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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: 24KT on April 05, 2007, 09:00:32 PM
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No hoods. No electric shocks. No beatings.
These Iranians clearly are a very uncivilised bunch
by Terry Jones
The Guardian - 2007-03-31
I share the outrage expressed in the British press over the treatment of our naval personnel accused by Iran of illegally entering their waters. It is a disgrace. We would never dream of treating captives like this - allowing them to smoke cigarettes, for example, even though it has been proven that smoking kills. And as for compelling poor servicewoman Faye Turney to wear a black headscarf, and then allowing the picture to be posted around the world - have the Iranians no concept of civilised behaviour? For God's sake, what's wrong with putting a bag over her head? That's what we do with the Muslims we capture: we put bags over their heads, so it's hard to breathe. Then it's perfectly acceptable to take photographs of them and circulate them to the press because the captives can't be recognised and humiliated in the way these unfortunate British service people are.
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/abu-ghraib-carrying-box.jpg)
(http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2004-05/12521643.jpg)
It is also unacceptable that these British captives should be made to talk on television and say things that they may regret later. If the Iranians put duct tape over their mouths, like we do to our captives, they wouldn't be able to talk at all. Of course they'd probably find it even harder to breathe - especially with a bag over their head - but at least they wouldn't be humiliated.
And what's all this about allowing the captives to write letters home saying they are all right? It's time the Iranians fell into line with the rest of the civilised world: they should allow their captives the privacy of solitary confinement. That's one of the many privileges the US grants to its captives in Guantánamo Bay.
The true mark of a civilised country is that it doesn't rush into charging people whom it has arbitrarily arrested in places it's just invaded. The inmates of Guantánamo, for example, have been enjoying all the privacy they want for almost five years, and the first inmate has only just been charged. What a contrast to the disgraceful Iranian rush to parade their captives before the cameras!
What's more, it is clear that the Iranians are not giving their British prisoners any decent physical exercise. The US military make sure that their Iraqi captives enjoy PT. This takes the form of exciting "stress positions", which the captives are expected to hold for hours on end so as to improve their stomach and calf muscles. A common exercise is where they are made to stand on the balls of their feet and then squat so that their thighs are parallel to the ground. This creates intense pain and, finally, muscle failure. It's all good healthy fun and has the bonus that the captives will confess to anything to get out of it.
And this brings me to my final point. It is clear from her TV appearance that servicewoman Turney has been put under pressure. The newspapers have persuaded behavioural psychologists to examine the footage and they all conclude that she is "unhappy and stressed".
What is so appalling is the underhand way in which the Iranians have got her "unhappy and stressed". She shows no signs of electrocution or burn marks and there are no signs of beating on her face. This is unacceptable. If captives are to be put under duress, such as by forcing them into compromising sexual positions, or having electric shocks to their genitals, they should be photographed, as they were in Abu Ghraib. The photographs should then be circulated around the civilised world so that everyone can see exactly what has been going on.
As Stephen Glover pointed out in the Daily Mail, perhaps it would not be right to bomb Iran in retaliation for the humiliation of our servicemen, but clearly the Iranian people must be made to suffer - whether by beefing up sanctions, as the Mail suggests, or simply by getting President Bush to hurry up and invade, as he intends to anyway, and bring democracy and western values to the country, as he has in Iraq.
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Typical left-wing garbage from a socialist rag sheet.
The Mullahs in Iran are anti-thesis of so-called liberal/leftist values with regards to civil rights, woman's rights, and gay rights.
But to the Left, Islamists have one redeeming trait; a savage hatred of America (and the West, as well). That's all the Left needs to hear.
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What are you talking about? Didn't you read the headlines? ...these Iranians are a very uncivilized bunch!
Hot meals, letters home, snazzy suits & cigarettes
vs.
naked pyramids, electrocuted genitalia, vicious murders, and the repeated sodomy of little boys.
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Are we talking about the same country that hanged two teenage homosexuals?
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Are we talking about the same country that hanged two teenage homosexuals?
Yep, ...that's pretty messed up, ...but I suppose it's better that they hang someone they have proof against, as opposed to some countries who jerk themselves off claiming to be civilized yet will condone and/or justify the murder of those someone merely suspects may be gay, ...or who will systematically, rape, torture and sodomize innocent liitle children in the name of freedom.
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Typical left-wing garbage from a socialist rag sheet.
The Mullahs in Iran are anti-thesis of so-called liberal/leftist values with regards to civil rights, woman's rights, and gay rights.
But to the Left, Islamists have one redeeming trait; a savage hatred of America (and the West, as well). That's all the Left needs to hear.
It's not a socialist paper.
They're right in critisising the Guantanamo prison.
But where these culture-huggers repeatedly fcuks up, is that they hold ourselves to a high standard, which I agree on, but for some reason, un-known to me, tolerates any kind of shit in these countries.
I definitely think the whole Guantamo situation is a disgrace.
But that won't make me any less critical of any society where women have to take a backseat.
To be honest, I am surprised to see how some females on this board, such as jaguar, don't at least acknowledge that Iran is a terrible country due to its heavy patriarchal structure.
-Hedge
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What are you talking about? Didn't you read the headlines? ...these Iranians are a very uncivilized bunch!
Hot meals, letters home, snazzy suits & cigarettes
vs.
naked pyramids, electrocuted genitalia, vicious murders, and the repeated sodomy of little boys.
Then fucking pack yo bags and move yo ass to Tehran! Let us know how it works out for you, I suspect your head will be lopped off within a week.
Yep, since they know the UK or USA will blow their ass to smithereens, it is a very good deterrent to treat prisoners well.
As far as how we treated detainees at gitmo, after we got through interrogating them, should have snuffed them all out. This thread shows that liberals as i've said numerous times are pansies at heart or as arnold said , they are GIRLY MEN.
You have a problem doing what is necessary to get information from terrorists? I don't. Real men know sometimes you have to get a little rough with shithead terrorists to make em sing.
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Then fucking pack yo bags and move yo ass to Tehran! Let us know how it works out for you, I suspect your head will be lopped off within a week.
Yep, since they know the UK or USA will blow their ass to smithereens, it is a very good deterrent to treat prisoners well.
As far as how we treated detainees at gitmo, after we got through interrogating them, should have snuffed them all out. This thread shows that liberals as i've said numerous times are pansies at heart or as arnold said , they are GIRLY MEN.
You have a problem doing what is necessary to get information from terrorists? I don't. Real men know sometimes you have to get a little rough with shithead terrorists to make em sing.
One problem.
Most prisoners held at Guantamo are most likely not terrorists or have no association to terrorism whatsoever.
When USA issued rewards to those who brought in terrorist suspects, local warlords not surprisingly came up with a bunch of suspects, collecting easy money.
-Hedge
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One problem.
Most prisoners held at Guantamo are most likely not terrorists or have no association to terrorism whatsoever.
When USA issued rewards to those who brought in terrorist suspects, local warlords not surprisingly came up with a bunch of suspects, collecting easy money.
-Hedge
I'm sure you will not be suprised at my reply hedge. If we have to rough up 100 folks at gitmo to get information from 1 true terrorist, sorry i have zero problem with that. They were posed for pictures, scared by doggies, big fucking whoop. we were trying to find information about peeps that flew planes into buildings in downtown NEW YORK so i don't have a problem if we kill 100 over there to get 1 true terrorist. war is hell. We lost innocent lifes, boo hoo if they did also.
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I'm sure you will not be suprised at my reply hedge. If we have to rough up 100 folks at gitmo to get information from 1 true terrorist, sorry i have zero problem with that. They were posed for pictures, scared by doggies, big fucking whoop. we were trying to find information about peeps that flew planes into buildings in downtown NEW YORK so i don't have a problem if we kill 100 over there to get 1 true terrorist. war is hell. We lost innocent lifes, boo hoo if they did also.
If it's the terrorist who loses innocent lives, I would get what you're saying.
But here's a bunch of people, not related to the terrorists in any way, who are being held and tortured.
