater than me is at work.
Oh brother... ::)
You want to bring forth credible evidence and prayers don't cut it.
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Oh brother... ::)
You want to bring forth credible evidence and prayers don't cut it.
I just did. My story. If you're asking for a video, it doesn't exist. I'm talking about my personal experiences. They have convinced me.
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That is interesting... So God will answer prayers for money?
I've seen too many prayers go unanswered in my life... maybe they didn't pay enough?
If it is in God's will, yes.
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If it is in God's will, yes.
So it's God's will plus money... I see.
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So it's God's will plus money... I see.
no matter how much you pray god wont answer them. your life is decided by you, seperation between us and god is needed.
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HAIDER!! buy wonder of the world by abraham varghese. the best book ever written on god and science, and philosophy.
it converted antony flew the worlds leading atheist, its really an amazing book. that and the god theory are very good.
let me know what you think of the god delusion, and any arguments you like.
Thanks for the info, I'm currently reading through God theory every cahnce I get with the tight school schedule. Right now much of it seems pretty abstract (aka pulling things out os his arse ;D) but it makes sense and I'm enjoying reaidng it quite a bit. Prolly by next friday I should be done with the book, but I suspect I'll be done earlier than that (Once I start reaidng it I have to stop myself so I can do homework instead, lol).
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we will never truly know how everything got here or how or why. even if science did explain every little detail it wouldn't be enough, you would still have to ask the ultimate question, why is there anything at all?
also in most of the theories, the exsistence of the universe is describe by something without, which opens up many paradoxes we cant access the answer to, by virtue of being within the universe. string theory, inflation, loop quantum gravity,GUT etc could all be right. but life is a huge fucking mystery and im just trying to figure it out best i can. i see it as central in importance in life. or you could not worry about it, but then agian, maybe thats missing the point.
Something without? In any place where we can't seem to fill with science, instead we fill with a god. ::) This arguement doesn't work as then you would have to tell me who created god and who created the creator of god. Just because we don't understand certain things doesn't mean we have to fill the vacancies with the idea of some supernatural being.
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Something without? In any place where we can't seem to fill with science, instead we fill with a god. ::) This arguement doesn't work as then you would have to tell me who created god and who created the creator of god. Just because we don't understand certain things doesn't mean we have to fill the vacancies with the idea of some supernatural being.
i dont think you understand what i wrote. something without means, something not within or something other then the unverse to describe the existence of the universe. im not getting back in to the reasons i beleive it to be god. but, due to the theory of relativity, you dont have access from this universe to others, nor to anything "outside" so this is a gap that will always remain void. we wont know why, or how to an extent. quantum gravity, when figured out may change this.
the who created god argument has already been answered by me.
god needs no creator, nor does a universe without the dimension of time as we know it. before only exists because time does, we know time had a beginning, hence there never was a before the big bang. its impossible to grasp and full of paradoxes but it is proven by science, and logic.
so if you assume the big bang was the start, its out of nothing, or it always existed in the conditions it had. and then for no reason the conditions changed. the only thing that can change conditions when they are set or remain the same is intelligence.
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God will give you what you need...not always what you want.
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God will give you what you need...not always what you want.
If that's true than all the poor Christians in the world wouldn't starve. Some to death. ::)
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If that's true than all the poor Christians in the world wouldn't starve. Some to death. ::)
exactly, this argument has proven that god does not give you what you want.
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Or what you need for that matter...
What does God give you?
To people that believe in God, a HOPE that there is something other than the miserable lives that they are living today. Of course if they had a great job, home and family, with plenty of time to spend with them and still enough time to do the activities they enjoyed, they would still feel that it's NOTHING till they share the "afterlife" with God and Jesus. Hopefully the people they hate aren't there too!
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Or what you need for that matter...
What does God give you?
nothing, i am god literally.
he doesnt have any concern with me, in so far as he cares about himself.
im not a theologian per se...
i beleive god exists to experience himself and he is the only thing that exists, including us.
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To people that believe in God, a HOPE that there is something other than the miserable lives that they are living today. Of course if they had a great job, home and family, with plenty of time to spend with them and still enough time to do the activities they enjoyed, they would still feel that it's NOTHING till they share the "afterlife" with God and Jesus. Hopefully the people they hate aren't there too!
If God doesn't exist then God isn't giving them that hope. It's simply their belief that is giving them hope.
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If God doesn't exist then God isn't giving them that hope. It's simply their belief that is giving them hope.
I agree. But just like that person who hopes to have it all, they keep playing that lottery.