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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: SirTraps on August 25, 2007, 03:47:19 PM
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at least for me, going light (225 and under-even 200 and under) with high reps, 6 sets going deep with perfect form is all that i need to have well developed legs.
Everybody is different, but i get good overall strength from squats-good leg development and no back problems. I dont think this is true for upper body development.
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your theory definitely has lots of merit and makes sesne, legs respond well to high reps.
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true.... but i recommend maybe going heavy once every 4-6 weeks great way to build vascularity and density
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It makes sense, we werent designed to walk around on our arms all day.
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your theory definitely has lots of merit and makes sesne, legs respond well to high reps.
yip... that combined with proper depth and form = better leg work... however, if you use 315lbs for the same number of sets and with the same form as 135lbs...
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Would squatting 315 10 times be more productive than 215 20 times ? Im not really talking about 135 except for warming up, but you probably could benefit from doing 25-30 reps with that if you had back problems.
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Would squatting 315 10 times be more productive than 215 20 times ? Im not really talking about 135 except for warming up, but you probably could benefit from doing 25-30 reps with that if you had back problems.
i think it would depend on your physiology... personally i would favor 225 for 20... it's much harder to do
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a little bit of both its as cool to squat 405 x 20 as it is to squat 675 for a single
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I agree I have also started going lighter for higher reps and make sure I go ass to the grass.
I get a heavy burn, insane pump and my looks look a tad tighter.
Heavy squats to parallel seem have taken their toll on my lower back lately.
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Sounds like a lot of you spend a lot of time coming up with reasons not to squat much.
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How is squatting for higher reps "not squatting much" ? ::)
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he must of meant not squating much weight
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i also see alot of guy doing like 4-5 exersizes for quads alone. form and focus is very important on squating but i think doing a prymid rep scheme is also beneficial. 15-12-10 or what u could even start 20-15-10-8
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i think u need to be squatting atleast 315 to have some sort of noticeable leg size.
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I disagree with that, a lot of guys could have big legs just repping the hell out of 225-250. I dont want Earl Cambell thighs 32 inches or whatever.
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i think u need to be squatting atleast 315 to have some sort of noticeable leg size.
I guess it depends on what you call 'noticeable.' I wouldn't notice a 315 pound squatter, unless she's a girl.
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I disagree with that, a lot of guys could have big legs just repping the hell out of 225-250. I dont want Earl Cambell thighs 32 inches or whatever.
Absolutley. If you don't want to get big, stick with the lighter weights.
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::)
Ok "big guy" , another internet 800 pound squatter
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i can squat 315 for only 3 reps. so using 315 at the moment to develop size is out of the question....and my legs arent that bad..
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i like to go back and forth, i did sets of 15 for squats today and sets of 20 on leg press, whe i got done i felt like i just got done sprinting up a hill, not so much lifted weight. but the pump from it was awsome. i usually dont go above sets of 12 but the more i have been reading and talking to people i started doing 15s and 20s. i am a big fan of the 5x5 and 4x6 set ups but have never gained much size on legs with it.
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I think legs respond well to high reps, as has been discussed here, upper body i dont feel this is true.
If you arent a competitive powerlifter and want to avoid disc problems in your back and arthritis in your hips when you get older-i think its a good way to train and get good results. :D
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I like to go heavy on legpress and then as a second exercise do squats quite light with only 200-225lbs and just do loads of reps, go paralell etc... then 3rd exercise is leg extensions, use drop-sets, high reps. Really kills the legs, makes you sore for a week.
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Guess it depends on what you consider big legs..
ofcourse your body will respond to any sort of progressive load resistance and 315 for sets of 15 and 20 reps will definately give you big legs but, I myself didn't start to see cuts, details, or any sort of substantial size improvements in them or response from them til I started squatting 400 or better for higher reps. I'm starting to get deeper cuts in them from going to the floor instead of parallel on my heaviest sets. Instead of hitting parallel with heavy weight, I'll go mildly heavy to the floor for as long as I can. If it starts to get too easy and I've hit my rep target total for a few weeks straight I'll increase the weight. No need to NOT push it a little more but, I don't think you need to be squatting 600,700, hell even 1000lbs before getting good legs. If you can squat 500 for at least 10 reps, you'll have a nice set of wheels.
