Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Livewire on June 29, 2007, 07:45:50 AM
-
Here is the final third of the movie. I often wonder if Big Lou-ser hadn't done the movie... would he have won the whole show in 76 or 77? He probably wouldn't have been offered the Hulk role... but would WINNING something have made him a happier person in life?
Pumping Iron: Part 7
http://www.getanabolics.com/2007/06/our-seventh-installment-of-pumping-iron.html
Pumping Iron: Part 8
http://www.getanabolics.com/2007/06/pumping-iron-89.html
Pumping Iron: Part 9 (final clip)
http://www.getanabolics.com/2007/06/final-clip-from-pumping-iron.html
-
IF lou would of won, his asshole dad still would of made him feel like a moron hahahha
-
I think Lou's biggest mistake (apparently it upset Butler a great deal), was asking the cameramen for $20 after every scene was shot...
-
yea, his dad was a jerk. but lou could have owned arnold in another 2 years of growing.
-
lou could have owned arnold in another 2 years of growing.
Who's your crack dealer?
As Arnold said in Pumping Iron, "I get bigger too, so it doesn't matter. Let's get it over with." 8)
-
No, his legs were no good, his lats so-so, his arms weren't that good (no peak). He was a big BB but just not Olympia material.
-
Arnold had said if he had Louie's genetics he could build a physique that wouldn't be beat for 20 years.
-
yea, his dad was a jerk. but lou could have owned arnold in another 2 years of growing.
Wishful thinking; he never had muscle maturity or Arnold's refinement or volume, and nothing in his personality screamed winner.
Arnold had said if he had Louie's genetics he could build a physique that wouldn't be beat for 20 years.
Arnold IMO being nice saying Lou could've won in the 70s i don't think he was ever better than Nubret, Fox, Oliva, Padilla, etc..
-
Arnold had said if he had Louie's genetics he could build a physique that wouldn't be beat for 20 years.
That's another way of saying, "Lou is too dumb and lazy to create a winning physique despite his great genetics."
Classic Arnold head games.
-
It wasn't just his dad that controlled him.
(http://digilander.libero.it/louferrign/lf82.jpg)
Didn't have the genetics of Arnold.
(http://digilander.libero.it/gruppociak/splou3.jpg)
-
Classic Arnold head games.
The only head games are with you, he has you believing it at every turn. Arnold was just being gracious after the fact.
-
Lou's biggest mistake was listening to that twat of a dad of his - he let the guy totally control him. Louie lacks serious confidence in Pumping Iron and all it did was make Arnold look all the greater.
-
Lou's biggest mistake was listening to that twat of a dad of his - he let the guy totally control him. Louie lacks serious confidence in Pumping Iron and all it did was make Arnold look all the greater.
Give him a break, he didn't know better & wasn't savvy. Anyone in that state of mind with a learning disorder would've done same; he was basically a kid.
As far as the Dad thing, as you probably know parts of that were staged for the movie; his Dad was never his trainer in reality. Nor was he training in Brooklyn he was in Venice.
-
He wasn't that much younger than Arnold when he did the movie.
Nonetheless, to be honest I do think he got a raw deal from that film - it was really all about Arnold who probably had a say in how it was to be staged.
-
He wasn't that much younger than Arnold when he did the movie.
Nonetheless, to be honest I do think he got a raw deal from that film - it was really all about Arnold who probably had a say in how it was to be staged.
Yup, Arnold and Weide managed the movie as basically a star vehicle, which is why it wasn't as accurate as the book in showing other BBs like Oliva, Nubret, etc.
As far as age, Ferrigno was in his early 20s with a learning disability, so figure on him being in his mid-teens mentally.
-
Yup, Arnold and Weide managed the movie as basically a star vehicle, which is why it wasn't as accurate as the book in showing other BBs like Oliva, Nubret, etc.
As far as age, Ferrigno was in his early 20s with a learning disability, so figure on him being in his mid-teens mentally.
True - I take it back - Arnold must have seen him coming.
The Pumping Iron book was so much better than the film - it was a decent sensible account of bodybuilding showing a multitude of big names in the sport at the time, their lifestyles and their personalities. If the sport had gone on and followed that example then it might be a bit more popular today....
-
True - I take it back - Arnold must have seen him coming.
The Pumping Iron book was so much better than the film - it was a decent sensible account of bodybuilding showing a multitude of big names in the sport at the time, their lifestyles and their personalities. If the sport had gone on and followed that example then it might be a bit more popular today....
Totally a softball set-up for Arnold & Weider that movie - never focused on any other great BBs; guys like Nubret or Oliva who weren't dummies.
-
Arnold said that the film was a "docu-drama"; which would explain some of the discrepancies.
As for Ferrigno, I don't recall him having a learning disability; he was simply (partially) deaf; hence, it took him a bit longer to learn how to read and speak.
-
-
Arnold said that the film was a "docu-drama"; which would explain some of the discrepancies.
As for Ferrigno, I don't recall him having a learning disability; he was simply (partially) deaf; hence, it took him a bit longer to learn how to read and speak.
Yeah, he learned how to scam little kids out of cash at ever opportunity, so he can't be too dumb.
-
Lou simply needed more size, because of his height. He was 268 at the 1975 Olympia. Perhaps, had he hit 285 or 290, he would have looked as thick as Arnold did (in comparison).
-
Anyone got pics of him during his prep for the Masters? I head he was getting close to 300 before he got "sick".
-
Anyone got pics of him during his prep for the Masters? I head he was getting close to 300 before he got "sick".
He was 315 at the 1993 Olympia. Exactly what sickness did he get?
-
He got a stomach flu before one of his masters attempts. I put it in "scare quotes" to sound sinister. ;)
-
He got a stomach flu before one of his masters attempts. I put it in "scare quotes" to sound sinister. ;)
He only entered the Masters Olympia once (the first one). Despite being heavily favored, he placed second to Robby Robinson.
-
Totally a softball set-up for Arnold & Weider that movie - never focused on any other great BBs; guys like Nubret or Oliva who weren't dummies.
