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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: IrishMuscle84 on June 25, 2007, 10:12:32 PM
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Whats a good LAT TRAINING ROUTINE.....my lats piss me off, they wont grow for jackshit.
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WHATS YOUR CURRENT BACK ROUTINE?
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deadlift
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deadlift
Yes! And, Dorian style rev grip BB row, and all other Rows. Dont be afraid to heave the big bells!
Aim for 40lbs more than you use now and hit it! ;)
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Yes! And, Dorian style rev grip BB row, and all other Rows. Dont be afraid to heave the big bells!
Aim for 40lbs more than you use now and hit it! ;)
Good shit. My back sounded just like your situation. It takes heavy movements with LOTS of variations in exercises. You've got to hit the bakc from as many angles as possible as heavy as possible to tear it up and help it grow. Once I started moving big weight, my back has become one of my best body parts. You've got to figure out what works for you. Logical deduction will get you on your way. If you're doing the same weight for months, time to move up. If you're doing high volume wiht nothing, cut it down a little. If you're busting ass but only eat like a bird, time to shove some food down the pipe. Train hard and train smart..and you'll be surprised with the results you'll get.
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Wicked's right -need some real poundage. I bet you can DB row way more than ya think.
Get into the 3 rep zone now and then, it'll up your 6-8 rep load.
Heavy F'n 70 degree DB rows w/ a arm braced put meat on my sides ( & Rear delts) where I had NONE!
Chin & even add weight if you can. Lot's of Heavy ass pulldowns been done by EVERY man w/ a impressive back. Seated Rows.
**Preserve the low back unless your built like Branch. You can
Overdo it there. Do Heavy deads a bit off the floor at various heights in YOUR Power range. Heavy!
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Wicked's right -need some real poundage. I bet you can DB row way more than ya think.
Get into the 3 rep zone now and then, it'll up your 6-8 rep load.
Heavy F'n 70 degree DB rows w/ a arm braced put meat on my sides ( & Rear delts) where I had NONE!
Chin & even add weight if you can. Lot's of Heavy ass pulldowns been done by EVERY man w/ a impressive back. Seated Rows.
**Preserve the low back unless your built like Branch. You can
Overdo it there. Do Heavy deads a bit off the floor at various heights in YOUR Power range. Heavy!
Good suggestions. I'd focus on Weighted Chins and Pullovers as well as HEAVY deadlifts (sumo stance, regular, rack deads and romanian....vary weekly)
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Heres another. The Comercial gyms wont tollerate it but...
Hang Heavy chain lengths on the PullDown Mach for resistance. The resistance > as you get into the stronger part of your pull,
you can coustamize the point of Load paramaters. Bands can to.
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My back routine i always start with LATS, I just usually do heavy lat pulldowns, and maybe do a set of chin-ups, which i cant do for shit. After lats Ill do deadlifts then finish up back with 2 differant row exercises, T-Bar Rows, bent-over rows, or cable rows.
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i always
Get rid of that phrase and you might have a chance. You need to be varying your workouts to get better results.
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BTW a lot of PR's in Bench Press are set after a warmup of heavy DB rows.
My best bench sessions allways are.
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Dl's are great but for a difference stretch and lat influence, might include SLDL's as a alternate exercise. Extend the grip wider than the usually middle hand spacing, nearer the inside collars as much as you can. (this wider grip is very good for shrugging exercises) This also goes for regular BB rows and DL's. Change grips from time to time. Curl grip BB rows (can also do this with a DB, one arm at a time..effective) to my way of thinking, is a superior exercise for the lats. In any case, pull into the pit of the stomach and hold each rep for a second. Extra wide, middle and narrow grip chins, in the same workout are rewarding. Try lowering the body, one arm at a time, as a final set when chinning. Gives overall strength to regular chins. In any event, might try experimenting with different hand grips for different results. Wonder if anyone here as ever done one arm DL's. A whole new feel to back and lat training. You can straddle the bar rather than in the regular front facing the bar position. Strongman stuff but also a muscle builder.
For myself, the bent arm pullover is one of the master exercise for the lat's. Either BB or DB, but DB's can give a better stretch and the worry of hitting you head/face on the way up is reduced. Called the upper body squat and for good reason. Some will SS straight arm pullover with bent arm pullovers with great results. Can SS straight arm pullovers with any other lat/back exercise for a new slant on training. Some people think of only light or moderate weight when doing SS's. But that's not always true. Huge weights can be used when worked up to. Good Luck.
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Wicked's right -need some real poundage. I bet you can DB row way more than ya think.
Get into the 3 rep zone now and then, it'll up your 6-8 rep load.
Heavy F'n 70 degree DB rows w/ a arm braced put meat on my sides ( & Rear delts) where I had NONE!
Chin & even add weight if you can. Lot's of Heavy ass pulldowns been done by EVERY man w/ a impressive back. Seated Rows.
**Preserve the low back unless your built like Branch. You can
Overdo it there. Do Heavy deads a bit off the floor at various heights in YOUR Power range. Heavy!
Agreed:
-Pulldowns/chins to front & back
-Pullovers
-Rows - sometimes BB rows are the least effective. Also try t-bar, hammer and one-arm DB.
Deadlifts are a nice way to get injured; keep the reps high and consider more limited range ROMs, as he says, or hyperextensions.
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Yeah, I forgot the Hammer strength row and pulldown Mach. I think I got some cool Pics of Dorian on that somewhere.
Deads? If your a home trainer w/ out a power rack, you can nail together 2x12" boards various height to
get if off the ground a bit. Put a little 2x2'' edgeing on to keep it from rolling off.
Many dont realize many top PLers never do full range bench or free squat except at comp.
