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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: The Coach on June 09, 2007, 05:01:41 PM
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This is one of the most difficult questions for Christians to answer.
The "problem of pain," as the well-known Christian scholar, C.S. Lewis, once called it, is atheism's most potent weapon against the Christian faith.
All true science and history, if rightly understood, support the fact of God. This evidence is so strong that, as the Bible says: "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God" (Psalm 14:1).
Most atheists, therefore, without any objective evidence on which to base their faith in "no God", must resort finally to philosophical objections. And this problem of suffering is the greatest of these.
That is, they say, how can a God of love permit such things in His world as war, sickness, pain, and death, especially when their effects often are felt most keenly by those who are apparently innocent? Either He is not a God of love and is indifferent to human suffering, or else He is not a God of power and is therefore helpless to do anything about it. In either case, the Biblical God who is supposedly one of both absolute power and perfect love becomes an impossible anachronism. Or so they claim!
This is a real difficulty, but atheism is certainly not the answer, and neither is agnosticism. While there is much evil in the world, there is even more that is good. This is proved by the mere fact that people normally try to hang on to life as long as they can. Furthermore, everyone instinctively recognizes that "good" is a higher order of truth than "bad".
We need also to recognize that our very minds were created by God. We can only use these minds to the extent that He allows, and it is, therefore, utterly presumptuous for us to use them to question Him and His motives.
"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25).
"Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, why hast Thou made me thus?" (Romans 9:20).
We ourselves do not establish the standards of what is right. Only the Creator of all reality can do that. We need to settle it, in our minds and hearts, whether we understand it or not, that whatever God does is, by definition, right.
Having settled this by faith, we are then free to seek for ways in which we can profit spiritually from the sufferings in life as well as the blessings. As we consider such matters, it is helpful to keep the following great truths continually in our minds.
There is really no such thing as the "innocent" suffering.
Since "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God's wrath on the basis of his own innocence.
As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so.
The world is now under God's Curse (Genesis 3:17) because of man's rebellion against God's Word.
This "bondage of corruption," with the "whole world groaning and travailing together in pain" (Romans 8:21, 22), is universal, affecting all men and women and children everywhere. God did not create the world this way, and one day will set all things right again. In that day, "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain" (Revelation 21:4).
Learn about how much Jesus Christ sufferedThe Lord Jesus Christ, who was the only truly "innocent" and "righteous" man in all history, nevertheless has suffered more than anyone else who ever lived.
And this He did for us! “Christ died for our sins” (I Corinthians 15:3). He suffered and died, in order that ultimately He might deliver the world from the Curse, and that, even now, He can deliver from sin and its bondage anyone who will receive Him in faith as personal Lord and Savior. This great deliverance from the penalty of inherent sin, as well as of overt sins, very possibly also assures the salvation of those who have died before reaching an age of conscious choice of wrong over right.
With our full faith in God's goodness and in Christ's redemption, we can recognize that our present sufferings can be turned to His glory and our good.
The sufferings of unsaved men are often used by the Holy Spirit to cause them to realize their needs of salvation and to turn to Christ in repentance and faith. The sufferings of Christians should always be the means of developing a stronger dependence on God and a more Christ-like character, if they are properly "exercised thereby" (Hebrews 12:11).
Thus, God is loving and merciful even when, "for the present," He allows trials and sufferings to come in our lives.
“For we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28).
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Because they pray to a false god.
They will only be saved when they start praying to the green horse.
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Truth Coach, nuff said! Come Lord Jesus, come quickly!
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All true science and history, if rightly understood, support the fact of God. This evidence is so strong that, as the Bible says: "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God" (Psalm 14:1).
If rightly understood? You mean if interpreted in the same paradigm as a person who has decided he/she has found the answer to everything and has therefore closed their mind to any concepts or truths that might conflict with what they have decided to establish to everyone around that they believe.
Most atheists, therefore, without any objective evidence on which to base their faith in "no God", must resort finally to philosophical objections. And this problem of suffering is the greatest of these.
They really don't resort to philosophical objections from what I've seen. They use evidence and logic which for short sighted people points to: "No God"
We ourselves do not establish the standards of what is right. Only the Creator of all reality can do that. We need to settle it, in our minds and hearts, whether we understand it or not, that whatever God does is, by definition, right.
This is what's creates mindless blind followers. If God sets a standards then he is accountable by his actions regarding those standards. An abused child is likely to be an abusive father. What's often shown in the Bible in many occasion is a bloodthirsty, jealous, insecure "god" which speaks more of man than anything divine.
