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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: militarymuscle69 on March 23, 2007, 11:08:01 AM

Title: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 23, 2007, 11:08:01 AM
Conversation from the other day about Bush's response to Katrina

Enigma: "MM....the guard should have been posted on the storm perimeter, waiting to rush food and water in. No excuses for the feds on that.

MM69: I'll concede that, but who controls the guard




What would people answer...
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: Hugo Chavez on March 23, 2007, 11:11:22 AM
How much have you had to drink today :-\
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: Cavalier22 on March 23, 2007, 11:15:18 AM
at the end of the day, the local govt, the state govt, and the people themselves need to take responsibility.   the governor refused bush's request for aid days before Katrina broke but people never seem to remember that.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: Eyeball Chambers on March 23, 2007, 11:17:02 AM
As soon as a Natural Disaster hits more than one State it's a responsibility of the Federal Government.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 23, 2007, 11:17:59 AM
As soon as a Natural Disaster hits more than one State it's a responsibility of the Federal Government.

the federal government doesn't have that power.....
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: 240 is Back on March 23, 2007, 11:27:42 AM
the federal government doesn't have that power.....

Hi, FEMA.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: 240 is Back on March 23, 2007, 11:29:00 AM
the federal government doesn't have that power.....

Federal Emergency Management Agency

Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 23, 2007, 11:39:18 AM
Federal Emergency Management Agency



Now FEMA controls the guard?
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: 240 is Back on March 23, 2007, 11:43:21 AM
Now FEMA controls the guard?

Ben: As soon as a Natural Disaster hits more than one State it's a responsibility of the Federal Government.

You: the federal government doesn't have that power.....

I then interjected with FEMA, which is a federeal agency that coordinates efforts with state and local level agencies and their resources to solve crisii. 

mm69, you're obviously very embarassed about your oil misstep yesterday, and its' very clear I'm in your head.  Settle down dude.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 23, 2007, 11:46:00 AM
Ben: As soon as a Natural Disaster hits more than one State it's a responsibility of the Federal Government.

You: the federal government doesn't have that power.....

I then interjected with FEMA, which is a federeal agency that coordinates efforts with state and local level agencies and their resources to solve crisii. 

mm69, you're obviously very embarassed about your oil misstep yesterday, and its' very clear I'm in your head.  Settle down dude.

MM69: I'll concede that, but who controls the guard

Ben: As soon as a Natural Disaster hits more than one State it's a responsibility of the Federal Government.

MM69: the federal government doesn't have that power.....


Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 23, 2007, 11:47:25 AM
so 240 what happened to your claim that the Pres runs the guard, that bill didn't get passed...so you clearly didn't know who controlled the guard....Hmmm and I thought it was the tense of my question that confused you....
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: 240 is Back on March 23, 2007, 11:50:08 AM
so 240 what happened to your claim that the Pres runs the guard, that bill didn't get passed...so you clearly didn't know who controlled the guard....Hmmm and I thought it was the tense of my question that confused you....

this morning you agreed that bush had the power NOW, but that state had it THEN.

So were you wrong this morning and right now?
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 23, 2007, 11:52:45 AM
this morning you agreed that bush had the power NOW, but that state had it THEN.

So were you wrong this morning and right now?

LOL I never said that Bush had power...hence the reason I researched it..so now you are going to try and spin this to me...come on Pussy admit you were wrong and then lied about being confused by the "tense" of my question...
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: 240 is Back on March 23, 2007, 11:58:33 AM
LOL I never said that Bush had power...hence the reason I researched it..so now you are going to try and spin this to me...come on Pussy admit you were wrong and then lied about being confused by the "tense" of my question...

Ironic that you call me a pussy.

You must know pussy.  You know math?

Perhaps you can explain why 130,000 is not greater than 2,000.









Pussy.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 23, 2007, 12:00:00 PM
Ironic that you call me a pussy.

You must know pussy.  You know math?

Perhaps you can explain why 130,000 is not greater than 2,000.









Pussy.

How are you trying to change the subject now?
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: 240 is Back on March 23, 2007, 12:18:38 PM
man, this issue is old.  i didn't know the 'bush taking contorl of the guard' issue was still in the pipeline.  i definitely knew that state ran it during katrina.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 23, 2007, 12:24:06 PM
man, this issue is old.  i didn't know the 'bush taking contorl of the guard' issue was still in the pipeline.  i definitely knew that state ran it during katrina.

works for me
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: Dos Equis on March 23, 2007, 03:51:21 PM
Conversation from the other day about Bush's response to Katrina

Enigma: "MM....the guard should have been posted on the storm perimeter, waiting to rush food and water in. No excuses for the feds on that.

MM69: I'll concede that, but who controls the guard




What would people answer...

