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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Mixed Martial Arts (MMA/UFC) => Topic started by: sandycoosworth on April 15, 2007, 01:08:30 PM
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the announcers kept saying he reversed lindland ... er no ... he held on to the ropes as lindland was taking him down which gave him the time to do an inside trip of sorts
i love the man, ive been his #1 guy on here for 4 years ... but that was not cool
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the announcers kept saying he reversed lindland ... er no ... he held on to the ropes as lindland was taking him down which gave him the time to do an inside trip of sorts
i love the man, ive been his #1 guy on here for 4 years ... but that was not cool
could anyone in UFC beat Fedor in your opinion, Jimmy?
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could anyone in UFC beat Fedor in your opinion, Jimmy?
that answer should be a positive "fuck no"
bench
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could anyone in UFC beat Fedor in your opinion, Jimmy?
fedor doesnt have a particulatily strong game when hes in the bottom of side or half guard ... at some point i could see him gettting held down and opened up if he faces the wrong guy
i doubt that guy would be a traditional UFC'er ... maybe somoen like josh barnett or a mirko with more ground game
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fedor doesnt have a particulatily strong game when hes in the bottom of side or half guard ... at some point i could see him gettting held down and opened up if he faces the wrong guy
i doubt that guy would be a traditional UFC'er ... maybe somoen like josh barnett or a mirko with more ground game
Are you kidding me? Fedor has beaten Coleman while on his back twice. Two beautifully exectued armbars from the guard. Did you see how he reversed Randleman and set up that wicked Kimura he finished the fight with. Don't you think both Coleman and Randleman are better wrestlers than Josh (although Josh is much better than either in subs), Ogawa is better at trips, takedowns than either and Mirko? How many guys has he gotten top position and held down? TUF NOOBness is strong here. The only way Fedor gets beaten is if someone catches him and KOs him. Fujita nearly had it but he allowed Fedor in his stupor to turn the corner and take his back. Nog cut him (albeit with a head butt) that opened a deep cut forcing a ref stoppage, TK same thing. But his balance is so good, he is great with Judo throws, he caught Matt with an uchimata attempt followed up with a beautiful left hook. Josh is a good wrestler/takedown guy, but he aint getting top position on Fedor, Mino couldn't, definitely not Mirko.
And if the alleged rope grabs changed the course of the fight, how many of Chuck's fights should be nullified. HE GRABS the fence against every fighter who attempts a takedown.
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one more time shithead
fedor doesnt have a particulatily strong game when hes in the bottom of side or half guard ...
not the bottom of guard, the bottom of side or the bottom of half guard
he was unable to escape when herring had him there (bell saved him)
he was unable to escape when hunt had him there (he gave his back to get out) ...
and if you think mark coleman and kevin randleman are better positional wrestlers on the ground than josh barnett youre a tool
thanks for "coming out"
chump
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the announcers kept saying he reversed lindland ... er no ... he held on to the ropes as lindland was taking him down which gave him the time to do an inside trip of sorts
i love the man, ive been his #1 guy on here for 4 years ... but that was not cool
Everybody cheats I guess. How many times has Chuck grabbed the cage to avoid getting slammed or do his eye pokes? Why you hating on just Fedor?
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yeah it was against the rules but who wouldn't have done that?
a loser that's who
E
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one more time shithead
not the bottom of guard, the bottom of side or the bottom of half guard
he was unable to escape when herring had him there (bell saved him)
he was unable to escape when hunt had him there (he gave his back to get out) ...
and if you think mark coleman and kevin randleman are better positional wrestlers on the ground than josh barnett youre a tool
thanks for "coming out"
chump
Yes I do think both Randleman and Coleman are better postional wrestlers than Josh. I have actually had the pleasure of working out with all of them. Josh's game has grown considerably, but his guard passing skills, particuarly from half guard isn't that leveraged based. He, like most catch guys, try to use explosive, athletic moves to extracate himself from postions. Both Kev and Mark are better athletically than Josh. His submission skills, set up, transisitions and defense is years better than either, but as a postional wrestler, both Kev and Mark are better. Randleman,stacks you, will make you eat elbow/forearm to open guard, will retreat, catch your ankles, and dive to pass, he will always sit out in keza which is where he becomes vulnerable. Coleman has a limited game, loves using the can opener to pass (where you can jump to his shoulders, and sweep) and has limited submission defense other than pure power. HMC, an offshoot of AMC is where I used to train. Josh, when he was coming up in Superbrawl, used to always stop by and see Haru. Instead of just pontificating about MMA, try training a while and come back here to talk.