God has establish what is right in one principle: Do onto others..... And the God described in the bible does no such thing.
There is really no such thing as the "innocent" suffering.
Since "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God's wrath on the basis of his own innocence.
As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so.
So new born babies in Sodom already offended god? So the one year old boy who drowned in the flood offended God?
Crap like this fuels the self righteous to persecute others who don't believe the same way.
Is that how people who over the centuries have justified killing babies in the name of God when they come into a village of heathens and slaughter it like in the crusades?
It doesn't happen now as much becuase the whole world would frown on it. but before news could circle the globe ti did.
Anther "gain followers through fear" Take the fear or the assumed benefits of allengence away and the person is what they used to be, morally corrupt. So in essence never truly good to begin with. I've seen this a lot in people of faith I've known.
The world is now under God's Curse (Genesis 3:17) because of man's rebellion against God's Word.
This "bondage of corruption," with the "whole world groaning and travailing together in pain" (Romans 8:21, 22), is universal, affecting all men and women and children everywhere. God did not create the world this way, and one day will set all things right again. In that day, "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain" (Revelation 21:4).
God did create the world that way according to the Bible, in his omnipresence and rage, allowed original sin to enter the world in the beggining and blamed the whole thing on Adam and Eve.
According to the bible God allow this to continue to what we are today.
Learn about how much Jesus Christ sufferedThe Lord Jesus Christ, who was the only truly "innocent" and "righteous" man in all history, nevertheless has suffered more than anyone else who ever lived.
More bull shit. He got hung on a cross while through out history people have been skinned alive, burnt at a stake, torture for years, had their daughter raped before their eyes, their children heads smashed before them...etc....
But you are right, the author has been brainwashed to think Jesus has suffered the most, more than anyone who has ever lived. ::)
With our full faith in God's goodness and in Christ's redemption, we can recognize that our present sufferings can be turned to His glory and our good.
Thus, God is loving and merciful even when, "for the present," He allows trials and sufferings to come in our lives.
“For we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28).
Another way to lose compassion and turn your heart away for the suffering of others and justifying your indifference.
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This is one of the most difficult questions for Christians to answer.
All true science and history, if rightly understood, support the fact of God. This evidence is so strong that, as the Bible says: "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God" (Psalm 14:1).
Most atheists, therefore, without any objective evidence on which to base their faith in "no God", must resort finally to philosophical objections. And this problem of suffering is the greatest of these.
man, where do you get this shit?
what science supports god?
they have nothing to do with each other.
were is your objective evidence for god? all you have is a man made book and philosophical arguments.
atheists use logic to imply god does not exist, or withhold there beleif until evidence is provided.
give me one shred of scientific evidence that warrants the conclusion "god did it", you may interpret it that way, but i seldom beleive that is the case. Faith is always needed, hence rational inquiry is not possible, hence you cant PROVE god per se with science, and logic is the best tool.
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man, where do you get this shit?
what science supports god?
they have nothing to do with each other.
were is your objective evidence for god? all you have is a man made book and philosophical arguments.
atheists use logic to imply god does not exist, or withhold there beleif until evidence is provided.
give me one shred of scientific evidence that warrants the conclusion "god did it", you may interpret it that way, but i seldom beleive that is the case. Faith is always needed, hence rational inquiry is not possible, hence you cant PROVE god per se with science, and logic is the best tool.
I believe that if we look at the evolutionary progression of the brain, religious people are "behind" rational people.
The reason is simple: The limbic system (the "emotional system") developed before the neocortex (that controls the "logical and rational" thoughts).
Thus, religious people chooses irrational beliefs in order to satisfy their emotional needs, which then translates into a life and behaviour based on irrationality before logic. They also put their irrational faith in front of logic and a realistic view of the situation when making decisions.
Logical people, not buying into the religion bullshit bases their thinking and decision making on more rational thought, by using the latest evolutionary addition to the brain.
Thus, in a way, us rationals are "more advanced" beings in a way.
;D
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I believe that if we look at the evolutionary progression of the brain, religious people are "behind" rational people.
The reason is simple: The limbic system (the "emotional system") developed before the neocortex (that controls the "logical and rational" thoughts).
Thus, religious people chooses irrational beliefs in order to satisfy their emotional needs, which then translates into a life and behaviour based on irrationality before logic. They also put their irrational faith in front of logic and a realistic view of the situation when making decisions.