To hard on teh body. Board press & box squats in training only. Save the low back, leave the super human feats to the freaks built 4 it ;).
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For lats I like to do wide grip pullups to the front. Pick a rep range like 8 to 10 or 10 to 12 and go as hard and heavy as you can. If you can do more then your rep range strap on 5lbs. Stay at that wieght till you can get to the top of your rep range. I always only count the first set as to whether I will up the wieght next time. So if my first set I can do 12 but the second only 10 ill still up the wieght. Also lift hard(none of that slow motion or medium paced lifting) explode up as hard as you can and have the attitude you will beat whatever you did last time. I get the best results if I lift like im pissed off. I explode like im angry or have just lost it. More then what particular exercise you do its how much intesity you put into it that will get results. Ive done pulldowns and pullups and both worked as long as I pushed as hard as I can.
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Sometimes the problem with training back is going too heavy!
I know this sounds contradictory to the "Go heavy,or go home" attitude,but at times if you lighten the load and pull with the lats first,then the arms,you will acheive a better mind/muscle connection which will result in growth.
I bet no one gets a good tight pumped feeling in their lats like they do in their biceps or forearms,because you are merely heaving big weight from Point A to Point B instead of focusing on contracting and stretching the lats with a good squeeze.
I used to row mega-heavy but since I`ve lightened the load due to a lower back inujry,my back development is far better.
Try T-Bar rows with 5 big plates and you mostly get a sore lower back along with sore hamstrings.......now try it using 25 pound plates,bringing the bar to the chest in a controlled manner,pausing/squeezing for a sec,and getting a good stretch at the bottom.......just one example.
The back is a hard area to "feel" when training........lighten the load,rest less between sets,and work on getting a better mind/muscle connection with a squeeze and stretch regardless of exercise choice and I bet your back growth will improve.
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Good experienced advice from Wes. Also concentration on the elbows, rather than the actual pulling motion from the biceps, makes a lot of difference when calling the lat's into play. Though a great lat/back exercise, some BB'ers should back off the chins and do lat pulldowns, etc. That way the weight can be adjusted and handle the way it should. From the full overhead extension to the point on contraction, the exercise can be controlled more, making sure the lat's get the full work load they need. Nothing against the chin (one of my favorite exercises, front and behind the neck..with added weight) but some trainee's are just not suited for it. It becomes a ego exercise and may fall short of giving it's full muscle building potential. Some guy's may be better off doing negative chins for awhile, with better slow and controlled motion.
Pullovers (straight or bent arm) affect my lat's greatly with a full pump and stretch. As do SLDL's with a wider than normal grip. Good luck.
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Sometimes the problem with training back is going too heavy!
I know this sounds contradictory to the "Go heavy,or go home" attitude,but at times if you lighten the load and pull with the lats first,then the arms,you will acheive a better mind/muscle connection which will result in growth.
I bet no one gets a good tight pumped feeling in their lats like they do in their biceps or forearms,because you are merely heaving big weight from Point A to Point B instead of focusing on contracting and stretching the lats with a good squeeze.
I used to row mega-heavy but since I`ve lightened the load due to a lower back inujry,my back development is far better.
Try T-Bar rows with 5 big plates and you mostly get a sore lower back along with sore hamstrings.......now try it using 25 pound plates,bringing the bar to the chest in a controlled manner,pausing/squeezing for a sec,and getting a good stretch at the bottom.......just one example.
The back is a hard area to "feel" when training........lighten the load,rest less between sets,and work on getting a better mind/muscle connection with a squeeze and stretch regardless of exercise choice and I bet your back growth will improve.
Hey Wess I like everything you say, But just want to point out 1 little thing, YOU ARE ADVANCED, and the beginners need to understant that they need to build up to some semblance of strength to put on more new mass.
So many pumpers stay the same and NEVER CHANGE. tHEY can up light reps to infinity and it wont put a Gram of solid BW on their chassis.
But yes, control and a tight contraction is very VERY import.
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I feel you should use the heaviest weight you can move and still feel your lats working. When you DON'T feel them working is when you're using more of your body than you're supposed to to do the movement. If you pull your shoulders and arms back and squeeze hard each rep you should feel it working. If you don't, or don't know what I'm talking about, you need to find out what it feels like to hit the lats FIRST by using just the bar or lighter weight whatever exercise you're doing and then experiment. Find the exercises that hit the back that YOU feel the best. Those will be the best for you because they fit well to your body type and design. Just don't do this or that exercise becuase so and so said to. Try before you buy!
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Hey Wess I like everything you say, But just want to point out 1 little thing, YOU ARE ADVANCED, and the beginners need to understant that they need to build up to some semblance of strength to put on more new mass.
So many pumpers stay the same and NEVER CHANGE. tHEY can up light reps to infinity and it wont put a Gram of solid BW on their chassis.
But yes, control and a tight contraction is very VERY import.
Generally agree with your posts but in this case, for lats and chest nuance matters for development, not for strength. Try to get the form right as much as possible, even if only for part of each set until fatigue takes over. Try to maintain good form until fatique makes it impossible, then continue with imperfect form, partial ROMs, cheats, rest-pause, etc. - whatever it takes to exceed your previous best reps/weight:
-Elbows in, pulling/pushing with them, making sure it's felt in the muscles.
-Doing this creates scapula restraction - shoulders back and slightly scrunched together, pushing the elbows slightly forward. In effect you're making the compound exercises a little more skewed towards isolation of the torso muscles and away from secondary arm and delt muscles.
-This also reduces the chance of shoulder impingement aka injury.
-Experiment with different grips and grip widths. For example, it's not necessarily essential to use wide grips.
Try to maintain form as much as possible even at the end, cheat the weight up before entirely abandoning form!!
