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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: jonsande on May 22, 2007, 07:05:03 PM
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Yo all,
It seems as though I've hit a wall with my size. I can't get any larger than what I am. I'm getting desperate for some input, as well as thinking crazily enough to start doing research on stacking up on some roids.
Here's my deal:
I've been lifting seriously for just about 3 years, during my junior year of college. I'm 5'9", and when I started lifting, I weighed around 130 lbs and was a former long distance runner for track and cross country (so I was basically skinny as hell).
My primary training partner was a powerlifter, so I generally followed a powerlifting approach to bodybuilding and have since sort of changed it to a powerbodybuilding style...i.e. heavy basics but a little more inclusion of isolation exercises and volume.
I find that I'm gradually still getting stronger, but I can't seem to get any fucking bigger! Here's a prime example. Over the last year, I've bumped up my squatting from a 325 one rep max to doing a working sets of 315, 320, yet there's almost no size increase or cuts in my thighs. And this is real squatting; no partials. Ass to the grass.
Same for deadlifting. About this time a year ago, I could only get 315 up once. Now, I do working sets of about 6 to 8 reps with 320, 325 lbs. Any noticeable changes in back thickness? Not really.
All of my exercises are heavier than ever, both my core lifts and my isolations. I can curl a 100lb barbell for reps, hammer curl 55lb dumbells for reps, just about stack the entire machine for straight bar tricep pushdowns and etc - all in very clean form, but my arms only measure 15.5 inches around not pumped.
What the hell is going on here? I'm really frustrated. Several of my friends and lifting partners have noticeably more muscle mass than I do, but I'm undesputedly stronger than some of them still. This shit ain't adding up.
I've been stuck at 180-185 lbs for about the last year, maybe even year and a half. I want some damn size for all of my blood, sweat, and tears in the gym. I train regularly and consistently, I don't overtrain and take a training break if I feel I'm close to overtraining; I get plenty of sleep and protein, and my diet is relatively clean.
The only thing I can think of is that I'm not getting enough protein, but that seems highly unlikely as I normally eat a heavy protein meal at least 5 times a day. I'm guessing that I get just about a gram of protein per pound on average, maybe a little less. No less than 120, 130 grams a day which I've been told from plenty of highly credible sources is plenty of you're not on gear.
Any ideas? Will the size eventually come as long as I continue to make strength gains? Do I just have shit genetics? I pretty much don't look like I even lift when I'm covered up, or even when I have a loose t shirt on.
Help, dammit! If any of you need any further details, like a training log or daily diet sample, I'll post them. Thanks GBers!
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50lb gain in 3 years as a natural and you're complaining ??? You make your best gains when you start out, don't expect this rate of gain to continue!
How many total calories are you eating/day?
Your weights & strength are going up, so that suggests that you are putting on muscle.
Are you training to failure? How is your intensity? Are you sore the next few days?
It sounds like you have plateaued - usually that means you should change up the routine a bit. Try higher weight, more reps, giant sets, less rest between sets, negatives, rest-pauses ...ie anything to up the intensity and stimulate growth.
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Yeah I definitely understand that the curve doesn't last forever. I hit my first bump at around 165 lbs awhile ago. I powered through that by just having my spotter watch me as I forced reps with heavier weight.
Training to failure is something I always do. Since these days I'm training solo, forced reps isn't usually an option. To switch it up, I've been doing DC style training for about the last two months which I've heard is phenomenal for plateau breaking. That's probably the main reason why my lifts and intensity are up so much and it seems to be working so far (I think). My quads seem to respond better to old school high volume heavy training, so they're rarely sore unless I violate DC protocol and throw in another set or two. Other than that, I'm still sore after most workouts. I've been thinking of looking into this whole giant set thing that I'm hearing so much about. After my current training break is over, I'm probably going to try that out, or at least a higher volume program in general.
As for calories, I have absolutely no clue. I just eat about 5 full meals a day along with a shake and piece of fruit after the gym, and a cup of cottage cheese before bed since I'm out of casein. I'll start recording calories.
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I think you need to check your no of calories and add 300-500 a day and see what happens. Also switch and use more volume - sets and higher reps and see how your body react to that.
I'm sure more size will come, in the meantime - enjoy your strength 8)
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whats your training routine like? Post an example?