Logical people, not buying into the religion bullshit bases their thinking and decision making on more rational thought, by using the latest evolutionary addition to the brain.
Thus, in a way, us rationals are "more advanced" beings in a way.
;D
Oh brother ::)
It's also been proven that psychology isn't an exact science either.
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Oh brother ::)
It's also been proven that psychology isn't an exact science either.
thats neuroscience for one, also nothing is really an "exact science" theories are falsifiable.
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If rightly understood? You mean if interpreted in the same paradigm as a person who has decided he/she has found the answer to everything and has therefore closed their mind to any concepts or truths that might conflict with what they have decided to establish to everyone around that they believe.
You incorrectly assume that such is the case. In many cases, people have opened their mind to certain concepts and, after further review, have found that their faith in God is justified.
They really don't resort to philosophical objections from what I've seen. They use evidence and logic which for short sighted people points to: "No God"
Evidence and logic is neutral, which means that they can point to "God", just as easily as they can point to "No God".
At the end of the day, it is indeed philosophical objections.
This is what's creates mindless blind followers. If God sets a standards then he is accountable by his actions regarding those standards. An abused child is likely to be an abusive father. What's often shown in the Bible in many occasion is a bloodthirsty, jealous, insecure "god" which speaks more of man than anything divine.
Accountable to whom? Who exactly is going to make the Creator pay for any perceived wrongdoings? Man?
Your abused-child take is a prime example of what makes sin so horrible. In far too many cases, the trangressor isn't the only one who suffers. The son will suffer for his father's sins. And, someone's else little girl will one day suffer, as she will be the wife of that scarred son.
God has establish what is right in one principle: Do onto others..... And the God described in the bible does no such thing.
So new born babies in Sodom already offended god? So the one year old boy who drowned in the flood offended God?
Crap like this fuels the self righteous to persecute others who don't believe the same way.
What you just posted here is better suited to be deemed crap. I guess you missed the part where Abraham pleas for Sodom to be spared; to which God replies that, despite the wickedness of Sodom and Gommorah, He would spare those cities if there were a mere TEN righteous people there.
And long did the antediluvian (pre-Flood) folks have to repent of their sins? OHHHHHHH!!!!! Just a mere 12 decades.
And spare us the tired "babies" spiel. Again, certain sins affect not only the trangressors but others around them (in many cases) their families. If a man does something wrong that causes him to lose his job and he can't pay his bills; HE and HIS FAMILY will be out on the street. The landlord isn't just going to evict dear old Dad.
In short, you're doing little more than playing the old skeptic catch-22. If there's evil in the world and God seemingly does nothing, He doesn't exist or He's weak and apathetic. But, if He's had enough of man's wickedness and inflicts judgment, now He's the big, bad meanie.
Is that how people who over the centuries have justified killing babies in the name of God when they come into a village of heathens and slaughter it like in the crusades?
Then what was Stalin's excuse? As one commentator put it, Stalin killed more people in one year than the Crusaders did in a decade.
It doesn't happen now as much becuase the whole world would frown on it. but before news could circle the globe ti did.
Anther "gain followers through fear" Take the fear or the assumed benefits of allengence away and the person is what they used to be, morally corrupt. So in essence never truly good to begin with. I've seen this a lot in people of faith I've known.
God did create the world that way according to the Bible, in his omnipresence and rage, allowed original sin to enter the world in the beggining and blamed the whole thing on Adam and Eve.
I'm sorry. Did the almighty ram that fruit down the throats of Adam and Eve? I could have sworn that they were told not to eat it or even touch it.
Do the words "Free will" mean anything to you? Of course, with free will comes consequences (good and bad). If you want the free will to do what you want, then you must accept whatever reprecussions come with your choices.
Otherwise, you are little more than a glorified robot.
According to the bible God allow this to continue to what we are today.
More bull shit. He got hung on a cross while through out history people have been skinned alive, burnt at a stake, torture for years, had their daughter raped before their eyes, their children heads smashed before them...etc....
But you are right, the author has been brainwashed to think Jesus has suffered the most, more than anyone who has ever lived. ::)
Another way to lose compassion and turn your heart away for the suffering of others and justifying your indifference.
You act as if being crucified was the equivalent of a mild headache.
Apparently, you are as historically bereft as you are hostile. Take a good look as the hospitals in your area. How many of them have the words "Baptist" or "Methodist" in its title?