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I guess it depends on what you call 'noticeable.' I wouldn't notice a 315 pound squatter, unless she's a girl.
noticeable as in u can tell u workout your legs with weights, 315 for reps, not max.
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Wicked are you talking about one-quarter rep squats done on the smith machine ? I shure as hell hope not.
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Wicked are you talking about one-quarter rep squats done on the smith machine ? I shure as hell hope not.
LOL if that's how you do them, I'd suggest ass to grass myself once you get the form and movement down right but if that works HEY WHY NOT! ;D
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I've been using a pretty straightforward periodized program for most of my body, legs included, where I'll do 4 weeks at 12-15 reps, 4 at 8-12 reps, and 4 at 4-8 reps, and my legs seem to be responding best to the 12-15 range, at least in terms of growth. Not a lot of weight involved as legs are a huge weakness for me, but they get better each workout.
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My legs grow best doin ten sets of ten reps for squats followed by 5 sets of 15-20 on leg press.. . .its tough but my legs respond well to it.
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My legs grow best doin ten sets of ten reps for squats followed by 5 sets of 15-20 on leg press.. . .its tough but my legs respond well to it.
thats sounds painful...
i'll give it a try in a few weeks ;D
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I think squats are key to mass.
however, when I do them, I think about the tremendous valsava manuveur that occurs. I think the pressure back to the heart and up to the brain has to be the greatest when doing squats. Maybe this may lead to a big heart, leaky valves, etc down the road. any thoughts?
Levrone did ok without much squating.
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the only squats that i have been using lately are front squats...i have done 3 movements before getting to themand this week 3 sets of 20 nearly killed me...
i mean 225x20 front squat after everything else? i was in love!!! :)
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There are so many elite bodybuilders that use moderate weights. They are still working hard by the amount of sets, reps, and proper performance of the exercise. How many guys claim they are going to parallel when they are only doing very shallow squats with a ton of weight. These trainers have no idea of how anyone can do these shallow type knee bends yet they will claim such things as, " I just did 12 reps with 405lbs." I like to squat like an Olympic lifter. All the way down to maximum range. It limits what you can lift if you compare it to the cheat method of barely squatting down.
Using 225 for deep reps for sets is tough. What's easy is doing quarter knee bends with 405 while lying to yourself that you are doing half squats to parallel. What passes for a valid squat in power lifting today is a border line half squat.
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There are so many elite bodybuilders that use moderate weights. They are still working hard by the amount of sets, reps, and proper performance of the exercise. How many guys claim they are going to parallel when they are only doing very shallow squats with a ton of weight. These trainers have no idea of how anyone can do these shallow type knee bends yet they will claim such things as, " I just did 12 reps with 405lbs." I like to squat like an Olympic lifter. All the way down to maximum range. It limits what you can lift if you compare it to the cheat method of barely squatting down.
Using 225 for deep reps for sets is tough. What's easy is doing quarter knee bends with 405 while lying to yourself that you are doing half squats to parallel. What passes for a valid squat in power lifting today is a border line half squat.
your post is ok... but the squat IS NOT an olympic lift... hope this helps :)
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I believe OT means the Olympic squat style, which is about half way between a BB'ers squat (back straight..bar high on the back..legs medium/narrow stance) and a Pl'ers squat (bar low on the back...legs/arse wide....half GoodMorning, half semi squat)
Quite a few lifters have made outstanding gains in muscle and strength when doing medium weight squats using GVT (10X10's). If you use 300 for 5 reps when squating, try doing 10X10's with 220 or so. May feel like sissy stuff the first few sets, with 90-120 second between sets, but it progresses to harder reps later. The quads will get bigger and you may gain muscular weight in the upper body. A win win experience. Another exceptional leg program are 20 rep breathing squats. A killer but worth the effort if you want to build all over muscular size and in a relative short period of time. Trouble being, not to many trainee's want to work that hard.