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Its not cheating for crying out loud...The same way in boxing when a guy grabs the other guy and holds on...Its not cheating...Its part of the game...
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one more time shithead
not the bottom of guard, the bottom of side or the bottom of half guard
he was unable to escape when herring had him there (bell saved him)
he was unable to escape when hunt had him there (he gave his back to get out) ...
and if you think mark coleman and kevin randleman are better positional wrestlers on the ground than josh barnett youre a tool
thanks for "coming out"
chump
i didnt watched the fight YET, so im not going to say too much...but IF the only 'wrong' thing he did was to held himself on the ropes to avoid a takedown or something like it, im sorry but this is too much common...One of the things i was against 'pride type' of rings on the beggining...but as someone said, even on UFC people grab the fence...If lots of people do it, Fedor can do it too...
You know, you have a valid point...On the fight Minotauro opened Fedorīs head with the headbut, i was thinking he (minota) was a lot better in the fight and could 'maybe' win that...he was a lot more active while on the ground but its all assumptions..
BUT, with Hunt it was different...it was the first time i saw Fedor really on trouble, if Hunt had 50% of sub skills that Minotauro has, he would have won that fight. Its difficult to say if Fedor allowed that position because he wasnt afraid of Huntīs ground game, OR if he underestimaded him and got on that position...Yes he gave his back wich would be a death-wish against a Jiu Jitsu guy for instance...
I already told this here, one of the weak points i see on Fedor is his guard...He open it A LOT while throwing his missile-like punches...I know its easy to talk, but if it was boxing, someone would already put him in trouble for that...
And yes, it would be very interesting to see Fedor working more from the guard, bottom position...its a thing he didnt saw it much as we did see him in other positions (but i have to say, on the Colemanīs fight i almost passed out when i saw that arm bar....i didnt even dreamed of that coming !!!! :o)
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Yes I do think both Randleman and Coleman are better postional wrestlers than Josh. I have actually had the pleasure of working out with all of them. Josh's game has grown considerably, but his guard passing skills, particuarly from half guard isn't that leveraged based. He, like most catch guys, try to use explosive, athletic moves to extracate himself from postions. Both Kev and Mark are better athletically than Josh. His submission skills, set up, transisitions and defense is years better than either, but as a postional wrestler, both Kev and Mark are better. Randleman,stacks you, will make you eat elbow/forearm to open guard, will retreat, catch your ankles, and dive to pass, he will always sit out in keza which is where he becomes vulnerable. Coleman has a limited game, loves using the can opener to pass (where you can jump to his shoulders, and sweep) and has limited submission defense other than pure power. HMC, an offshoot of AMC is where I used to train. Josh, when he was coming up in Superbrawl, used to always stop by and see Haru. Instead of just pontificating about MMA, try training a while and come back here to talk.
you dont seem grasp the difference between holding someone in your guard(most consider this a neutral position) and being in the bottom of side/half guard(bad position), research that and get back to me
josh would murder coleman and randleman on the ground, they are amreekan wrestlers, hes a catch wrestler ... u grasp the diff g? ... col and randleman are among the best takedown guys in the world, when they get top position they can hold it fairly well and under the right rules deliver the pain, but they are useless as a third tit from their backs and they do not seem to know even the basics of sub wrestling (as colemans tapping to the same friggen armbar twice, attempting to escape noga triagnle by standing up and randlemans ground wizardly against fedor, waterman, and his inability to get anythign going with lil ninja will attest to)
randleman will stack you and make you eat elbows... really? are there elbows in pride ... or are you talking about randleman 6 years ago when he was using his wrestling skills on guys who had little to no clue about the ground game ...
as for coleman, his guard pass was so good that against fedor he got armbarred twice for his efforts, and his ground game so technical that he decided to stand up and extend his arm against nog from the triangle :D ... how well did he do against shogun on the ground before he injured him with the takedown?
josh's win against nog, and even his loss as well as his performances agsint aleks and hunt show that in the past year his sub wrestling game has exploded ... ill concede that mark and kevin are superior at the ground game from a GnP perspective (although being much shorter gives them a n advantage there) but when it comes to advancing, maintaining and capitalizing on position they are not even in the same league as josh
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i didnt watched the fight YET, so im not going to say too much...but IF the only 'wrong' thing he did was to held himself on the ropes to avoid a takedown or something like it, im sorry but this is too much common...One of the things i was against 'pride type' of rings on the beggining...but as someone said, even on UFC people grab the fence...If lots of people do it, Fedor can do it too...