Sounds like 240 didn't fare too well.  I guess if you're to attack someone and call them stupid, while claiming to know "the facts," you better actually have the facts straight. 
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: Tre on March 23, 2007, 03:57:29 PM
There was a lot of bureaucratic BS during that crisis, but the reports of the STATE police not allowing aid trucks to pass are true, well...that still begs the question of why the federal authorities didn't step in and see to it that people got fresh water to drink. 

If we were talking about a Boy Scout jamboree in a dire emergency, do you think the water would've gotten to the  people who needed it?

Kids dying in Iraq to make Bush's friends rich beyond belief (all being financed by the American people, of course) and we can't deliver water to an American city??

I told them that their best move would've been to declare themselves a part of a foreign country and then the aid would've been there in 24 hours or less.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: OzmO on March 23, 2007, 05:06:15 PM
Conversation from the other day about Bush's response to Katrina

Enigma: "MM....the guard should have been posted on the storm perimeter, waiting to rush food and water in. No excuses for the feds on that.

MM69: I'll concede that, but who controls the guard




What would people answer...

As far as i can tell: YES, but he has to declare Marshall law first.

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Bush_Seeks_New_Power_Over_Guard_999.html

the item about the Bush controlling the guard is part of the 2007 defense authorization bill

wikapedia reports it singed by BUSH in October of 2006

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.R._5122_(2006)

So we are arguing over "tense" now  Grin

I pitty the fool trying to mess with my "tense"!   Kiss
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: The Enigma on March 23, 2007, 06:49:03 PM
the federal government doesn't have that power.....

The federal government doesn't have the power??

Who do you suppose is sending our "National Guard" troops to Iraq........the Governors??


Please........don't be silly.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: Wombat on March 23, 2007, 09:31:17 PM
Bush will declare Marshall Law and then you will have your answer..Its coming
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: 240 is Back on March 23, 2007, 09:42:01 PM
I don't think so. 

I know there is always that option available to him if things got messy here, but the higher powers would lose a shitload of money.  Our already teetering economy and RE market would collapse.  And Bush/cheney would stop earning, personally. 

I remember reading these same things 15 years ago.  I think the threat is always there, but the economy would just collapse and tax dollars would end since people would stop going to work. 

Now, if a rummy or silverstein deathbed confession video were to hit youtube and the world suddenly found out about 911 and people got violent, then yes, it would happen.  But I think opportunisitic senators who knew all along would get in front of it and lead the charge for the show trials, appeasing the masses as they watched the fall guys on CourtTV.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: G o a t b o y on March 23, 2007, 09:51:16 PM
The federal government doesn't have the power??

Who do you suppose is sending our "National Guard" troops to Iraq........the Governors??


Please........don't be silly.


National guard troops can be "federalized" (made part of the regular army under federal control), but once you do that, you can't use them for law enforcement domestically due to posse comatatus.

National Guard troops responding to disasters within the United States are under the control of state governors, not the President. 
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: OzmO on March 24, 2007, 09:27:12 AM

National guard troops can be "federalized" (made part of the regular army under federal control), but once you do that, you can't use them for law enforcement domestically due to posse comatatus.

National Guard troops responding to disasters within the United States are under the control of state governors, not the President. 

the governors control can be taken away with one act:  Marshall Law.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: headhuntersix on March 24, 2007, 09:45:52 AM
UNcle sam cannot take control of the guard or reserves overnight, atleast in response to a disaster like that. Its not about Bush saying i control the troops its abouit the bean counters and where the cash comes from. The process is very complicated. i worked with this crap for two years ina previous assignment. We delt with emergencies just like this. The military responded as quickly as the process allows.   
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 26, 2007, 05:38:31 AM
The federal government doesn't have the power??

Who do you suppose is sending our "National Guard" troops to Iraq........the Governors??


Please........don't be silly.

I'm sure a military man such as yourself realizes that the guard has to be activated before going to Iraq...and only the troops actually deploying are activated. Not the whole guard...now don't be silly
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: The Enigma on March 26, 2007, 05:42:52 AM
I'm sure a military man such as yourself realizes that the guard has to be activated before going to Iraq...and only the troops actually deploying are activated. Not the whole guard...now don't be silly


True, but WHO activated us?

Who continues to use the "stop loss"?
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 26, 2007, 06:00:33 AM

True, but WHO activated us?

Who continues to use the "stop loss"?

What stop loss? We don't have one in the Air Force, and my neighbor, an army e-8 just retired last month with 13 other soldiers in his ceremony...

I know bush activated you, but we were talking about Katrina. At that time since the LA guard wasn't activated the control fell to the governor and Adjutant General.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: The Enigma on March 26, 2007, 06:20:24 AM

I know bush activated you, but we were talking about Katrina. 


Sorry, I misunderstood the conversation.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: 240 is Back on March 26, 2007, 06:26:50 AM
So um, since state govs contorl the nat'l guard...