I agree with you on the Nubret aspect. As for Oliva? Homeboy wasn't shooting for the '75 Olympia so I can see why he wasn't included.
-
He only entered the Masters Olympia once (the first one). Despite being heavily favored, he placed second to Robby Robinson.
Ok, so that was the one he got "sick" just before the show. Anyway:
(http://www.lector.net/vermay00/cultur8.jpg)
BOOM!
$20 bucks to get this bad boy signed!
-
(http://www.schwarzenegger.it/mro/ferrigno/lf149.jpg)
Thats how your receptors respond after a layoff. Sombody get Kovaks on the phone!
-
I agree with you on the Nubret aspect. As for Oliva? Homeboy wasn't shooting for the '75 Olympia so I can see why he wasn't included.
He wasn't in it for the same reason he didn't show up in '73 and '74. Knew he wouldn't win just as in '72 becuase it was a Weider show.
-
Totally a softball set-up for Arnold & Weider that movie - never focused on any other great BBs; guys like Nubret or Oliva who weren't dummies.
Who else would have given the movie the flair that Schwarzenegger did?
Plus, there's the segment of the film, covering the Universe, in which Arnold is hardly mentioned.
-
Who else would have given the movie the flair that Schwarzenegger did?
Plus, there's the segment of the film, covering the Universe, in which Arnold is hardly mentioned.
true
-
Who else would have given the movie the flair that Schwarzenegger did?
Plus, there's the segment of the film, covering the Universe, in which Arnold is hardly mentioned.
You're mixing one thing with the other. No one's denying the need for Arnold's presence, but there were enough areas of the film outside of that that could've been more inclusive of other BBs.
The problem that you're apparently unwilling to accept is that greater accuracy in the book would've interfered with the star vehicle the movie was meant to be. There was really no need for segments on Columbu or Katz when other BBs or training could've been shown that would've better reflected the book.
-
(http://www.schwarzenegger.it/mro/ferrigno/lf149.jpg)
Thats how your receptors respond after a layoff. Sombody get Kovaks on the phone!
as offensive as his personality is, he did look good for that comeback, got 12th at the Olympia (94?) doing cardio nonstop up to the day of the show, and claimed (and i probably believe him) that he looked tons better the next day when he filled out.
IMO he could have won 2 Olympias. Wasn't he very young in Pumping Iron? Five more years and he would have easily won over zane and franco, being taller and wider.
-
as offensive as his personality is, he did look good for that comeback, got 12th at the Olympia (94?) doing cardio nonstop up to the day of the show, and claimed (and i probably believe him) that he looked tons better the next day when he filled out.
IMO he could have won 2 Olympias. Wasn't he very young in Pumping Iron? Five more years and he would have easily won over zane and franco, being taller and wider.
2 Olympias were possible *if* he improved, which he didn't show much ambition for; then again in fair contests Nubret, Oliva, Fox, Szkalak, Robinson and Padilla would've been there every year too. ;)
-
Was Lou 20 during pumping Iron?
If so, I'd guess he was a more complete 20 than all those other guys, Arnold included.
-
Ferrign2o would nevre have won an olympia.
zane killed him on shape, franco killed him on thickness.
lou made the right choice going to tv
-
Please. This O was made for Arnold. As long as he showed up looking competition ready, the Weider's already had the score cards completed. He was their boy.
-
No, his legs were no good, his lats so-so, his arms weren't that good (no peak). He was a big BB but just not Olympia material.
Yup! Folks forget he beat nobody in the 75 Olympia Hvy wt class, he got 3rd out of 3 and was outclassed by Serge Nubret for 2nd , a good 50-60 lbs lighter.
Lou made the most of his bodybuilding by going into Hollywood.
-
Please. This O was made for Arnold. As long as he showed up looking competition ready, the Weider's already had the score cards completed. He was their boy.
Agreed BUT he was also alot better than Ferrigno.
-
He only entered the Masters Olympia once (the first one). Despite being heavily favored, he placed second to Robby Robinson.
He also fell off the stage in that show...
Another reason he got 2nd was he had blatant balloon-like calf implants...
He cried like a bitch after the placings - this was edited out of later versions of the movie Stand Tall which was meant to be lou's version of pumping iron - but as usual he blew it by losing again....
christ, in one scene he gives his retirement speach and he's copied it word for word from arnold at the 75 olympia - his whole life is like a piss-weak version of arnolds.
-
that's incredible.
anyone have pics of lou's calf implants?
-
that's incredible.
anyone have pics of lou's calf implants?
http://www.musclemayhem.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15416
-
yea, his dad was a jerk. but lou could have owned arnold in another 2 years of growing.
his dad was instructed to act like that through the movie.......
-
how come they never banned serge for the naked scenes?
-
did serge upset everybody by bringing a white bitch to south africa with him?
-
You're mixing one thing with the other. No one's denying the need for Arnold's presence, but there were enough areas of the film outside of that that could've been more inclusive of other BBs.
The problem that you're apparently unwilling to accept is that greater accuracy in the book would've interfered with the star vehicle the movie was meant to be. There was really no need for segments on Columbu or Katz when other BBs or training could've been shown that would've better reflected the book.
What part of "docu-drama" didn't you understand?
Furthermore, Pumping Iron would have been filmed with or without Arnold. Without him, it wouldn't have done as well. Remember that he wanted to be in the movie, but he didn't want to compete. George Butler didn't want it like that. If Arnold didn't compete, Butler wasn't going to put him in the film.
According to Arnold, the investors thought a lot of the footage was boring. That's a reason why they set up scenes to make things interesting, such as Ken Waller's "plot" to fluster Mike Katz by hiding his T-shirt. As you may know, that scene (with Waller, Robby Robinson, and another guy whose name I can't remember, throwing the football around) was shot after the Universe.