Ever heard of the Salvation Army? Those are the guys with the red kettles who raise money to shelter the homeless, clothe the naked, and feed the hungry. How many atheists groups do you see doing that?
Orphans used to be kept in sanitariums and prisons, until Christian men, like George Mueller, made orphanages to care for those whom the self-proclaimed "enlightened" deemed worthless.
Besides, why should you care about babies or the suffering of others? After all, isn't the rule "survival of the fittest"?
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I believe that if we look at the evolutionary progression of the brain, religious people are "behind" rational people.
The reason is simple: The limbic system (the "emotional system") developed before the neocortex (that controls the "logical and rational" thoughts).
Thus, religious people chooses irrational beliefs in order to satisfy their emotional needs, which then translates into a life and behaviour based on irrationality before logic. They also put their irrational faith in front of logic and a realistic view of the situation when making decisions.
Logical people, not buying into the religion bullshit bases their thinking and decision making on more rational thought, by using the latest evolutionary addition to the brain.
Thus, in a way, us rationals are "more advanced" beings in a way.
;D
Not really!! You actually are into religion. It's called humanism, which in laymen's terms, is man worshipping himself.
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You incorrectly assume that such is the case. In many cases, people have opened their mind to certain concepts and, after further review, have found that their faith in God is justified.
Sure, you are correct. But it doesn't change the fact there view is tainted by what they believe. I believe science and history support the existence of God but maybe not for the same reasons tainted or otherwise. the core of the fallacy, IMO, here is "rightly" understood. It's either fact or not. You don't "rightly" understand anything. You either see it for what it is or you don't. He should have said: "If you believe the same way I do, you'll understand the same way."
Evidence and logic is neutral, which means that they can point to "God", just as easily as they can point to "No God".
At the end of the day, it is indeed philosophical objections.
I agree and it goes for pasta monsters in space also.
Accountable to whom? Who exactly is going to make the Creator pay for any perceived wrongdoings? Man?
Your abused-child take is a prime example of what makes sin so horrible. In far too many cases, the trangressor isn't the only one who suffers. The son will suffer for his father's sins. And, someone's else little girl will one day suffer, as she will be the wife of that scarred son.
I might have wrote it wrong. Here's what it should have said: God sets standards but doesn't hold himself accountable to those standards.
What you just posted here is better suited to be deemed crap. I guess you missed the part where Abraham pleas for Sodom to be spared; to which God replies that, despite the wickedness of Sodom and Gommorah, He would spare those cities if there were a mere TEN righteous people there.
And long did the antediluvian (pre-Flood) folks have to repent of their sins? OHHHHHHH!!!!! Just a mere 12 decades.
And spare us the tired "babies" spiel. Again, certain sins affect not only the trangressors but others around them (in many cases) their families. If a man does something wrong that causes him to lose his job and he can't pay his bills; HE and HIS FAMILY will be out on the street. The landlord isn't just going to evict dear old Dad.
In short, you're doing little more than playing the old skeptic catch-22. If there's evil in the world and God seemingly does nothing, He doesn't exist or He's weak and apathetic. But, if He's had enough of man's wickedness and inflicts judgment, now He's the big, bad meanie.
Whether the man is guilty of not paying his bills or not doesn't change the the fact of the innocence of the child. How many innocent children died in Sodom that day? That's how it works in the OT. Being innocent doesn't count for anything.
I'm not playing the catch-22 game here. My point is, is that he slaughters many innocent souls.
Then what was Stalin's excuse? As one commentator put it, Stalin killed more people in one year than the Crusaders did in a decade.
What does Stalin have to do with the deaths of those in the name of religion? Does the fact that Stalin killed more make what the crusaders did ok? ::)
I'm sorry. Did the almighty ram that fruit down the throats of Adam and Eve? I could have sworn that they were told not to eat it or even touch it.
Do the words "Free will" mean anything to you? Of course, with free will comes consequences (good and bad). If you want the free will to do what you want, then you must accept whatever reprecussions come with your choices.
Otherwise, you are little more than a glorified robot.
This omnipotent God could have given others the opportunity to make those choices. Instead we are born with original sin. It wasn't my choice to eat the fruit. Yet he allowed us to be born with original sin and expects perfection.... That's your catch 22.
You act as if being crucified was the equivalent of a mild headache.
Apparently, you are as historically bereft as you are hostile. Take a good look as the hospitals in your area. How many of them have the words "Baptist" or "Methodist" in its title?