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Someone that is untrained initially adds innervation to their motor units to add strength which is why newbies can make such fast strength gains in the first month of lifting, it is a lot faster and easier for the body to add some nerves than pounds of muscle. After that process maxes out, the primary way to add strength is to add muscle. So if you're getting stronger you're adding muscle.
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i know several people who a) dont go up in mass but go up in strength b) is stronger than others who has much more mass.
so to say you go up in size when you go up in strength isnt necessarily true IMO especially not if there's a shortage of calories.
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Getting stronger does not always mean getting larger in muscle size. Good example would be Pl'ers who want to remain in their selective weight class.
There is an old saying in BB'ing, "More blood, more muscle". Which can mean, coveting the pump with higher reps and a moderate weight used. This is pure BB'ing. In so many words, you have to pump up the volume to pump up the blood supply to the muscles. Quite a few programs will do this, but pretty much depend on a basic split for a given training week. You would want more time under tension (TUT) and less rest between sets for the muscle area your are training. But you would not always want to go to the point of momentary failure on any set, in any exercise. Quite a different experience with doing squats with 6 to 8 reps and doing 12-15 reps a set, at a fast pace.
Just a couple (of many) avenues you might consider, not always the main stream BB'ing programs: 8X8's. Gironda, best I can tell, was the father of the 8X8 system as well as many other inventive workout plans. Might do a search on his training style.
10X10's were originally set up for Olympic lifters ( central Europe mostly) during off season lifting. Coaches wanted something easier on the joints, but still keep the lifters in shape. Surprise was that the lifters got stronger, with much more muscle size with this system. Some even jumped into a higher weight class. You can still include those compound exercises in either program, like squats, DL, benches, etc. in 8X8's or 10X10's.Can do a search, also, on SS's, Giants, Tri sets, Pre-exhausting, rest/pause,100's, etc, etc,etc.. Dozens of methods in BB'ing to gain mass.
The only supplement (other than a high grade, easily digested and assimilated into the blood stream whey protein...taken through out the day) would be Creatine Monohydrate with a dextrose (among other thing) delivery base. I am not a big believer in extra supplements, just a solid diet for trainee's (keeping high quality calories high). But seeing the results,over the years, on some of our athletes, has impressed me. Maybe not for everyone though. Good luck.
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Getting stronger does not always mean getting larger in muscle size. Good example would be Pl'ers who want to remain in their selective weight class.
There is an old saying in BB'ing, "More blood, more muscle". Which can mean, coveting the pump with higher reps and a moderate weight used. This is pure BB'ing. In so many words, you have to pump up the volume to pump up the blood supply to the muscles. Quite a few programs will do this, but pretty much depend on a basic split for a given training week. You would want more time under tension (TUT) and less rest between sets for the muscle area your are training. But you would not always want to go to the point of momentary failure on any set, in any exercise. Quite a different experience with doing squats with 6 to 8 reps and doing 12-15 reps a set, at a fast pace.
Just a couple (of many) avenues you might consider, not always the main stream BB'ing programs: 8X8's. Gironda, best I can tell, was the father of the 8X8 system as well as many other inventive workout plans. Might do a search on his training style.
10X10's were originally set up for Olympic lifters ( central Europe mostly) during off season lifting. Coaches wanted something easier on the joints, but still keep the lifters in shape. Surprise was that the lifters got stronger, with much more muscle size with this system. Some even jumped into a higher weight class. You can still include those compound exercises in either program, like squats, DL, benches, etc. in 8X8's or 10X10's.Can do a search, also, on SS's, Giants, Tri sets, Pre-exhausting, rest/pause,100's, etc, etc,etc.. Dozens of methods in BB'ing to gain mass.
The only supplement (other than a high grade, easily digested and assimilated into the blood stream whey protein...taken through out the day) would be Creatine Monohydrate with a dextrose (among other thing) delivery base. I am not a big believer in extra supplements, just a solid diet for trainee's (keeping high quality calories high). But seeing the results,over the years, on some of our athletes, has impressed me. Maybe not for everyone though. Good luck.
I think JPM and some others have great suggestions but it sounds like your traingin routine(s) is/are pretty much in check. You seem to keep varying it and understand the basic principles of weightlifting.
My main concern is with the quote "As for calories, I have absolutely no clue." This should be your MAIN focus when trying to put on size. Go back and consult your highly credible sources (seriously) for info on calorie intake and macronutrient breakdown.
