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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: columbusdude82 on June 08, 2007, 09:47:23 PM
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I just got done reading Christopher Hitchens' latest book. I bought it on Wednesday and was hardly able to put it down.
Damning condemnation of monotheism and oriental spirituality in particular, and all religion. His perspective on evolution and discrediting of "intelligent design" won me over.
Great book. Highly recommended.
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I just got done reading Christopher Hitchens' latest book. I bought it on Wednesday and was hardly able to put it down.
Damning condemnation of monotheism and oriental spirituality in particular, and all religion. His perspective on evolution and discrediting of "intelligent design" won me over.
Great book. Highly recommended.
Sounds like something Satan would write or say!
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I just got done reading Christopher Hitchens' latest book. I bought it on Wednesday and was hardly able to put it down.
Damning condemnation of monotheism and oriental spirituality in particular, and all religion. His perspective on evolution and discrediting of "intelligent design" won me over.
Great book. Highly recommended.
To get a true objective view of the whole thing, will you now find a book that argues the case for "intelligent design"? You don't even have to buy a book, check out this site www.icr.org (http://www.icr.org) and let me know what you think. I'll be interested to see what your response is.
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There are as many "creationisms" as there are religions. The site you point me to is about Christianist Creationism. I am sure there are Islamist, Jewish, Buddhist, and other versions of creationism. Which of them is true, I wonder?
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There are as many "creationisms" as there are religions. The site you point me to is about Christianist Creationism. I am sure there are Islamist, Jewish, Buddhist, and other versions of creationism. Which of them is true, I wonder?
The only way you can TRULY answer your own question is to investigate them all. Would you agree that most people would not be willing to fully investigate? Also, what sparked your interest in Hitchens' book? Were you looking for a way to find credibility into what you already believe, or were you one who believed in Creationism and then found out after reading his book that you now see it as a crock?
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Investigate them ALL? What about scientology? Christian Science? Jehova's witnesses? The cult of Venus? The gods of the sub-saharan African jungles? The cult of the Spaghetti Monster? ... Do I need to take every course offered at college to have "fully investigated"?
As for Hitchens' book, I've heard about him and read about him all over the web (say, on Andrew Sullivan's blog). I LOVED the way he pwnd Sean Hannity so I picked up the book. I am glad that I did.
I consider myself ambivalent towards religion, in spite of being born, baptized, raised, and schooled Catholic, and then experimenting with very 'Biblical' forms of Christianity until as recently as two years ago.
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The term "Intelligent Design" sounds like it was coined to justify something that ultimately makes very little sense outside of religion. The phrase itself is somewhat amusing.
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You are right, Sir. The Creationists found they could no longer enforce their dictatorship of (un)reason in the age of waning clerical power and rising scientific advancement, so they resorted to this middle-of-the-road solution. They said, "Fine, we'll accept that the creation account in Genesis is not literal, but we believe that God still created the world. Therefore, we choose to see evolution as an 'upward' trend."
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Investigate them ALL? What about scientology? Christian Science? Jehova's witnesses? The cult of Venus? The gods of the sub-saharan African jungles? The cult of the Spaghetti Monster? ... Do I need to take every course offered at college to have "fully investigated"?
As for Hitchens' book, I've heard about him and read about him all over the web (say, on Andrew Sullivan's blog). I LOVED the way he pwnd Sean Hannity so I picked up the book. I am glad that I did.
I expected as much. You're not really interesting in investigating. Have you read any of Lee Strobel's books? There are tons of books, dvd's, etc, summarizing all the different religions/cults.
What does Sean Hannity have to do with Creation? LOL
I consider myself ambivalent towards religion, in spite of being born, baptized, raised, and schooled Catholic, and then experimenting with very 'Biblical' forms of Christianity until as recently as two years ago.
So, what happened two years ago?
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Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris are all best selling authors. ;D
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The best-selling book of all time is The Bible. ;D
http://home.comcast.net/~antaylor1/bestsellingbooks.html
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Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris are all best selling authors. ;D
So is Dr. Seuss. :P
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Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris are all best selling authors. ;D
So are pastors John Hagee, Joel Osteen, and Joyce Meyers. What's your point?