It could just as well be either you or me. Or any other getbigger. The point I'm making is that it's not losses for the terrorists in anyway if innocent people are sitting there.
Some people thinks that to get the guilty, we need to sacrifice many innocents.
But that's not how our society works. Eg, if there is a murder, you won't see ten people sentenced for that murder, just because the court knows that at least one of the guys is guilty.
Look at the situation at Guantanamo. Why do you think that prisoners from all other countries have been released?
I think Guantamo is shit. And the shit is about to hit the fan.
-Hedge
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If it's the terrorist who loses innocent lives, I would get what you're saying.
But here's a bunch of people, not related to the terrorists in any way, who are being held and tortured.
It could just as well be either you or me. Or any other getbigger. The point I'm making is that it's not losses for the terrorists in anyway if innocent people are sitting there.
Some people thinks that to get the guilty, we need to sacrifice many innocents.
But that's not how our society works. Eg, if there is a murder, you won't see ten people sentenced for that murder, just because the court knows that at least one of the guys is guilty.
Look at the situation at Guantanamo. Why do you think that prisoners from all other countries have been released?
I think Guantamo is shit. And the shit is about to hit the fan.
-Hedge
What i'm saying is if they roughed up 100 prisoners at gitmo to get information from one true terrorist, I have ZERO problem with that.
This really is the final battle, US against THEM. They want every american dead. So if we have to kill 100 innocents over in the land of Ali Babba to get one true terrorist, sorry but i'm ok/fine with that.
I'm sure tons of civilians lost their lifes when we blew Baghdad the fuck up. SO be it........
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What i'm saying is if they roughed up 100 prisoners at gitmo to get information from one true terrorist, I have ZERO problem with that.
This really is the final battle, US against THEM. They want every american dead. So if we have to kill 100 innocents over in the land of Ali Babba to get one true terrorist, sorry but i'm ok/fine with that.
I'm sure tons of civilians lost their lifes when we blew Baghdad the fuck up. SO be it........
Would you be ok with killing innocent US citizens to get the "true terrorists"?
Remember, I don't believe in the 9/11 conspiracy though. But how far would you go to get one terrorist?
-Hedge
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Would you be ok with killing innocent US citizens to get the "true terrorists"?
Remember, I don't believe in the 9/11 conspiracy though. But how far would you go to get one terrorist?
-Hedge
A Muslim american? hmmmmm. Sure.
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What i'm saying is if they roughed up 100 prisoners at gitmo to get information from one true terrorist, I have ZERO problem with that.
Then may you or someone you love be one of those 100.
Peace out.
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Hedge..please research..the folks at Gitmo are bad guys..pretty much all of them. I'm sure a few are not as bad as some. I spent a few weeks down there in late Oct 2006. These guys are all pretty much terrorists..money guys..or associates of terrorists. Abu Garib was a mistake..but it was war. Nobody got killed...Please read Bravo 2-0 By Andy Mcnab...thats what Iraqi's do to prisoners.
Jag..I loose respect each every day. Iran is a major state sponsor of terrorism....the list of atrocities is long and bloody. Tehran just orchestrated a well designed public relations campaign to show how benevolent they are. They are being pushed into a corner and they reacted stupidly. What..where they going to torture folks they knew they had to give back at some point....gimme a break.
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Ribo there is a dirt shack in a 3rd world shithole calling ur name..please move.
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Ribo there is a dirt shack in a 3rd world shithole calling ur name..please move.
Please eat a dick. :)
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Then may you or someone you love be one of those 100.
Peace out.
go burn the american flag and have a good time asshole.
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go burn the american flag and have a good time asshole.
Please refer to my last post in this thread. :)
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As soon as u move to any of these wonderful countries that u defend..but have never been to....I will. But since your an ethnic jew I would imagine u would last about 30 seconds. Being that unlike here where somebody might call u a name..u'd be persecuted with an AK round to the head. .....But America sucks right.
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since your an ethnic jew I would imagine u would last about 30 seconds
I'll just let you enjoy that happy thought for a while. :)
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Um nope..kinda like the jews actually....alot.
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What are you talking about? Didn't you read the headlines? ...these Iranians are a very uncivilized bunch!
Hot meals, letters home, snazzy suits & cigarettes
vs.
naked pyramids, electrocuted genitalia, vicious murders, and the repeated sodomy of little boys.
clearly their propaganda worked on you
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Yep, ...that's pretty messed up, ...but I suppose it's better that they hang someone they have proof against, as opposed to some countries who jerk themselves off claiming to be civilized yet will condone and/or justify the murder of those someone merely suspects may be gay, ...or who will systematically, rape, torture and sodomize innocent liitle children in the name of freedom.
systematically, rape, torture and sodomize innocent liitle children in the name of freedom?
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systematically, rape, torture and sodomize innocent liitle children in the name of freedom?
A White House legal spokesman wouldn't rule out the mutilation of children's genetalia to get the parent to reveal information. Also the CIA member told ABC news they told Kalid sheikh muhammad about the torture his children were enduring.
Yes, they reserve that right.
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A White House legal spokesman wouldn't rule out the mutilation of children's genetalia to get the parent to reveal information. Also the CIA member told ABC news they told Kalid sheikh muhammad about the torture his children were enduring.
Yes, they reserve that right.
Look man, Like I have said before, if these things have happened they are isolated incidents and in all cases the people that were caught were or are in the process of being removed from the military. I am so tired of the military being called rapists, murderers and molestors. In a community of 2 million people you are bound to have a bad apple.
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To be honest, I am surprised to see how some females on this board, such as jaguar, don't at least acknowledge that Iran is a terrible country due to its heavy patriarchal structure.
-Hedge
Women got the right to vote in America in 1920. Thats not that long ago. Im sure there are other examples where American women were not treated as equals and are still not to this day.
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Look man, Like I have said before, if these things have happened they are isolated incidents and in all cases the people that were caught were or are in the process of being removed from the military. I am so tired of the military being called rapists, murderers and molestors. In a community of 2 million people you are bound to have a bad apple.
I bet that guy would still root for his football team if one member of the team was arrested for rape.
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Women got the right to vote in America in 1920. Thats not that long ago. Im sure there are other examples where American women were not treated as equals and are still not to this day.
Definitely.
I whole-heartedly agree. One aspect is that women's salaries are lower when they're holding the exact same position in a company.
But culture-huggers who fight for women's right and civil rights in the USA, can't hold different standards for these countries.
Just as well as USA or any other country in the Western Civilization cannot stoop to their low levels.
Because it is our good society that makes us right. If we loses that, we're no better than them.
-Hedge
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What are you talking about? Didn't you read the headlines? ...these Iranians are a very uncivilized bunch!
Hot meals, letters home, snazzy suits & cigarettes
vs.
naked pyramids, electrocuted genitalia, vicious murders, and the repeated sodomy of little boys.
"naked pyramids, electrocuted genitalia, vicious murders, and the repeated sodomy of little boys."
wow. you are out of your mind. one naked pyramid, a few murders and rape by random soldiers and now this is what the US stands for? get a clue, go to Iran or Saudi Arabia and speak your dissent agains the theocratic dictatorships and see what happens
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Hedge..please research..the folks at Gitmo are bad guys..pretty much all of them. I'm sure a few are not as bad as some. I spent a few weeks down there in late Oct 2006. These guys are all pretty much terrorists..money guys..or associates of terrorists. Abu Garib was a mistake..but it was war. Nobody got killed...Please read Bravo 2-0 By Andy Mcnab...thats what Iraqi's do to prisoners.
Jag..I loose respect each every day. Iran is a major state sponsor of terrorism....the list of atrocities is long and bloody. Tehran just orchestrated a well designed public relations campaign to show how benevolent they are. They are being pushed into a corner and they reacted stupidly. What..where they going to torture folks they knew they had to give back at some point....gimme a break.
excellent post
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A White House legal spokesman wouldn't rule out the mutilation of children's genetalia to get the parent to reveal information. Also the CIA member told ABC news they told Kalid sheikh muhammad about the torture his children were enduring.