What passes for heavy squating now a days is unbelievable. A 1/8 this and a 1/4 that is not true squating. Unless you are intending to work partial reps in a PR and plan it that way. Not to many guy's, in my view, know what true heavy squating is. Funny thing is is that I see many women lifter who use near perfect style in the squat...interesting and also nice to watch. Good Luck.
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i've always had large quads...and i never once squatted more than 275...and if i did 275 it wasn't for many reps...unless you are some fat powerlifter i don't see the need to be squatting volkswagens...
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exactly, and when you are in your 50's you wont need hip and knee replacements. You can make very good gains with a healthier body using lower weight, strict form and high reps-thats the point of the thread.
This is not true for upper body imo.
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I believe OT means the Olympic squat style, which is about half way between a BB'ers squat (back straight..bar high on the back..legs medium/narrow stance) and a Pl'ers squat (bar low on the back...legs/arse wide....half GoodMorning, half semi squat)
I stand corrected :-\ (it's funny how we have a mod who isn't a mod and a should be mod who isn't a mod on the same board...) :)
Quite a few lifters have made outstanding gains in muscle and strength when doing medium weight squats using GVT (10X10's). If you use 300 for 5 reps when squating, try doing 10X10's with 220 or so. May feel like sissy stuff the first few sets, with 90-120 second between sets, but it progresses to harder reps later. The quads will get bigger and you may gain muscular weight in the upper body. A win win experience. Another exceptional leg program are 20 rep breathing squats. A killer but worth the effort if you want to build all over muscular size and in a relative short period of time. Trouble being, not to many trainee's want to work that hard.
What passes for heavy squating now a days is unbelievable. A 1/8 this and a 1/4 that is not true squating. Unless you are intending to work partial reps in a PR and plan it that way. Not to many guy's, in my view, know what true heavy squating is. Funny thing is is that I see many women lifter who use near perfect style in the squat...interesting and also nice to watch. Good Luck.
i agree that few people squat with good ROM anymore... back when i was playing footbal our leg workout was similar to GVT and the effect on my legs was unreal...
tonight is hamtring day... gonna do some good old GVT!
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your post is ok... but the squat IS NOT an olympic lift... hope this helps :)
An Olympic squat used by Olympic lifters is a medium to narrow stance. High bar placement on the traps. A fairly upright squat stance and all the way to maximum depth.
A power squat is a wide stance. The bar placement is low as you can get it to put leverage in your favor. While many claim it's a squat to parallel, I see most lifts are passed in competition look like a half squat to me. Also the power lifting type squat has been called a hip lock squat. Your putting your body in the best position to move the maximum weight.
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An Olympic squat used by Olympic lifters is a medium to narrow stance. High bar placement on the traps. A fairly upright squat stance and all the way to maximum depth.
A power squat is a wide stance. The bar placement is low as you can get it to put leverage in your favor. While many claim it's a squat to parallel, I see most lifts are passed in competition look like a half squat to me. Also the power lifting type squat has been called a hip lock squat. Your putting your body in the best position to move the maximum weight.
i agree to a certain extent, the reason these huge 1,000-1,200 pound Monolift squats look so shallow is due to the extremely wide foot placement, these clowns set up in that stance and then the Monolift hooks are taken away and it drops the weight on their shoulders so when they begin they are almost already in a quarter squat position, fuccking laughable, makes a mockery of legitimate squatters like Karwoski, Furnas, Kazmaier, Reinhoudt and all the great lifters of the 70's and 80's both PL'ers and OL'ers.
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i agree to a certain extent, the reason these huge 1,000-1,200 pound Monolift squats look so shallow is due to the extremely wide foot placement, these clowns set up in that stance and then the Monolift hooks are taken away and it drops the weight on their shoulders so when they begin they are almost already in a quarter squat position, fuccking laughable, makes a mockery of legitimate squatters like Karwoski, Furnas, Kazmaier, Reinhoudt and all the great lifters of the 70's and 80's both PL'ers and OL'ers.