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There's a small gym in CHaing Mai, the owner is a welder and makes most all his stuff,
anyway, Hes got several mirrors angled so you can see your back work in like the 70 degree row and squats too. Really helpfull for form.
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Ive lifted for a while and for me ive only gotten actuall results from going heavy. I read the bodybuilding mags where they talk about squizing your muscles but I personally have never gotten results doing that. I have seen some bodybuilders work out going very light and not till faliure. I think its because they are on so much drugs it doesnt matter what they do as long as they are eating good and taking drugs theyl grow. Getting a good pump or finding a mind muscle connection isnt that relevent from my experience. Muscles arnt as intellectuall as we are. They just realize they got beat up so they decide to recover stronger after a reall intense workout. They dont care about a mind muscle connection. Ive gone into the gym and done only 2 very heavy sets and barley felt anything and went home and done this on a regular basis and gotten great results. For pullups, I use good form and dont rock back and forth so how am I going to use other muscles then my lats and bicepts when that motion if strict only works my lats. I have personally tried slow motion training and feeling the muscle squeeze training and although I felt my muscles they didnt grow at all since muscles need to be shocked. I also think a lot of bodybuilders do this is because once a person gets to the point where they could bench over 500lbs for 8 or 10 intense reps or do wieghted pullups with 200lbs or whatever going that heavy would hurt there joints so they have to focus more on squizing or doing more sets but for the normal guy going heavy is best.
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Ive lifted for a while and for me ive only gotten actuall results from going heavy. I read the bodybuilding mags where they talk about squizing your muscles but I personally have never gotten results doing that. I have seen some bodybuilders work out going very light and not till faliure. I think its because they are on so much drugs it doesnt matter what they do as long as they are eating good and taking drugs theyl grow. Getting a good pump or finding a mind muscle connection isnt that relevent from my experience. Muscles arnt as intellectuall as we are. They just realize they got beat up so they decide to recover stronger after a reall intense workout. They dont care about a mind muscle connection. Ive gone into the gym and done only 2 very heavy sets and barley felt anything and went home and done this on a regular basis and gotten great results. For pullups, I use good form and dont rock back and forth so how am I going to use other muscles then my lats and bicepts when that motion if strict only works my lats. I have personally tried slow motion training and feeling the muscle squeeze training and although I felt my muscles they didnt grow at all since muscles need to be shocked. I also think a lot of bodybuilders do this is because once a person gets to the point where they could bench over 500lbs for 8 or 10 intense reps or do wieghted pullups with 200lbs or whatever going that heavy would hurt there joints so they have to focus more on squizing or doing more sets but for the normal guy going heavy is best.
Generally agree. Increase the workload by whatever means necessary.
BUT..I feel i'm getting better results now by doing it right.
Try to get form right especially at the beginning/middle of sets, then sacrifice some form later in order to improve performance when it gets tough using cheats, rest-pause, partials, etc. - whatever it takes to increase the intensity/load on the muscle.
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The three kings of back movments are worked in this order. 1.) Chins - just your body weight. As many as you can do cleanly per set. 2.) T-Bar rows - the ultimate for back thickness. 3.) Low pulley rows - brings in the lower lats to complete the back. Enjoy the rewards of a well worked back! ;)
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The three kings of back movments are worked in this order. 1.) Chins - just your body weight. As many as you can do cleanly per set. 2.) T-Bar rows - the ultimate for back thickness. 3.) Low pulley rows - brings in the lower lats to complete the back. Enjoy the rewards of a well worked back! ;)
Too simplistic, there are other similar alternatives using the same basic motions. Plus you've completely neglected pullovers even though they've been mentioned here repeatedly. ::) There's really no need for two rowing motions, you can hit high or low lats with either T-bars or pulley rows using different angles.
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Too simplistic, there are other similar alternatives using the same basic motions. Plus you've completely neglected pullovers even though they've been mentioned here repeatedly. ::)
Simplicity is the way to get results. If you want mass, keep it simple. Anyway pull-over are really used to tie in pics with lats. I personally use pull-over strictly for pic training.
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Simplicity is the way to get results. If you want mass, keep it simple. Anyway pull-over are really used to tie in pics with lats. I personally use pull-over strictly for pic training.
What i'm saying is that there are other exercises just as good for each you mentioned.
Plus there were no pullovers.
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The single best exercise for the lats, bar none is the Nautilis pullover machine. Second would be the barbell row.
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The single best exercise for the lats, bar none is the Nautilis pullover machine. Second would be the barbell row.
Agreed on the pullover machine including other more recent brands. After that it's very debatable; probably chins. As far as rowing motions there are several that are equally good, no one exercise.
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In regard to feeling the lats working, for me I need to use a thumbless or "false" grip. When I use a regular grip with the thumb around the bar I feel my biceps taking over the load. Just something I've found usefull on chins and rows.
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Also with the pullover machine - ive heard many good things about it but I dont have access to one. Would a bent arm barbell/dumbbell pullover be the closest alternative, or how about straight arm pulldowns on the lat-pulldown machine?
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Also with the pullover machine - ive heard many good things about it but I dont have access to one. Would a bent arm barbell/dumbbell pullover be the closest alternative, or how about straight arm pulldowns on the lat-pulldown machine?
The closest thing is to use ab straps, attached to either a lat pulley or chin bar. Can also use a low pulley while lying on your back on a bench. Then do a pullover motion using the elbows. Unlike dumbbell or cable pullover motions, this takes the secondary muscles out of the motion and makes it similar to a pullover machine.
If you're going to use the normal cable or dumbbell pullover, try different grips. I find that a neutral grip with palms facing one another takes more of the other muscles out of it and hits the lats better-rope attachment on pulleys, triceps hammer bar for free weight pullovers.
