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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: 240 is Back on April 19, 2007, 10:29:34 PM
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according to the US govt accountability office.
Very interesting. and 126,000 TOTAL contractors.
So in addition to the approx 160,000 fighting men we have there, we also have nearly 50,000 ADDITIONAL fighting forces. And withdrawl plans DON'T include them - they stay when we leave.
it's weird to think that for every 3 soldiers fighting in iraq, there is 1 guy who operates independently without restraint, unreported in areas unknown to reach our goals.
Seriously, those 2500 insurgents running around are fighting 210,000 US fighters (50k of which can do what they please)
Why haven't we crushed them beyond belief? ???
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3 Reasons
1.) Marine and Army grunts suck at their current mission. They are great fighting men but CQB and going door-to-door are not their forte.
2.) Sean D. Naylor : Clearly, non kinetic missions are not the panacea for the very credible and tangible threats that have been noted in this essay. The constancy of nation state ascension strategies in addition to asymmetrical and conventional warfighting threats only compound these threats in the current age of even more serious proliferation threats.
“We’ve got to get after developing friends and allies and proxies, because when you fight an insurgency, the best people to do this are the host countries, not American forces,” said Downing, a former Ranger.”
3.) Contractors are great but they have a different mission. They protect things more than anything else right now, but you are right in that they can kill indiscriminatly. 8)
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according to the US govt accountability office.
Very interesting. and 126,000 TOTAL contractors.
So in addition to the approx 160,000 fighting men we have there, we also have nearly 50,000 ADDITIONAL fighting forces. And withdrawl plans DON'T include them - they stay when we leave.
it's weird to think that for every 3 soldiers fighting in iraq, there is 1 guy who operates independently without restraint, unreported in areas unknown to reach our goals.
Seriously, those 2500 insurgents running around are fighting 210,000 US fighters (50k of which can do what they please)
Why haven't we crushed them beyond belief? ???
Because they dress like civilians and we have to be so damn careful to not harm a hair on the head of a civilian that it puts our troops at greater risk. The bomb at Hiroshima really ended things pretty quickly but we can't do that again. But for all of you that wanted this war won in 2 days, that really would be the only way. Instead its a long hard road, I for one am glad the president has the nuts in his sack to realize that early on. God bless our troops and our leader.
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Because they dress like civilians and we have to be so damn careful to not harm a hair on the head of a civilian that it puts our troops at greater risk.
Wrong.
They dress like civvies but they have power to kill and not be held accountable. They do wetwork we cannot do by world standards. They torture, snipe, and do 'whatever it takes' when we cannot.
They are the black ops.
To say 'they can't hurt a hair on civilians' is just dead wrong bro. they are able to do things our men cannot by law.
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Wrong.
They dress like civvies but they have power to kill and not be held accountable. They do wetwork we cannot do by world standards. They torture, snipe, and do 'whatever it takes' when we cannot.
They are the black ops.
To say 'they can't hurt a hair on civilians' is just dead wrong bro. they are able to do things our men cannot by law.
I think he meant that Haji dresses like a civilian and thus blends in with his bretheren. As far as contractors, they can do whatever. Seems like a fun job. 8)
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3 Reasons
1.) Marine and Army grunts suck at their current mission. They are great fighting men but CQB and going door-to-door are not their forte. ...
That's an excellent point.
Battling terrorism is a police matter and is not subject to a military solution. Our soldiers are not fighting a war. They are policing neighborhoods and trying to keep the peace in a burdgeoning civil war.
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I think he meant that Haji dresses like a civilian and thus blends in with his bretheren. As far as contractors, they can do whatever. Seems like a fun job. 8)
I'm on 3 Loritab because the hip hurts so much today, not sure what i meant. I'm sure i was backing bush though... 8)
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every week you hear new charges of contractors who will just waste 1-3 Iraqis at once, and use the "the made a move" card.
a few days back, prison planet had a crazy sotry about some contractors publicly joking to one another 'i'm going to kill someone tonight' then immediately being involved in a shady shooting.
