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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: 24KT on April 05, 2007, 05:04:11 PM
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'We Were Torturing People For No Reason' -- A Soldier's Tale
By Tara McKelvey,
The American Prospect. March 31, 2007.
Interrogator Tony Lagouranis says he discovered and indulged in his own evil at Abu Ghraib prison, and now fears that it will be his constant companion for the rest of his life.
The Torturer's Toll
Tony Lagouranis is a 37-year-old bouncer at a bar in Chicago's Humboldt Park. He is also a former torturer. That was how he was described in an email promoting a panel discussion, "24: Torture Televised," hosted by the NYU School of Law's Center on Law and Security in New York on March 21. And he doesn't shy away from the description.
As a specialist in a military intelligence battalion, Lagouranis interrogated prisoners at Abu Ghraib, Al Asad Airfield, and other places in Iraq from January through December 2004. Coercive techniques, including the use of military dogs, waterboarding, and prolonged stress positions, were employed on the detainees, he says. Prisoners held at Al Asad Airfield, which is located approximately 110 miles northwest of Baghdad, were shackled and hung from an upright bed frame "welded to the wall" in a room in an airplane hanger, he told me in a phone interview after the NYU event. When he was having problems getting information from a detainee, he recalls, the other interrogators said, "Chain him up on the bed frame and then he'll talk to you." (Lagouranis says he didn't participate directly in hangings from the frames.)
The results of the hangings, shacklings, and prolonged stress positions -- sometimes for hours -- were devastating. "You take a healthy guy and you turn him into a cripple -- at least for a period of time," Lagouranis tells me. "I don't care what Alberto Gonzales says. That's torture."
Lagouranis was on the NYU panel -- along with Jane Mayer, a New Yorker staff writer; Stephen Holmes, an NYU School of Law professor and author of an upcoming book, The Matador's Cape: America's Reckless Response to Terror; Jill Savitt, director of public programs for Human Rights First; and Wesleyan University professor Richard Slotkin -- to talk about torture and its role in the Emmy-Award-winning 24.
The show's hero, Jack Bauer (Kiefer Sutherland), is famously ruthless in his attempts to extract information about terrorist plots from suspects in "ticking timebomb" situations. The prevailing sentiment of the show, as Mayer wrote in her February 19 New Yorker article about 24, is, "Whatever it takes." Lagouranis met with the show's creative team in California in November, she wrote. He told them that the grisly plotlines of television shows like 24 had given soldiers ideas on how to torment prisoners (for example, forcing a prisoner to listen to the sounds of men being tortured in a nearby cell -- a method that was proposed, he said, but not carried out during his time in Iraq).
The violence on 24 is horrific and almost cartoon-like in its depiction. Yet the show does have a moral conscience. One of the themes, as lead writer Howard Gordon told Mayer, is that Jack Bauer suffers over the violence he is forced to inflict on men and women in the name of national security. "Jack is basically damned," Gordon told Mayer.
Jack Bauer is, of course, a fictional character. Lagouranis, meanwhile, has seen the suffering of people who have been interrogated in Iraq. Their pain is muted in comparison to the ordeal that 24 suspects have endured. The Iraqi prisoners were not electrocuted or attacked with knives, as Mayer wrote about the terrorism suspects in 24. And Lagouranis may not be, in Hollywood discourse, "damned." But he is in a state of mind that could be described as -- at the very least -- uneasy.
Lagouranis is one of the few individuals to have spoken publicly about his experiences as an interrogator who used or saw harsh techniques inflicted on prisoners in the war. His book, Fear Up Harsh: An Army Interrogator's Dark Journey through Iraq, co-authored by Allen Mikaelian, will be published in June. But he is hardly the only one familiar with the stories. It is hard to know how many men and women have witnessed acts of detainee abuse or participated in the use of coercive interrogation methods that appear to violate international law during the Iraq war. At least nine individuals, including Lynndie R. England and her former boyfriend Charles A. Graner Jr., have been sentenced to prison for detainee-related offenses at Abu Ghraib. Others may someday face prosecution for alleged crimes and detainee abuse in the Iraq war.