If one of them decided to pull his states' men from Iraq, could he?

And if so, why have none?
And if not, do they really control them?
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 26, 2007, 06:43:11 AM
So um, since state govs contorl the nat'l guard...

If one of them decided to pull his states' men from Iraq, could he?

And if so, why have none?
And if not, do they really control them?

They only control them until the president activates them in a time of war and then they report to the commading General of the District of Columbia National guard. The only question I have on that is we never had a declaration of war did we? If that is the case I'm not 100% sure on what it takes to activate the guard. Let emlook deeper into the Regs
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: 240 is Back on March 26, 2007, 07:22:20 AM
They only control them until the president activates them in a time of war and then they report to the commading General of the District of Columbia National guard. The only question I have on that is we never had a declaration of war did we? If that is the case I'm not 100% sure on what it takes to activate the guard. Let emlook deeper into the Regs

bottom line is that officially, state controls them.  But Bush does what the hell he wants, and they were, and are, going over there no matter what the staties want.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 26, 2007, 07:24:23 AM
bottom line is that officially, state controls them.  But Bush does what the hell he wants, and they were, and are, going over there no matter what the staties want.

That is the way the constitution wrote it.....George Washington had to activae the guard when he was president...It has happened since day 1
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: 240 is Back on March 26, 2007, 07:26:37 AM
in that case, what was the bill that Bush was pushing for, to gain control?  Simply to own the guard WITHOUT a war declaration?
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 26, 2007, 07:29:51 AM
in that case, what was the bill that Bush was pushing for, to gain control?  Simply to own the guard WITHOUT a war declaration?

The bill would give him authorization to activate the guard the next time Katrina happens instead of having to wait for the state and then taking the blame for them not acting. Without the bill he could only call on them for war.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: 240 is Back on March 26, 2007, 07:36:36 AM
The bill would give him authorization to activate the guard the next time Katrina happens instead of having to wait for the state and then taking the blame for them not acting. Without the bill he could only call on them for war.

Ah.

Do you feel Bush failed at all during Katrina?
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 26, 2007, 07:42:07 AM
Ah.

Do you feel Bush failed at all during Katrina?

If our country was smaller maybe, but the reason we have so much government is so Bush doesn't have to micromanage everything. I blame FEMA for the slow response, but all the president can do is put people in positions that he feels he can trust. I just don't like people that can't step up for their short comings and the Governor of LA and Mayor of NO could have done the most to avoid the problems since they are on the ground. I mean why wsn't Biloxi going through the same shit?
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: Wombat on March 26, 2007, 03:27:16 PM
search Police state on youtube...

Alex Jones has many videos showing how the military has been working side by side for some time now with the state police ect..They are gearing up toward something....

Some say that something big is going to happen just before the 08 elections...Marshell Law will come into effect and all the state workers(police ect) will then become federal workers...Time will tell...

But if any of you believe that 9/11 was done by this government then why on earth could you believe that the constitution holds any water what so ever...These people have proven time and time again that they can do what ever they want by simply forcing fear upon its citizens...

Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: 240 is Back on March 26, 2007, 06:10:45 PM
If our country was smaller maybe, but the reason we have so much government is so Bush doesn't have to micromanage everything. I blame FEMA for the slow response, but all the president can do is put people in positions that he feels he can trust. I just don't like people that can't step up for their short comings and the Governor of LA and Mayor of NO could have done the most to avoid the problems since they are on the ground. I mean why wsn't Biloxi going through the same shit?

Biloxi wasn't sitting below sea level when levees broke.

So Bush deserves ZERO PERCENT of blame for Katrina failures then?
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: 240 is Back on March 26, 2007, 06:20:08 PM
search Police state on youtube...

Alex Jones has many videos showing how the military has been working side by side for some time now with the state police ect..They are gearing up toward something....

Some say that something big is going to happen just before the 08 elections...Marshell Law will come into effect and all the state workers(police ect) will then become federal workers...Time will tell...

But if any of you believe that 9/11 was done by this government then why on earth could you believe that the constitution holds any water what so ever...These people have proven time and time again that they can do what ever they want by simply forcing fear upon its citizens...

People will choose greed and certainty, over power and uncertainty.

Bush will move to Paraguay with all his money.
Cheney will follow haliburton to Dubai with all his money.

Pentagon is already priming the Iraqi war to end in oct 2008, just in time to take away the dems edge in the nov 2008 election.  Bush got his 7 years of war.  corps got their 7 years of plundering.  nation's energy resources are indeed stronger, all at a cost of less than 10k lives.

A utilitarian success, believe it or not.  Then it's time for 8 years of Dem control - and what comes with that?  Domestic repair.  Another Bill Clinton will come in and avoid wars for a decade while repairing our nation domestically.