The movie does a nice transition: From Arnold guest-posing at a prison, to pics of him in the magazines, to an amateur (looking up to Arnold) getting tips from the Oak, to that amateur competing in a local show, to Mike Katz guest-posing at that show, to Katz's background (starting with him playing with his kids), to his commentary on his competition at the Universe and seeing Waller as his chief competition, to the football scene with Waller and crew, listening to Waller criticize Katz's physique he plans to "mess his (Katz's) mind up a little bit".
With Franco Columbu, the only interesting thing the filmmakers could do was have him move that car in his old home country of Sardinia.
Most of what I've just mentioned takes a good chunk of time from the film, WITHOUT Schwarzenegger involved at all. The films showcase two contests: The Universe and the Olympia. They wanted to make each contest appear to be a two-man show: The Mr. Universe, being between Katz and Waller; and the Mr. Olympia, between Ferrigno and Schwarzenegger.
That helped make the film more intriguing, setting up the "mind games", supposedly pulled off by Waller and Schwarzenegger on Katz and Ferrigno, respectively.
-
If he would have just listened to his dad when he told him to turn to the left side of the audience and then the right side of the audience when he hit the front double biceps pose, he may have won! LOL
-
Here is Serge right before he came to S. Africa for the 75 O. When he got there and they saw him, he was told he could not compete. He was upset and dropped 20 lbs. not eating, training or sleeping. When they noticed this, they let him back in the contest last minute. He still beat Lou and everyone except Arnold landing second place. There was no serious competition for Arnold that year...except Serge.
(http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u99/klach79/sn544.jpg)
He only beat Ferrigno. Nubret only had two opponents, as everyone else was in the "under 200-lb." class. Plus, how are you so sure that, had he beaten Schwarzenegger, he would have defeated Franco Columbu for the overall?
Remember that Columbu beat the "over 200-lb." class winner the following year to win his first Olympia.
-
would you buy a book written by Lou Ferrigno? Like an autobiography?
-
would you buy a book written by Lou Ferrigno? Like an autobiography?
I'd read it online for kicks. I wouldn't shell out $20 for it.
-
He was 315 at the 1993 Olympia. Exactly what sickness did he get?
Exactly 55 pounds heavier than the 75 MrO and Milos claims that most Pros are on less than a gram a week thing that make you go hmmm
-
I don't buy the "Serge was better than Arnold" deal. Every pic I've seen Arnold owns the competition (his arms and back were better than Nubret) and if Nubret was the natural you believe him to be, Montana, why would he drop 20 lbs.
It's a one-sided story. And you've only heard it from Nubret.
-
Anyone who looks at Serge's bearded picture and others like it when he first arrived to S. Africa will not agree with you. The old schoolers call him "The Uncrowned Mr. Olympia." IFBB pros, organizers and bodybuilding legends have said it. He still beat Ferrigno AFTER losing 20 lbs. after being told for several weeks he was not allowed to compete...when his spirit and physique were broken down from being wrongly defamed and the friendship betrayed. You completely ignore the main point--that bad sportsmanship was shown; Serge was treated unfair. If you discuss Serge's '75 O physique with disregard to what happened to him, you will be seen as someone with a blind spot so large you lack credibility. I did not say I was sure he would beat Schwarzenegger. THE WEIDERS said it clearly by disqualifying Serge for no reason...waiting to do it after he arrives there showing his condition and not letting him compete until he was broken down in size, weight and spirit. Look at pictures of Serge when he got to S. Africa...no one had the muscular development, striation, definition, balance, superb overall shape, size and aesthetic beauty. If Franco had been the one Arnold had to worry about beating, Franco would not have been allowed to compete (he probably would have been encouraged to wait until the next year). Your argument is convoluted. What Franco did the following year in comparison with Ken Waller (who was not as great as Serge...is that why you don't even name or show a picture of him to compare) have anything to do with the 1975 contest? It's irrelevant. You might as well talk about Bigfoot. The reason I showed the pictures and documents of IFBB, Ben, Serge, Arnold is so I don't have to convince anyone of anything. The evidence and records speak for themselves. Go for the fine print to see. History's artifacts tell the story. My point is not so much who should win; it's that things should be fair and history should be remembered accurately. Otherwise the game/sport of bodybuilding and whole process of judging a contest has no value. They banned him in S. Africa from competing in '75. But when they saw that he stopped training, dropped 20 lbs. and his spirit was broken down, they felt the playing field was leveled, so they let him back in the last minute...otherwise he would have still been out. I answered this previously thinking you were asking why they didn't ban Serge permanently from the IFBB. He quit after the 1975 Olympia.
Everything Made In Motana said is True, even the great one Serge backed the facts in detail, who would have won if Serge had the physique he had before he was banned Arnold of course the same that happened to Sergio in 72 but it would have created an unfavourable glow to Arnolds win.
AS Said by Joe Weider i can sell x amount of magazines with Sergio on the cover or 3x times the magazines with Arnold on the cover.
Utter political Bullshit.
One more thing on my rant i can see why Mike Menzter retired on stage at theMrO80
-
As Arnold said : "the little guy who doesn't have it hides away when he poses whereas the big guy will come sight out with it".
Serge always hid away when he posed, always a variation of a slighly sideways hands down most muscular pose to maximise what little muscle he had. When he hit a straight on double Bi everything dissapeared. No wonder Lou beat him in 1974 and Tony Emmot in 1977 and Bertil Fox in 1978.
He lost 20 lbs in 2 weeks ? What does that say about his training and drug usage? Serge was good but not great except in his own mind.
-
jimmy: do you know a guy named henry akunde?
-
As Arnold said : "the little guy who doesn't have it hides away when he poses whereas the big guy will come sight out with it".
Serge always hid away when he posed, always a variation of a slighly sideways hands down most muscular pose to maximise what little muscle he had. When he hit a straight on double Bi everything dissapeared. No wonder Lou beat him in 1974 and Tony Emmot in 1977 and Bertil Fox in 1978.
He lost 20 lbs in 2 weeks ? What does that say about his training and drug usage? Serge was good but not great except in his own mind.
Retarded post. ???
-
See what I mean ? The big boys are hitting basic poses head on. Serge is doing his usual side on compression pose to hide his multitude of weaknesses.