Lagouranis reported the detainee abuses that he witnessed in Iraq and is not a suspect in detainee-related abuses. As he says, he followed military guidelines during interrogations. "The things I participated in were technically legal," he explains. Yet there have been repercussions. He suffered from panic attacks after his return to the United States and was placed under army psychiatric care. He received an honorable discharge from the army in July 2005.
Lagouranis studied ancient Greek at St. John's College in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and he learned Arabic at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California. As he explained in his book and in conversations with me, he is familiar with classical and modern texts about warfare and the Middle East as well as with international law that protects the rights of prisoners of war.
He and other soldiers discussed the Geneva Conventions during military training at Fort Gordon, Georgia, in 2003, before being deployed to Iraq. But it became clear they were not always expected to abide by them, he says. Some of the soldiers and officers had been influenced by Mark Bowden's October 2003 Atlantic Monthly article, "The Dark Art of Interrogation," which describes techniques that, in the author's words, are "excruciating for the victim" yet "leave no permanent marks and do no lasting physical harm."
"It seems to me Bowden was advocating what he calls 'torture lite,'" Lagouranis tells me. "That made an impression on a lot of people. The feeling was that what we had been taught about the Geneva Conventions was not going to be followed anymore. We would be following a new set of rules -- and that was what Bowden was talking about."
Things seemed different in Iraq. "I started realizing that most of the prisoners were innocent," Lagouranis says. "We were torturing people for no reason. I started getting really angry and really remorseful and by the time I got back I completely broke down".
Maybe that was a normal reaction, I tell him.
"That's what my shrink told me," he says. "I can just say that people don't fully realize that for a person to do that to another human being -- it definitely takes a toll."
Back during the NYU event, Lagouranis had sat behind a long table on a stage with his sleeves rolled up and his arms folded across his chest. Toward the end of the discussion, he leaned forward and told the audience that, ultimately, the abuse of prisoners could not be blamed on shows like 24. "I'm from New York City. I'm college-educated," he said. "But you put me in Iraq and told me to torture, and I did it and I regretted it later."
It is clear that he and others like him will be dealing with the fallout from the war, especially those aspects that have been hidden from public view, for a long time. "I didn't know I would discover and indulge in my own evil," he writes in his forthcoming book. "And now that it has surfaced, I fear that it will be my constant companion for the rest of my life."
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That's pretty savage. If a civilized nation like ours does that, imagine what those animals overseas do!
I bet those British soldiers captured in Iranian waters got the crap beat out of them! They were probably sent home on crutches with horrible memories that will last a lifetime. Those animals.
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TO neocunts this is a necessary part of keeping america "safe" and the innocents on the recieving end of the torture were "sandnigs".
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9/11 has changed the way so many people think. Ten years ago people that would not have supported the use of torture are now finding that they support it. The issue is that we're better than that. We're supposed to be better than them, we're held to a higher standard. When we allow torture we no longer can claim that we're of a higher standard. This war has changed too much for too long.
This thread has another shocking lack of responses from the board neotaints. Another thread worthy of a
CRICKETS
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"mr terrorist, tell us where you planted that bomb, or else your not getting a cup cake for dessert"
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"mr terrorist, tell us where you planted that bomb, or else your not getting a cup cake for dessert"
Do you actually think before you post or do your fingers just indiscriminately type? I'm guessing the latter.
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Do you actually think before you post or do your fingers just indiscriminately type? I'm guessing the latter.
i just type whatever i know will piss off the angry liberals. you guys are so emotional and pissed off at life, its amusing.
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i just type whatever i know will piss off the angry liberals. you guys are so emotional and pissed off at life, its amusing.
