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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: ribonucleic on February 06, 2007, 12:33:54 PM
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Video of U.S. friendly fire unleashes storm in UK
LONDON (Reuters) - U.S. and British officials denied trying to bury details of a "friendly fire" incident on Tuesday when a cockpit video was leaked in which U.S. pilots are heard weeping after mistakenly killing a British soldier in Iraq.
A British coroner's inquest into the death of Lance Corporal Matty Hull has reignited questions over whether the allies did enough to shield troops from friendly fire -- and whether both countries wanted to keep the details hidden.
"I'm going to be sick," one pilot in an A-10 attack jet can be heard saying when he realizes he has opened fire on a friendly convoy. "We're in jail, dude."
Another pilot is later heard weeping: "I'm dead."
Hull was killed when his convoy of light British tanks was strafed by American A-10 attack jets during the second week of the 2003 invasion that toppled
Saddam Hussein.
Coroner Andrew Walker suspended his probe last week after he learned that there was a cockpit video which he had not been allowed to use or to show the family.
Washington had given the video to British authorities but refused to allow it to be shown to the coroner, saying it might contain security secrets. The British government denied hiding it but said it could not release it without U.S. permission.
After the video was shown all day on UK television, a U.S. defense official said it could now form part of the inquest.
"We have authorized the UK Ministry of Defense to display the full video in camera to the coroner and the family in the presence of a Ministry of Defense authority," a
Pentagon official said on condition of anonymity.
Washington said its own investigation exonerated the pilots.
"The investigators determined that the pilots followed the procedures and processes for engaging targets," Defense Department spokesman Bryan Whitman said.
But U.S. officials have refused British requests to send the pilots to travel to Britain to testify in the inquest.
Hull's widow said she was glad the video was now public.
"I would have preferred to hear the evidence from the U.S. pilots themselves. However, they cannot be compelled to come and they have not come voluntarily. The video is therefore vital evidence and must be shown," Susan Hull said in a statement.
"After years of being told that it did not exist or was secret I feel that it was right not to give up hope."
Friendly fire has been a burning issue for both countries since the first
Gulf War in 1991, when nine British servicemen were killed in a mistaken attack by U.S. aircraft.
Precautions have since been taken -- orange panels were fitted to allied vehicles to alert pilots during the 2003 invasion. The pilots on the tape can be heard concluding the panels were "orange rocket launchers" before opening fire.
In Washington, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said reports of the transcripts of the incident showed a "clear expression of remorse" from those involved.
"These people immediately understood that this just was a terrible, terrible mistake and that they felt an immediate remorse for what happened," McCormack told reporters.
(Additional reporting by Sophie Walker in Jerusalem, Kate Kelland in London and Andrew Gray and Sue Pleming in Washington)
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Friendly fire is a unfortunate fact of war.
No matter how many mechanisms are in place it will always happen.
A war like this shuold have never happened in the first place anyway.
Unfortunate.
BTW, Rib, just to get an idea of where you stand on issues simlar to these did you support a the war in afghanistan after 9/11?
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Friendly fire is a unfortunate fact of war.
No matter how many mechanisms are in place it will always happen.
A war like this shuold have never happened in the first place anyway.
Unfortunate.
BTW, Rib, just to get an idea of where you stand on issues simlar to these did you support a the war in afghanistan after 9/11?
The "never learn" part was referring to the cover-up - not the friendly fire. You'd think after the Pat Tillman fiasco blew up in their faces... ah, who am I kidding? Cover-ups are intrinsic to their institutional culture.
I was reflexively skeptical about Afghanistan. But I figured if it put the Taliban out of business and nabbed bin Laden [I accepted the standard line on 9/11 back then], it might actually be the lesser of two evils.
Now at this late date in history, I feel justified in considering any deployment of US troops overseas as guilty until proven innocent.
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oh ok,
You know that cover up actually had value...... imagine if it was reported when it happened.
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God forbid people actually hear the truth. ::)
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If all poeple knew the truth of war, there would never be any wars.
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If all poeple knew the truth of war, there would never be any wars.
yeah. That'd be terrible.
Funny how you can write something so clear and true and valuable ahd have no clue.