Also, do free weight pullovers on a decline.
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The closest thing is to use ab straps, attached to either a lat pulley or chin bar. Can also use a low pulley while lying on your back on a bench. Then do a pullover motion using the elbows. Unlike dumbbell or cable pullover motions, this takes the secondary muscles out of the motion and makes it similar to a pullover machine.
Thanks! :)
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Ive lifted for a while and for me ive only gotten actuall results from going heavy. I read the bodybuilding mags where they talk about squizing your muscles but I personally have never gotten results doing that. I have seen some bodybuilders work out going very light and not till faliure. I think its because they are on so much drugs it doesnt matter what they do as long as they are eating good and taking drugs theyl grow. Getting a good pump or finding a mind muscle connection isnt that relevent from my experience. Muscles arnt as intellectuall as we are. They just realize they got beat up so they decide to recover stronger after a reall intense workout. They dont care about a mind muscle connection. Ive gone into the gym and done only 2 very heavy sets and barley felt anything and went home and done this on a regular basis and gotten great results. For pullups, I use good form and dont rock back and forth so how am I going to use other muscles then my lats and bicepts when that motion if strict only works my lats. I have personally tried slow motion training and feeling the muscle squeeze training and although I felt my muscles they didnt grow at all since muscles need to be shocked. I also think a lot of bodybuilders do this is because once a person gets to the point where they could bench over 500lbs for 8 or 10 intense reps or do wieghted pullups with 200lbs or whatever going that heavy would hurt there joints so they have to focus more on squizing or doing more sets but for the normal guy going heavy is best.
I didn`t say train like a wimp,I said train correctly using good form.
Go heavy,but use perfect form...........at times a certain amount of "controled cheating" is permissable,and I often do it on certain bodyparts but as far as the back goes,it seems lots of people fall short in developing it their full potential because it is never worked fully................... heaving or jumping up heavy rows for example with 275 pounds at a bodyweight of 160 pounds only gave me a sore lower back.................... 185 pounds works my back much more fully,as a result,my back has improved...........Ronni e can still sleep at night and doesn`t have to worry,but progress comes very slowly as a rule for me so I`ll take it anytime it comes along!! :)
In regards to your statement that once a person can bench 500 for 8-10 reps and chin with an additional 200 pounds of added weight..............I see hundreds of people doing this everyday,it`s commonplace, and they still had weak ass lats!! LOL :)
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Also with the pullover machine - ive heard many good things about it but I dont have access to one. Would a bent arm barbell/dumbbell pullover be the closest alternative, or how about straight arm pulldowns on the lat-pulldown machine?
I have yet to find any free weight alternative that can compare to the Nautilis Pullover machine - the feel in your lats is unreal the way the machine isolates them.
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Agreed on the pullover machine including other more recent brands. After that it's very debatable; probably chins. As far as rowing motions there are several that are equally good, no one exercise.
I built my back off heavy barbell rows and t-bar rows. A machine will always have it's limits but it has it's place. If people are going to start suggesting pullovers, dumbbell or even barbell pull overs would be a better suggestion than the machine. I feel freeweights to be abit more taxing because lately I've noticed a different "feel" from HS equipment or machines vs. free weights. Mix it up and don't use the same old routine all the time. Vary the places in which you put certain exercises to vary the amoutn of weight and possible strain on that area worked, reps, sets. this is typical shit guys. The same stuff we've been doing that people seem to forget. It's called basics for a reason. If you get two decent rowing movements and two decent pulling movements into a back workout, then you've pretty much got all bases covers. If you're going to use the same exercises all the time though, change your grip, grip width, hand positions such as over hand vs. underhand. ETC. EACH will hit the back different and stimulate it in ways the SAME exercise with another style of grip didn't previously. I'm a firm believer in going as heavy as you can as hard as you can but still feeling the muscle being worked. You can't tell me you can crank out a big back with 60lb dumbbell rows wtih super strick form and squeezing the lats hard. THey'll grow to fit the stress put on them but, to be big and THICK, you've got to move heavier weights. Heavy is relative to the person though.
..I wanted to put a little side note on all this too. Before you jump balls deep into any sort of heavy lifting or weight training in general. LEARN PROPER FORM! proper form is key to handling heavier weight safely later on down the road when your training calls for it! I'd never be able to do bent over barbell rows with 405lbs today SAFELY AND EFFECTIVELY if I didn't learn how to properly execute the movement with precision and technique. You might think you're hot shit til you hurt yourself and have to start back all over again. This stuff takes time. If this shit was easy, we'd all be big and we'd all be in awesome shape. The wicked truth is, nothing in life worth having comes cheap or easy.
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Heavy relative to the person, yes. THe 60's are real good for a small guy. 90 is too much for many.
It do need to be demanding to the person doing it though.
Nothing wrong w/ some 3 rep sets to failure here and there. Builds strength FAST.
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I built my back off heavy barbell rows and t-bar rows. A machine will always have it's limits but it has it's place. If people are going to start suggesting pullovers, dumbbell or even barbell pull overs would be a better suggestion than the machine.
To say that tells me you haven't considered all angles & still have the usual free weight bias seen with so many lifters; part the macho thang as well as conventional thinking. The best thing is a combination of both that takes the advantages of each, depending on the muscle and exercise.
Free weight versions of pullovers enlist secondary muscles that machines remove. Machines make it a purer more focused exercise on the desired torso area. Someone can use the usual anti-machine argument about the ROM, the fact it's more rigid, etc., but that's a separate & very debatable issue with pros & cons, aside from the above fact that isn't debatable that machine pullovers have a huge advantage in removing the secondary muscles. Exactly why i suggested ab straps for cable or bodyweight pullovers-far more isolating.