Ever heard of the Salvation Army? Those are the guys with the red kettles who raise money to shelter the homeless, clothe the naked, and feed the hungry. How many atheists groups do you see doing that?
Orphans used to be kept in sanitariums and prisons, until Christian men, like George Mueller, made orphanages to care for those whom the self-proclaimed "enlightened" deemed worthless.
Besides, why should you care about babies or the suffering of others? After all, isn't the rule "survival of the fittest"?
You assume i see it as a mild headache. I only say what i did when obviously people have suffered far more then Jesus did on the cross , but your average thumper will tell you Jesus suffered more than anyone on earth.
Survival of the fittest isn't my rule. Is it yours?
I see indifference because of the attitude that is taken to innocent people killed by God. Now, before you run with this, i see this as depicted in the Bible which i see as more of man's doing and using "God" as justification.
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all ya religion people..
one day i want yall to come to karachi with me (dont worry i'll arrange for lifeguards to be around us :)) and eat with me at pizza hut on the beach in karachi..pretty neat place..right by thr beach...with the waves crashing close to the marble floor...servers kissing yer ass(not to mention my bodyguards :)) and 6 , 8 10, 4 yr old little kids in rags and their ribs showing pressing their grubby little faces against the glass windows looking at ya eat..
makes ya feel fantastic..you feel like a king knowing those kids are prolly starving and god chose YOU to have such comfort..cause he probably loves you more :) makes ya special :)
then its awesome when one of the servers goes out with a knife an runs the kids off...oo oo..no wait..for an encore...when ya leave you'll have those kids will come beg at your feet..i swear to alah and moses and jesus..they'll come kneel and beg at yer feet and they'll beg for food..not money..
i tell ya i never felt better knowing i had the power that god had given me..to let these people be fed or starve to death..pizza is expensive yanno..its bread and cheese..more than these lousy vermin can afford..
last time i ws in paki..i did feed em ..since god forgot n all..but then again..how can i be mad at god..he loves me more than these pathetic excuses for humans.. :-\
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Because life's a bitch!
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Sure, you are correct. But it doesn't change the fact there view is tainted by what they believe. I believe science and history support the existence of God but maybe not for the same reasons tainted or otherwise. the core of the fallacy, IMO, here is "rightly" understood. It's either fact or not. You don't "rightly" understand anything. You either see it for what it is or you don't. He should have said: "If you believe the same way I do, you'll understand the same way."
I might have wrote it wrong. Here's what it should have said: God sets standards but doesn't hold himself accountable to those standards.
Those standards are for us, fallible man. As God is the ultimate Creator of life, He can give or take such away, as He sees fit.
Whether the man is guilty of not paying his bills or not doesn't change the the fact of the innocence of the child. How many innocent children died in Sodom that day? That's how it works in the OT. Being innocent doesn't count for anything.
The fact is that your sins and mine can affect other people. That is the reason why God has such strict rules in many areas of life. Furthermore, what if the citizens of Sodom and Gommorah had repented and turned from their wickedness and stayed away from such. They would have been blessed, along with their children. But why should children be bleseed by their parents' actions? After all, the kids didn't do anything to deserve such favor.
I'm not playing the catch-22 game here. My point is, is that he slaughters many innocent souls.
Again, societies and families were either blessed or cursed, collectively, depending on the behavior of their leaders and fathers.
What does Stalin have to do with the deaths of those in the name of religion? Does the fact that Stalin killed more make what the crusaders did ok? ::)
This omnipotent God could have given others the opportunity to make those choices. Instead we are born with original sin. It wasn't my choice to eat the fruit. Yet he allowed us to be born with original sin and expects perfection.... That's your catch 22.
Hence, the reason Jesus did what He did.
You assume i see it as a mild headache. I only say what i did when obviously people have suffered far more then Jesus did on the cross , but your average thumper will tell you Jesus suffered more than anyone on earth.
These alleged other people's deaths can't give salvation from sin and an opportunity for eternal life in heaven. Jesus' death (and Resurrection) CAN!!!
I see indifference because of the attitude that is taken to innocent people killed by God. Now, before you run with this, i see this as depicted in the Bible which i see as more of man's doing and using "God" as justification.
What attitude is that? We don't live in bubbles. What we do affects others, for better or for worse. Depending on the position you hold in life and your sphere of influence, your behavior affects others (positively or negatively). Your sins can hurt not only you but those you love; mine can as well. Your righteous behavior can bless those around you, as can mine.