They do what they want. Rooster, read about them. They're gangster.
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Ok...since u know nothing about these guys lets not make any judgements 240. Most if not all contractors are either ex SF/Seals..Delta or Rangers/Marines. These are generally folks that are pretty professional. Only one guy has been prosecuted for anything remotely connected to operations in Iraq as a contractor..violation of the Patriot act or something. The guys ur talking about Black Water/Triple Canopy/Dynacore are different then the Black ops subcontractors working for the CIA and other groups. The defense contractors cannot take part in offensive operations as part of their contracts. Several have......as part of the defense of a US/Iraqi rebuilding oragnization compound in 2004. I think that was shown on Discovery channel. They have fought with US troops when situations arrise. This is the new face of war...most of our contractors, the big three will pull out when we do. most have stated both publicly and privately that they will never operate at odds with US interests. Most if not all of their contracts are with the US government. Blackwater had over 600 million in government contracts in '05. They want to be able to build a unit that can be hired in battalion strength that the UN or whoever can rent to fight offensively. It is cheaper for us to use a company like this then it is to use soldiers in the same roll.
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Ok...since u know nothing about these guys lets not make any judgements 240. Most if not all contractors are either ex SF/Seals..Delta or Rangers/Marines. These are generally folks that are pretty professional. Only one guy has been prosecuted for anything remotely connected to operations in Iraq as a contractor..violation of the Patriot act or something. The guys ur talking about Black Water/Triple Canopy/Dynacore are different then the Black ops subcontractors working for the CIA and other groups. The defense contractors cannot take part in offensive operations as part of their contracts. Several have......as part of the defense of a US/Iraqi rebuilding oragnization compound in 2004. I think that was shown on Discovery channel. They have fought with US troops when situations arrise. This is the new face of war...most of our contractors, the big three will pull out when we do. most have stated both publicly and privately that they will never operate at odds with US interests. Most if not all of their contracts are with the US government. Blackwater had over 600 million in government contracts in '05. They want to be able to build a unit that can be hired in battalion strength that the UN or whoever can rent to fight offensively. It is cheaper for us to use a company like this then it is to use soldiers in the same roll.
I have said this so many times here but nobody seems to get it. You are right though, they are very useful. Blackwaters told me four years as a cop could get me in so I am def keeping that in mind.
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Yeah..what he's doing now is a 9 week..may have to check that, boot camp for guys like u in NC at the headquarters. After u make that then u will offered a spot. I have given it alot of thought but don't have the skill set to go directly in. There are things u can do to increase ur chances...smaller outfits first..course in hand guns and other shooting techniques..combat driving etc. Love to know how it works out. u could also do the dynacore thing as a police officer trainer in Afghanistan.
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Wait - you're saying that private military contractors are paid LESS than those in the Army?
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Wait - you're saying that private military contractors are paid LESS than those in the Army?
No. They have 6 month deployments with some getting 300 grand off the books.
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ahhhh, 2 more loritab...damn i need a new hip.
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It is cheaper for us to use a company like this then it is to use soldiers in the same roll.
I don't see how paying a contracter $300k a year is cheaper than paying an Army man 40k a year.
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I don't see how paying a contracter $300k a year is cheaper than paying an Army man 40k a year.
They are already highly trained and better at the current mission than any grunt. It costs money to train a soldier, but using already trained soldiers does cut expenses.
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They are already highly trained and better at the current mission than any grunt. It costs money to train a soldier, but using already trained soldiers does cut expenses.
I'd LOVE to see you quantify/verify this claim with real numbers.
Are you telling me it costss $250k+ to train an 18-year old kid for 3 months to do a job in iraq?
No...
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I'd LOVE to see you quantify/verify this claim with real numbers.
Are you telling me it costss $250k+ to train an 18-year old kid for 3 months to do a job in iraq?
No...
They spend 180K to train a border recruit.
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They spend 180K to train a border recruit.
how long does that training take?