The isolation of a pullover machine such as the Nautilus is exactly why it's still a classic decades later-free weight version of this can't compare. Sergio Oliva said those machines were more effective than free weights when he got into his best shape in 1972.
The Nautilus pullover was *the* classic Nautilus machine, even at the old Gold's.
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I built my back off heavy barbell rows and t-bar rows. A machine will always have it's limits but it has it's place. If people are going to start suggesting pullovers, dumbbell or even barbell pull overs would be a better suggestion than the machine. I feel freeweights to be abit more taxing because lately I've noticed a different "feel" from HS equipment or machines vs. free weights.
The fact that you "built your back" on only rows tells me you have lots of untapped, neglected potential that's been left on the table. Chins/pulldowns AND pullovers dude. ;)
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Dorian on that Pullover Machine in his vid. is good enough for me.
Got any pics of other Pullover Machs? Pretty scarce around here. I never come acrost 1 I like.
Machines?
Like Chris Cormeir said, "You cant tell me Ya can hang 4 plates ea side of a hammer strength Mach; pound out reps and not grow - Please!"
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Dorian on that Pullover Machine in his vid. is good enough for me.
Got any pics of other Pullover Machs? Pretty scarce around here. I never come acrost 1 I like.
Machines?
Like Chris Cormeir said, "You cant tell me Ya can hang 4 plates ea side of a hammer strength Mach; pound out reps and not grow - Please!"
What Cormier said i've believed for decades; you put serious effort for a period of time into a well-designed leverage machine including brands like Hammer and the body has to grow. Intensity on the muscle beyond anything else IMO.
Hammer named one of their leverage row machines after Yates he liked it that much. ;)
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The fact that you "built your back" on only rows tells me you have lots of untapped, neglected potential that's been left on the table. Chins/pulldowns AND pullovers dude. ;)
Man you've read my workout log. You know better than that. AND I stated in my wording that if you get a few pulldown movements no matter what tehy are and rowing movements, you can effectively worked your back without worrying if you could've missed out on something.
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Man you've read my workout log. You know better than that. AND I stated in my wording that if you get a few pulldown movements no matter what tehy are and rowing movements, you can effectively worked your back without worrying if you could've missed out on something.
I just went with what you said above; that log might've only been in effect for weeks.
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I just went with what you said above; that log might've only been in effect for weeks.
Okay then yeah, you're right. I apologize.
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Okay then yeah, you're right. I apologize.
No need dude, we're just talking, as a forum should be.
What do you think of my points on using a pullover machine? Can't remember but i think you're doing both pulldowns and chins or pulldowns now in training?
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Having had some very intense workouts with the original style Nautilis pullover machine, I witness to it's direct influence on lat building. Of course with the narrow curl grip pull down bar (right in front of you..can not miss it) as the second phase of the pullover exercise. Superior because the main resistance is on the point of the elbows, where it should be for full effect. That and the three phased Nautilis cam bearing. Once you jam yourself into the seating bench, your getting a full and complete stretch of the lat's themselves. Two or three sets were tops. But BB'ers being BB's, some decided to tweak this a bit and added other exercise to a lat workout. Big mistake which lead to overworking the lat's giving less or no results for muscle building efforts. And than these misguided BB'ers blamed the Nautilis machine as being no good.
If trying to build the lats in the conventional way (rows, chins, cables, etc) the arms will always be the weakest link, giving out before the lats can be fully worked as they should be. With the point of resistance on the elbows, that is done away with. Nautilis and other like designed pullover machines have the advantage for lat building because of the elbow placement.
The DL & STDL do not require any pulling action from the arms. The arms are holding the bar in place while the rest of the body does the blunt of the lifting. The upper body acts to keep it's self in a upright position and stable with regular DL's. While the SLDL is a extension from the core center of the body, it still is keeping a stable influence. A very broad and thick back/lats can be built from either exercise.
BB or DB pullovers come closest to a ideal lat exercise. The Nautilis machine was designed to copy the action of these exercises. Do not know if their still around, but elbow slings (with pouches) were made for cable pulls and chins, where the resistance was on the point of the elbows. Could increase the weight used greatly on any exercise done with the slings. The Ab strap, though interesting, give a shorter ROM. And seem not too functional for the purpose of lat building.
If anyone has the opportunity to use a original Nautilis pullover machine, than add SLDL's as the only other lat/back exercise to the workout. If not Nautilis than try doing DB/BB bent arm pullovers followed by curl grip BB rows (into the lower gut...holding for a second). Going for a tri set, than try straight arm pullovers, bent arm pullovers and curl grip lat machine pulldowns. Chins are a first selection over lat pulldowns if you still have the energy left to do them the right way. Good Luck.
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No need dude, we're just talking, as a forum should be.
What do you think of my points on using a pullover machine? Can't remember but i think you're doing both pulldowns and chins or pulldowns now in training?
I don't do chins save at the end of a stretch..I don't do them as an actual exercise. My big ass is hard to get up there though I did get 15 wide gip chins@247lb bodyweight which makes me happy. My bi's felt it though..not my back. Yeah I'm mixing it up. I LOVE lat machine pull overs to polish off things if I still feel like I need more out of my back days. Yes..I LOVE pulldowns. They've really brought my back out..especially in the middle and top of my back.
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PULLUPS
varying grips
do set after set until you cant lift yourself anymore
you'd be suprised how many you can get
once you think your done, you can still do about 3-4 more sets.
shoot for 100
NOTHING is better for lat development.