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easy. eat more.
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Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I'm going to start recording calories from this point onward and see how I'm doing in that department.
Like I said before, over about the last 16 weeks, I've been training DoggCrap style as part of my effort to blow through a plateau, which is why my strength gains are so great, but not necessarily size. I think I've just been inspired to at least try out some higher volume routines over the next 6 weeks or so, and then perhaps go back to DC or perhaps not. Not real sure. In the mean time, here's a sample of my training log for my most recent 2 week DC cycle. The poundages represent my all out intense working set after warm up sets, rest paused to failure for in between 12 and 25 reps depending on the exercise (except for deads and sld's which I do straight sets, less volume for safety issues). Some of the lighter, isolation exercises have been recently swapped in during the last couple of weeks because I maxed out weight/reps for the previous exercise and I haven't yet built up the weight.
Week I:
AI: Incline Smith 210
Barbell Shoulder Press 110
Rope Pushdowns (new) 60
Lat Pulldowns 185
Deadlifts 325
BI: Barbell Curls 100
Reverse Curls 90
Standing Calf Machine 250
Seated Leg Curls 205
Plate loaded Leg Press 400
AII: Hammer Chest Press 195
Dumbell Shoulder Press 55's
Dumbell Kickbacks (new) 35's
Parallel Bar Lat Pulldowns 180
T Bar Rows 115
Week II:
BII: Alternating Dumbell Curls (new) 40's
Hammer Curls 50's
Seated Calf Raises 115
Squats 315
Stiff Legged Deads 195
AIII: Incline Hammer Press 180
Smythe Shoulder Press 125
Overhead Tricep Press (new) 50
Barbell Rows 205
Weighted Pull-ups body + 15
BIII: Cable Curls 95
Barbell Wrist Curls 65
Angled Calf Raises 210
Lying Leg Curls 175
Front Squats 215
Everything is done with a full range of motion and with a prolonged negative, except for my deadlifts where the bar just crashes down after I pull it.
Here's a page from my diet log that I kept for 3 days a few weeks ago to see my eating habits. This is one of my heavier eating days. I didn't train on this day. Most of the time I eat a little less, sometimes a little more. Now that I look at things, I think diet might be my number one problem. Tell me if it is based on this:
Breakfast: 1 whole egg; 3 whites
1 pouch oatmeal w/skim milk
multi vitamin
Total Aproximate Nutritional Value (TANV): Protein 29.5 G Carbs 38 G Fat 2 G
Meal 2: Roast Beef Sandwich
Peaches, cottage cheese
TANV: P 37 G C 53 G F 9 G
Meal 3: 3 Slices Corned Beef
1 Cup cheese/broccoli rice
TANV: P 41 G C 42 G F 21 G
Meal 4: 1 can tuna w/italinan dressing
2 cups applesauce
1/4 cup peanuts
TANV: P 35 G C 51 G F 17 G
Before Bed: 12 oz skim milk (out of casein)
TANV: P 12 G C 18 G F 0 G
Total values for the day: 155 G Protein, 202 G Carbs, 49 G Fat
Natural @ 5'9", 180 lbs. I'm not sure what my body fat percentage is. My abs aren't visible, but I'm not considered fat at all by those around me. Maybe around 15-17%? Not sure. I have a small gut when I sit down.
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try to get at least 230 gm protein, 230 carbs, and 60-70 fat. you will grow, up the protrin and fat and lower the carbs when you want to cut
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Dude,you`re eating like a bird...increase overall food intake ,bump protein way up there-250-300 grams per day of clean protein foods.
Eat more beef,pasta,whole eggs,and peanut butter.
Meal # 1:
6 whole eggs
2 sl. whole grain toast with natty peanut butter
1 cup oatmeal
1 banana
Meal # 2:
8 oz. chicken breast
2 baked potatoes
lg. salad
1 cup veggies
Meal # 3:
2 cans water packed tuna
1 cup brown rice
1 cup veggies
Meal # 4:
6-8 oz. lean steak or lean ground beef
whole wheat pasta/tomato sauce
salad
Meal # 5:
10 eggwhites
2 Tbsp. natty peanut butter
Meal # 6:
5 oz. chicken breast
2 Tbsp. natty peanut butter
Throw in a whey shake at post-workout mixed in water with another baked potato and one more at bedtime with a Tbsp. of olive oil
I also agree with JPM as far as training goes.