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yeah. That'd be terrible.
Funny how you can write something so clear and true and valuable ahd have no clue.
did you just insult me? ;D ???
I figure i should give you the benefit of the doubt before jump to conclusions and unload a little.
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LOL
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did you just insult me? ;D ???
You just prescribed as truth as the solution to war. It's incredibly clear. If every person in the US knew the motives for war (energy) and the horrors of war (shredded civilians), we wouldn't be in 2, almost 3 wars at the moment.
Perhaps if everyone in every nation knew what war was really like, they'd stop listening to the rosy scenarios presented by their TVs.
Perhaps one day the internet will be that medium that people will use to get the facts instead of taking everything NBC/GE munitions division says at face value.
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Not an insult at all - you said something very insightful!
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You just prescribed as truth as the solution to war. It's incredibly clear. If every person in the US knew the motives for war (energy) and the horrors of war (shredded civilians), we wouldn't be in 2, almost 3 wars at the moment.
Perhaps if everyone in every nation knew what war was really like, they'd stop listening to the rosy scenarios presented by their TVs.
Perhaps one day the internet will be that medium that people will use to get the facts instead of taking everything NBC/GE munitions division says at face value.
Ok, i thought the part of:
ahd have no clue.
was me telling i had no clue.
BTW:
I firmly believe what you wrote about the horrors of war.
Oddly enough, without actually being in a war, i think the first 30 mintues of "Saving Private Ryan" delivers that message very well.
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no - i meant that it sounded like you casually wrote that comment. when i read it, it summarized precisely what the internet is doing - spreading the horrors of war reality.
good stuff.
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You just prescribed as truth as the solution to war. It's incredibly clear. If every person in the US knew the motives for war (energy) and the horrors of war (shredded civilians), we wouldn't be in 2, almost 3 wars at the moment.
Perhaps if everyone in every nation knew what war was really like, they'd stop listening to the rosy scenarios presented by their TVs.
Perhaps one day the internet will be that medium that people will use to get the facts instead of taking everything NBC/GE munitions division says at face value.
I don't know if "rosy scenarios presented by their TVs" is correct. Of course news broadcasts don't show the true horror of war but I think most people are aware enough to realize that war is an horrific thing.
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I don't know if "rosy scenarios presented by their TVs" is correct. Of course news broadcasts don't show the true horror of war but I think most people are aware enough to realize that war is an horrific thing.
I don't think, and i'm speaking from a complete lack of experience, that there is any way to relate the true horror of war without being in one.
Saving Private Ryan did a good job however.
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I don't know if "rosy scenarios presented by their TVs" is correct. Of course news broadcasts don't show the true horror of war but I think most people are aware enough to realize that war is an horrific thing.
For every 30 seconds of file footage of missiles launching, they should show 30 seconds of what happens when they land. Even if only 30 seconds a night, Americans had to think about that, war support might not be there. I remember how clear and vivid the coverage was of Shock and Awe. The next day though, they didn't cover the hospitals that well.
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I don't think, and i'm speaking from a complete lack of experience, that there is any way to relate the true horror of war without being in one.
Saving Private Ryan did a good job however.
I agree it would be nearly impossible to convey the horror without actually being in the middle of it because the viewers life isn't on the line and because the sites and smells and sounds are distant and sheltered via the TV. Also because any fatalities or casualties aren't people the viewers would know or have any relationship to.
I agree, Saving Private Ryan was excellent and incredibly moving. It took me a few days to get over it.
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For every 30 seconds of file footage of missiles launching, they should show 30 seconds of what happens when they land. Even if only 30 seconds a night, Americans had to think about that, war support might not be there. I remember how clear and vivid the coverage was of Shock and Awe. The next day though, they didn't cover the hospitals that well.
This is true but do you think showing the true savagery of war to the general public would serve any real purpose? There are times when War is inevitable and needed. I'm not saying this war is don't get me wrong but I believe we were justified in going into Afghanistan.
Would it have served any purpose for us to see pictures of blown apart bodies and leveled buildings and smoking buildings with body parts and blood staining the rubble?
I actually think it would be counterproductive.