LOL, I can't stop laughing at that one... lets see, liberals are usually open to new things living up life and enjoying it and conservatives are usually the ones telling liberals they shouldn't be doing that... Who's angry...
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I'm glad a specialist can make the call about who should be tortured and who shouldn't.
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i just type whatever i know will piss off the angry liberals. you guys are so emotional and pissed off at life, its amusing.
I'm not a liberal, if you were clever enough to look at my avatar you'd understand that.
You realize of course that it's neotaints that are always telling everyone how they should live don't you, that's the definition of pissed off at life. Again, that's another concept that might be out of your reach though.
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I'm not a liberal, if you were clever enough to look at my avatar you'd understand that.
You realize of course that it's neotaints that are always telling everyone how they should live don't you, that's the definition of pissed off at life. Again, that's another concept that might be out of your reach though.
{LOL} I think someone should copyright & trademark that phrase real fast. I predict huge royalties in the future. :D
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I don't know that it's wise to admit to participating in torture.
Even if it happened, admissions like this further endanger Americans abroad.
The reason we don't engage in torture isn't because it's inhumane. It's because we don't want *our* people being tortured when they are captured.
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I don't know that it's wise to admit to participating in torture.
Even if it happened, admissions like this further endanger Americans abroad.
They didn't want to admit it. The CIA guys at Gitmo all tried to get personal liability insurance, in case pics leaked of them doing what they were told to do, and they got sold up the river like those Abu Ghirab kids, who again, were following orders.
So, before scandal #2 could come out, the CIA guys did an interview with an eager ABC, where they said how effective it was in getting Kalid Sheikh Muhammad in admitting everything under the sun. Suddenly, torture became a good thing which everyone loved. Bush threw his support behind it slightly, and they all jumped on board.
They'll step back in 5-10 years and say "what the hell was I thinking" but at the moment they're caught up in the fear of the mushroom cloud being thrown in their faces continually.
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That's pretty savage. If a civilized nation like ours does that, imagine what those animals overseas do!
Civilized nation like yours? You try to be funny, do you, I mean you can't be serious about that? Exactly where you did get that idea, because there is no reason for that kind of complete inaccurate statements like that. More that 20% of your citizens can't even read and you think that is civilised? Less than 150 years a go you guys have your civil war, and one reason for it was Abe Lincoln's decision to stop slavery. From those days to present time you have been the most racist nation on the face of earth, and you think that is civilised? Well, think again, and by the way, it is childish to call that savage, because that is just normal behavior of your soldiers in war. It has happened in every war which you have been fighting in, so it is more like a habit or way to act than savage incident.
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I apologized but sorry, i wish jaguar would be tortured.
THEY FUCKING BEHEAD PEOPLE OVER THERE JAG! Make a post about that inhumane treatment!
I still love you tho Jag.
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Civilized nation like yours? You try to be funny, do you, I mean you can't be serious about that? Exactly where you did get that idea, because there is no reason for that kind of complete inaccurate statements like that. More that 20% of your citizens can't even read and you think that is civilised? Less than 150 years a go you guys have your civil war, and one reason for it was Abe Lincoln's decision to stop slavery. From those days to present time you have been the most racist nation on the face of earth, and you think that is civilised? Well, think again, and by the way, it is childish to call that savage, because that is just normal behavior of your soldiers in war. It has happened in every war which you have been fighting in, so it is more like a habit or way to act than savage incident.
Great Finn, 240 was just being sarcastic.
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Great Finn, 240 was just being sarcastic.
No, that would not be a case, because he doesn't even know the meaning of the word.
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I finally read her thread and all i can say 'that torture is too much for you jag?'
Well go interogate some of our vietnam vets and see what the fuck they went through!
The torture listed in all that mess is very little at all. How would you get information from terrorists? The old 'pretty please tell me', well that just don't work.
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I finally read her thread and all i can say 'that torture is too much for you jag?'