This is why 600 to the floor is more impressive to me than these pl comps...
my buddy just talked to me the other day...his competition lifts in the squat are bordering 900...but he was so proud to hit 650 for a double to the floor raw which I have more respect for than his 900 to parallel in the suit, briefs, belt, etc.
Anything beyond a belt and wraps if you have bad knees jsut takes all the charm of the squat away.
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completely agree...
oh and btw SF...
tonight to start my Ham workout i did 5 sets of dumbbell deads... 20 reps per set... the last set was with 115lbs and i thought i was going to die
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i can squat 315 for only 3 reps. so using 315 at the moment to develop size is out of the question....and my legs arent that bad..
yea there not good at all no separation nothing sorry man call it the way i see it..
everyone grows differently but same rings true you can get good solid separated legs from 225 squats 20 reps but for thickness you need heavy weight with reps not 405 for 3 reps but 315 for 12 or more.. 405 for reps if you do 405 for 6 sets of 4 then your wasting your time reps reps reps.
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yea there not good at all no separation nothing sorry man call it the way i see it..
everyone grows differently but same rings true you can get good solid separated legs from 225 squats 20 reps but for thickness you need heavy weight with reps not 405 for 3 reps but 315 for 12 or more.. 405 for reps if you do 405 for 6 sets of 4 then your wasting your time reps reps reps.
Many people think that heavy squats make you grow all over.
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Many people think that heavy squats make you grow all over.
My legs have exploded and my overall strength, especially lower body, has blow up in all lifts due to squats and squatting heavy! I have also seen greater response when it comes to size AND cuts because ALL the muscle in your legs grow when you do leg workouts, due to squats than any ohter exercise. Those that say leg press will get it down just like squats will are full of shit! I saw more from squats with 315 than I ever did with leg presses up to as high as 30plates. Squats bring it home and really help you develop overall power just like deads do. I wish I would've started out squatting years ago.
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My legs have exploded and my overall strength, especially lower body, has blow up in all lifts due to squats and squatting heavy! I have also seen greater response when it comes to size AND cuts because ALL the muscle in your legs grow when you do leg workouts, due to squats than any ohter exercise. Those that say leg press will get it down just like squats will are full of shit! I saw more from squats with 315 than I ever did with leg presses up to as high as 30plates. Squats bring it home and really help you develop overall power just like deads do. I wish I would've started out squatting years ago.
I take the easy way out and do leg presses because I am relatively old, have a bad back and have shot knees. That being said a leg press is no way as effective a movement. Not by a long shot!
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I'd also like to say that I feel like you need to be squatting right at or more than double your body weight to start seeing significant changes. It took high reps with 400+ for me to start seeing some good results. So it's all relative. AND GTFO OFF THE SMITH MACHINE IF YOU'RE SQUATTING! Use the cage if you're afraid of not getting it up..that's what it's for.
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I take the easy way out and do leg presses because I am relatively old, have a bad back and have shot knees. That being said a leg press is no way as effective a movement. Not by a long shot!
there are exceptions to every rule and if you can't squat that's one thing... Hacks are even better than leg pressing but if that's what you can do, keep bleeding in the gym. Doesn't matter how you get it done, as long as it gets done when the day is over with my friend. My post was more towards the guys who CAN squat and choose not to. You'll look like more of a hardass hitting 300-500lbs to the floor than loading up 20plates on the leg press trying to fill out your jeans.
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Do you guys wear knee wraps when squatting? Some of you like SF when doing 405 for 12 i can imagine pain in the knees there, altho im a long way of that sort of lifting when i get up to about 400 should i wrap? I can do 390 for a single at the mo ( iknow im a beast!)
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Do you guys wear knee wraps when squatting? Some of you like SF when doing 405 for 12 i can imagine pain in the knees there, altho im a long way of that sort of lifting when i get up to about 400 should i wrap? I can do 390 for a single at the mo ( iknow im a beast!)
knee wraps are no more effective than weight belts in preventing injury...
the best way to protect your knees is to warm up before you squat
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Some of the best legs I ever saw back in the day were on a guy named Jack Kousaris........he`d squat 135-20,185-20,225-20,250-20,185-20 (close stance)............all the way down.