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dam wes i wish i could eat that much, ive been force feeding my self currently my diet looks like this, any input would be greatly appreciated
meal 1
6 whole eggs
1/2 cup oatmeal
1 cup plain yogurt
rasberries
2 cups non fat milk
fish oil, flaxseed, vitamin c, multi vitamin, bcaa
meal 2 post workout
2 scoops whey
1/4 cup dextrose
bcaas
meal 3
2 cans tuna
1/2 cup oatmeal
meal 4
1 chicken breast
1 cup brocolli
2 oz peanuts
1/2 cup brown rice
meal 5
1 can tuna
1 oz peanuts
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what do you mean by diet, that youre on an actual diet? because if not, if youre trying to gain weight then there's no need to just eat tuna and chicken IMO
and how can you eat half a cup of rice and stuff like that i eat 2 cups of rice, if i eat pasta, i eat like 2 full plates
anyway, if you got a problem eating a lot just add a little more to each meal over a period of time and it will be easier it might be hard to make drastic changes from one day to another. the body will get used to it.
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try to get at least 230 gm protein, 230 carbs, and 60-70 fat. you will grow, up the protrin and fat and lower the carbs when you want to cut
Too low carb.
Slightly too high protein.
Maybe 300-400 grams of carbs per day and 130-180 grams of protein. 100-120 grams of fats.
-Hedge
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Maybe I'm old fashion and not intuned with the BB'ing food police, but how about more red meat in the training diet? Steak or ham steak and eggs for breakfast, hamburger steak for lunch and a pot roast for dinner. Include soups, vegetables, hold grain products, etc along with these meals.. Muscle meats tends to build muscle for just about everyone. I bet strength and muscle size will follow. The body also needs those fats (and all important oils), with the meats, for better assimilation. Beef stew can be another item to think about. You do not have to gorge yourself with food each meal. Do include fish and chicken, they are all part of the package. But it might do a body good to have meat as a main factor. Have a protein shake between meals if you wish. Make it small and sip it slowly over a few minutes, never chug-a-lugging it.
A young active male (USA) calorie requirement is a mean average 3,000 for maintenance. Ambitious weight trainee's would require around the 3500 to 4000 range for maintenance (depending on body type....repair/recovery) and for additional muscle and strength growth. No sense shoveling in unneeded food and extra calories. Unless your main desire is to become a Sumo superstar. If your not gaining a somewhat lean muscle mass at a slow and steady pace, than check how you are working out (or add a few hundred calories more to see what happens).Too little or too much working out should give the first clue to why gains may be a problem.
I will agreed with HedgeHog that too much protein is overkill. Too much of the stuff can not be digested the way it should and winds up being used for energy requirement (calories) rather than muscle building. Or just passed out of the body as a waste produce. Someone once said that quality food is the best supplement. I tend to agree with this. Good luck.
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dam wes i wish i could eat that much, ive been force feeding my self currently my diet looks like this, any input would be greatly appreciated
meal 1
6 whole eggs
1/2 cup oatmeal
1 cup plain yogurt
rasberries
2 cups non fat milk
fish oil, flaxseed, vitamin c, multi vitamin, bcaa
meal 2 post workout
2 scoops whey
1/4 cup dextrose
bcaas
meal 3
2 cans tuna
1/2 cup oatmeal
meal 4
1 chicken breast
1 cup brocolli
2 oz peanuts
1/2 cup brown rice
meal 5
1 can tuna
1 oz peanuts
Dude,definately add some beef and other calorie dense foods into your eating plan.
If you`re not competing anytime soon or at all,don`t rely solely on just tuna and chicken as your main protein sources.
To keep bodyfat in check,try training just a bit lighter but rest less between sets.....keep moving and then walk on a treadmill,preferably on an incline for 30 minutes 3 x aweek.......nothing fast,just get the heart rate and breathing up a bit,it`ll also be beneficial as far as recovery is concerned and it`s a great CV activity too.