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if every kid in america knew from age 10 on, that war meant charred bodies, double amputees, and blind people... when these kids came into power, their FIRST avenue in any conflict would be diplomacy- debate and negotiation.
Did Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld exhaust every diplomatic road before invading iraq?
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if every kid in america knew from age 10 on, that war meant charred bodies, double amputees, and blind people... when these kids came into power, their FIRST avenue in any conflict would be diplomacy- debate and negotiation.
Did Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld exhaust every diplomatic road before invading iraq?
How do you know that knowledge wouldn't desensitize children to the violence and gore? I see it with my nephews, the things they see don't shock them anymore.
My opinion is that War was the point in Iraq, diplomacy wasn't. I'm sure there are people that will argue that we exhausted all diplomatic avenues but who really knows? In essence it's all conjecture at this point unless we have the testimony of someone that was in the inner circle during that period.
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How do you know that knowledge wouldn't desensitize children to the violence and gore? I see it with my nephews, the things they see don't shock them anymore.
My opinion is that War was the point in Iraq, diplomacy wasn't. I'm sure there are people that will argue that we exhausted all diplomatic avenues but who really knows? In essence it's all conjecture at this point unless we have the testimony of someone that was in the inner circle during that period.
Sadaadm surrendered with 24 hours on the clock, on that 48-hour deadline. We responded by dropping aJDAM into that building. Remember that one shot before the shock/awe started? ;)
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Sadaadm surrendered with 24 hours on the clock, on that 48-hour deadline. We responded by dropping aJDAM into that building. Remember that one shot before the shock/awe started? ;)
Yes, I remember that he surrendered before the deadline. As I said, I think War was the point or perhaps Military Action is a better way to word it. Military Action was the point.
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yeah. That'd be terrible.
Funny how you can write something so clear and true and valuable ahd have no clue.
you really think if there had never been any wars the world would be better off? no WWI, WWII, Korea, Civil etc...
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if every kid in america knew from age 10 on, that war meant charred bodies, double amputees, and blind people... when these kids came into power, their FIRST avenue in any conflict would be diplomacy- debate and negotiation.
Did Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld exhaust every diplomatic road before invading iraq?
Their second action would be learning the muslim religion
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you really think if there had never been any wars the world would be better off? no WWI, WWII, Korea, Civil etc...
I actually do. The abillity for a world not to have wars would also come with the ability not to allow evil dictators to come into power.
How many wars have been started based on fear or war?
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you really think if there had never been any wars the world would be better off? no WWI, WWII, Korea, Civil etc...
I don't know. If everyone in Germany knew just how bloody war was, would the citizenry have allowed Hitler's bullshit? if everyone in Japan knew the horrors of the A-bomb, would they have attacked Pearl harbor? If every American kid knew what the streets of baghdad were really like, would Bush have 35-48k new troops to send this year?
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I actually do. The abillity for a world not to have wars would also come with the ability not to allow evil dictators to come into power.
How many wars have been started based on fear or war?
Human/Animal nature is to fight. I don't get you passivists
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I actually do. The abillity for a world not to have wars would also come with the ability not to allow evil dictators to come into power.
How many wars have been started based on fear or war?
Wars start for resource greed. Fear is used to get the masses to support it, volunteer for it, pay for it, etc. Without 9/11, there is no fear and anger to get us into afghanistan. Without WMD fear, there is no iraqi invasion. Both were actually done for resource greed by a few, and both were funded with money and lives from the scared masses.
Who made us scared? The greedy few, of course.
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Human/Animal nature is to fight. I don't get you passivists
No. human nature is to get yours and protect yours.
Fearmongering makes people think you have to war to 'protect yours'.
I support 'just' wars. Not bullshit wars. Passivist? you're a sucker.
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I don't know. If everyone in Germany knew just how bloody war was, would the citizenry have allowed Hitler's bullshit? if everyone in Japan knew the horrors of the A-bomb, would they have attacked Pearl harbor? If every American kid knew what the streets of baghdad were really like, would Bush have 35-48k new troops to send this year?