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I don't do chins save at the end of a stretch..I don't do them as an actual exercise. My big ass is hard to get up there though I did get 15 wide gip chins@247lb bodyweight which makes me happy. My bi's felt it though..not my back. Yeah I'm mixing it up. I LOVE lat machine pull overs to polish off things if I still feel like I need more out of my back days. Yes..I LOVE pulldowns. They've really brought my back out..especially in the middle and top of my back.
You know some say that chins are better than pulldowns. It's not true, they're similar in effect while still slightly different. There are some good reasons to do chins, but just as many to do pulldowns to front and back:
-If you go heavy on pulldowns close or higher than bodyweight they're just as intense on the lats as chins IF you don't lean back. It's ok to cheat sometimes but don't do them leaning way back keep the back straight. Similarly good effect to chins in general; slightly different. Doing them to the back hits the lats differently, and if you don't bring the bar all the way down to the bottom it's not really that hard on the shoulders.
-You can choose a wider variety of grips, which makes a difference in the effect.
-You can sit farther back or forward and hit them at different angles, something not possible with chins. Can also face the other way for a different angle, on either chins or pulldowns.
-Let's face it chins are exhausting, pulldowns aren't. Being wiped out after chins can take away some of the appeal when pulldowns work well without causing the same fatigue.
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Yeah, I think it's great if someones Fit enough to hit 100 reps of chins, But if it's MASSIVE ya want, you should be adding weight to stall you at lets say teh 5-10 rep neighborhood.
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PULLUPS
varying grips
do set after set until you cant lift yourself anymore
you'd be suprised how many you can get
once you think your done, you can still do about 3-4 more sets.
shoot for 100
NOTHING is better for lat development.
Weighted pullups are KING for upper lat width, however, nothing, NOTHING compares to the pullover machine for absolute lat THICKNESS. For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of using a Nautilis pullover machine, I would highly recommend you try and find a gym with one. The isolation it gives for the lats is unlike any other free weight exercise, even dumbell pullovers. With the dumbell you often just end up working the chest and triceps more so that the lats.
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PULLUPS
varying grips
do set after set until you cant lift yourself anymore
you'd be suprised how many you can get
once you think your done, you can still do about 3-4 more sets.
shoot for 100
NOTHING is better for lat development.
Pulldowns can be quite similar in effect, and are a lot less exhausting; see previous post.
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Weighted pullups are KING for upper lat width, however, nothing, NOTHING compares to the pullover machine for absolute lat THICKNESS. For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of using a Nautilis pullover machine, I would highly recommend you try and find a gym with one. The isolation it gives for the lats is unlike any other free weight exercise, even dumbell pullovers. With the dumbell you often just end up working the chest and triceps more so that the lats.
what gym here in St. Louis has a Nautilus Pullover? my gym has a stupid Nautilus Nitro version but it's not the same.
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what gym here in St. Louis has a Nautilus Pullover? my gym has a stupid Nautilus Nitro version but it's not the same.
Shawn Perrine of Iron Age specifically claims that the Nitros at Gold's Venice are comparable. ::)
YMCAs especially bigger ones that have been around a long time still have some older equipment; the largest and oldest Y in my hometown has one amongst a line of old equipment and a bunch of Nautilus stuff. I know that Nautilus makes several lines, one of which still uses the origin cams.
The original Nautilus pullover prototype supposedly still works in a Tulsa, OK YMCA.
Other brands are good now including the Hammer pullover. Arthur Jones son runs Hammer so figure it's good if not quite the same. The MedX pullover is very likely close to the original.
http://www.leeapperson.com/bookone/intensitypagezero.html
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Art Jones had a patten on all his Nautilus designed cam's on his machines. The name Nautilus is taken from the Nautilus sea shell that looks like the design of the cam bearings. I would doubt that the Nitro version is the same as the original Nautilus machine due to patten laws. Or any other type pullover machine for that matter.
Jones also had another lat machine pulldown devise. Instead of moving the arms down and in front of the body, you would move the arms sideways, inline with the body. Something like a chin behind the neck motion. I used this side machine also. it was just as tough as the front pulldown version. Again, really had to jam yourself into that one.(not to mention Jones shoulder machine, which was excellent) The reason these machines were so good was because they allowed that very strong point of leverage on the elbows to do the work. Hitting the lats directly. Taking the weaker arms out of the exercise. The original pullover machines had that short lat bar in front of you as the second phase of the exercise. Also a cam action if I remember right. Good Luck.
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As mentioned, i did see that cam shape used in one of their more recent lines. With or without it there are other good pullover machines available that are still very good.
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Most all the other pullover type machines are very good. As long as the elbows lead the movement. That is, resistance on the elbows. Main advantage of the original pullover machine was that three phased cam that followed the natural strength curve (from the weakest to the strongest) and made adjustment accordingly. Art Jones got that ideas from working with chains, at first, and the changing levels of strength during just about any exercise. In simple terms, just lifting a chain from the ground, more resistance is encountered from each chain link as it is raised up. Roughly following the natural strength pattern of the muscles. One of the reasons that chain training (and elastic band training) is used with some advanced PL'ing workout plans.
The only negative factor about Nautilus training (pullover, shoulder, hip/back, arm, leg machines, ab, etc) is that the strength gained, and it can be impressive, does not transfer back over to regular BB training. You may use huge weight on the bench/chest machine but going back to regular bench pressing you will find your not nearly as strong as before using the Nautilus equipment. You almost have to retrain the motor units to bench press properly. If you were BB rowing 260, did the pullover machine for three month's (for example) chances would be that you would have a tough time rowing 220-230 for reps after. Muscle size yes, transferring of strength back to regular free weight (hate that term) training, no. Probably partly due to the arms and other supporting pressing factors not brought into play when doing strictly Nautilus programs (motor units again). Combining both forms of training in one workout may be best if keeping BB strength matching. Good luck.