My diet recommendations for you as far as gaining good solid weight is concerned:
meal 1
6 whole eggs
1 cup oatmeal
1 cup plain yogurt
1 banana
2 cups non fat milk
fish oil, flaxseed, vitamin c, multi vitamin, bcaa
meal 2 post workout
2 scoops whey
1/4 cup dextrose
1 med. sized baked potato (plain)
2 Tbsp. honey (will help spike insulin very quickly)
bcaas
meal 3
6-8 oz. lean steak
1 baked potato
1 Lg. salad
1 cup veggies
1 orange
meal 4
8 oz. chicken breast
1 cup brocolli
1 cup brown rice
8 oz. skim milk
meal 5
5-6 oz. chicken breast
1 cup brocolli
1/2 cup brown rice
8 oz. skim milk
meal 6
1 can tuna
2 Tbsp. peanut butter
meal 7 (before bed)
2 scoops whey
1 Tbsp. olive oil
OR
6 whole eggs
In between meals eat the peanuts,maybe some more yogurt,a bit of cheese,another salad,and possibly a peanut butter and jelly sandwich or two with skim milk............just use natty peanut butter and sugar-free jelly.
Important:
Drink at least a gallon of water per day........hopefully more.
These are just some suggestions,there are many more scenarios of course, but I think this is a solid plan.........do what Bluto advised also,if it`s too much food for one day,slowly add in foods to your diet until your body is acclimated to the larger amounts.
And don`t forget to work legs heavy with higher reps......... and don`t skimp on deadlifts either.
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thanks i appreciate it, my routine always seems to be on but gaining quality weight is hard, i can easily gain fat and would like to loose about 3 percent body fat and i would really be happy with my phyiosique any ideas on dropping a lil bit of body fat. im currently around 13-14 and would like to get down to about 10. i have abs, there visible but i store most of my fat in the lovehandles.
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thanks i appreciate it, my routine always seems to be on but gaining quality weight is hard, i can easily gain fat and would like to loose about 3 percent body fat and i would really be happy with my phyiosique any ideas on dropping a lil bit of body fat. im currently around 13-14 and would like to get down to about 10. i have abs, there visible but i store most of my fat in the lovehandles.
wait wait, who's thread is this?
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wait wait, who's thread is this?
Hehe, serious thread hijacking. It's all good though. I think that diet could apply to me also.
lilwoday, how much do you weigh, and how tall are you?
i think i'm going to eat a goal of about 180 grams of protein daily. Based on what I'm hearing, that should be a good balance in between having enough to grow and not wasting nutrients. Also, I need to pick up some creatine and dextrose. I'm going to keep calories at around 4000 and see what that does for me.
I'm also in the process of writing a better routine for myself. For my core lifts, I'm going to continue to go heavy, but just introduce a little bit more volume and stray away from DC style for now. For isolation exercises, I think I'm going to try out something really high in volume, like giant sets or something else; lighter weight, but with strict focus on getting the biggest pumps possible. Especially for shoulder, arm, and chest work which are my biggest deficiencies. I have such a narrow frame, so shoulders are a HUGE priority.
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JonS: Any good quality Creatine will have dextrose ( along with beet juice sometimes, etc..acting as a delivery system for the Creatine)already in it. Actually pretty cheap stuff, considering what it may or may not do for you. Some of out athletes have used it, where they have to gain good quality muscle bwt in a somewhat short period of time (1 to 3 months usually). I hear that Wal-Mart sells a very good quality product of the stuff. Less than $20. Good luck.
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Oh, Jpm: thanks for the reference of alternative training styles. I looked up the 8x8 methodology, and it looks like something I want to try for at least a few months. For those of you who are interested, here's a pretty detailed description I came across. The website wouldn't actually let me copy and paste the text, so I had to get a little nerdy and copy it from the source code, which is why the format is so sloppy. Sorry if I left some code in:
8x8 Training Principles, Copyright Gregg Gillies
Here's the scoop: You perform 3 to 4 exercises per muscle
group and you do 8 sets of 8 reps for each exercise. Yes,
that's 24 - 32 sets per muscle group! Normally, I'd say
that you'll overtrain in a week on this type of volume,
but this weight training program is quite different than
what you are used to.
You work two or three muscle groups per session and you
rest only 15 to 30 seconds between sets and complete each
workout in about 45 minutes - never more than 60.
This program, properly performed, will build muscle mass
fast. Even with the large number of sets, it will crank
up your intensity level by performing all this work in a
short period of time. This is much different than the endless
volume, 2 to 3 hour marathon workouts.
An absolute key to gaining muscle mass is overload, or
progressive
resistance. This is usually accomplished by adding weight
to your exercises but this is not the only way to achieve
overload on your muscles. Another is to do more work in
less time, which is exactly what you get with this weight
training system.