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I'd LOVE to see you quantify/verify this claim with real numbers.
Are you telling me it costss $250k+ to train an 18-year old kid for 3 months to do a job in iraq?
No...
No but crunch these numbers
Average cost to train a recruit: $14,320
Lets use an example: 50,000 recruits (random number). $716,000,000 to train. Of thos 50,000 lets say the average income is $20,000 you are looking 1 billion $ right there. Multiply that by years spent in conflict in addition to those already serving. Also note that not all contractors are making 300 grand and not all of them are the type of contractors you are thinking of. Also note that contracts ar going down and have decreased sharply.
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Average cost to train a recruit: $14,320
So to put one army man in the field is $40k + 15k = 55k.
To put one contractor in is $250k to 400k.
Plus, you don't have to train every man every year. you can, but it's not required.
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how long does that training take?
it was a matter of months , saw a story on tv the other night about it.
ah hell, me thinks i'm gonna take my ailing him to the golf course .... i swing with pain.
have a good weekend folks, tell jag i love her. :-*
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So to put one army man in the field is $40k + 15k = 55k.
To put one contractor in is $250k to 400k.
Plus, you don't have to train every man every year. you can, but it's not required.
That amount is according to Wikipedia which I dont think is current but it is the most immediate source I could give you. Consider the amount of troops in the field and how many we are still training and it adds up. Again I say, contracts are going down.
If the average soldier made $30,000 a year, that would be 5 billion just in paying them their wage.
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according to the US govt accountability office.
Very interesting. and 126,000 TOTAL contractors.
So in addition to the approx 160,000 fighting men we have there, we also have nearly 50,000 ADDITIONAL fighting forces. And withdrawl plans DON'T include them - they stay when we leave.
it's weird to think that for every 3 soldiers fighting in iraq, there is 1 guy who operates independently without restraint, unreported in areas unknown to reach our goals.
Seriously, those 2500 insurgents running around are fighting 210,000 US fighters (50k of which can do what they please)
Why haven't we crushed them beyond belief? ???
blackwater is a good group with my full support,i have several friends working for them and have came very close to working for them myself
but as contractors they can only do so much,if they are not authorized to do something they simply cant do it.just like the rest of the military
but in the end the country is like a buisness,it can only go as far as the management allows and judging by our managment(bush) we are fucked ;D
bench
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I think the security companies employee Iraqis as well. How come they can train some asshole off of the streets of Baghdad when they're contractors and the world's most advanced military can't? ::) Looks like horrible management on the military's part when it comes to leaving behind a strong Iraqi police force.
They are already highly trained and better at the current mission than any grunt. It costs money to train a soldier, but using already trained soldiers does cut expenses.
Plus, I bet most of the mercs are older men over 30.
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I think the security companies employee Iraqis as well. How come they can train some asshole off of the streets of Baghdad when they're contractors and the world's most advanced military can't? ::) Looks like horrible management on the military's part when it comes to leaving behind a strong Iraqi police force.
Plus, I bet most of the mercs are older men over 30.
More experience.
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More experience.
Of course. And I bet they take care of their business without getting into stupid messes involving rape and murder. Hell, if it isn't too expensive, let's pull out and leave these guys in charge.
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So to put one army man in the field is $40k + 15k = 55k.
To put one contractor in is $250k to 400k.
Plus, you don't have to train every man every year. you can, but it's not required.
on paper it is cheaper, not in reality however. When they figure costs for military they figure in billeting, transporting etc....but for a contract it is one set cost and then the contractor picks up the tab out of that contract. For instance, in the air force if I send out my guys to repair the airfield we "charge" $47.50 an hour regardless of rank. So if I send out 4 guys for that, plus add in materials and a contractor says he can do it for $35 an hour then on paper they do it cheaper. Same sort of thing here, but the biggest reason we use civilians is for continuity. The contractor will be there to maintain continuity when military units are rotating in and out, just like we do in the states.
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I don't see how paying a contracter $300k a year is cheaper than paying an Army man 40k a year.