Side Bar: Is that brother in the pullover machine Mercury Morris of the old Dolphins?
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Most all the other pullover type machines are very good. As long as the elbows lead the movement. That is, resistance on the elbows. Main advantage of the original pullover machine was that three phased cam that followed the natural strength curve (from the weakest to the strongest) and made adjustment accordingly. Art Jones got that ideas from working with chains, at first, and the changing levels of strength during just about any exercise. In simple terms, just lifting a chain from the ground, more resistance is encountered from each chain link as it is raised up. Roughly following the natural strength pattern of the muscles. One of the reasons that chain training (and elastic band training) is used with some advanced PL'ing workout plans.
The only negative factor about Nautilus training (pullover, shoulder, hip/back, arm, leg machines, ab, etc) is that the strength gained, and it can be impressive, does not transfer back over to regular BB training. You may use huge weight on the bench/chest machine but going back to regular bench pressing you will find your not nearly as strong as before using the Nautilus equipment. You almost have to retrain the motor units to bench press properly. If you were BB rowing 260, did the pullover machine for three month's (for example) chances would be that you would have a tough time rowing 220-230 for reps after. Muscle size yes, transferring of strength back to regular free weight (hate that term) training, no. Probably partly due to the arms and other supporting pressing factors not brought into play when doing strictly Nautilus programs (motor units again). Combining both forms of training in one workout may be best if keeping BB strength matching. Good luck.
Side Bar: Is that brother in the pullover machine Mercury Morris of the old Dolphins?
that's Sergio Oliva, JPM.
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No, I mean the brother with the semi Afro and the Dolphin logo on the shirt. Know he was connected with Nautilus for awhile around DeLand, Fla. Watch a lot of his running films, kind of looks like the Man. Good Luck.
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My mistake. I thought there was another picture of a Nautilus machine with a brother on it, not the great Sergio. Unless it was deleted. I must be going through the change. Good Luck.
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Holy shit dude! I feel so freaking stupid, I have no idea what a pullover is! Can someone show me a link so I can see the proper form for it!
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Holy shit dude! I feel so freaking stupid, I have no idea what a pullover is! Can someone show me a link so I can see the proper form for it!
http://www.infinityfitness.com/videos/exer.htm
Look under Pulling sect.
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http://www.infinityfitness.com/videos/exer.htm
Look under Pulling sect.
I thought those pullover exercises were for chest? Maybe I'm looking at the wrong one.
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I thought those pullover exercises were for chest? Maybe I'm looking at the wrong one.
Both Lats and chest. That vid is not so great. I like them crossways on the bench w/ a deep arch.
Can also use a Stability ball. Can pause a heavy weight on the ball like a board press.
EZ curl bar is also a Fav. Get a good stretch and you can focus on lats to. Feel the deep soreness/ delayed muscle soreness is best way to tell where ya's hittn. Then adjust the movements to fit your focus of attack.
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Actually the pullover (BB/DB) will hit the lats and triceps strongly and the pecs to a lesser degree. When you add the bent arm pullover & press , than it becomes a top chest, tricep and lat builder. I have use the pullover & press, as the only exercise,while doing GVT from a 6 to 8 week period with excellent results. Have also SS'ed upright rows with the P&P with GVT. Excellent results again. Probably the upright row and P&P would be the only exercise combo that most men would require for upper body, when on a abbreviated program. Guy's pressed for time might also find this a good choice of exercise. These are easy to do at home also.
Might consider doing any form of the pullover (straight or bent arm) on a flat bench, with the legs drawn up. Of course that would be your own choice. Drawing the legs up reduces the influence of the ab's, if you want a full stretch on the lats and rib box. The Abs can limit the full stretch somewhat. Crossovers, curved or half moon benches do not allow this by the very nature of their design. Most people can handle quite a lot of weight after awhile, so they may require someone to hold the knees for support. Or fix a way so that the knees can brace the body when doing pullovers. 100bs+ for straight arm and 205lb+ for bent arm are well with-in the abilities of most trainee's after awhile. Of course much more with the advance men. Good luck.
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Bottom line is Feeling where a movement hits YOU! We all built a little different and deep muscle soreness
is a real good cue where you hit a muscle. Find that and focus on what your trying to prioritize.
Body don't know the differenc from a BB,DB,Chains, Bands, sandbags, concrete block...
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Bottom line is Feeling where a movement hits YOU! We all built a little different and deep muscle soreness
is a real good cue where you hit a muscle. Find that and focus on what your trying to prioritize.
Body don't know the differenc from a BB,DB,Chains, Bands, sandbags, concrete block...
Key and usually ignored. Throw out all the theories and stick with this.
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Bottom line is Feeling where a movement hits YOU! We all built a little different and deep muscle soreness
is a real good cue where you hit a muscle. Find that and focus on what your trying to prioritize.
Body don't know the differenc from a BB,DB,Chains, Bands, sandbags, concrete block...
Keep preaching man. Gotta find those exercises that hit the targeted area the best. What you say is probably some of the best advice you can anyone on get big.
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you can never tell from watching someone do a movement where they're feeling it, it may look totally wrong but if you're feeling it who cares.
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Key and usually ignored. Throw out all the theories and stick with this.
My pecs were thick to start. But I could never isolate Ant. Delts. Looked unballanced.
a Million Incline Bench & DB front raise never did jack. That's the standard cure, right?
I was NEVER able to isolate a good deep pain in that spot.
One day I got my 16' alumacraft stuck bad, had to press real hard on the bow, away from my Body, rocking it...
Next day- very sore right in the ant delts where I Never could hit. Time to totally rethink it.