-
Clear enough for you "TheDoctor" ???????
-
would Mike Mentzer have quite if Arnold would have finished anything but first? or was Mike more upset about his own placement?
-
Lou biggest mistake was being born. As far as his father was concerned he might have been a prick but he pushed Lou to success. When Lou went to Africa to compete against Arnold in the Olympia they first stopped in France for a guest posing expo and Lou was Booed off the stage because he was too heavy. His dad in the next 7 days before the Olympia made him run in 90 degree plus weather to lose the excess weight and he came in a few pounds over weight and came in third. Why does everyone feel sorry for this waste of life who screws everyone who he comes in contact with. Her is a first class P.O.S.
-
if your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle.
serge never presented a physique on stage that was competitive with arnold. end of story. getting stiffed by weider absolutely sucks, but...put it this way, could anyone ever see arnold copping that bs or dropping the ball and, after all the prep, just lie down in defeat 2 weeks before the o?
ferrigno never produced a physique anywhere near close to mr o quality and completeness. end of story.
the difference between 1970's lou and 20 years later was simply more drugs (not cardio - lmao), probably the biggest factor was the addition of gh and igf 1.
ferrigno pulled out all the stops and everything money could buy (read: drugs) on this one, including the calf implants. he desperately needed this one for closure and really thought he was big enough to pull it off, hence the doco drama of sorts at the masters.
unfortunately he still (20 years later) failed to understand that simply adding copious quantities of ripped beef does not equal mr olympia glory. :'(
-
I would have liked to see Serge hit the poses straight on like Jimmy pointed out. There is always a little twist in his posing that distracts you from seeing him for what he really is. Not taking anything away from Serge. I think we could compare fairly well in most poses.
-
Exactly. Serge was NEVER. Mr. O material, and these attempts at making it sound like he was are pathetic.
Serge disappears in the usual poses when compared to others.
-
240, how old are you? You really keep messing up dates and the history of bodybuilding. First off, Lou was not 20 when he filmed Pumping Iron in 1975. He was 24. He did not have a learning disability. He did not come in 12th in 1994. He made his comeback in 1992 at 41 years of age, where he placed 12th. the following year (1993) he placed 10th at 318 pounds (NOT 315 pounds) and in 1994, at the Masters he was down to 298 pounds, placing behind R. Robbinson. Hope this helps son.
-
Anyone who looks at Serge's bearded picture and others like it when he first arrived to S. Africa will not agree with you. The old schoolers call him "The Uncrowned Mr. Olympia." IFBB pros, organizers and bodybuilding legends have said it. He still beat Ferrigno AFTER losing 20 lbs. after being told for several weeks he was not allowed to compete...when his spirit and physique were broken down from being wrongly defamed and the friendship betrayed. You completely ignore the main point--that bad sportsmanship was shown; Serge was treated unfair. If you discuss Serge's '75 O physique with disregard to what happened to him, you will be seen as someone with a blind spot so large you lack credibility.
Before you talk about blind spots and lacking credibility, it would help if you actually read and comprehend what I ACTUALLY posted.
My response of "He only beat Ferrigno" was a DIRECT refutation of your claim, "He still beat Lou and everyone except Arnold landing second place.", which is incorrect. Serge Nubret did not compete, head-to-head, with any of the under-200-lb. class competitors. That means he did not beat Franco Columbu; he did not beat ED Corney; he did not beat Albert Beckles. Nubret's direct competiton consisted of two guys: Arnold Schwarzenegger and Lou Ferrigno. Since Arnold placed first and Serge placed second, it means that what I said was accurate: He (Nubret) only beat Ferrigno.
I did not say I was sure he would beat Schwarzenegger. THE WEIDERS said it clearly by disqualifying Serge for no reason...waiting to do it after he arrives there showing his condition and not letting him compete until he was broken down in size, weight and spirit. Look at pictures of Serge when he got to S. Africa...no one had the muscular development, striation, definition, balance, superb overall shape, size and aesthetic beauty. If Franco had been the one Arnold had to worry about beating, Franco would not have been allowed to compete (he probably would have been encouraged to wait until the next year). Your argument is convoluted. What Franco did the following year in comparison with Ken Waller (who was not as great as Serge...is that why you don't even name or show a picture of him to compare) have anything to do with the 1975 contest? It's irrelevant.
Another lapse of comprehension on your part. My question didn't ask if you were sure that Nubret would have beaten Schwarzenegger, but rather it was what makes you sure that (had he beaten Schwarzenegger) Nubret would have defeated Columbu for the overall.
That also addresses your earlier inaccurate statement that Serge beat everybody, except Arnold. Said another way, we know that Arnold was "numero uno" at the '75 Olympia. But, who was #2: The runner-up in the over-100-lb. class (Nubret) or the winner of the under-200-lb. class (Columbu)?
Your argument is convoluted. What Franco did the following year in comparison with Ken Waller (who was not as great as Serge...is that why you don't even name or show a picture of him to compare) have anything to do with the 1975 contest? It's irrelevant. You might as well talk about Bigfoot. The reason I showed the pictures and documents of IFBB, Ben, Serge, Arnold is so I don't have to convince anyone of anything. The evidence and records speak for themselves. Go for the fine print to see. History's artifacts tell the story. My point is not so much who should win; it's that things should be fair and history should be remembered accurately. Otherwise the game/sport of bodybuilding and whole process of judging a contest has no value. They banned him in S. Africa from competing in '75. But when they saw that he stopped training, dropped 20 lbs. and his spirit was broken down, they felt the playing field was leveled, so they let him back in the last minute...otherwise he would have still been out. I answered this previously thinking you were asking why they didn't ban Serge permanently from the IFBB. He quit after the 1975 Olympia.
If any thing is irrevelant, it's all this blubbering of yours, as it relates to the Pumping Iron movie, which is the subject of this thread, for one simple reason (One more time!!!): The movie was a "docu-drama".