You truly think the kids enlisting have no idea how bad it can be in Iraq? holy shit you libs do think the military is dumb. And all along I blamed Kerry for trying to speak for your whole party!!! He was being truthful
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You truly think the kids enlisting have no idea how bad it can be in Iraq?
Did you know exactly how bad it would be before you enlisted?
Also, how the hell can an 18-year old who doesn't have cable or watch the news have ANY idea what's happening in Iraq before enlisting?
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Did you know exactly how bad it would be before you enlisted?
Also, how the hell can an 18-year old who doesn't have cable or watch the news have ANY idea what's happening in Iraq before enlisting?
http://www.cnn.com/
They post about a picture/story a day of strictly bad news in Iraq.
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Did you know exactly how bad it would be before you enlisted?
Also, how the hell can an 18-year old who doesn't have cable or watch the news have ANY idea what's happening in Iraq before enlisting?
No I didn't know how bad it would be...I thought it would be like GI Joe, what a crack head....and how many 18 year olds don't have cable or watch the news? There isn't a human alive that doesn't know the consequence of war, crazy how History works. Just not all of us are pussies like yourself and we realize if we had 300,000,000 of you we would be speaking german, or japanese. That is why we luckily have men in this country. Guys like you are the reason more women are turing lez/bi. Women truly want a MAN, not some metrosexual, pasifist, sleep with his teddy bear, not willing to fight for his own rights puss...Don't worry though, I'm here. You love to spout off at the mouth and make treasonist accusations about your government but you wouldn't dare stand up and fight next to me. I wish they would bring back the draft....Canada can have women like you
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http://www.cnn.com/
They post about a picture/story a day of strictly bad news in Iraq.
When they start doing daily stories of amputee soldiers, PTSD suicides, and military families scraping by to survive, get back to us.
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http://www.cnn.com/
They post about a picture/story a day of strictly bad news in Iraq.
BB, are you seriously telling us that cnn.com's home page story about iraq gives the public a full view of what's going on?
you're naive, man.
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No I didn't know how bad it would be...I thought it would be like GI Joe, what a crack head....and how many 18 year olds don't have cable or watch the news? There isn't a human alive that doesn't know the consequence of war, crazy how History works. Just not all of us are pussies like yourself and we realize if we had 300,000,000 of you we would be speaking german, or japanese. That is why we luckily have men in this country. Guys like you are the reason more women are turing lez/bi. Women truly want a MAN, not some metrosexual, pasifist, sleep with his teddy bear, not willing to fight for his own rights puss...Don't worry though, I'm here. You love to spout off at the mouth and make treasonist accusations about your government but you wouldn't dare stand up and fight next to me. I wish they would bring back the draft....Canada can have women like you
You call me a commie and a woman?
You're a fine soldier, man. you keep on making us look good, okay?
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You call me a commie and a woman?
You're a fine soldier, man. you keep on making us look good, okay?
Actually I called Rivo a commie, I implied that you would be the first across the border the minute they called your number in a draft. I get tired of losers like you two abusing your rights and would never dare fight for them yourself. You don't even realize the military is the SOLE reason you have the 1st ammendment
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BB, are you seriously telling us that cnn.com's home page story about iraq gives the public a full view of what's going on?
you're naive, man.
Oh, so now it's a "full view." The post I responded to said "ANY idea."
"Also, how the hell can an 18-year old who doesn't have cable or watch the news have ANY idea what's happening in Iraq before enlisting?"
Make up your mind.
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I don't know. If everyone in Germany knew just how bloody war was, would the citizenry have allowed Hitler's bullshit? if everyone in Japan knew the horrors of the A-bomb, would they have attacked Pearl harbor? If every American kid knew what the streets of baghdad were really like, would Bush have 35-48k new troops to send this year?