Well go interogate some of our vietnam vets and see what the fuck they went through!
The torture listed in all that mess is very little at all. How would you get information from terrorists? The old 'pretty please tell me', well that just don't work.
You missed a portion of what he said:
"I started realizing that most of the prisoners were innocent,"
"We were torturing people for no reason"
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You missed a portion of what he said:
"I started realizing that most of the prisoners were innocent,"
"We were torturing people for no reason"
THEY DID NOT KNOW THEY WERE INNOCENT WHEN THEY TORTURED THEM.
Excuse us but if we thought they were terrorists jag, then we did what we had to do. If at some point we said 'oooops, this one is innocent', then so be it.
This is why women are never in charge in a war, they don't have the BALLS for it.
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THEY DID NOT KNOW THEY WERE INNOCENT WHEN THEY TORTURED THEM.
Excuse us but if we thought they were terrorists jag, then we did what we had to do. If at some point we said 'oooops, this one is innocent', then so be it.
This is why women are never in charge in a war, they don't have the BALLS for it.
It was a female General who was in charge at Abu Ghraib. Apparently she didn't have a problem with it.
...oh wait, ...what was the official story... she didn't know it was taking place. ::)
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It was a female General who was in charge at Abu Ghraib. Apparently she didn't have a problem with it.
...oh wait, ...what was the official story... she didn't know it was taking place. ::)
Then she was a DAMN good woman!
What would you allow done when questioning SUSPECTED terrorists? Just the pretty please? That um, doesn't work. Even I can give my name , rank and serial number to that all day. Well actually every torture method listed there, i could even laugh off and just give my name rank and serial number.
Look Jag, if we thought those were terrorists , i'd have no problem chopping arms or legs off them to make them talk.
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Would that not then make you the evil you seek to redress?
Is in any wonder "The world is beginning to question your moral authority in the 'War on Terror'?" - Powell.
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Would that not then make you the evil you seek to redress?
Is in any wonder "The world is beginning to question your moral authority in the 'War on Terror'?" - Powell.
Nope. Because terrorists are not human beings. They are cockroaches and must be exterminated.
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9/11 has changed the way so many people think. Ten years ago people that would not have supported the use of torture are now finding that they support it. The issue is that we're better than that. We're supposed to be better than them, we're held to a higher standard. When we allow torture we no longer can claim that we're of a higher standard. This war has changed too much for too long.
This thread has another shocking lack of responses from the board neotaints. Another thread worthy of a
CRICKETS
It doesn't get response because when we tell you that playing fair is out the window against this enemy you will just call us murderers and savages.
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No, that would not be a case, because he doesn't even know the meaning of the word.
One of the funniest things in the world is when a stupid person insults a wiser man for his intelligence.
Everyone in the room - and the stupid person just a little - know the truth.
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I'm glad a specialist can make the call about who should be tortured and who shouldn't.
It's an easy question, because torture is never acceptable. Never.
It is what sets us apart from the terrorists and the shady nations in the world.
They may torture. We don't. We are above them. We are the good team.
-Hedge
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Let me add another aspect to the torture discussion:
If we would avoid torture and Prison camps like Guantanamo, the "war on terrorism" would be much more legit.
We can't stoop to the low levels of our adversaries.
Look what happened with the British sailors. That was an enormous PR victory for the dangerous Ahmadinejad. It's stupid to give him that.
Without Aby Ghrayb and Guantanamo, the PR in releasing those sailors wouldn't have been that big.
My point is, beyond just being unworthy of a civilized country, torture and unhumane treatment of prisoners are also foolish. It defeats the long-time purpose of winning a "war" on terrorism.
Anyone can see that?
-Hedge
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Do you actually think before you post or do your fingers just indiscriminately type? I'm guessing the latter.
He makes perfect sense. To go further, god help us if pussys like you were in charge of this countrys security. I'm fine with BEHEADING them at gitmo after we get the information and put it on TV as a warning to other terrorists that YES WE WILL CHOP YOUR HEAD OFF JUST AS YOU DID TO OURS.