Yes, they reserve that right.
US soldiers would never torture children. It would never happen.
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Typical left-wing garbage from a socialist rag sheet.
The Mullahs in Iran are anti-thesis of so-called liberal/leftist values with regards to civil rights, woman's rights, and gay rights.
But to the Left, Islamists have one redeeming trait; a savage hatred of America (and the West, as well). That's all the Left needs to hear.
I agree.
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Oh god..I wish some of or euro/Islamo loving libs would read their history. Do u people know what the damm euro's do on a daily basis in Africa. While we play in the mid east to secure oil rights..yes 240 that what its all about and always will be...the damm euro's do the same thing in Africa. They don't care about human rights. They work to destabilize governments on a constant basis. Many of the former colonial counties..equitorial guinie (sp) once controled by Spain have huge Natural gas/oil reserves. The Euro's are pissed because they can't get back in. Many african nations look to the US to help them. They hate Europe for 200 years of meddling, butchery, and bloodshed. Nobody cares about Darfur but we have sent in troops/proxies....we sent in folks to Liberia..Seria Leone....Somalia...while Europe sat back and waited to pounce on the oil. The Italians were giddy we pulled out of Somalia because they wanted off shore oil rights. Nobody has their hands clean...we do a hell of alot more then the so called enlightened Europeans.
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Women got the right to vote in America in 1920. Thats not that long ago. Im sure there are other examples where American women were not treated as equals and are still not to this day.
While that doesn't seem like a long time, there's been an information revolution in the last 100 years: movies, radio, television, and, more recently, the internet.
You can't compare the years 1920-2000 to 1520-1600.
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Oh god..I wish some of or euro/Islamo loving libs would read their history. Do u people know what the damm euro's do on a daily basis in Africa. While we play in the mid east to secure oil rights..yes 240 that what its all about and always will be...the damm euro's do the same thing in Africa. They don't care about human rights. They work to destabilize governments on a constant basis. Many of the former colonial counties..equitorial guinie (sp) once controled by Spain have huge Natural gas/oil reserves. The Euro's are pissed because they can't get back in. Many african nations look to the US to help them. They hate Europe for 200 years of meddling, butchery, and bloodshed. Nobody cares about Darfur but we have sent in troops/proxies....we sent in folks to Liberia..Seria Leone....Somalia...while Europe sat back and waited to pounce on the oil. The Italians were giddy we pulled out of Somalia because they wanted off shore oil rights. Nobody has their hands clean...we do a hell of alot more then the so called enlightened Europeans.
Two wrongs doesn't make one right.
What does the "Europeans" have to do with anything here?
If you want to discuss warcrimes and political crimes committed by Spain, Sweden, or any other country, I am all for it.
If you want to discuss the problems of the theocratic society in Iran, I am all gung ho.
But stick to one issue. Don't cop out with claiming that others are doing shit just as bad.
That's no excuse.
-Hedge
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A Muslim american? hmmmmm. Sure.
IMO, both you and jaguar seems to have a shady understanding for what democracy is.
-Hedge
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Two wrongs doesn't make one right.
What does the "Europeans" have to do with anything here?
If you want to discuss warcrimes and political crimes committed by Spain, Sweden, or any other country, I am all for it.
If you want to discuss the problems of the theocratic society in Iran, I am all gung ho.
But stick to one issue. Don't cop out with claiming that others are doing shit just as bad.
That's no excuse.
-Hedge
Folks here do it all the time...any thread on here becomes some looney 911 ct or some hate America rant. My point was...we get bashed here ona daily basis by libs who defend both Islam and Europe as bastions of freedom and democracy/human rights..which they are clearly not.
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Oh god..I wish some of or euro/Islamo loving libs would read their history. Do u people know what the damm euro's do on a daily basis in Africa. While we play in the mid east to secure oil rights..yes 240 that what its all about and always will be...the damm euro's do the same thing in Africa. They don't care about human rights. They work to destabilize governments on a constant basis. Many of the former colonial counties..equitorial guinie (sp) once controled by Spain have huge Natural gas/oil reserves. The Euro's are pissed because they can't get back in. Many african nations look to the US to help them. They hate Europe for 200 years of meddling, butchery, and bloodshed. Nobody cares about Darfur but we have sent in troops/proxies....we sent in folks to Liberia..Seria Leone....Somalia...while Europe sat back and waited to pounce on the oil. The Italians were giddy we pulled out of Somalia because they wanted off shore oil rights. Nobody has their hands clean...we do a hell of alot more then the so called enlightened Europeans.
England ousted Iran's democrtically elected president Mohmmad Mossadeg in the 60's because he wanted to nationalize Iran's oil and take it away from British Petroleum, which controled Iranian oil back then. They put the Shah in power and that eventually led to the Islamic revolution.
I don't like Iran or any other country that bases its laws on Islam. However, I don't have a problem with Iran taking issue with England for entering its waters. I don't have a problem with a country resisting others when they try and meddle and you shouldn't.
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Folks here do it all the time...any thread on here becomes some looney 911 ct or some hate America rant. My point was...we get bashed here ona daily basis by libs who defend both Islam and Europe as bastions of freedom and democracy/human rights..which they are clearly not.
I disagree, of course.
I don't see Islam as a bastion of freedom.
I and other Europeans (Nordic eg) have numerous times discussed problems in Europe, the Muslim Minority the most recent example.
But let me be crystal clear on one thing: Those who side with dictatures just because those are opposing the USA are political idiots IMO.
You on the other hand seem to equal critisism of the Bush Administration with hatred of the USA. I apologize if I am wrong though.
There are many Republicans or Democrats that could do a better job as a president.
-Hedge
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Hedge..please research..the folks at Gitmo are bad guys..pretty much all of them. I'm sure a few are not as bad as some. I spent a few weeks down there in late Oct 2006. These guys are all pretty much terrorists..money guys..or associates of terrorists. Abu Garib was a mistake..but it was war. Nobody got killed...Please read Bravo 2-0 By Andy Mcnab...thats what Iraqi's do to prisoners.
What do you mean no one got killed? there were many deaths due to the torture, as well as out right murders committed there. those pictures initially released were just the tip of the iceberg. Those were just the relatively palatable ones. They've still got all the others along with the videotapes... the ones that show the brutal sadistic acts carried out on innocent men, women, and children. Just because the video of soldiers sodomizing little boys has not yet made the rounds on YouTube, ...don't try to pretend it doesn't exist. And having been stationed in Afghanistan, you know perfectly well the Northern Alliance was scooping up people to turn over to the US in exchange for cash... million of dollars of US tax payer money. People were hunted down like buffalos, their skins turned over to the pelt traders. They collected their money and went off in search of more buffalo pelts to round up... scoop em up... collect your cash
Jag..I loose respect each every day.
I'd rather you lose respect than lose yur mind suddenly coming to grips with the attrocities you were made to take part in and believe in, in order to survive the hell hole Bush and his cabal unecessarily put you in.
Iran is a major state sponsor of terrorism....the list of atrocities is long and bloody.
You say that like the USA is no different. Coming from a country with an even longer and bloodier list of attrocities... heck, the USA wrote the book on sponsoring state terrorism. If your country hadn't been doing it from way back... we wouldn't be in this mess now. Remember Mossadegh? Blowback is a bitch
Tehran just orchestrated a well designed public relations campaign to show how benevolent they are. They are being pushed into a corner and they reacted stupidly. What..where they going to torture folks they knew they had to give back at some point....gimme a break.
It seems to me they didn't react stupidly at all. They scored a major PR hit, ...and spoke the truth.
They told the Brits to confess and they'd be home in short order, ...deny and they'd spend 7 yrs for espionage.
They confessed, ...and they were on a plane home. When a prosecutor has the goods on you, and offers you a plea, ...you take it.
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systematically, rape, torture and sodomize innocent liitle children in the name of freedom?
Yes! All this went on at Abu Ghraib. They even videotaped themselves doing it.