I mentioned Columbu and Waller in the '76 Olympia to make the point that winning the over-200-lb. class was not a lock for winning the overall Mr. Olympia title, again addressing your inaccurate statement that Nubret beat everyone at the '75 Olympia, except Arnold.
In fact, from 1976 to 1980, the over-200-lb. class winners LOST the overall. If Frank Zane, who was smaller than Franco Columbu (Zane was taller but not as thick or massive) can beat Mike Mentzer and Robby Robinson (two men, especially Robinson, who were much more massive and thicker than Serge Nubret....even with those 20 extra lbs.), then Columbu definitely could have defeated Serge Nubret, had the Frenchman gotten by the Oak for the over-200-lb. class award.
-
I will say Serge looks tremendously better and harder in the photos that are not competition photos, which makes me believe that he could never dial it in when it counted.
-
would Mike Mentzer have quite if Arnold would have finished anything but first? or was Mike more upset about his own placement?
If anyone should have been complaining, it was runner-up Chris Dickerson. He had little problem with his placing.
Mentzer's beef was more with Schwarzenegger than anything else. Even if Dickerson had won and the Oak had placed second, Mentzer would have still been in fifth....BEHIND Arnold.
Mentzer was also miffed about Arnold being the holdup for abolishing the weight classes. I guess Arnold liked things as they were. Maybe he was thinking, "I'm going to beat all you guys anyway; so in the grand scheme of things who cares who's #2."
I think all that bickering about the weight classes was really about the other competitors, getting a leg-up, particularly the runners-up in the weight classes. Usually, the runner-up in a contest gets a lot of hype and publicity and is viewed at the number-one contender, sometimes favored to win the following year. Prior to 1980, the class winner, who lost the overall, was viewed as the number one contender.
-
Made in Montana wrote: "In all fairness..in terms of posing...I don't think these guys synchronized to hit the exact pose at exactly the same time always so it's hard to be critical about how they are standing in comparison to one another every moment."
No. Find any pic of Serge hitting a NORMAL pose and we can find a pic of Arnold dwarfing him in that same pose.
Oh and also, you say tastes are different. True. Then your judging criteria simply differ from those of the olympia judges, cause Serge would NOT have won even in that peak condition.
-
Wishful thinking; he never had muscle maturity or Arnold's refinement or volume, and nothing in his personality screamed winner.
Arnold IMO being nice saying Lou could've won in the 70s i don't think he was ever better than Nubret, Fox, Oliva, Padilla, etc..
I don't think Arnold was playing any head games with that statement. I have an old SI from 1974 or 1975 and Arnold is interviewed. He said if he had Louie's body for 30 days he could build a body that would be better than his own.
-
I will say Serge looks tremendously better and harder in the photos that are not competition photos, which makes me believe that he could never dial it in when it counted.
Ludicrous assumption. Also watch a movie called Pumping Iron.
-
What part of "docu-drama" didn't you understand?
Furthermore, Pumping Iron would have been filmed with or without Arnold. Without him, it wouldn't have done as well. Remember that he wanted to be in the movie, but he didn't want to compete. George Butler didn't want it like that. If Arnold didn't compete, Butler wasn't going to put him in the film.
According to Arnold, the investors thought a lot of the footage was boring. That's a reason why they set up scenes to make things interesting, such as Ken Waller's "plot" to fluster Mike Katz by hiding his T-shirt. As you may know, that scene (with Waller, Robby Robinson, and another guy whose name I can't remember, throwing the football around) was shot after the Universe.
The movie does a nice transition: From Arnold guest-posing at a prison, to pics of him in the magazines, to an amateur (looking up to Arnold) getting tips from the Oak, to that amateur competing in a local show, to Mike Katz guest-posing at that show, to Katz's background (starting with him playing with his kids), to his commentary on his competition at the Universe and seeing Waller as his chief competition, to the football scene with Waller and crew, listening to Waller criticize Katz's physique he plans to "mess his (Katz's) mind up a little bit".
With Franco Columbu, the only interesting thing the filmmakers could do was have him move that car in his old home country of Sardinia.
Most of what I've just mentioned takes a good chunk of time from the film, WITHOUT Schwarzenegger involved at all. The films showcase two contests: The Universe and the Olympia. They wanted to make each contest appear to be a two-man show: The Mr. Universe, being between Katz and Waller; and the Mr. Olympia, between Ferrigno and Schwarzenegger.
That helped make the film more intriguing, setting up the "mind games", supposedly pulled off by Waller and Schwarzenegger on Katz and Ferrigno, respectively.
No, get it right. It was promoted & launched as a documentary. The revisionist & more accurate docu-drama label wasn't used until much much later. The movie purported to be a realistic depiction in fact the documentary tag was used as a way of giving it veracity as a serious representation.
-
Exactly. Serge was NEVER. Mr. O material, and these attempts at making it sound like he was are pathetic.
Serge disappears in the usual poses when compared to others.
Innacurate; it would have mattered who he'd competed against. Against some of the lesser lights who won the Olympia mid-70s to mid-80s he'd have won somewhere along the line in fair shows.
-
I don't buy the "Serge was better than Arnold" deal. Every pic I've seen Arnold owns the competition (his arms and back were better than Nubret) and if Nubret was the natural you believe him to be, Montana, why would he drop 20 lbs.
It's a one-sided story. And you've only heard it from Nubret.
Who said he was better than Arnold?
However, he was better than most or all the mid-70s to mid-80s Olympia winners. He and a few others like Padilla and Robinson who also got screwed and would've won fair shows.
-
As Arnold said : "the little guy who doesn't have it hides away when he poses whereas the big guy will come sight out with it".
Serge always hid away when he posed, always a variation of a slighly sideways hands down most muscular pose to maximise what little muscle he had. When he hit a straight on double Bi everything dissapeared. No wonder Lou beat him in 1974 and Tony Emmot in 1977 and Bertil Fox in 1978.
He lost 20 lbs in 2 weeks ? What does that say about his training and drug usage? Serge was good but not great except in his own mind.