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I don't know that it's wise to admit to participating in torture.
Even if it happened, admissions like this further endanger Americans abroad.
The reason we don't engage in torture isn't because it's inhumane. It's because we don't want *our* people being tortured when they are captured.
Wow, I didn't know any of you gave a fuck what they did to our citizens, just the terrorists.
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Let me add another aspect to the torture discussion:
If we would avoid torture and Prison camps like Guantanamo, the "war on terrorism" would be much more legit.
We can't stoop to the low levels of our adversaries.
Look what happened with the British sailors. That was an enormous PR victory for the dangerous Ahmadinejad. It's stupid to give him that.
Without Aby Ghrayb and Guantanamo, the PR in releasing those sailors wouldn't have been that big.
My point is, beyond just being unworthy of a civilized country, torture and unhumane treatment of prisoners are also foolish. It defeats the long-time purpose of winning a "war" on terrorism.
Anyone can see that?
-Hedge
Hedge,
If you were given this choice what would you do.
If you were to pose these old boys in a few pics with a dog barking at them and in exchange you got information about a terrorist attack planned on our citizens would you do it?
If not, then please bro, go out to the dark side of the web and watch these people chop someones head off with a butter knife.
If these people had a nuclear bomb, they would set it off in downtown new york city and you fucks are concerned if we have a dog bark at them while posing them in a naked pile? jesus h christ.....give me a fucking break.
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That's pretty savage. If a civilized nation like ours does that, imagine what those animals overseas do!
I bet those British soldiers captured in Iranian waters got the crap beat out of them! They were probably sent home on crutches with horrible memories that will last a lifetime. Those animals.
are you guys fucking kidding me? This guy is saying that in his opinion it was torture...we are talking a spec 4 here in probably his first enlistment that has no experience in shit like this. Obviously just another pantywaist that wanted to give these guys hugs. What in your opinion did he do that was really torture? Keep in mind, I don't think waterboarding is torture because it doesn't leave any lifelong injuries.
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are you guys fucking kidding me? This guy is saying that in his opinion it was torture...we are talking a spec 4 here in probably his first enlistment that has no experience in shit like this. Obviously just another pantywaist that wanted to give these guys hugs. What in your opinion did he do that was really torture? Keep in mind, I don't think waterboarding is torture because it doesn't leave any lifelong injuries.
Bro, I wonder where the thread is that shows the liberals absolute disgust at our citizens getting their heads cut off with a butter knife?
Now I might dish some info to someone if I thought my head was coming off via a butter knife, but snap my pic with a hoodie on me and Lassie barking at me, I think i'd laugh. Maybe we should give all the Gitmo prisoners a couple million bucks for their humiliation.
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Someone research and list some of the torture our prisoners endured in Vietnam. Bamboo shoot under my fingernails? OUCH! I'll take the barking dog, c'mere lassie, c'mere boy, bark bark bark!
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Bro, I wonder where the thread is that shows the liberals absolute disgust at our citizens getting their heads cut off with a butter knife?
Now I might dish some info to someone if I thought my head was coming off via a butter knife, but snap my pic with a hoodie on me and Lassie barking at me, I think i'd laugh. Maybe we should give all the Gitmo prisoners a couple million bucks for their humiliation.
my personal opinion is if it doesn't leave lifelong physical injuries then it isn't torture. McCain proves that if you are strong minded, mental torture can be overcome
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Hedge,
If you were given this choice what would you do.
If you were to pose these old boys in a few pics with a dog barking at them and in exchange you got information about a terrorist attack planned on our citizens would you do it?
If not, then please bro, go out to the dark side of the web and watch these people chop someones head off with a butter knife.
If these people had a nuclear bomb, they would set it off in downtown new york city and you fucks are concerned if we have a dog bark at them while posing them in a naked pile? jesus h christ.....give me a fucking break.