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I expected as much. You're not really interesting in investigating. Have you read any of Lee Strobel's books? There are tons of books, dvd's, etc, summarizing all the different religions/cults.
What does Sean Hannity have to do with Creation? LOL
So, what happened two years ago?
I think you are only looking at one aspect of the book, albeit a big one, the creation myths of the big religions. The book is not just about that. On the whole, it makes the case for anti-theism. As for my 'interest' in 'investigating,' I went to catholic school from kindergarten through graduation and was immersed in Christianity for years after that. I think I know a thing or two about the Judeo-Christian creation myths. If I were to investigate, I would have to read up on Islam, Buddhism, and the rest. Just as all religions are equally valid, so are all their creation myths. But that does not mean that all of them are true, or even just one!
As for Sean Hannity, I like it when he gets pwnd because I feel he is not a true conservative in the sense of Goldwater and Reagan, he is just a Christianist Theo-conservative self-righteous guy.
And about two years ago, long story... maybe I'll tell it later :)
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I think you are only looking at one aspect of the book, albeit a big one, the creation myths of the big religions. The book is not just about that. On the whole, it makes the case for anti-theism. As for my 'interest' in 'investigating,' I went to catholic school from kindergarten through graduation and was immersed in Christianity for years after that. I think I know a thing or two about the Judeo-Christian creation myths. If I were to investigate, I would have to read up on Islam, Buddhism, and the rest. Just as all religions are equally valid, so are all their creation myths. But that does not mean that all of them are true, or even just one!
As for Sean Hannity, I like it when he gets pwnd because I feel he is not a true conservative in the sense of Goldwater and Reagan, he is just a Christianist Theo-conservative self-righteous guy.
And about two years ago, long story... maybe I'll tell it later :)
Just because you went to Catholic school doesn't mean you were immersed in Christianity. To be a Christian, in my opinion, means that you have an on-going, very intimate, and personal walk with Christ where you've accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior and recognized Him as the Son of God who died for your sins and mine. A relationship with Christ has nothing to do with Catholicism. Going to Catholic school your whole life just means you were subject to dogmatic views. Now, it would be totally different if you accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior, but it sounds like you just went to Catholic school. And if that be the case, it could have been any religious or non-religious school that brought you to the place in which you rest your non-belief. :-\
You don't have to tell me what happened if you don't want to, bro. I was just guessing that something happened to put you where you're at today in what you believe. But I hope you don't mind me praying about your situation.
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Yes I was immersed in Christianity, at school, at Church, at home, all my daily activities, etc. And yes, I was very religious, praying all the time, going to mass daily, reading the Bible and saying the rosary every night, sometimes getting up at 5 am to pray and say the rosary before school...
Any way, I just got tired about feeling guilty all the time. Guilty about every time I had sex, guilty about every hard-on I got when I saw a hot girl, guilty for jerking off... I also disagree with the Church's (and most of Christianity's) stances on contraception, gays, and sex... There's alot more to it than that but I will spare you, these are the main ideas.
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Yes I was immersed in Christianity, at school, at Church, at home, all my daily activities, etc. And yes, I was very religious, praying all the time, going to mass daily, reading the Bible and saying the rosary every night, sometimes getting up at 5 am to pray and say the rosary before school...
Any way, I just got tired about feeling guilty all the time. Guilty about every time I had sex, guilty about every hard-on I got when I saw a hot girl, guilty for jerking off... I also disagree with the Church's (and most of Christianity's) stances on contraception, gays, and sex... There's alot more to it than that but I will spare you, these are the main ideas.
This a BIG problem with Christianity and most organized religions in general. They want to control what comes natural to you and make it into a sin. What a bunch of crap.
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This a BIG problem with Christianity and most organized religions in general. They want to control what comes natural to you and make it into a sin. What a bunch of crap.
What do you want Christianity and organized religion to look like in general? Curious to know your thoughts
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What do you want Christianity and organized religion to look like in general? Curious to know your thoughts
How about religion not infringing upon the rights of women, homosexuals and the nonreligious? How about organized faith respecting the fact that the United States is a secular country?