This weight training program will be a serious shock to
your system. It's nothing like the bodybuilding programs
you see everyone else in your gym doing. Not even close.
In fact, I would bet you've never seen one person in your
gym train on this routine. But, hey, how many of them have
you seen lose fat or gain mass quickly or, for that matter,
make any positive changes in their body recently?
How Much Rest Between Sets?
The idea is minimum rest. This means working down to 30
seconds between sets at a minimum, and if you really want
the program to work and quickly build muscle, you'll need
to get down to 15 to 20 seconds between
sets. With a typical tempo of about 4 seconds per rep, you
should be able to complete a 24 set workout in 18 - 21 minutes
and 32 sets will take 25 to 28 minutes. Sounds painful,
doesn't it? But it works. And you do want to build muscle,
don't you?
Whatever exercise you're doing, don't let go of the bar
or dumbbells between sets. If you're benching, keep your
hands on the bar once you rack it. Doing deadlifts with
straps? Keep the straps on and your hands in place between
sets.
At first, you'll see a large drop in the amount of weight
you'll be using. Hey, not many of use are used to 15 seconds
between sets. Most of us take
at least a minute, if not two or three when we are training
heavy. Most likely, you'll need to drop your weights by
about 40 percent of what you typically use for a set of
8 reps. If you bench press 150 pounds for 8 reps with 60
to 90 seconds between sets, you'll most likely need to reduce
the poundage to about 90 pounds (if not lighter for the
first workout or two). As you adapt, start to build muscle,
and get used to the short rest periods, you'll see your
weights move back up.
You have to select the proper starting weight. This is
so important in your ability to build muscle and be successful
with this training program. The first workout or two should
be pretty easy as you get used to the program.
This will help you build momentum moving forward and allow
you to progress over a 4 to 6 week period of intense weight
training. Besides building momentum, the first two workouts
should be pretty easy so you don't end up with debilitating
soreness that keeps you out of the gym for a week.
You'll be using the same weight on every set. It's okay
to drop to 6 or 7 reps on the last set or two, but if you
drop below 8 on your fourth or fifth set, the weight is
too heavy.
When you can easily complete eight sets of eight reps,
it's time to up the weight at the next workout.
Obviously, you won't be training to failure on most of
your sets. Most likely you'll only do so on the last set
or two of each. However, you will be training like your've
never trained before. This routine is brutal on your body
and, especially, on your mind. This is even more true on
the big compound exercises, like dips, deadlifts, squats
and bent over rows.
Don't think you can handle this intense muscle building
weight lifting routine? You could start out by applying
this technique to one body part. If you are going to do
that, you'll want to cut back on the rest of your training.
Also, if you want results, you'll perform the routine on
the big muscles, like the back, and not use it just for
biceps. This is what I usually do. I'll perform the 8 x
8 routine on one bodypart at a time. It's a great way to
keep your routine fresh and prevent burnout.
For many of you, even fewer sets may be more effective,
as you can quickly overtrain on a program like this. I don't
recommend performing this weight training routine for more
than 4 - 5 weeks before taking a complete week of rest from
the gym.
Keep in mind that weightlifting workouts like this are
a great way to quickly build muscle but it's also a great
way to lose fat, completely change the shape of your body,
and keep the fat off. Weight lifting is much more effective
for fat loss than aerobics or dieting alone.
There's also an included sample lifting schedule, but it's so wrapped up in code that it's really impractical to paste it here. So rather than do that, I'll just provide the direct link to that and the information above together, for those who are interested:
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/articles-submit/greg-gillies/build-muscle-8x8.htm
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heavy squats aint gonna deliver you big legs, try doing moderate weight with a total of 120 reps for legs. they will grow, no doubt.
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im 5'9'' i weigh 197 this am after breakfeast, 20 years old
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How long ya` been training bro?
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I might go back and ry that 8 x 8 routine this winter.....haven`t done it in decades.
10x10 and 6x6 is also good depending on your goals.
A very tough way to train to say the very least..........we`re talking INTENSE & PAINFUL !!
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sorry well ive been training on my own for about 2 years, before that i wrestled in college and lifted with the team but we only did compound movments wich was great but my legs and back exploded and my arms did not catch up. also while wrestling in college i was bad about my diet. i would starve and run like most wrestlers to make weight and i think this messed up my metabolism. i was naturally about 175 but wrestled at 152-156 and i would cut about 10 pounds for every meet.