Do you think when these kids are here training we tell them it is going to be like Disney land? Hell no, they fall asleep in my class, I throw a marker at them, wake them up and show the pics of the mortar attack that landed 3 tents down from me...show them the pictures of the guy that lost his leg because he didn't build the standoff the way I taught him earlier that week...believe me we let these kids know what they are in for
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No I didn't know how bad it would be...I thought it would be like GI Joe, what a crack head....and how many 18 year olds don't have cable or watch the news? There isn't a human alive that doesn't know the consequence of war, crazy how History works. Just not all of us are pussies like yourself and we realize if we had 300,000,000 of you we would be speaking german, or japanese. That is why we luckily have men in this country. Guys like you are the reason more women are turing lez/bi. Women truly want a MAN, not some metrosexual, pasifist, sleep with his teddy bear, not willing to fight for his own rights puss...Don't worry though, I'm here. You love to spout off at the mouth and make treasonist accusations about your government but you wouldn't dare stand up and fight next to me. I wish they would bring back the draft....Canada can have women like you
preach on MM69!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
you're a good man! keep up the good work.
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You don't even realize the military is the SOLE reason you have the 1st ammendment
If you are referring to the revolutionary army or the soldiers who fought in 1812, I'd agree with you.
In the 190 years since then, not so much.
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You call me a commie and a woman?
You're a fine soldier, man. you keep on making us look good, okay?
he gives you the very freedom you take for granted and you throw insults?
you're not even worthy to shine his boots!
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If you are referring to the revolutionary army or the soldiers who fought in 1812, I'd agree with you.
In the 190 years since then, not so much.
are you fucking serious? you think we would still be America if we had zero military?
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If you are referring to the revolutionary army or the soldiers who fought in 1812, I'd agree with you.
In the 190 years since then, not so much.
Ya mean the ones who got their asses kicked by us Canadians? :)
(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/proud_wp.gif)
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he gives you the very freedom you take for granted and you throw insults?
you're not even worthy to shine his boots!
Actually, he insulted me. I didn't fire back. he called me a woman. I said he was a fine soldier.
And "he gives me freedom"? I don't know where to begin with what is wrong with that sentence. I don't want to disrespect soldiers so I will stop now. You go ahead and keep throwing rocks, though.
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. I don't want to disrespect soldiers so I will stop now.
too late, you've already done it
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Actually, he insulted me. I didn't fire back. he called me a woman. I said he was a fine soldier.
And "he gives me freedom"? I don't know where to begin with what is wrong with that sentence. I don't want to disrespect soldiers so I will stop now. You go ahead and keep throwing rocks, though.
Well when you consider how badly 'testosterone induced brain damaged' has mucked up the world,
...from my perspective, i'd say being called a woman is actually a compliment. :)
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Actually, he insulted me. I didn't fire back. he called me a woman. I said he was a fine soldier.
And "he gives me freedom"? I don't know where to begin with what is wrong with that sentence. I don't want to disrespect soldiers so I will stop now. You go ahead and keep throwing rocks, though.
You are damn right I give you freedom, granted I have help from a few friends but without us you would just be a virgin without a way to voice your opinion. With us you are just a virgin
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he gives you the very freedom you take for granted and you throw insults?
you're not even worthy to shine his boots!
lol. :D Hey a woman taught me how to spit shine my boots when I was in the Army. You could see your reflection when I finished.
Ah the memories. . . .
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I would love to chat more but unlike Ribo and 240 I have a life. You guys keep researching your CTs. I'll be back sometime.
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Why 240 is defending this asshole I will never know. My old man was a pilot. MY Uncle was in the 7th Cav..both Vietnam vets. My dads cousin...in effect another uncle walked out of the Chosin with Chesty Puller. I had relatives in German POW camps and another great Uncle who was in the Waffen SS and captured at Kursk. MY whole family for generations has severed somewhere. Hell I had another uncle who served in Vietnam with the Austrailian Army. I knew very well what I was getting into. The libs basically think anybody who serves is an idiot or a sheep. What they don't realize is we who serve are better they they are. We protect them from the real world so they can continue to spew BS about how if the big bad military would just not hurt anybody we'd all be ok. Well RIBO I never went anywhere without orders so its civilians..libs and repubs that sent me to the Balkans, Iraq, and Afghanistan. We don't get to decide where we go or what we do. We just do it. Its something u could never ever understand. Besides warfare as a whole is what man is best at. We have been killing each other very successfully for thousands of years. People with appeasement attitudes get rolled the 'f' over.
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i never defended that statement.