That'd be a start.
You don't have to tell me what happened if you don't want to, bro. I was just guessing that something happened to put you where you're at today in what you believe. But I hope you don't mind me praying about your situation.
LOL ::) ;D Pray for him? Just because he doesn't believe your nonsense you automatically assume that there's something wrong with him. Stop thinking that you are right and that if people don't agree with you, then there must be something wrong with them.
You praying for him is pretty funny though.
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I agree with cameljockey. There is something very condescending about religious people offering to "pray" for me, each according to his own faith. (Well, except for the muslims, they just wanna blow me up :) ), although I am certain that Colossus means very well!
If I were to live in accordance with the Bible, I would have to go around butchering homosexual men (but not lesbians, oddly enough), stoning adulterers, chopping off Philistines' foreskins (where can I find me some of them? Gaza?), not getting laid and not jerking off, being very sexually frustrated and constantly torturing myself over the fact that I got a hard on, upholding my own belief in the Resurrected One while putting down everyone else's beliefs as "absurd"... no, wait, there's religious folks of all persuasions already doing most of that!
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Good to see atheists and agnostics on this forum!
columbusdude, faith is losing its grip(atleast in the west). As babyboomer assholes die out, religion will lose more and more followers.
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Oddly enough, I never described myself as an 'atheist.' After reading Hitchens' book and reflecting more and more on it, I am starting to feel like an "anti-theist."
As for faith losing its grip, Hitchens puts it eloquently when he says that religion, like all mythology, belongs to the dark infancies of our species, and like all goodbyes, this one must not be protracted.
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How about religion not infringing upon the rights of women, homosexuals and the nonreligious? How about organized faith respecting the fact that the United States is a secular country?
I am assuming you mean the right to abortion, same sex marriages and no religion in educational institutions? You know this could be another topic of discussion because everyone's rights are infringed upon at some point and time!
That'd be a start. Sounds reasonable
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You don't have to tell me what happened if you don't want to, bro. I was just guessing that something happened to put you where you're at today in what you believe. But I hope you don't mind me praying about your situation. I didn't say this!
LOL ::) ;D Pray for him? Just because he doesn't believe your nonsense you automatically assume that there's something wrong with him. Stop thinking that you are right and that if people don't agree with you, then there must be something wrong with them.
You praying for him is pretty funny though. I think asking someone can you pray for them is a learned action (Christianese) but I have learned not to ask permission to pray for someone unless they ask first but I am sure whomever this was that offered to pray, his/her intent was to do well not insult or condescend.
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As for faith losing its grip, Hitchens puts it eloquently when he says that religion, like all mythology, belongs to the dark infancies of our species, and like all goodbyes, this one must not be protracted
Unfortunately, it'll take some time before we're rid of religion. In the west atleast! Asia is booming and will take a little longer than the west.
And being an atheist simply means not believing in supernatural things. I don't know why certain people shun labeling themselves as atheists.. If you don't believe in a supernatural creator then you are an atheist.
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An atheist could still wish that God existed, or wish they could believe. An Anti-theist is an atheist who is glad that God doesn't exist. If I were to label myself, I'd prefer anti-theist at this stage.
As for religion dying out, the faithful can do whatever they want, as long as they don't kill each other and the rest of us over tribal fights that happened in the near east and Arabia hundreds of years ago...
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What do you want Christianity and organized religion to look like in general? Curious to know your thoughts
Noting something you said to CJ: If you make schools religion free, then you even the playing field for all faiths. Now, i'm not one of the people who think you need to be anal about it, like taking "one nation under God" out of the pledge.
The problem. is Church and state don't mix well. It only leads to religious persecution at some point or an infringement on rights.
Personally, when i see all the money some of the churches have, like the /crystal /cathedral and the Vatican i want to puke when at the same time i see many people starving, without proper medical care, education and shelter.