You really don't know BB to be able to say that. This is little muscle? Outside of Arnold & Sergio there was none better in the 70s. He was right there with Robinson & Padilla as uncrowned Olympians save for copious Weider contest politics and the so-so names who won various Olympias.
This beats Columbo, Zane, Dickerson and Bannout.
-
You really don't know BB to be able to say that. This is little muscle? Outside of Arnold & Sergio there was none better in the 70s. He was right there with Robinson & Padilla as uncrowned Olympians save for copious Weider contest politics and the so-so names who won various Olympias.
This beats Columbo, Zane, Dickerson and Bannout.
Did he compete, head-up, against Zane, or Columbu, or Dickerson, or Bannout?
Unless he did so, your continued "Serge wuz robbed" bleatings are little more that speculation.
You've yet to demonstrate that, had Nubret defeated Schwarzenegger in 1975, he would have gone onward to defeat Columbu for the overall title.
-
the big Lou-ser, I really like that :)
-
serge had a tremendous physique and it seems he may have had the potential to beat said bbers, but the simple fact is that he didn't. he didn't even compete against them and it is speculative and unfair to those bbers to say that he would have beaten them.
serge had flaws in relation to competitive bbing criteria, namely that his legs were very underdeveloped compared to his upper body. on a stage, by comparison to the aformentioned bbers, they were terrible.
peak bannout and dickerson would have mopped the floor with him.
that is no disrespect against serge. some of the shots of him are better than any upper torso i've ever seen. leonardo davinci couldn't have created a better work of art, but competitive bbing is a different ball game (i didn't say better, just different). from what the man has stated on the subject, it seems that he really didn't want to have the huge wheels anyway and, if he did train with an intent to acquire them, would he have maintained his unique quality?
serge chose not to compete at some point and, at the end of the day, it was probably a very smart decision, especially if he was going to be treated like he was pre 1975 mr o.
he obviously continued to work on his magnificent work of art and made somewhat of a career for himself. many would say that his physique was better for it, which makes me think that maybe serge was not suited for competition anyway. his physique and personality was unique, that being consistant with the artist he was.
-
Did he compete, head-up, against Zane, or Columbu, or Dickerson, or Bannout?
Unless he did so, your continued "Serge wuz robbed" bleatings are little more that speculation.
You've yet to demonstrate that, had Nubret defeated Schwarzenegger in 1975, he would have gone onward to defeat Columbu for the overall title.
Some of us think out the box while the sheep accept Weider's highly commercial contest placings at face value.
Columbu, Zane, Dickerson and Bannout winning was basically like the Olympics without the Soviets, given the numbers of top guys who left or retired from the IFBB because of this crap. They saw it clearly while you continue with selective memory.
-
How do you know who I have talked to? lol. Serge is a family friend. I have a family member who started bodybuilding in the 1940s. Because of it...I've learned a lot from quite a few people actually.
Steve Reeves?
-
Some of us think out the box while the sheep accept Weider's highly commercial contest placings at face value.
Columbu, Zane, Dickerson and Bannout winning was basically like the Olympics without the Soviets, given the numbers of top guys who left or retired from the IFBB because of this crap. They saw it clearly while you continue with selective memory.
Who was stopping Serge Nubret from competing? Nobody! He chose to bail from the IFBB. So be it.
Funny you should mention sheep, as you're the one doing all the bleating about Serge being robbed.
Some of us don't turn on the water works and wail about our favorite bodybuilder being robbed, when he doesn't get his hand raised in a contest.
What I asked was a simple question: Did Serge Nubret compete, head-to-head with those aforementioned bodybuilders?
If the answer to that is "NO", then all of your weeping and gnasing of teeth about what Nubret would've, could've, or should've have done against them is little more than speculation (with a sprinkle of bitterness).
Again, your claim that Nubret beat everyone in the 1975 Olympia, except Arnold, is FALSE, pure and simple. He did not compete directly against the under-200-lb. weight class competitors. He went against Arnold and Lou and placed second.
-
Some of us think out the box while the sheep accept Weider's highly commercial contest placings at face value.
Columbu, Zane, Dickerson and Bannout winning was basically like the Olympics without the Soviets, given the numbers of top guys who left or retired from the IFBB because of this crap. They saw it clearly while you continue with selective memory.
i don't understand what you're talking about here pump.
which competition exactly do you think serge should have won?
which top guys left or retired from the ifbb that could have made an impact? off the top of my head i'm thinking oliva, nubret, mentzer, padilla, coe, callender...yes, there were quite a few, but then...
oliva had his day in the sun and won a couple before becoming disillusioned with weider.
nubret was never a factor in competition. let's face it. if someone can tell me one mr olympia competition that he should have won, please come forward with the answer. he also became disillusioned with weider.
mentzer spat his dummy and took his bat and ball home but, tbh, the guy was never mr o and there is nothing at all to indicate he ever would be. he had great condition and muscularity and that's it. nothing particularly outstanding apart from that.
padilla was a great short man. should have beaten columbu but that was only because franco's legs were terrible and it was a bad year competition wise. any other year post 1967 and he would have been lucky to get top 6. in any case, he never showed that level of conditioning previous or since.
coe NEVER displayed a mr o physique. way too many flaws, simple as that. in fact i was being generous including him.
callender was a wild card. he was a front runner alright but only on a bad year. nothing particularly outstanding. kind of like dickerson.
dickerson simply didn't have a mr olympia body. did the gay community have something to do with this or was the quality really that bad that year. i'm not going to bother checking the field the year dickerson won it because, if he was the best of them, i would be bored out of my skull watching it.
zane had great structure, balance, symmetry and condition. everything but mass really. obviously a great competitor (as opposed to nubret) as the man knew where his strengths lay and he made sure he was better than everyone else at them. the guy was outmuscled in every olympia he entered but (and this is an important point) he was always balanced and shredded with near perfect symmetry and proportion. nubret had a far far better structure and much better lines and torso development, but he NEVER had zane's proportion (read: weak lower body) or condition on stage. absolutely useless in pics by himself. why some people don't get this fact is beyond comprehension.