I'd love to see how those numbers work out. What could it possibly cost the military to have one trained soldier in Iraq, even if it's $250,000 which is 625% more than an annual income of $40,000 how does $300,000 or more work out to a savings?
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youtube has some pretty cool videos of some blackwater fights of Iraq.
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youtube has some pretty cool videos of some blackwater fights of Iraq.
yeah some of my buddies brought back videos looks fun,makes me want to get back into the game
bench
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Its pretty easy and it works like this......Blackwater contracts are fixed contracts...no more cash for mission creep. There is no paid insurance for the contractor or his family unless he takes his own out. The military gets his medical/his famlies medical and dental...the contractor gets smoked he gets exactly 65 grand insurance money from uncle sam under the BDA or base defense act passed by Congress. If i were to get smoked ..my family gets 400,000 plus 100 grand death bonus ::) and all unpaid allowances..plus up to 90 addtional days medical for the family and it might be longer. The contractor gets nothing. Most contractors get about 550 per day on 6 month contacts..depending on jobs u can look at 650-1000 per day plus about 65 bucks per diem. The logistics trail of the soldier is much longer. If a Blackwater guy eats in our chowhall....Blackwater pays the bill. The list is endless.....its just cheaper for a contractor to do what he does as opposed to a soldier doing the same job. These guys would not be in business if Uncle Sam was not seeing a reason to pay em. This is the way to go.
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Its pretty easy and it works like this......Blackwater contracts are fixed contracts...no more cash for mission creep. There is no paid insurance for the contractor or his family unless he takes his own out. The military gets his medical/his famlies medical and dental...the contractor gets smoked he gets exactly 65 grand insurance money from uncle sam under the BDA or base defense act passed by Congress. If i were to get smoked ..my family gets 400,000 plus 100 grand death bonus ::) and all unpaid allowances..plus up to 90 addtional days medical for the family and it might be longer. The contractor gets nothing. Most contractors get about 550 per day on 6 month contacts..depending on jobs u can look at 650-1000 per day plus about 65 bucks per diem. The logistics trail of the soldier is much longer. If a Blackwater guy eats in our chowhall....Blackwater pays the bill. The list is endless.....its just cheaper for a contractor to do what he does as opposed to a soldier doing the same job. These guys would not be in business if Uncle Sam was not seeing a reason to pay em. This is the way to go.
Interesting man.. We might as well pay these contractors to gaurd our interests while we pull out and let the Iraqis fucking kill each other. We'll take a foreign policy hit, but it's not like it'll be any worse than it is now. Seems like no amount of troops can keep them from being themselves so we might as well let them duke it out.
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I have a ton of books..ateast as many as I can get my hands on about mercenaries from the late 1940's on. This is just a continuation of the whole mercenary thing but put into a corporate structure. These companies and the ones in Great Britain will prosper so long as they don't come in conflict with their respective governments. The guy who runs BW is in very tight with the CIA and the conservative movement in America...the same can be said for the folks in GB. The whole idea fasinates me......
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I have a ton of books..ateast as many as I can get my hands on about mercenaries from the late 1940's on. This is just a continuation of the whole mercenary thing but put into a corporate structure. These companies and the ones in Great Britain will prosper so long as they don't come in conflict with their respective governments. The guy who runs BW is in very tight with the CIA and the conservative movement in America...the same can be said for the folks in GB. The whole idea fasinates me......
I bet those securities companies are managed by people with MBAs. That would explain how well they're managed as opposed to our military.
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Um well they had to hire folks once the money came pouring in. Blackwater made metal targets for pistol ranges. But the guy who owns it was well connected, ex-SEAL (no combat)and came from a family with plenty of money and a large corporate background. Some of these companies end up with multi million dollar contracts before they have more then two employees. There is a huge need for them by not only governments but private industry....The problems will come when the big multinationals hire them to pacify areas to pull out oil or other resources..u will have a well funded company fighting an insurgency without any rules......