Organized religion by it's very nature requires money and in turn requires followers and to that end, organized religion in many cases become as faith warlords manipulating it's followers telling them they are nothing without the church.....without salvation that they find in church..... They keep them feeling guilty and ashamed about who they are, about being human, about wanting, craving, about sex etc.... All the things GOD gave us as people.....telling them the only way to heaven is through JC and they can tell if you have truly accepted JC into your hearts....and subtly tell you that you need to tithe and attend church or you are not a real christian. What a BIG mind screw...IMO. Eventually getting them to believe they are the "chosen" and they become indifferent as those around they believe are destined to suffer and say: oh well, the little boy in Mongolia had his chance to come to JC and he didn't so shame on him, he had his chance...as upwards of 50 billion since the time of JC probably never heard of him and if they did why would they listen? There environment and social foundation is based on the religion of the area, not some missionary. This makes me sick that one would think GOD doesn't everyone of his creations to judge them justly but instead justify that person suffering with a "I feel so bad, but they had their chance".
Wait! before you start telling me all the good churches do. I agree with you, they do much good, only problem, it comes with strings attached. churches aren't evil. But it's isn't a church that brings a person to GOD.
Organized religion should not be allowed to touch or be connected to money in any way. Organized Religion shouldn't be allowed to be broadcast publicly in any way. Any money that might go to a church should instead go to help those less fortunate around the world. Not give them hand outs, but give them opportunity through education and at least help them with basic needs like food and water. People should meet at each other's houses in small groups and worship as they like and keep it to themselves.
Every church in the world should be torn down and made into a homeless shelter/hospital/school starting with Vatican city.
rant over. ;D
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I'd add something but I'm stoned and thinking of porn.. I'm a damn sinner!
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... An Anti-theist is an atheist who is glad that God doesn't exist. If I were to label myself, I'd prefer anti-theist at this stage.
well, that will be me!!!
according creationist........ the earth is not older than 6000 years old or so!!! gimme just one proof and i'll change my mind!!! (anybody)
evolution makes more sense, prove me wrong, ............ actually, they can't!!!
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Ozmo, I am strongly opposed to the desecration of religious sites.
I will leave it to the faithful to destroy each others' churches, mosques, synagogues, and temples. They can always be relied upon to do that.
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Ozmo, I am strongly opposed to the desecration of religious sites.
I will leave it to the faithful to destroy each others' churches, mosques, synagogues, and temples. They can always be relied upon to do that.
It was just a rant dude. ;)
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...People should meet at each other's houses in small groups and worship... I agree with this.
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It would be more intimate, effective and personal. And the faith wouldn't so easily fall prey to exploitation.
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It would be more intimate, effective and personal. And the faith wouldn't so easily fall prey to exploitation.
Yes I agree, I think the smaller groups would be closer to the biblical way of having fellowship Like in Acts 2. they would not be under pressure to keep money coming in to pay for the church and or a pastors hugantis salary.
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BUMP for Hitch. Anyone been doing some reading this summer?
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The only way you can TRULY answer your own question is to investigate them all. Would you agree that most people would not be willing to fully investigate? Also, what sparked your interest in Hitchens' book? Were you looking for a way to find credibility into what you already believe, or were you one who believed in Creationism and then found out after reading his book that you now see it as a crock?
Did you apply the same standard of investigating all religions before becoming a Christian?
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Without religion, would the world be suddenly a better place to live?
I think not.
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Without religion, would the world be suddenly a better place to live?
I think not.
Have you read the book? If not, please don't take this thread off-topic.
If you have read the book, and have an opinion on Hitchens' arguments (for example, would the world be better off without religion), then please share them with us on here.
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Have you read the book? If not, please don't take this thread off-topic.
If you have read the book, and have an opinion on Hitchens' arguments (for example, would the world be better off without religion), then please share them with us on here.
Why should I read that book?
Do you really think the world would suddenly turn into a better place to live if we got rid of all religions?
And if you really insist I should read that book, isn't there any short version which shows only the relevant 'arguments' about 'how religion poisons everything' because I really doubt it's that interesting. I don't like to waist to much time with irrelevant thoughts about religion.