What kind of a moral ethical disconnect takes place in a human being that they can do such a thing and think it not only OK to do, ...but also to videotape?
And once a man has experienced that kind of evil from within himself, what becomes of him?
If you think this war only wreaks destruction upon the enemy... think again.
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What do you mean no one got killed? there were many deaths due to the torture, as well as out right murders committed there. those pictures initially released were just the tip of the iceberg. Those were just the relatively palatable ones. They've still got all the others along with the videotapes... the ones that show the brutal sadistic acts carried out on innocent men, women, and children. Just because the video of soldiers sodomizing little boys has not yet made the rounds on YouTube, ...don't try to pretend it doesn't exist. And having been stationed in Afghanistan, you know perfectly well the Northern Alliance was scooping up people to turn over to the US in exchange for cash... million of dollars of US tax payer money. People were hunted down like buffalos, their skins turned over to the pelt traders. They collected their money and went off in search of more buffalo pelts to round up... scoop em up... collect your cash
I'd rather you lose respect than lose yur mind suddenly coming to grips with the attrocities you were made to take part in and believe in, in order to survive the hell hole Bush and his cabal unecessarily put you in.
You say that like the USA is no different. Coming from a country with an even longer and bloodier list of attrocities... heck, the USA wrote the book on sponsoring state terrorism. If your country hadn't been doing it from way back... we wouldn't be in this mess now. Remember Mossadegh? Blowback is a bitch
It seems to me they didn't react stupidly at all. They scored a major PR hit, ...and spoke the truth.
They told the Brits to confess and they'd be home in short order, ...deny and they'd spend 7 yrs for espionage.
They confessed, ...and they were on a plane home. When a prosecutor has the goods on you, and offers you a plea, ...you take it.
Another America-hating diatribe. ::)
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"naked pyramids, electrocuted genitalia, vicious murders, and the repeated sodomy of little boys."
wow. you are out of your mind. one naked pyramid, a few murders and rape by random soldiers and now this is what the US stands for?
I didn't say this is what the US stands for, ...but it is what went on as a matter of routine within Abu Ghraib.
get a clue, go to Iran or Saudi Arabia and speak your dissent agains the theocratic dictatorships and see what happens
I have no desire to go to Iran or Saudi Arabia. So much US intervention into those countries over the years has left a legacy of such brutal repression & dictatorship I have no desire to live there.
Let me ask you this... how much do you know about either country?
...or what is was like there before others decided to meddle there?
The Islamic fundamentalism that has taken hold has done so for a reason, and not without assistance from the USA
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Folks here do it all the time...any thread on here becomes some looney 911 ct or some hate America rant. My point was...we get bashed here ona daily basis by libs who defend both Islam and Europe as bastions of freedom and democracy/human rights..which they are clearly not.
Since when did speaking the truth, or relaying facts become America bashing?
Because those facts make American decisions appear unwise or regrettable in hindsight?
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I have no desire to go to Iran or Saudi Arabia. So much US intervention into those countries over the years has left a legacy of such brutal repression & dictatorship I have no desire to live there.
Let me ask you this... how much do you know about either country?
...or what is was like there before others decided to meddle there?
The Islamic fundamentalism that has taken hold has done so for a reason, and not without assistance from the USA
I can tell you this: Any Muslim country has laws that aren't women friendly.
The kind of Islam that is practiced in Saudi Arabia, wahabbism, is a very strict one. Women don't even get to vote. This happened long before USA had interests in the area.
Women takes a backseat in Muslim countries. That is a fact.
Feminism and Islam are two entities that cannot co-exist. I obviously choose the sooner.
Finally, a question:
You claim that USA has intervened in Saudi Arabia. How?
-Hedge
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Since when did speaking the truth, or relaying facts become America bashing?
Because those facts make American decisions appear unwise or regrettable in hindsight?
When you look for every conceivable reason to bash America, while, at the same, look for every excuse to rationalize the actions of its enemies, then it's America bashing.
My take on you is that you, living in Canada, have American Penis-Envy. IMO, you'd trade your Canadian citizenship for a greencard in a heartbeat.
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US soldiers would never torture children. It would never happen.
Some US soldiers raped a 14-year old girl and executed her family one-by-one in the next room, so she was able to hear their killings before the drunken US soldiers finished with her, and killed her also.
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Let me make things clear so nobody gets me wrong..I'm a US citizen..I wear the uniform of her Armed forces....I could give a shit less about the enemy or whats fair..i care about the United States. I know we make mistakes...in most cases those who made them..such as in 240's last post will pay..but its war and things happen. And I only care about those mistakes in the context that they will put our soldiers in harms way, such as in Abu Garib. I really don't care we tortured these people beacuse I know they would do far worse to me or you. I want the war to end and I want the guys to come home..victorious..Iraq stable and the oil secured. I care about Iraq only in our stategic best interest as i do about any other country. Anything less would be naive. I could care less about Iran or her people...Its like playing football and worriing about the other team..I care about my team....Jag unless u post facts don't say insurgents die all the time in our prisons because its not true. Not only that..these guys suck and if they die..well the only bad part is maybe they didn't give up enough intel that will save American lives.
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Let me make things clear so nobody gets me wrong..I'm a US citizen..I wear the uniform of her Armed forces....I could give a shit less about the enemy or whats fair..i care about the United States. I know we make mistakes...in most cases those who made them..such as in 240's last post will pay..but its war and things happen. And I only care about those mistakes in the context that they will put our soldiers in harms way, such as in Abu Garib. I really don't care we tortured these people beacuse I know they would do far worse to me or you. I want the war to end and I want the guys to come home..victorious..Iraq stable and the oil secured. I care about Iraq only in our stategic best interest as i do about any other country. Anything less would be naive. I could care less about Iran or her people...Its like playing football and worriing about the other team..I care about my team....Jag unless u post facts don't say insurgents die all the time in our prisons because its not true. Not only that..these guys suck and if they die..well the only bad part is maybe they didn't give up enough intel that will save American lives.
And while you may have a hard time getting into heaven with that attitude (if you believe in one), the US DOES need people like you to keep us safe.
Likewise, the US needs people who are very ANTI-war. It keeps the warmongers from attacking 3 nations a YEAR instead of 3 nations a decade.
Anyone who says "we don't need libs" or "republicans are murderers!" doesn't understand balance, and would end up in a war state, or speaking chinese, in short order without the other side.
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I agree about balance. Also I'm going to heaven bro..12 year stretch in Catholic school ensures entrance :P
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Let me make things clear so nobody gets me wrong..I'm a US citizen..I wear the uniform of her Armed forces....I could give a shit less about the enemy or whats fair..i care about the United States. I know we make mistakes...in most cases those who made them..such as in 240's last post will pay..but its war and things happen. And I only care about those mistakes in the context that they will put our soldiers in harms way, such as in Abu Garib. I really don't care we tortured these people beacuse I know they would do far worse to me or you. I want the war to end and I want the guys to come home..victorious..Iraq stable and the oil secured. I care about Iraq only in our stategic best interest as i do about any other country. Anything less would be naive. I could care less about Iran or her people...Its like playing football and worriing about the other team..I care about my team....Jag unless u post facts don't say insurgents die all the time in our prisons because its not true. Not only that..these guys suck and if they die..well the only bad part is maybe they didn't give up enough intel that will save American lives.
*Applause*
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Also 240 not one of these people are worth the lives of u or ur kids...and all the mil guys here will make sure u get to say what u want for a long time.
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Also 240 not one of these people are worth the lives of u or ur kids...and all the mil guys here will make sure u get to say what u want for a long time.
While I don't agree with jaguar, I still would like to ask you how you would justify torture of innocent people?
-Hedge
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Who says their innocent..these guys are all pretty much guilty of something and after 911 we will not take any chances.
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Who says their innocent..these guys are all pretty much guilty of something and after 911 we will not take any chances.
HH, there's a whole group of people in the US that aren't comfortable with torture. They're not all liberals and they're not all socialists or commie pinko scum. Some of us still think that we're better than that. Still think that resorting to the methods of those that we condemn in this instance makes us no better than them. Perhaps we're all naive or perhaps we're clinging to some antiquated idea that doesn't hold much value but does that make us wrong or un-American?