Over the yrs been able to find half-a-dozen moves that are similar.
Now,.. Yrs After I finaly built some mass there, the standard inclines (esp part ROM) are adding to it.
They are starting to get more prominent than my pecs, which is what I want.
Comercial gyms have a lot of bad points to them.
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My pecs were thick to start. But I could never isolate Ant. Delts. Looked unballanced.
a Million Incline Bench & DB front raise never did jack. That's the standard cure, right?
I was NEVER able to isolate a good deep pain in that spot.
One day I got my 16' alumacraft stuck bad, had to press real hard on the bow, away from my Body, rocking it...
Next day- very sore right in the ant delts where I Never could hit. Time to totally rethink it.
Over the yrs been able to find half-a-dozen moves that are similar.
Now,.. Yrs After I finaly built some mass there, the standard inclines (esp part ROM) are adding to it.
They are starting to get more prominent than my pecs, which is what I want.
Comercial gyms have a lot of bad points to them.
Experiment. Try every variation.
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Ok, you guys are obviously WAY more advanced than I am. I like to just SS all my sets of back with 5 pull-ups (at the end of the day, adds up to a bunch!) perfect form all the way up and all the way down. Always leaves my lats sore next day. I just don't get the same feeling from pull-downs, I seem to feel it more in my bi's than in my back. Regardless of how much weight, reps, or thumb placement I use. I don't have a pullover machine at my gym, so I just do a lot of pull-ups, close-grip, regular grip, and super wide at the end. Mix in some BB bent over rows or seated rows. May sound crazy, but at the end of the day I've done 120 pull-ups! I definitely need to add some crazy thickness to my back though. Don't know why, but even after all those pull-ups and rows, I just don't see a big back like I thought I would. I'm always open for suggestions.
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Ok, you guys are obviously WAY more advanced than I am. I like to just SS all my sets of back with 5 pull-ups (at the end of the day, adds up to a bunch!) perfect form all the way up and all the way down. Always leaves my lats sore next day. I just don't get the same feeling from pull-downs, I seem to feel it more in my bi's than in my back. Regardless of how much weight, reps, or thumb placement I use. I don't have a pullover machine at my gym, so I just do a lot of pull-ups, close-grip, regular grip, and super wide at the end. Mix in some BB bent over rows or seated rows. May sound crazy, but at the end of the day I've done 120 pull-ups! I definitely need to add some crazy thickness to my back though. Don't know why, but even after all those pull-ups and rows, I just don't see a big back like I thought I would. I'm always open for suggestions.
If it's working for you in terms of feelin it in the right areas, you're already most of the way there. Now try tweakin it around what already works, see if that furthers the effect:
-Lots of reps already, so start adding more weight and reduce reps.
-Sometimes try compound supersets instead: 2 different consecutive exercises for the same muscle.
-The rows should be just as effective as chins. Try different versions of rows like t-bar or hammer rows or 1-arm DB rows, etc. until you have something as effective as the chins.
-Add some pullovers at least some of the time. You can either add them to the existing back work or substitute them for one of the other two some of the time.
-Think about the diet; if your workouts are already effective it might be a lack of additional nutrients that stops you from increasing size. Extra's needed for that.
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If it's working for you in terms of feelin it in the right areas, you're already most of the way there. Now try tweakin it around what already works, see if that furthers the effect:
-Lots of reps already, so start adding more weight and reduce reps.
-Sometimes try compound supersets instead: 2 different consecutive exercises for the same muscle.
-The rows should be just as effective as chins. Try different versions of rows like t-bar or hammer rows or 1-arm DB rows, etc. until you have something as effective as the chins.
-Add some pullovers at least some of the time. You can either add them to the existing back work or substitute them for one of the other two some of the time.
-Think about the diet; if your workouts are already effective it might be a lack of additional nutrients that stops you from increasing size. Extra's needed for that.
Thanks for the advice. I just did back today, so I'll make sure I implement those tactics next time. Just a couple of quick questions though:
What is a hammer row? (I know, it's sounds stupid, but I have no idea what that is!)
I don't have a t-bar row machine in my gym, what's a substitute?
Also, no pull-over machine either (my gym sucks, but I'm military, gotta work with what I got!) do the pullovers on the bench work as well?
Working on the diet, trying to eat more meat and just started on some creatine this week. Let you know how it works out in a couple of weeks.
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-Use ab straps as an alternative to pullover machines: read through this thread.
-Hammer is just a generic term, a particular well-known brand of leverage machine rows as shown here.
-T-bar attachments that will fit an olypic bar cost almost nothing, ask the gym about getting one, as shown below. And/or try this lying version of BB rows, that i find better than standard BB rows.
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Gotcha. Thanks for the excellent advice!
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Weighted pullups are KING for upper lat width, however, nothing, NOTHING compares to the pullover machine for absolute lat THICKNESS. For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of using a Nautilis pullover machine, I would highly recommend you try and find a gym with one. The isolation it gives for the lats is unlike any other free weight exercise, even dumbell pullovers. With the dumbell you often just end up working the chest and triceps more so that the lats.
yes, those nautilus pullovers are great. pullovers are probably the most underrated exercise. they destroy lats, chest, and triceps, all while expanding your ribcage and giving your whole upper body awesome shape.
for pure lat THICKNESS though id have to go with underhand grip, bent over barbell rows, heavy, with a pause at the top.
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sometimes I add in a extra training. when i have a down week, like this one. I work on some bodyparts that need to come up but not lagging. i mainly do upper chest and some wide grip chins and close grip pulldowns.. I've notice since swithing to a close grip pulldowns fist in my back rotine that my lat have gotten wider. remember, if you want wider back do everything close grip and if y want a thicker back you need a wider grip