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I didn't say you should read the book. All I ask is that we keep this thread on topic and not clutter it with tangential discussions.
You are more than free to create a separate thread to list your arguments.
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columbusdude82 is angry at his Roman Catholic upbringing, and he dedicates a great deal of his time now to reading anti-Christian propaganda.
columbusdude82,
I can't blame you. I might be angry too if I had been brought up in such a strict environment in which one is not allowed to question anything.
But seriously, you now need to also question fundamentalist atheists, anti-Christian propaganda and scientists who will say anything to get recognition and funding.
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You can take that up in the "Faith of my fathers" thread. :)
This thread is about Hitch.
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Without religion, would the world be suddenly a better place to live?
I think not.
I have to agree that the world is a much better place with religion, however, religion is far from perfect and far from God in most cases as religion is a vessel for man's agenda of control.
It is religion and things like the Bible that prevent many people from being morally corrupt. Most people lack the strength and wisdom to do what's right on their own unless the there is a threat of everlasting suffering.
Is a person truly good because they fear the consequences of their actions will lead them to eternal suffering? I think not. The second they lose faith their moral fabric unravels and they digress into the weak minded soul they always were.
A person is truly good when they are the way they are with or without religion.
Of course the Christians came up a great way to get "good" followers by setting up the idea that no matter how good you are you will never be perfect before God and will go to hell unless you accept Jesus becuase God only wants perfection........ A Monster soul screwing scam by Paul and Co. if you ask me.
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Is a person truly good because they fear the consequences of their actions will lead them to eternal suffering? I think not. The second they lose faith their moral fabric unravels and they digress into the weak minded soul they always were.
A person is truly good when they are the way they are with or without religion.
Of course the Christians came up a great way to get "good" followers by setting up the idea that no matter how good you are you will never be perfect before God and will go to hell unless you accept Jesus becuase God only wants perfection........ A Monster soul screwing scam by Paul and Co. if you ask me.
Hey, OzmO!
Just out of curiosity, where did you come up with this? The best, most generous, most charitable, bravest of Christians I know do not fear hell at all. And most of them were very bad people before they became Christians. They were completely transformed. Many of them were alcoholics or had other types of addictions, which they were able to give up only after they became Christians, after all else had failed and their condition was hopeless according to medicine and science.
A person is truly good when they are the way they are with or without religion.
I agree. So? Christians do not claim to be good, just forgiven. And Christians do a lot of good. Do you think that the hopeless, the needy and those suffering really care who their help comes from, whether it comes from a "good" person or from a Christian?
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Hey, OzmO!
Just out of curiosity, where did you come up with this? The best, most generous, most charitable, bravest of Christians I know do not fear hell at all. And most of them were very bad people before they became Christians. They were completely transformed. Many of them were alcoholics or had other types of addictions, which they were able to give up only after they became Christians, after all else had failed and their condition was hopeless according to medicine and science.
I agree. So? Christians do not claim to be good, just forgiven. And Christians do a lot of good. Do you think that the hopeless, the needy and those suffering really care who their help comes from, whether it comes from a "good" person or from a Christian?
I agree with most of what you say but give credit differently. When a person is ready to change their life, God influences them regardless of whether or not they accept Christ.
Just out of curiosity, where did you come up with this? The best, most generous, most charitable, bravest of Christians I know do not fear hell at all. And most of them were very bad people before they became Christians.
Did i ever tell of my good friend who is pastor? His wife divorced him and he is now womanizing and drinking. What was keeping him from doing it before? His belief in Christ. What's different now? He thinks God abandoned him and is angry with God. So my point is clear here:
The second they lose faith their moral fabric unravels and they digress into the weak minded soul they always were.
A person is truly good when they are the way they are with or without religion.
Don't get me wrong. If that what it takes to keep them on the right path so be it. But we shouldn't be under any illusions about it.
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Excerpt from the book: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18503995/site/newsweek/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18503995/site/newsweek/)
Hopefully those of you who want to attack the book will at least read an excerpt first.
Hopefully, others will see what a genuinely awesome writer Hitchens is and decide to read the whole book.