9/11 changed our feelings of invincibility, getting attacked on our own land in such a vicious manner was devestating but I for one don't think that should change what we are and who we are. Again, maybe that's an antiquated notion but it's still one that many people believe in.
BTW, nice job admitting the oil agenda in Iraq. I'm sure a lot of posters here respect the fact that you can admit to it.
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hh6,
I think many here are 'okay' with the US policy of pre-emptive attacks on oil-rich nations to keep us #1.
You don't mug a homeless guy, know what I mean? ;)
But our problem lies in abuses. You can have the war on terror without torture. You can have it without letting Haliburton defraud the govt repeatedly. You can have it without mailing anthrax to govt buildings to bypass debating the patriot act.
They want to do what needs to be done, fine. But seriously, what is a 21-year old idiot at Gitmo, whose only job was to fire a rifle at the northern Alliance, going to tell us in 2007 that matters? It's the fraud and corruption that turn people off.
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I agree about balance. Also I'm going to heaven bro..12 year stretch in Catholic school ensures entrance :P
I think this point in an interesting one. I've heard neoconservatives here say that liberals don't go to heaven, and I have to laugh.
Would any of you want to stand before St. peter and say that torture is cool? That you're fine with a hundred thousand dead civilians over there because you wanted cheaper oil prices?
I mean, sure, maybe everyone really is okay with it, maybe not. But when you put it into words, do you REALLY have the utmost confidence that the good Lord will just laugh it off and say "better you than them, dog!"?
I dunno. Perhaps I retain this moral uncertainly because while I know what is best for nation is best for me - including global imperialism - I don't feel right telling others (or myself) that I have the moral high ground in this situation.
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hh6,
I think many here are 'okay' with the US policy of pre-emptive attacks on oil-rich nations to keep us #1.
You don't mug a homeless guy, know what I mean? ;)
But our problem lies in abuses. You can have the war on terror without torture. You can have it without letting Haliburton defraud the govt repeatedly. You can have it without mailing anthrax to govt buildings to bypass debating the patriot act.
They want to do what needs to be done, fine. But seriously, what is a 21-year old idiot at Gitmo, whose only job was to fire a rifle at the northern Alliance, going to tell us in 2007 that matters? It's the fraud and corruption that turn people off.
Are you a supporter of a conquering-type of policy, conquering whatever resources that USA has needs for?
-Hedge
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Are you a supporter of a conquering-type of policy, conquering whatever resources that USA has needs for?
-Hedge
I don't know.
As a guy who grew up with 12 years of Catholic school, who sees the horrors we're inflicting, absolutely not.
As a guy who understands global economics and the diminishing role of US influence (thanks to our own actions) and the advent of technology making making several second-tier nations threats to my way of life, then yes.
If we don't force iraq to sell us their oil, a harder-working, more efficient China will convince them to do so voluntarily. And our economy will suffer, my family will suffer, and eventually, whether is be in 20 years or 50 or 100 years, China or india or Russia will do exactly what we're doing today, and bring imperialism to US soil. THEY will be the ones using WMD bullshit to install regime change here.
I don't know what I believe anymore. I know 911 was their catalyst, and I believe it should have been a victimless attack on a US resource abroad instead of 2971 dead people who did nothing but go to work that day. But as far as US imperialism, I am torn. I know it's wrong. but I know it's needed to maintain our way of life and global position. It's a tough issue.
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In the short term i'm ok with doing what needs to be done to secure our stategic goals..IE oil..BUT I would much prefer that Bush gets up one day with some bespeckled nerd next to him and announces that we have found a better way to manufacture and produce ethenol and detroit and the oil companies have bought off on it...thus we are pulling out of the middle east....have a nice day..go back to farming dirt. :)
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In the short term i'm ok with doing what needs to be done to secure our stategic goals..IE oil..BUT I would much prefer that Bush gets up one day with some bespeckled nerd next to him and announces that we have found a better way to manufacture and produce ethenol and detroit and the oil companies have bought off on it...thus we are pulling out of the middle east....have a nice day..go back to farming dirt. :)
Their oil WILL run out. When it does, we treat em like any other African nation and let them kill each other. They will be darfurs and we will not care about shit.
On a plus, this year's planted ethanol crop is the biggest since WWII. Looks like they're putting the infrastructure in place to replace oil. Maybe the lack of American support for these oil wars means iran's oil isn't on the menu after all?
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Look at Africa....EG or equitorial Guine (not spelled right) has about 1.8 bilion barrels plus in some of her off-shore oil fields and we have all the contracts..they won't deal with Europe. Its all sweet crude and its easier to get to the US. They are saying it will be the Kuwait of Africa in ten years.
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I don't know.
As a guy who grew up with 12 years of Catholic school, who sees the horrors we're inflicting, absolutely not.
As a guy who understands global economics and the diminishing role of US influence (thanks to our own actions) and the advent of technology making making several second-tier nations threats to my way of life, then yes.
If we don't force iraq to sell us their oil, a harder-working, more efficient China will convince them to do so voluntarily. And our economy will suffer, my family will suffer, and eventually, whether is be in 20 years or 50 or 100 years, China or india or Russia will do exactly what we're doing today, and bring imperialism to US soil. THEY will be the ones using WMD bullshit to install regime change here.
I don't know what I believe anymore. I know 911 was their catalyst, and I believe it should have been a victimless attack on a US resource abroad instead of 2971 dead people who did nothing but go to work that day. But as far as US imperialism, I am torn. I know it's wrong. but I know it's needed to maintain our way of life and global position. It's a tough issue.
Do you believe one country has the right to secure its future on the expense on other countries?
-Hedge
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Yep, ...that's pretty messed up, ...but I suppose it's better that they hang someone they have proof against, as opposed to some countries who jerk themselves off claiming to be civilized yet will condone and/or justify the murder of those someone merely suspects may be gay, ...or who will systematically, rape, torture and sodomize innocent liitle children in the name of freedom.
Why don't you stick at selling shit on ebay from your 1 bedroom instead of trying to antagonize?
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Do you believe one country has the right to secure its future on the expense on other countries?
-Hedge
Good question.......it has served us well as its served the all of Europe at one time or another. Its how its done....and bro I just don't have a problem with it. I won't hedge on this.....I feel that ur safety as well as most of the folks on this board is much more important then some of the folks we roll over..what country are u in?
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Do you believe one country has the right to secure its future on the expense on other countries?
No. But I understand that most nations do it. They will try to use their available resources to secure strategic advantages. The US' available resources include a propaganda/evidence mnfg machine capable of selling a WMD story, and the military might to enforce a fake solution to the fake problem.
It ain't right.
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Good question.......it has served us well as its served the all of Europe at one time or another. Its how its done....and bro I just don't have a problem with it. I won't hedge on this.....I feel that ur safety as well as most of the folks on this board is much more important then some of the folks we roll over..what country are u in?
Hedge is from Europe. He sees US imperialism for what it is: One country taking another country's shit.
We have an emotional attachment, as we are benefitting from this imperialism, living beyond our nat'l means and robbing oil rich suckers to stay afloat.
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Good question.......it has served us well as its served the all of Europe at one time or another. Its how its done....and bro I just don't have a problem with it. I won't hedge on this.....I feel that ur safety as well as most of the folks on this board is much more important then some of the folks we roll over..what country are u in?
I am totally against it.
And it's not only because it goes against all kinds of democratic values that the Western Civilization is built on, but also because I believe for to create the safest possible place to live in, all countries needs to be doing well, and to suck out resources out of other nations, will only make them poor, instable and a base for terrorism and potential enemies.
It's basic utiliarism on a macro level.
-Hedge
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Good post Jag... yea, like Bill Maher said the other day, it's not exactly like we have the moral high ground to talk anymore, "what are you going to tell us? We‚re doing it wrong?"