YOU HAVE TO COMPETE WITH OTHER COMPETITORS ON STAGE BEFORE YOU CAN BEAT THEM ie pics are useless in this regard.
bannout: didn't like his shape (or his personality - beside the point) personally, but on the night he won he was the best competitor on stage and if someone can come up with a single bber in the world that should have beaten him that night then let's hear your argument?
arguments can be made for fox who came later but they are purely speculative and are useless in the scheme of things so let me just say this and challenge anyone to prove otherwise:
fox NEVER displayed a physique that could have beaten haney, christian, gaspari, labrada, ...(i could go on but i think the point's made) in a bbing contest. again, he looked great 12 weeks out and in mag pics but when he was standing on stage next to the likes of lee haney and richie gaspari he was invisible.
robinson? see fox.
these are the cold hard facts pump. if you can come up with something other than conjecture and speculation please post it.
-
2 Olympias were possible *if* he improved, which he didn't show much ambition for; then again in fair contests Nubret, Oliva, Fox, Szkalak, Robinson and Padilla would've been there every year too. ;)
Pumpster. I would think Louie would have been passed the torch from Arnold. One reason why, he was the type of guy who was marketable. He was very popular. He was 6'5". An interesting story.
-
Pumpster. I would think Louie would have been passed the torch from Arnold. One reason why, he was the type of guy who was marketable. He was very popular. He was 6'5". An interesting story.
Ya that's true. He replaced Draper and Oliva with Arnold and liked the bigger guys over 6' with a herculean look if he had a choice. So that succession would've made sense. Weider probably felt like i do that the smaller guys who won around then were not the ideals.
-
(http://www.schwarzenegger.it/mro/nubret/sn487.jpg)Pumpster...did you really say "Serge wuz robbed" because that sounds more like Elmer Fudd to me. I think Serge WAS robbed...he needed a lot of juice to beat Franco. Some of these guys are right...Serge shouldn't even try because we should decide not to find one good thing about him...and the bad sportsmanship against him doesn't even matter...let's overlook it completely since no one else there did... The Iron Game Legends who were there who tell it like it is...what do they know? Just listen to the people here who weren't there instead! The bottom line is winning at all costs. That's all that matters...you and I are just slow to learn. When the Weiders banned Serge from competing...and slandered his name...they were just kidding...Serge's problem was he didn't have a sense of humor about it. It hurt his family and acting career, but so what? It was a joke...and we can pretend it didn't happen later...
(http://www.schwarzenegger.it/mro/nubret/sn22.jpg)
(http://www.schwarzenegger.it/mro/nubret/sn24.jpg)
Serge, Sergio, Arnold
(http://www.schwarzenegger.it/mro/nubret/sn283.jpg)Can someone tell me what a NORMAL pose is? Evidently, Serge was Mr. World 6 times because he didn't know. Marvin...you missed your calling...you could be standing in front of Serge and showing him how to do a NORMAL pose. "Oh and also"...I will give him the link to this thread so he can read your comment and contact you. If there's time...maybe you could tell us what those Olympia judges were looking for since you were there...weren't you?
(http://mywebpage.netscape.com/IronGameLegendsF/arnser.JPG)
This does not look like a NORMAL pose to me...I'm not sure what's wrong with it, but there has to be something if we look hard enough. Marvin I don't know what to tell Serge how to improve. When he calls you...maybe you could tell him. He'll be grateful for your expertise. He's only been doing it for over 50 years...I'm sure you could teach him a lot.
(http://digilander.libero.it/sergenubret/nub34.jpg)
http://digilander.libero.it/sergenubret/nub34.jpg (http://digilander.libero.it/sergenubret/nub34.jpg)
Those old shots are so much cooler than what are in the magazines today. Not to mention that the physiques of the 70's are lightyears ahead of todays bodybuilders.
-
Reading comprehensions, Made?
I never said I knew how Serge should improve.
I said that Arnold had the better physique.
-
Made in Montana
i know you are very passionate about the wrongs done to your friend, Serge Nubret, by the weiders.
i'm not disputing that at all (in fact i agree that the weiders had a very clear bias with their agenda), but please tell me what mr o contest serge should have won but was denied?
it seems that you and pumpster can type for pages on how serge was ripped off, but i've never seen either of you come up with a single contest that he should have won.
even with those pics that you have provided anyone can clearly see that serge seriously lacked development in the lower body by comparison to arnold and sergio (calves, quads, hams and glutes were all weak compared to upper body).
i am not disrespecting either of you or nubret (he had an awesome physique) but let's bring more rationale and less emotion to this subject.
-
Montana, I have no doubt you know a lot about bodybuilding and Serge, etc.
But do you HONESTLY feel and believe Serge ever looked better than this??
(http://www.schwarzenegger.it/gallery/musclegallery2/xmg120.jpg)
you have got to be kidding me
-
Pic of Sergio for comparison's sake. :)
-
i don't understand what you're talking about here pump.
which competition exactly do you think serge should have won?
which top guys left or retired from the ifbb that could have made an impact? off the top of my head i'm thinking oliva, nubret, mentzer, padilla, coe, callender...yes, there were quite a few, but then...
oliva had his day in the sun and won a couple before becoming disillusioned with weider.
nubret was never a factor in competition. let's face it. if someone can tell me one mr olympia competition that he should have won, please come forward with the answer. he also became disillusioned with weider.
mentzer spat his dummy and took his bat and ball home but, tbh, the guy was never mr o and there is nothing at all to indicate he ever would be. he had great condition and muscularity and that's it. nothing particularly outstanding apart from that.
padilla was a great short man. should have beaten columbu but that was only because franco's legs were terrible and it was a bad year competition wise. any other year post 1967 and he would have been lucky to get top 6. in any case, he never showed that level of conditioning previous or since.
coe NEVER displayed a mr o physique. way too many flaws, simple as that. in fact i was being generous including him.
callender was a wild card. he was a front runner alright but only on a bad year. nothing particularly outstanding. kind of like dickerson.
dickerson simply didn't have a mr olympia body. did the gay community have something to do with this or was the quality really that bad that year. i'm not going to bother checking the field the year dickerson won it because, if he was the best of them, i would be bored out of my skull watching it.
zane had great structure, balance, symmetry and condition. everything but mass really. obviously a great competitor (as opposed to nubret) as the man knew where his strengths lay and he made sure he was better than everyone else at them. the guy was outmuscled in every olympia he entered but (and this is an important point) he was always balanced and shredded with near perfect symmetry and proportion. nubret had a far far better structure and much better lines and torso development, but he NEVER had zane's proportion (read: weak lower body) or condition on stage. absolutely useless in pics by himself. why some people don't get this fact is beyond comprehension.