I am concerned about us becoming like them.
The police are experts in interrogation, and don't use torture. Why not bring their expertise in?
Why resort to torture which will give unreliable testamonies and discredit ourselves?
-Hedge
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I am concerned about us becoming like them.
The police are experts in interrogation, and don't use torture. Why not bring their expertise in?
Why resort to torture which will give unreliable testamonies and discredit ourselves?
-Hedge
Hedge, I have always thought of you as an educated voice on here...but even you have to know that interrorgating a murder/bank robber, is 100% different that interrorgating a terrorist that in his head believes that if he fails he will never meet Allah and get his virgins
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Someone research and list some of the torture our prisoners endured in Vietnam. Bamboo shoot under my fingernails? OUCH! I'll take the barking dog, c'mere lassie, c'mere boy, bark bark bark!
Mate, I think that torture is beyond comprehension, and totally disgusting.
The Vietnamese had no excuse for torturing POW's. No excuse. The same goes for the horrible torture that citizens of North Korea are put through when put in jails.
Or in medieval Africa's Horn. Watch Hotel Rwanda and Blood Diamond. Two good movies, that touches on the torture commited by fcuked up regimes in the Third World.
-Hedge
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Civilized nation like yours? You try to be funny, do you, I mean you can't be serious about that? Exactly where you did get that idea, because there is no reason for that kind of complete inaccurate statements like that. More that 20% of your citizens can't even read and you think that is civilised? Less than 150 years a go you guys have your civil war, and one reason for it was Abe Lincoln's decision to stop slavery. From those days to present time you have been the most racist nation on the face of earth, and you think that is civilised? Well, think again, and by the way, it is childish to call that savage, because that is just normal behavior of your soldiers in war. It has happened in every war which you have been fighting in, so it is more like a habit or way to act than savage incident.
20% of Americans are can't read? Funny. We have a 99% literacy rate. The same as Canada, Sweden etc.. In my 45 years I have never met someone who can't read or write. Funny how all of the great technological advancements seem to come from the USA great finn. ::)
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Civilized nation like yours? You try to be funny, do you, I mean you can't be serious about that? Exactly where you did get that idea, because there is no reason for that kind of complete inaccurate statements like that. More that 20% of your citizens can't even read and you think that is civilised? Less than 150 years a go you guys have your civil war, and one reason for it was Abe Lincoln's decision to stop slavery. From those days to present time you have been the most racist nation on the face of earth, and you think that is civilised? Well, think again, and by the way, it is childish to call that savage, because that is just normal behavior of your soldiers in war. It has happened in every war which you have been fighting in, so it is more like a habit or way to act than savage incident.
Monster jealousy issue there great finn. It comes out all the time. Please get some help.
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I am concerned about us becoming like them.
The police are experts in interrogation, and don't use torture. Why not bring their expertise in?
Why resort to torture which will give unreliable testamonies and discredit ourselves?
-Hedge
The police interrogate scared men, I doubt their techniques would get information out of a terrorist thats willing to strap dynamite to his body and blow himself up, or fly a plane into a building. I'm sure they began shining bright lights in their eyes and questioning them like barney fife, when that failed it upped the ante a bit. I dunno, I just see this as US or THEM and whatever means it takes to get information, fine by me. You would trade american lifes in exchange for not having a dog bark at a prisoner? That just totally baffles me.
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20% of Americans are can't read? Funny. We have a 99% literacy rate. The same as Canada, Sweden etc.. In my 45 years I have never met someone who can't read or write. Funny how all of the great technological advancements seem to come from the USA great finn. ::)
I think Finn is actually Huck Finn
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The police interrogate scared men, I doubt their techniques would get information out of a terrorist thats willing to strap dynamite to his body and blow himself up, or fly a plane into a building. I'm sure they began shining bright lights in their eyes and questioning them like barney fife, when that failed it upped the ante a bit. I dunno, I just see this as US or THEM and whatever means it takes to get information, fine by me. You would trade american lifes in exchange for not having a dog bark at a prisoner? That just totally baffles me.