MAHER: Yeah, now that they have British hostages, you know. And, of course, they have the moral high ground with this because they can say, well, you know, if you accuse us of torturing these people, what are you going to tell us? We‚re doing it wrong? [laughter] [applause]
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It's basic utiliarism on a macro level.
The decision makers here think on a micro level. Partially because the leaders of other near-superpowers do it, and partially because they would rather have their 300 mil live "very" well, and 3 billion starving, than all 3.3 billion living "pretty" well.
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Hedge is from Europe. He sees US imperialism for what it is: One country taking another country's shit.
We have an emotional attachment, as we are benefitting from this imperialism, living beyond our nat'l means and robbing oil rich suckers to stay afloat.
Oh Europe....which country that was once powerful but has lost all her COLONIES IN 3RD WORLD COUNTRIES and now has to take a backseat to America. Europe in drenched in the blood of Africa, Asia and South America...they responsible for genocides big and small on almost every continent. They wish they could do what we do....American imperialsim keeps them safe from Islam..it kept them safe from the Russian Bear..it helped defeat the Nazis and the Kaiser..it rebuilt economies and its been a stable economic power for them all to rely on. I value hedge and his opinions but please..nobody from Europe need lecture us on imperialism.
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Oh Europe....which country that was once powerful but has lost all her COLONIES IN 3RD WORLD COUNTRIES and now has to take a backseat to America. Europe in drenched in the blood of Africa, Asia and South America...they responsible for genocides big and small on almost every continent. They wish they could do what we do....American imperialsim keeps them safe from Islam..it kept them safe from the Russian Bear..it helped defeat the Nazis and the Kaiser..it rebuilt economies and its been a stable economic power for them all to rely on. I value hedge and his opinions but please..nobody from Europe need lecture us on imperialism.
Europe is not a country.
Seriously, it's not.
-Hedge
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Let me make things clear so nobody gets me wrong..I'm a US citizen..I wear the uniform of her Armed forces....I could give a shit less about the enemy or whats fair..i care about the United States. I know we make mistakes...in most cases those who made them..such as in 240's last post will pay..but its war and things happen. And I only care about those mistakes in the context that they will put our soldiers in harms way, such as in Abu Garib. I really don't care we tortured these people beacuse I know they would do far worse to me or you. I want the war to end and I want the guys to come home..victorious..Iraq stable and the oil secured. I care about Iraq only in our stategic best interest as i do about any other country. Anything less would be naive. I could care less about Iran or her people
That was the original thinking that got us into this fukkackta mess to begin with. I just love how people are using Iraq & Iran interchangeably these days. Wasn't that the original strategy after 911. Repeating 911, bin Laden and Saddam Hussein often enough, that within 6 months the president was able to say "I don't know where he is and I don't give him much thought". The focus shifted off OBL, and increasingly went to Saddam. now that he's dead, now it's slipping Iran in there. Do you really have such low opinions of the American people's ability to figure out what you're doing? Wait... don't bother answering that... I think I already know the answer to it.
...Its like playing football and worriing about the other team..I care about my team....
This is NOTHING like a game of football. WAKE THE FVCK UP!
Football is a game. Afterwhich everyone goes home.
Is that how you live with seeing men die everyday?
...equating the destruction to a football game? :o :o :o
Jag unless u post facts don't say insurgents die all the time in our prisons because its not true. Not only that..these guys suck and if they die..well the only bad part is maybe they didn't give up enough intel that will save American lives.
When did I say insurgents die all the time in your prisons?
I said PEOPLE are dying. You have a hell of a nerve talking about the "enemy"
YOU DON'T EVEN A FVCKING CLUE AS TO WHO THE ENEMY IS!!!!!
This I know, ...cause if you did, you'd have been on them like white on rice and stopped this insanity in a heartbeat.
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Europe is not a country.
Seriously, it's not.
-Hedge
It's interesting when the military folks here make some of the most elementary of mistakes.
perhaps it is in the best interest of the military if those taking bullets and giving limbs for their cause are somewhat unaware.
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Europe is not a country.
Seriously, it's not.
-Hedge
I talked to one british tourist at a bar and he said the european union was pretty much like one single country, with a lot of the laws being made in Belgium.
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Um..I ment which country in Europe.....anyway Jag..shut the hell up..thanks.
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I talked to one british tourist at a bar and he said the european union was pretty much like one single country, with a lot of the laws being made in Belgium.
Actually, if your country is part of the EU, you can move and live anywhere in the EU, and a lot of laws are made up in Brussels.
But the most important part, taxation, is for each and every country to decide.
But all in all, the European Union is an enormous success, the original idea was to prevent Germany and France from ever go into war again, and that goal has long been reached.
Economic prosperity for the EU members was for a long time a secondary goal, and the reason for including economically weaker eastern bloc countries isn't primarily to boost the economic strength of the EU, but rather to make sure the stability is further established.
But nobody can deny that the EU is an economic success. The former eastern bloc countries that has been included have revitalized their economies, and even such lost causes as Romania and Bulgaria have a good outlook in the next 10 years.
As far as I am concerned: I can't understand why there are US citizens opposing an North American Union with Canada, USA and Mexico. That could perhaps finally drag Mexico out of the hole, and make Canada, USA and Mexico an awesome trinity.
Well, actually I understand the resistance. But I urge anyone who is against a NA union, to see the success EU had with including very poor countries, and their extreme economical, democratical and educational rise.
-Hedge
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Um..I ment which country in Europe.....anyway Jag..shut the hell up..thanks.
My bad. I misunderstood.
Let me just comment on the topic title of this thread.
"These Iranians clearly are a very uncivilised bunch"
While I believe it's perfectly ok to critisize the USA and any other country in the Western Civilization, it's NOT ok to have double standards.
Double standards?
What I mean, is that Iran cannot even be remotedly described as a democracy for a number of reasons. The biggest obviously being that the religious leader is the HNIC.
To suggest that Iran are more humane and decent than USA? C'mon now, fcuk that. Cut. The. Fcuking. Crap.
So please jaguar: Stop glorifying whoever is against Bush. That's not making a serious argument.
Instead, lets have a serious discussion about the wrong choices that the most powerful man in the world, Bush, are doing.
No need for Bush to call Iran a part of the axis of evil either. That's just bullshit. That's not being serious. That only shows the level of intelligence at the White House currently.
I mean, WTF? What gives Bush the right to label all those people living in Iran as evil? How the fcuk does he know whether they are "evil" or not?
What a fcuking clown. That statement is well on par with anything Chavez spews about "Mister Bush".
There are big problems with Iran. And Iran obviously needs reform. How to best reach that?
By branding an entire nation as "evil"? And threatening to go to war with said nation?
Yeah, right.
USA is the most powerful nation in the world, and will be for a long time.
We need a President who can lead the world in the right direction.
Giuliani and Edwards are two guys who could do it.
My guess is that these two will fight for the Presidency, and both would make good world leaders IMO.
-Hedge
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a nation is what it leader makes it so yes, Iran right now is a EVIL nation and one VERY dangerous to the united states of america. We should cut its head off NOW instead of LATER.
I implore our leader, snuff this country out NOW!
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Do you believe one country has the right to secure its future on the expense on other countries?
-Hedge
That's a great question. Anyone supporting the commandeering of Iraqi oil is explicitly repudiating any claim to supporting a "free market."
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a nation is what it leader makes it so yes, Iran right now is a EVIL nation and one VERY dangerous to the united states of america. We should cut its head off NOW instead of LATER.
I implore our leader, snuff this country out NOW!
Do you support democracy?
-Hedge
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Do you support democracy?
-Hedge
i support bitch slapping these nations around until they learn what decent humane behavior is all about.
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No problem hedge.....I'm not convinced about Rudy..and Edwards......I would not truly mind 4 years of Hilary..i think she can be a mean bitch.
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i support bitch slapping these nations around until they learn what decent humane behavior is all about.
LOL!
We torture people and hold them without charges.
You can justify our actions any way you wish, but to say we are a model of "decent humane behavior" is hilarioius.