You know, you have a valid point...On the fight Minotauro opened Fedorīs head with the headbut, i was thinking he (minota) was a lot better in the fight and could 'maybe' win that...he was a lot more active while on the ground but its all assumptions..
BUT, with Hunt it was different...it was the first time i saw Fedor really on trouble, if Hunt had 50% of sub skills that Minotauro has, he would have won that fight. Its difficult to say if Fedor allowed that position because he wasnt afraid of Huntīs ground game, OR if he underestimaded him and got on that position...Yes he gave his back wich would be a death-wish against a Jiu Jitsu guy for instance...
I already told this here, one of the weak points i see on Fedor is his guard...He open it A LOT while throwing his missile-like punches...I know its easy to talk, but if it was boxing, someone would already put him in trouble for that...
And yes, it would be very interesting to see Fedor working more from the guard, bottom position...its a thing he didnt saw it much as we did see him in other positions (but i have to say, on the Colemanīs fight i almost passed out when i saw that arm bar....i didnt even dreamed of that coming !!!! :o)
when i saw fedor against nog and herring on the bottom i assumed he didnt reverse because it was late in the round and he wanted to let the bell do it for him .... but then when hunt had him down he had a few opportunities to take his guard back with no effort and he did nothing ... i am by no means an expert on sambo, but i get the impression they are more lax with positioning than bjj ...
we discussed him giving his back to hunt to escape, i dont think that was a carefully planned move he made by considering hunts lack of skills on the ground: thats how he esacpes bad positions cause he doesnt know proper technique (ie underhooks, knee to elbow, less basic sweeps) ..... i say this because when he was on the bottom against randleman after the first takedown he gave his back there too and almost got his neck broken for his troubles
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i see bottom postion against someone who can capitalize on it as his biggest problem ... not to say he will lose as i dont think that will happeen, but if it did thats how i see it going down ... m not so sure i see him getting KTFO cause his guard looked pretty solid to me when he fought crocop (i think he opens it agaisnt less profiecient strikers) .... but anyone can get caught right
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lastly as for him grabbing the ropes, before i get my head chewed off i want you all to take a minute and rewatch it ... this wasnt him grabbing it for a split second ... he was holding it in between his elbow and lat for about 6 seconds, even as the ref was trying to pry him off it ... then when lindland comited to the takedown fedor grabbed with his hand till the ref hit him and made him let go ... i know everyone would have done the same thing in that position, but that doesnt change the fact that the blatant cheating seriously altered the course of the fight ... lindland went from being in the top of (probably side) with a badly cut opponent to being on the bottom ... thats a HUGE difference
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the announcers kept saying he reversed lindland ... er no ... he held on to the ropes as lindland was taking him down which gave him the time to do an inside trip of sorts
i love the man, ive been his #1 guy on here for 4 years ... but that was not cool
anyone have a clip of this one?
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nevermind...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7bpeZOGYMTQ (http://youtube.com/watch?v=7bpeZOGYMTQ)
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it would be interesting to see what would have happened if Matt had clinched him nearer the centre of the ring. It looked like Fedor was going down hard, and Matt could have very well forced the first legit stoppage on Fedor. But we'll never know, at the end of the day the ref would have stood them up if he was that concerned about Fedor grabbing the ropes to gain control. Its not necessarily cheating, its called instinct
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it would be interesting to see what would have happened if Matt had clinched him nearer the centre of the ring. It looked like Fedor was going down hard, and Matt could have very well forced the first legit stoppage on Fedor. But we'll never know, at the end of the day the ref would have stood them up if he was that concerned about Fedor grabbing the ropes to gain control. Its not necessarily cheating, its called instinct
exactly!! its just natural to do that!
Jimmy you really know fuck all, this guy is just getting called out on this becasue of his dominance.
Fedor is much much more of a fighter than Lindland could dream to be.