It's starting to make sense now - the cycles. 

Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: The Enigma on March 27, 2007, 03:39:26 AM
Ah.

Do you feel Bush failed at all during Katrina?


240.....is that a trick question for MM??  ;)
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 27, 2007, 04:45:02 AM
Biloxi wasn't sitting below sea level when levees broke.

So Bush deserves ZERO PERCENT of blame for Katrina failures then?

that's right, I forgot Bush built NO below sea level. Bush deserves ZERO credit leading up to and during the storm...he could have put more pressure on FEMA in the aftermath however but doesn't deserve a tenth of the blame that the mayor/governor deserve.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: 240 is Back on March 27, 2007, 09:04:02 AM
that's right, I forgot Bush built NO below sea level. Bush deserves ZERO credit leading up to and during the storm...he could have put more pressure on FEMA in the aftermath however but doesn't deserve a tenth of the blame that the mayor/governor deserve.

So put a % on the failure of Bush to push FEMA.

Out of 100% blame, what % do you assign to Bush?  You're obviously qualified to say it's less than a tenth what mayor/gov deserve, so it must be between 1% and 9%.

Please tell us what % of katrina's failure you assign to Bush, and why.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 27, 2007, 10:33:14 AM
So put a % on the failure of Bush to push FEMA.

Out of 100% blame, what % do you assign to Bush?  You're obviously qualified to say it's less than a tenth what mayor/gov deserve, so it must be between 1% and 9%.

Please tell us what % of katrina's failure you assign to Bush, and why.

I don't place any percentage of Katrina on Bush, he has a goverment for a reason.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: 240 is Back on March 27, 2007, 11:24:18 AM
I don't place any percentage of Katrina on Bush, he has a goverment for a reason.

So Bush is responsible for zero % of what those under his command do?
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 27, 2007, 11:33:38 AM
So Bush is responsible for zero % of what those under his command do?

So if I fuck up, since I ultimately work for Bush that means he gets part of the blame?
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: 240 is Back on March 27, 2007, 12:13:53 PM
So if I fuck up, since I ultimately work for Bush that means he gets part of the blame?

Yes.

If you hire idiots and they perform poorly, that blame does fall on you.

Please state clearly - Bush deserves ZERO PERCENT BLAME for katrina aftermath?
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 27, 2007, 12:14:35 PM
Yes.

If you hire idiots and they perform poorly, that blame does fall on you.

Please state clearly - Bush deserves ZERO PERCENT BLAME for katrina aftermath?

ZERO percent
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: 240 is Back on March 27, 2007, 12:17:17 PM
ZERO percent

okay.  your opinion has been stated.  thanks for your courage.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: militarymuscle69 on March 27, 2007, 12:50:46 PM
okay.  your opinion has been stated.  thanks for your courage.

Call me old fashioned but I am an accountability at the lowest level type of guy. That is how I run my shop. These guys know that if they want to be trusted to make decisions and not have me look over their shoulder they need to be ready for the heat if they fuck up. If I fuck up I will take it and not blame it on my CC. I don't think there is enough of that in America anymore. We live in a zero accountability environment. Especially in the youth
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: OzmO on March 27, 2007, 01:23:00 PM
Call me old fashioned but I am an accountability at the lowest level type of guy. That is how I run my shop. These guys know that if they want to be trusted to make decisions and not have me look over their shoulder they need to be ready for the heat if they fuck up. If I fuck up I will take it and not blame it on my CC. I don't think there is enough of that in America anymore. We live in a zero accountability environment. Especially in the youth

I agree with you on your approach to management and accountability and also the problem with youth these days when it comes to accepting responsibility for things that they do and that happen to them.


Bush did appoint the FEMA head, who demonstrated some incompetence during the disaster.  He needs to take part of the blame for that.  He's responsible for the result in the area of choosing the wrong person to run FEMA.  The FEMA head is responsible for his lack of competent direction in the mists of the disaster.  And each of the other players share responsibility for their short coming.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: ieffinhatecardio on March 27, 2007, 02:40:11 PM
Are you people kidding?

Bush appointed a man that had about as much business running FEMA as Donald Duck does. If you put a man in charge that has no business being in charge then you're culpable when he inevitably screws up.

I can't believe this is actually being debated.
Title: Re: 240 and I need help
Post by: 240 is Back on March 27, 2007, 10:16:58 PM
Are you people kidding?

Bush appointed a man that had about as much business running FEMA as Donald Duck does. If you put a man in charge that has no business being in charge then you're culpable when he inevitably screws up.

I can't believe this is actually being debated.

Bush should appoint a chimpanzee to run the FBI.  And a penguin to run the CIA.  And a donkey to run the Dept of Defense.

Then, we the country falls apart, we'll have getbiggers declaring bush gets ZERO percent of the blame, and we should be blaming the barnyard animals.