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LOL!
We torture people and hold them without charges.
You can justify our actions any way you wish, but to say we are a model of "decent humane behavior" is hilarioius.
He's at least half-right.
USA is the land of the free. It is a bastion of freedom and democracy. Any large society will sooner or later face corruption or at least some problems IMO.
USA has a solid foundation, and will always self-cure. I'm positive that you'll see a couple of years with a more neutral president, be it Rep or Dem.
The balance of power has shifted to the Legislative branch, and will probably stay like that for a few years, just like in the end of the 70's.
-Hedge
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Thats the beauty of America......just wait and things will shift and as u said ..self cure.....more moderate one way or the other.
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Jag really needs to get herself an education, Hedge has humbled her into submission, now all he has to do is unzip his fly.
Jag, is this how civilization should be:
http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast&c=iran
You're a women, why would you chose to glorify a nation to fuel your anti-American bias when their dire human rights records almost always gravitate to womens rights?
You're obviously a submissive type that likes to be "controlled" aren't yah? :)
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Jag really needs to get herself an education, Hedge has humbled her into submission, now all he has to do is unzip his fly.
Jag, is this how civilization should be:
http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast&c=iran
You're a women, why would you chose to glorify a nation to fuel your anti-American bias when their dire human rights records almost always gravitate to womens rights?
You're obviously a submissive type that likes to be "controlled" aren't yah? :)
What nation have I glorified?
Many of you have no true knowledge of the countries or cultures you speak of.
I am all for women's rights, however, I do not believe aggressive wars waged against others has been conducted for that reason. You talk about islam being so backward, ...and I won't disagree, but I will say at one time, Islam was the most progressive and civilized when it came to women's rights for the longest time... far longer than western cultures. The brand of Islamic Fundamentalism that we see today, is a direct result of colonial empires messing around in the internal politics of those nations. I'd hazard to guess that if the CIA hadn't committed terrorism in Iran, the world wouldn't be dealing with Ayatollahs, and Israel wouldn't be terrified at the prospect of a strong prosperous nuclear nation in it's midst.
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What nation have I glorified?
Many of you have no true knowledge of the countries or cultures you speak of.
I am all for women's rights, however, I do not believe aggressive wars waged against others has been conducted for that reason. You talk about islam being so backward, ...and I won't disagree, but I will say at one time, Islam was the most progressive and civilized when it came to women's rights for the longest time... far longer than western cultures. The brand of Islamic Fundamentalism that we see today, is a direct result of colonial empires messing around in the internal politics of those nations. I'd hazard to guess that if the CIA hadn't committed terrorism in Iran, the world wouldn't be dealing with Ayatollahs, and Israel wouldn't be terrified at the prospect of a strong prosperous nuclear nation in it's midst.
False false false.
Islamic "fundamentalism" was with islam from it's interception, research it.
When does the islamic calendar start? Muhammads birth? Muhammad's death? No, at the point when muhammad became a leader and islam became a political ideology.
Aah, jihadist tendencies of muslims only arose because of the empires... FALSE again. Read the koran, read your islamic history.
Womens rights respected for a duration longer than the wests'? Where's you evidence of this? ??? Totally fictitious. I could start with the Romans, Greeks, you name it and produce an argument that would blow yours out of the water.
Slave girls being raped, polygamy etc all supported by the infallible law of god sounds like quite the life style to you. Maybe you should move to a country where sharia law is implemented? You can then see their great moral standards, their great foresight into why the west is so bad etc.
Now take a look at your post... the bad points you make about the middle east/islam are results of "meddling" by the west/Israel. Completely LAUGHABLE.
You're a joker, your posts are pseudo intelligent drivel with no substances having no support from historical FACTS, REFERENCES or anything else that actually supports your arguments.
Serious, get an education.
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So jaguarenterprises are you going to accept the points you made previously are ficticious or are you going to provide some EVIDENCE? Let me guess... you'll just continue spreading false truths right? :-\
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What nation have I glorified?
Many of you have no true knowledge of the countries or cultures you speak of.
I am all for women's rights, however, I do not believe aggressive wars waged against others has been conducted for that reason. You talk about islam being so backward, ...and I won't disagree, but I will say at one time, Islam was the most progressive and civilized when it came to women's rights for the longest time... far longer than western cultures. The brand of Islamic Fundamentalism that we see today, is a direct result of colonial empires messing around in the internal politics of those nations. I'd hazard to guess that if the CIA hadn't committed terrorism in Iran, the world wouldn't be dealing with Ayatollahs, and Israel wouldn't be terrified at the prospect of a strong prosperous nuclear nation in it's midst.
When Islam was introduced by Muhammed (PBUH), the situation for women was very much improved.
But, and here's the main thing, they were NEVER made equals.
No matter how much you argue how Islam improved the situation for women back then, it is still not a religion that have room for equality between the sexes.
You see, the Quran is the words of Allah, and thus infallible. Islam can't really change over time.
Let me address your points regarding the Ayatollahs and Israel: I think you are quite right. Sucking countries like Iraq and Iran dry for resources will move them towards some way to fight for independence, meddling in their internal affairs likewise.
That I think you're right about this analysis, doesn't mean I for one second support or condone a regime in a country like Iran eg.
Of course USA needs to attack Iran. But not with military means. The attack needs to be a democracy effort, over a longer period. Trying to influence Iran becoming more secular.
Once again, as I stated before: Just because someone is against USA, doesn't give them some carte blanche. Everyone is equally accountable.
I think G W Bush is a really bad president, he excells in mediocrisy.
Ahmadinejad is much more intelligent. But due to his ideological beliefs, he makes Bush seems like the best president in the history in comparison.
Just look at what Ahmadinejad has accomplished:
*He promised less corruption. Did it happen? No.
*Iran's economy is going to shit, despite the oil.
*Foreign relations are fcuking up. Of course the Iranians will vote him out of office.
Bush is shit. But Ahmadinejad, he's a liability. Lets all hope that the good Iranian people elects a good president.
-Hedge
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So jaguarenterprises are you going to accept the points you made previously are ficticious or are you going to provide some EVIDENCE? Let me guess... you'll just continue spreading false truths right? :-\
Most left-wingers like Jag just parrot what they read on left-wing kook blogs. What you see on those blogs can be summarized in one sentence: Everything is America's and Israel's fault.
So, when someone like you confronts them with actual facts that contradict their bs, they crawl back into the closet.
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Most left-wingers like Jag just parrot what they read on left-wing kook blogs. What you see on those blogs can be summarized in one sentence: Everything is America's and Israel's fault.
who the fck brought up israel?
i hate it when people try to discredit a speaker by just randomly throwing in israel to conjure up thought associations with the holocaust, then suddenly anyone who disagrees with you is a doubter and cricified in the media.
keep that israel shit out of debates.
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Most left-wingers like Jag just parrot what they read on left-wing kook blogs. What you see on those blogs can be summarized in one sentence: Everything is America's and Israel's fault.
So, when someone like you confronts them with actual facts that contradict their bs, they crawl back into the closet.
True, true.
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Most left-wingers like Jag just parrot what they read on left-wing kook blogs. What you see on those blogs can be summarized in one sentence: Everything is America's and Israel's fault.
So, when someone like you confronts them with actual facts that contradict their bs, they crawl back into the closet.
Sure feels nice inside to wake up in the morning loving your country instead of hating it and blaming it for all the worlds problems. Heck, if i felt that way, i'd move.
But hell, the united states of america is like living in disney world compared to the rest of the world.
Wake up folks, you could be canadian! *shudder*
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When Islam was introduced by Muhammed (PBUH), the situation for women was very much improved.
But, and here's the main thing, they were NEVER made equals.
Women have NEVER been made equals in ANY culture, ...including our own. We all have a long way to go.
The only possible exception I can think of from the annals of ancient history was the society of Crete
No matter how much you argue how Islam improved the situation for women back then, it is still not a religion that have room for equality between the sexes.
I completely agree with you
You see, the Quran is the words of Allah, and thus infallible. Islam can't really change over time.