As for your analysis of Fedor, he is comfortable everywhere, it was nice to see you read Sherdog and copy what other nerds say there.
ta ta
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ill be honest with you, ive never felt the urge to join Sherdog cos i hear so much shit about it. Is it informative or a waste of time?
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ill be honest with you, ive never felt the urge to join Sherdog cos i hear so much shit about it. Is it informative or a waste of time?
You don't have to join to read anything there. I go there all the time to read, but, never post.
As for Fedor cheating, I don't agree. Lindland grabs the bottom rope early in the match while chasing Fedor and because nothing came of it, nobody is talking about it. Lindland also hit Fedor in the back with heel kicks while on the ground as well as trying to grab his own shorts to prevent the armbar.
It was a fair fight I think with props going to Lindland for stepping up like he did regardless of the outcome.
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when i saw fedor against nog and herring on the bottom i assumed he didnt reverse because it was late in the round and he wanted to let the bell do it for him .... but then when hunt had him down he had a few opportunities to take his guard back with no effort and he did nothing ... i am by no means an expert on sambo, but i get the impression they are more lax with positioning than bjj ...
yeah, but you see, for me this is a very big problem EVEN for jiu jitsu guys...seems like when they are on a mma fight they give lots of spaces for the oponents (on the ground i mean)...i know this its necessary to throw punches or maybe to positioning but if you dont give space to your oponent and put pressure on him all the time when you are on top of him its a big weapon, on the physical and psicological aspect too
we discussed him giving his back to hunt to escape, i dont think that was a carefully planned move he made by considering hunts lack of skills on the ground: thats how he esacpes bad positions cause he doesnt know proper technique (ie underhooks, knee to elbow, less basic sweeps) ..... i say this because when he was on the bottom against randleman after the first takedown he gave his back there too and almost got his neck broken for his troubles
yeah, maybe he does this because he can do it very quickly so he doesnt seem to bother with the danger factor of the position...But Hunt got his arm twice if im not mistaken and watching the fight i just thought 'now he is f*cked' lol
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i see bottom postion against someone who can capitalize on it as his biggest problem ... not to say he will lose as i dont think that will happeen, but if it did thats how i see it going down ... m not so sure i see him getting KTFO cause his guard looked pretty solid to me when he fought crocop (i think he opens it agaisnt less profiecient strikers) .... but anyone can get caught right
yeah, with cro cop he was a lot more carefull, but cro cop was too...His fight with Big Daddy its a classic, but he stays open completely on most of the punches
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lastly as for him grabbing the ropes, before i get my head chewed off i want you all to take a minute and rewatch it ... this wasnt him grabbing it for a split second ... he was holding it in between his elbow and lat for about 6 seconds, even as the ref was trying to pry him off it ... then when lindland comited to the takedown fedor grabbed with his hand till the ref hit him and made him let go ... i know everyone would have done the same thing in that position, but that doesnt change the fact that the blatant cheating seriously altered the course of the fight ... lindland went from being in the top of (probably side) with a badly cut opponent to being on the bottom ... thats a HUGE difference
you are right he did it for a long time, it wasnt just a tiny thing...but once again, i saw LOTS and LOTS of guys do the same thing on pride, even putting their arms AROUND the ropes....One that comes to mind its Belfort vs Herring (correct if im wrong). Belfort had the double leg completely and Herring would only stay up if he had wings...he grab the ropes for a long time before the judges came
ps: just and observation, i loved that reversing Fedor did while falling on the ground...Very Fedor-esque! ;D
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ill be honest with you, ive never felt the urge to join Sherdog cos i hear so much shit about it. Is it informative or a waste of time?
Very commercial, and loads of Keyboard warriors with hidden agenda's, Tank posts drunk sometimes and thats funny!!
Loads of Tuf noobs who say things like Matt Serra cannot be beaten etc, they probably have seen 2 fights.
If you filter out the shit its ok, and has a fightfinder feature which is useful
Not as fun as this place!
ta ta
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Fedor's been watching too many Liddell fights. Granted it was a pretty bullshit move, I doubt it would have made much of a difference if Linland ended up on top after the takedown. Fedor reversed him without much a problem 2 minutes later.