Do you believe in the confession of Khalid Sheik Muhammed?
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2007/03/true-confessions-tale-of-khalid-shaikh.php
-Hedge
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Do you believe in the confession of Khalid Sheik Muhammed?
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2007/03/true-confessions-tale-of-khalid-shaikh.php
-Hedge
we all know that interrorgation of any sort can bring about lies. You could be sweet as pie to him and they will still give you wrong info
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we all know that interrorgation of any sort can bring about lies. You could be sweet as pie to him and they will still give you wrong info
I will readily admit that I think that if given the choice of torturing someone for information that would lead me to info preventing the 9-11, I would probably jump at the chance. Hopefully, our system would prevent me from doing this.
One thing:
These prisoners should be treated as any suspect. Meaning, they can't be treated like at Guantanamo, held without any charges.
I appreciate all this as something hard to accept, and to live by. But it is what makes us the better men. The good guys.
-Hedge
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I will readily admit that I think that if given the choice of torturing someone for information that would lead me to info preventing the 9-11, I would probably jump at the chance. Hopefully, our system would prevent me from doing this.
One thing:
These prisoners should be treated as any suspect. Meaning, they can't be treated like at Guantanamo, held without any charges.
I appreciate all this as something hard to accept, and to live by. But it is what makes us the better men. The good guys.
-Hedge
Sorry, this is a different time, only way to fight these cockroaches is to fight fire with fire.
I wish the world could be lived through rose colored glasses and its a sweet little dream.
Its not reality in the world we live in today.
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Sorry, this is a different time, only way to fight these cockroaches is to fight fire with fire.
I wish the world could be lived through rose colored glasses and its a sweet little dream.
Its not reality in the world we live in today.
i think you underestimate the jap and ger forces in WWII. Also the brutal korean generals.
But hey, I bet you can tell us if sanjaya is still on american idol! ;)
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i think you underestimate the jap and ger forces in WWII. Also the brutal korean generals.
But hey, I bet you can tell us if sanjaya is still on american idol! ;)
Of course he is, Sanjay is sexxing up Paula Abdul!
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Sorry, this is a different time, only way to fight these cockroaches is to fight fire with fire.
I wish the world could be lived through rose colored glasses and its a sweet little dream.
Its not reality in the world we live in today.
That's one of your problem's Rooster, ...you have lost touch with reality.
You don't fight fire with fire (no matter how catchy it sounds or how many times the phrase has been repeatedly brainwashed into your psyche. Any firefighter will tell you... YOU FIGHT FIRE WITH WATER!
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That's one of your problem's Rooster, ...you have lost touch with reality.
You don't fight fire with fire (no matter how catchy it sounds or how many times the phrase has been repeatedly brainwashed into your psyche. Any firefighter will tell you... YOU FIGHT FIRE WITH WATER!
Very wise, obvious, and often overlooked point, Jag.
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Any firefighter will tell you... YOU FIGHT FIRE WITH WATER!
On that note, does anyone not feel that years ago there were a sect who hated the US and wanted to do it harm - now years later after 60,000+ deaths at US military hands, invasions, bombings, the infamous pics, allegations of torture, plus all the other matters the hatred of the US policies may have grown from a few sects to more commonplace on a worldwide scale?
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That's one of your problem's Rooster, ...you have lost touch with reality.
You don't fight fire with fire (no matter how catchy it sounds or how many times the phrase has been repeatedly brainwashed into your psyche. Any firefighter will tell you... YOU FIGHT FIRE WITH WATER!
I know you would fight terror with love Jag. let al-quaeda kidnap someone and demand 10 terrorists be released, you would release them and probably give them spending money when you released them