{LOL} Who knows? ...perhaps one day they may even follow the Christian lead whereby the infallible word is subject to interpretation where conveniently expeditious. :P
Let me address your points regarding the Ayatollahs and Israel: I think you are quite right. Sucking countries like Iraq and Iran dry for resources will move them towards some way to fight for independence, meddling in their internal affairs likewise.
That I think you're right about this analysis, doesn't mean I for one second support or condone a regime in a country like Iran eg.
My observation or understanding of the situation also does not necessarily mean I support or condone the regime either, ...however, I'm not about to swallow wholesale the preposterous lie that hostility is based on 'jealousy'.
I think potential problems can be averted by refraining to meddle in their affairs with such myopic and ill-thought strategies destined to fail, and produce repercussions of an even more unwanted nature.
Of course USA needs to attack Iran. But not with military means. The attack needs to be a democracy effort, over a longer period. Trying to influence Iran becoming more secular.
That would certainly be a wiser approach, ...however, I doubt the current leaders possess the wisdom to do this without creating even more problems for the region or it's own citizens
Once again, as I stated before: Just because someone is against USA, doesn't give them some carte blanche. Everyone is equally accountable.
I think G W Bush is a really bad president, he excells in mediocrisy.
Ahmadinejad is much more intelligent. But due to his ideological beliefs, he makes Bush seems like the best president in the history in comparison.
I don't know about that... I think the annals of history will not be kind to Bush
Just look at what Ahmadinejad has accomplished:
*He promised less corruption. Did it happen? No.
*Iran's economy is going to shit, despite the oil.
*Foreign relations are fcuking up. Of course the Iranians will vote him out of office.
Alot of that has to do with pressure mounted from the west, ...but what can one expect from a hard right leader?
We all know what colossal screw-ups hard right conservatives are. {lol} :P
Bush is shit. But Ahmadinejad, he's a liability. Lets all hope that the good Iranian people elects a good president.
-Hedge
The challenge here is that whatever the west opposes for Islamic countries tends to be vigourously embraced by their populace. Iran was not fundamentalist until they rejected the wholesale corruption, and the brutal despotic dictator regime put in place by the CIA.
I believe allowing a society to develop on it's own without interference will lead to co-operation in everyone's overall best interests, ...unfortunately, some countries have been so mentally imprisoned by a legacy that dictates they must succeed on the backs of others and at the expense of others. Mutual co-operation is so foreign a concept to them, and the legacy of racism that victimizes them, creates a moral disconnect, when determining what is acceptable when dealing with other countries. And they unfortunately rally their populations accordingly in order to discourage or curtail any natural dissent from within their own population for any crimes that may be on the agenda. Then they're shocked to discover that not everyone wants to bow down and worship at their feet... imagine that! ::)
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women aren't equal
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who the fck brought up israel?
What nation have I glorified?
Many of you have no true knowledge of the countries or cultures you speak of.
I am all for women's rights, however, I do not believe aggressive wars waged against others has been conducted for that reason. You talk about islam being so backward, ...and I won't disagree, but I will say at one time, Islam was the most progressive and civilized when it came to women's rights for the longest time... far longer than western cultures. The brand of Islamic Fundamentalism that we see today, is a direct result of colonial empires messing around in the internal politics of those nations. I'd hazard to guess that if the CIA hadn't committed terrorism in Iran, the world wouldn't be dealing with Ayatollahs, and Israel wouldn't be terrified at the prospect of a strong prosperous nuclear nation in it's midst.
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....But Ahmadinejad, he's a liability. Lets all hope that the good Iranian people elects a good president.
-Hedge
Ahmadinejad is not Iran's supreme leader. He is second in command to Ali Khamenei. That is the man we have to worry about. Ahmadinejad answers to Ali Khamenei. Iran has secular aspects to its political organization but the religious people still have final word.
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Ahmadinejad is not Iran's supreme leader. He is second in command to Ali Khamenei. That is the man we have to worry about. Ahmadinejad answers to Ali Khamenei. Iran has secular aspects to its political organization but the religious people still have final word.
Exactly, and tipping the balance in favour of a more secular society will not occur by systematically undermining the secular aspects of that society. If anything, you strengthen it.
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loco, a passing reference does not an inclusion make. ::) You chose your name wisely. ;)
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loco, a passing reference does not an inclusion make. ::) You chose your name wisely. ;)
I was simply answering 240's question. ???
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who the fck brought up israel?
I'd hazard to guess that if the CIA hadn't committed terrorism in Iran, the world wouldn't be dealing with Ayatollahs, and Israel wouldn't be terrified at the prospect of a strong prosperous nuclear nation in it's midst.
lol, Loco
Uh, 240, perhaps when you're done watching Oprah, you might wanna consider a retraction.
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Still no evidence for your ficticious points Jag.
A retraction would also be acceptable.
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Ahmadinejad is not Iran's supreme leader. He is second in command to Ali Khamenei. That is the man we have to worry about. Ahmadinejad answers to Ali Khamenei. Iran has secular aspects to its political organization but the religious people still have final word.
Actually, Ahmadinejad is currently third in rank. Hashemi Rafsanjani was elected to a power position close to Khamenei a few months ago, and is second HNIC.
The ayatollah's are also fed up with Ahmadinejad.
Word is, that the ayatollah's ordered the release of the british sailors, and in order to not be humiliated, Ahmadinejad handled it all, managed to turn it into a complete PR victory.
-Hedge
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Still no evidence for your ficticious points Jag.
A retraction would also be acceptable.
Jag's argument seems to be that the U.S messing around with the politics of Middle-Eastern countries is the source of all the woes of those countries.
Well, we've messed around with the politics of Germany and Japan, too. Yet, somehow these countries seeming to be doing quite well.
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Actually, Ahmadinejad is currently third in rank. Hashemi Rafsanjani was elected to a power position close to Khamenei a few months ago, and is second HNIC.
The ayatollah's are also fed up with Ahmadinejad.
Word is, that the ayatollah's ordered the release of the british sailors, and in order to not be humiliated, Ahmadinejad handled it all, managed to turn it into a complete PR victory.
-Hedge
Not really a PR victory when its revealed the Iranians forced the british sailors to say they were in Iranian waters and used methods of TORTURE to achieve those statements.
But I guess its more popular to hate britain and heap praise on Iran much as its more popular to side with terrorists instead of american troops.
Just rather sad.
Your a good mod though hedge, very knowledgeable and fair.
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But I guess its more popular to hate britain and heap praise on Iran much as its more popular to side with terrorists instead of american troops.
Just rather sad.
Just more bullshit thrown out by people like you. Tell me who's praising Iran and siding with terrorists? And if those sailors were indeed in Iran's water and someone happens to be critical it doesn't mean they're siding with terrorists. Some of us here don't want to wage war and escalate tensions higher than they already are.
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Just more bullshit thrown out by people like you. Tell me who's praising Iran and siding with terrorists? And if those sailors were indeed in Iran's water and someone happens to be critical it doesn't mean they're siding with terrorists. Some of us here don't want to wage war and escalate tensions higher than they already are.
From a neutral standpoint, ANY nation which goes inside that 12-mile ocean of another country DESERVES to have them locked up.
Just because england is an ally and iran is the devil... that doesn't change international law, nor should it change our support for its uniform enforcement.
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Jag's argument seems to be that the U.S messing around with the politics of Middle-Eastern countries is the source of all the woes of those countries.
Well, we've messed around with the politics of Germany and Japan, too. Yet, somehow these countries seeming to be doing quite well.
That is not my argument. I can speak for myself, I prefer you not attempt to interpret my words.
You lack the comprehension skills to even understand them, let alone clarify them for others.
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That is not my argument. I can speak for myself, I prefer you not attempt to interpret my words.
You lack the comprehension skills to even understand them, let alone clarify them for others.
I wish I had the comprehension to believe your false statements!
Why don't you just be the bigger person and accept that what you said could be wrong? ???
Are you that much of a lying coward? :-\