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you dont seem grasp the difference between holding someone in your guard(most consider this a neutral position) and being in the bottom of side/half guard(bad position), research that and get back to me
josh would murder coleman and randleman on the ground, they are amreekan wrestlers, hes a catch wrestler ... u grasp the diff g? ... col and randleman are among the best takedown guys in the world, when they get top position they can hold it fairly well and under the right rules deliver the pain, but they are useless as a third tit from their backs and they do not seem to know even the basics of sub wrestling (as colemans tapping to the same friggen armbar twice, attempting to escape noga triagnle by standing up and randlemans ground wizardly against fedor, waterman, and his inability to get anythign going with lil ninja will attest to)
randleman will stack you and make you eat elbows... really? are there elbows in pride ... or are you talking about randleman 6 years ago when he was using his wrestling skills on guys who had little to no clue about the ground game ...
as for coleman, his guard pass was so good that against fedor he got armbarred twice for his efforts, and his ground game so technical that he decided to stand up and extend his arm against nog from the triangle :D ... how well did he do against shogun on the ground before he injured him with the takedown?
josh's win against nog, and even his loss as well as his performances agsint aleks and hunt show that in the past year his sub wrestling game has exploded ... ill concede that mark and kevin are superior at the ground game from a GnP perspective (although being much shorter gives them a n advantage there) but when it comes to advancing, maintaining and capitalizing on position they are not even in the same league as josh
You are talking apples and oranges. WHEN I ROLLED SUB grappling with Kevin, he stacked me, dropped his elbow/forearm across my throat. I under hooked his foot, he trapped it and JUMPED over me to pass. He sat out in Keza, I inched close, bumped him and ended up in Keza. I flatten, use shoulder pressure with to keep him down while he attempted to bench me off of him. When I rolled with Hammer, he stacks, attempts a can opener, I shift my hips, underhook his foot and SWEEP him. I couldn't sub either, but I was able to escape, and hold position for a time. (Both Kev and Mark are 25 lbs heavier than me). When I rolled with Josh when he was 21-23, he would give up position to attempt kneebars, footlocks, heel hooks. He wasn't content to sit in any one position, he was always attacking. Both Kev and Mark would use weight and strength to cause discomfort to pass, and then do some extremely athletic pass attempts. (Don't ever get side headlocked by Mark Coleman, he will rip your head off). If you are talking about holding someone down, then YES, Coleman and Randleman are better. If you are talking about a good ground game, Josh is years ahead. Fedor always gives up his back. He did against Arona, an ADCC superfight winner, and Arona couldn't finish. Coleman had his back, again couldn't finish.
I have rolled with Don Frye, Mark Coleman, Kevin Randleman, Egan Inoue, Enson Inoue, Jon Calvo, Yuki Nakai, Rumina Sato, Hayato Sakurai, Shinya Aoki, Relson Gracie, (whom I got my blue from), Royce Gracie, Royler Gracie, Rickson Gracie, Carlos Valente, Kai Garcia, etc.... I think I know what half guard postion is.
Your basic assertion is wrong, are you saying that the weight difference between Herring and Lindland won't make a difference, or the weight difference between Hunt and Lindland. BTW, how did both fights end. (Bell save or not) Did Hunt get subbed? How did Arona (AKA the Blanket) do against Fedor? Was he in trouble against Arona? Is Arona better than Lindland on the ground? I am not a Sambo expert, by any means. So I can't make judgements. Get in the gym and try and attempt some of what you speak against a really good freestyle wrestler. Josh's amateur backround isn't as decorated as Kev's or Coleman's. If you are talking control, amateur wrestlers are best (see Koshcheck). Subs, (I have to clarify again because reading comprehension isn't a stong point) Josh is much better. He has improved since working with Erik Paulson.
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ill be honest with you, ive never felt the urge to join Sherdog cos i hear so much shit about it. Is it informative or a waste of time?
The standup and grappling forums are pretty good. The Heavyweights forum has too many keyboard cowboys like this one who can't tell a heel hook from spider-guard. ::)
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The standup and grappling forums are pretty good. The Heavyweights forum has too many keyboard cowboys like this one who can't tell a heel hook from spider-guard. ::)
As opposed to your obvious vast wealth of knowledge and experience, right? ::) What level belt do you hold in BJJ? Surely you were a wrestler at least in high school, no?
How's the hay in that barn you're living in? They feedin' you well, kid? :D