Awesome development.
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Would squatting 315 10 times be more productive than 215 20 times ? Im not really talking about 135 except for warming up, but you probably could benefit from doing 25-30 reps with that if you had back problems.
I haven't read the rest of the posts in this thread yet, but as a general rule, I'd say the most important thing is total TONNAGE. I.e. over the course of the workout, look at how many pounds you have made your muscles lift. If you think in those terms, it might add a different and constructive approach to your lifting. To answer your question in light of this: 315x10 = 3,150 lbs. 215x20 = 4,300. So, even though you're lifting 100 lbs less for your working weight, your muscles actually are forced to lift more total tonnage with this lighter weight. Of course it's best to stretch yourself to the max and go for maximum total tonnage AND highest working weight possible...
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I haven't read the rest of the posts in this thread yet, but as a general rule, I'd say the most important thing is total TONNAGE. I.e. over the course of the workout, look at how many pounds you have made your muscles lift. If you think in those terms, it might add a different and constructive approach to your lifting. To answer your question in light of this: 315x10 = 3,150 lbs. 215x20 = 4,300. So, even though you're lifting 100 lbs less for your working weight, your muscles actually are forced to lift more total tonnage with this lighter weight. Of course it's best to stretch yourself to the max and go for maximum total tonnage AND highest working weight possible...
and if all else fails...you could try this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KkvrVq_0CM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KkvrVq_0CM)
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one day some guys walked into the gym and the great Ken Patera was loading plates on the bar in the squat rack, 3 plates and some change per side, the guys said, "great we're finally gonna get to see Ken squat", Ken put the weight on the back of his shoulders and started banging out strict presses behind the neck with it.
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one day some guys walked into the gym and the great Ken Patera was loading plates on the bar in the squat rack, 3 plates and some change per side, the guys said, "great we're finally gonna get to see Ken squat", Ken put the weight on the back of his shoulders and started banging out strict presses behind the neck with it.
LOL BANDED BEHIND THE NECK PRESSES?!! :o :o
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LOL BANDED BEHIND THE NECK PRESSES?!! :o :o
hahahaha, Ken was a beast, tore a parking meter out of a sidewalk, deadlfted 785 on a York powerlifting bar for 3 reps and shrugged the weight so hard on the last rep that the bar bent.
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hahahaha, Ken was a beast, tore a parking meter out of a sidewalk, deadlfted 785 on a York powerlifting bar for 3 reps and shrugged the weight so hard on the last rep that the bar bent.
I wish we had some dudes like that in any of the local gyms around here... sad to say I'm one of two strong people I've ever met in a gym. :-\
AND I'D PAY MONEY TO WATCH SOMEONE RIP A PARKING METER OUT OF THE SIDEWALK! especially that fucker that got me ticketed down town! my luck I'd look like some tool melting down trying to skull fuck a parking meter instead of making any progress with it! ;D
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I wish we had some dudes like that in any of the local gyms around here... sad to say I'm one of two strong people I've ever met in a gym. :-\
AND I'D PAY MONEY TO WATCH SOMEONE RIP A PARKING METER OUT OF THE SIDEWALK! especially that fucker that got me ticketed down town! my luck I'd look like some tool melting down trying to skull fuck a parking meter instead of making any progress with it! ;D
yeah World's Strongest man competitor Bruce Wilhelm wrote a little book about Ken and said that when him and ken would train together that even the strongest guys would stop what they were doing and watch Ken train.
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yeah World's Strongest man competitor Bruce Wilhelm wrote a little book about Ken and said that when him and ken would train together that even the strongest guys would stop what they were doing and watch Ken train.
not many like that around anymore... most of our big dudes are so geared out that 198lb men can squat over half a ton. :-\
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one day some guys walked into the gym and the great Ken Patera was loading plates on the bar in the squat rack, 3 plates and some change per side, the guys said, "great we're finally gonna get to see Ken squat", Ken put the weight on the back of his shoulders and started banging out strict presses behind the neck with it.
haha, great story.