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JonS: Actually the original concept of 8X8's was doing that for only one exercise or two (at the most) per muscle group. Example:A compound movement like BP's for chest, doing 8 set's of 8 reps. And than, if you must, following that with another chest exercise, but it was usually an extension exercise, like pec decks, cable flys, etc. with the same 8X8 scheme. All exercises a faster pace, of say 45 to 60 second set breaks. This gives you 16 sets. That 32 set thing can be self destructive. Which ever set scheme you try, go very easy at first. Break your CNS in slowly.
Might try going to www.t-nation.com and do a search on Gironda, which will have (last time I looked) a very good article on Vince's training style and thoughts. Can buy his short courses on the net and get more insight. Things like 'V" bar dips, Sissy squats, real Roman chair work, Preacher Bench curls (had to be an exact angle & chest jammed into the top of the bench), special delt (highlighting the lateral raise) movements, calf training, etc. The thing about Gironda's methods, and the BB'ers who followed than, was the impressive delt/pec tie-in, large, wide and full delts (all three heads) and full belly biceps. Gironda also started the low carb diet structure a long time ago. His favorite meals usually included steak and eggs. To him, the perfect combination for muscle gains. I agree here.
We don't seem to have many free thinkers today as we did with him and other back in the day. Everything tends to be with-in the box thinking as far as training and diet goes for BB'ing. Repeating the same old things. (same thing on this site) Could use a new Italian renaissance man now, as Gironda was.
One thing about T-nations is that they will have a lot of stuff from coaches, trainers and BB'ers themselves that may not fit the general mold of present training ideas. Some work, but a lot will not be suited for everyone. (though T-nation does have their new super-duper supplement product every three months or so..at a special price offer...got to pay the bills I guess) New ideas and starting the thinking process can be worth it's weight in gold for any BB'er who really wants steady progress, for the labor he puts in at any gym. I wish GetBig could be that way. Good luck.
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JonS: Actually the original concept of 8X8's was doing that for only one exercise or two (at the most) per muscle group. Example:A compound movement like BP's for chest, doing 8 set's of 8 reps. And than, if you must, following that with another chest exercise, but it was usually an extension exercise, like pec decks, cable flys, etc. with the same 8X8 scheme. All exercises a faster pace, of say 45 to 60 second set breaks. This gives you 16 sets. That 32 set thing can be self destructive. Which ever set scheme you try, go very easy at first. Break your CNS in slowly.
Might try going to www.t-nation.com and do a search on Gironda, which will have (last time I looked) a very good article on Vince's training style and thoughts. Can buy his short courses on the net and get more insight. Things like 'V" bar dips, Sissy squats, real Roman chair work, Preacher Bench curls (had to be an exact angle & chest jammed into the top of the bench), special delt (highlighting the lateral raise) movements, calf training, etc. The thing about Gironda's methods, and the BB'ers who followed than, was the impressive delt/pec tie-in, large, wide and full delts (all three heads) and full belly biceps. Gironda also started the low carb diet structure a long time ago. His favorite meals usually included steak and eggs. To him, the perfect combination for muscle gains. I agree here.
We don't seem to have many free thinkers today as we did with him and other back in the day. Everything tends to be with-in the box thinking as far as training and diet goes for BB'ing. Repeating the same old things. (same thing on this site) Could use a new Italian renaissance man now, as Gironda was.
One thing about T-nations is that they will have a lot of stuff from coaches, trainers and BB'ers themselves that may not fit the general mold of present training ideas. Some work, but a lot will not be suited for everyone. (though T-nation does have their new super-duper supplement product every three months or so..at a special price offer...got to pay the bills I guess) New ideas and starting the thinking process can be worth it's weight in gold for any BB'er who really wants steady progress, for the labor he puts in at any gym. I wish GetBig could be that way. Good luck.
Charles Poliquinn, Mike Boyle, JC Santana, Gary Gray, Gray Cook are my favorites. I do think they are taking working out back to a more basic level and making it more fun. Gone are the days where Bodybuilding ruled in the gyms and there is a new trend of athletisism, balance and fitness that is taking over, and it is better for everyone.
I think T-nation is a great place for sound training/nutritional advice about common topics and misconceptions.