YOU HAVE TO COMPETE WITH OTHER COMPETITORS ON STAGE BEFORE YOU CAN BEAT THEM ie pics are useless in this regard.
bannout: didn't like his shape (or his personality - beside the point) personally, but on the night he won he was the best competitor on stage and if someone can come up with a single bber in the world that should have beaten him that night then let's hear your argument?
arguments can be made for fox who came later but they are purely speculative and are useless in the scheme of things so let me just say this and challenge anyone to prove otherwise:
fox NEVER displayed a physique that could have beaten haney, christian, gaspari, labrada, ...(i could go on but i think the point's made) in a bbing contest. again, he looked great 12 weeks out and in mag pics but when he was standing on stage next to the likes of lee haney and richie gaspari he was invisible.
robinson? see fox.
these are the cold hard facts pump. if you can come up with something other than conjecture and speculation please post it.
I have to disagree with you about with respect to your comments about Dickerson. How does he not have an Olympia body? Remember that he was the runner-up, two years in a row, before finally winning the title in 1982. And considering the two guys that beat him in 1980 and 1981 were Arnold and Franco (respectively), I'd say Dickerson's physique was a good one.
You gave some rather complimentary statements about Zane. If I'm not mistaken, Dickerson beat Zane to win the '82 Olympia, and this was with Zane regaining his championship form from the 70s.
-
I have to disagree with you about with respect to your comments about Dickerson. How does he not have an Olympia body? Remember that he was the runner-up, two years in a row, before finally winning the title in 1982. And considering the two guys that beat him in 1980 and 1981 were Arnold and Franco (respectively), I'd say Dickerson's physique was a good one.
You gave some rather complimentary statements about Zane. If I'm not mistaken, Dickerson beat Zane to win the '82 Olympia, and this was with Zane regaining his championship form from the 70s.
yes, perhaps. i was never a fan at all of dickerson's physique. short and stocky with no apparent outstanding features imo, but that's just the point, it is just my opinion and that's what i try to point out to posters like pump and Made.
many have opinions of different pics of serge, but unless he's on stage being compared and judged at the highest calibre bbing comp (admit or not)
-
Dickerson did look like he deserve to win in '82, and was right there the preceeding years. Same for Zane other years.
The thing is neither of those guys or Bannout win with the world's best BB on stage, IMO. They were solid contenders all through the 70s until the bigger, better BBs disappeared.
-
He only entered the Masters Olympia once (the first one). Despite being heavily favored, he placed second to Robby Robinson.
It was said that the Masters Olympia was made for him, but Robby, being superior to Lou in everything but weight, spoiled it for him.
-
Made in Montana
i really don't see what your point is. you are imagining this great opposition to nubret or justification of weider. i can't stand the sight of weider and what he did to serge is one of the many reasons why.
no one is arguing that serge was not unfairly delt with prior to the '75 O or with the fact that he was a great bber, but the simple fact is, nubret CHOSE not to compete against the best bbers in the world after that time, REASONS ASIDE.
how the hell can we say whether or not serge could have beaten zane or arnold unless he did so on stage.
show me one so called 'expert' that has ever said that serge should have won a competition without competing in it??? just one will be fine.
-
The point is we're all discussing this with imperfect knowledge of what happened through the 1970s behind the scenes. Thus to argue that perfect proof is necessary to see that the contest results were questionable for a variety of reasons is unrealistic, vs. copious anecdotal evidence concerning Serge and other great BBs of the era who really should've been winning over some of the winners mid-70s - mid-80s.
Just to remind anyone who doesn't realize this, Columbu was never the world's best-built man, but won the Olympia twice. Ferrigno had he competed late-70s might've also won without being the best BB of the time. Huge piece of anecdotal evidence as to the degree of behind the scenes, commercially-driven agendas at work.
And arguing that unless they competed it's all irrelevant is really an unnecessary tangent; as i said we're discussing this with only imperfect evidence to go by.
-
Just to remind anyone who doesn't realize this, Columbu was never the world's best-built man, but won the Olympia twice. Ferrigno had he competed late-70s might've also won without being the best BB of the time.
YES!
While Lou was a big ol douchebag, he certainly would have won an O or two from 77 to 81
-
YES!
While Lou was a big ol douchebag, he certainly would have won an O or two from 77 to 81
Well actually in fair contests, unless he continued to improve he would've been beaten by several other BBs who deserved to win but never did. This is assuming fair judging.
But in Weider's politically controlled shows ya, if Ferrigno had been in shape he'd have probably been allowed to win.
-
Geez, imagine how good this man would have looked with today's nutrition and chemicals.
(http://digilander.libero.it/sergenubret/nub39.jpg)
-
Lou was 21 in pumpin iron.
By 25 he would have been the best in the world for 5 years.
-
IF lou would of won, his asshole dad still would of made him feel like a moron hahahha
hahaha
-
IF lou would of won, his asshole dad still would of made him feel like a moron hahahha
hahahaha yes - "Lou, you FINALLY did it. Bout time."
-
hahahaha yes - "Lou, you FINALLY did it. Bout time."
i bet big lou danced on the old man's grave whne he finally kicked off.
-
The best thing Lou the loser Ferrigno could do for the sport would be to drop dead. His mom passed away last week and he was not at her funeral either. He is a great guy.