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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Tre on October 04, 2007, 10:50:33 AM
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Should we stand for this?
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We should give up any principles and rights we have as long as it keeps us safe.
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Should we stand for this?
Why not? The haji scum torture in much worse ways than we do whenever they catch an American or a shia or Sunni. Why not return the favor?
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Definitely not.
Torture is barbaric.
We're not barbarians.
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dont you think that torture is looked down upon in the West. So then if we accepted these methods in our part of the world. Basically the terrorists have succeeded in their plan? Or western governments are actually in favour of this and this gives them grounds to do this type of thing. Not only to terrorists but to anyone.
I disagree with torture.
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I agree with MB and Hedge.
If we act as savages, then we are no better than those we wish to look down upon.
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dont you think that torture is looked down upon in the West. So then if we accepted these methods in our part of the world. Basically the terrorists have succeeded in their plan? Or western governments are actually in favour of this and this gives them grounds to do this type of thing. Not only to terrorists but to anyone.
I disagree with torture.
Nice post, I agree.
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Definitely not.
Torture is barbaric.
We're not barbarians.
you don't have a say, you're not American.
I think in some cases, what must be done, must be done....don't ask don't tell,of a different kind.
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Won't be surprised when our government decides to officially torture American citizens if needed as well.
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It already happens, though not completely outright perpetuated by our government. What do you think happens inside our prisons? How many more tazer incidents do we need to have? How many more people with 20+ bullets inside of them do we need to see?
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It already happens, though not completely outright perpetuated by our government. What do you think happens inside our prisons? How many more tazer incidents do we need to have? How many more people with 20+ bullets inside of them do we need to see?
alot
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Why not be barbaric its called WAR. if information we get from a person tortured saves an american life its worth it. the torture person would be killed anyway might as well get somthing out of it. some torture that we do doesnt even envolve violence. it is psychological.
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I don't living in a war zone, my friend.
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you don't have a say, you're not American.
I think in some cases, what must be done, must be done....don't ask don't tell,of a different kind.
Well I think that gives him a say, since we're torturing citizens of other countries :D
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Its not like this is new...Pershing used to sew up Jihidist nutbags in pig carcases during the Philipine insurrection. At some point we need to get past our political correctness and realize that these people are a major threat.
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Its not like this is new...Pershing used to sew up Jihidist nutbags in pig carcases during the Philipine insurrection. At some point we need to get past our political correctness and realize that these people are a major threat.
Major threat, yea right... sure... if you say so...
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Islamic nutbags are a major threat, what have u missed in the last 30 years says that they're not.
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It's kind of hard to call torture in-humane when we're willing to actually kill the same people with bombs or cut them in half with machine gun or burn them to death with white phosphorus
on the the other hand - it seems most experts believe the torture does not yield good intel anyway so what's the real purpose?
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It's kind of hard to call torture in-humane when we're willing to actually kill the same people with bombs or cut them in half with machine gun or burn them to death with white phosphorus
on the the other hand - it seems most experts believe the torture does not yield good intel anyway so what's the real purpose?
So Neotaints can get a woody. it's the only way they can get off!
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So Neotaints can get a woody. it's the only way they can get off!
I wouldn't doubt it - something about homosexual sadism seems to strike a nerve with a certain segment of the Republican party.
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Ok Jag....I wasn't sure when we decided to begin to torture people...I guess we decided to do it when Bush was elected. It was all his idea to begin to torture people. It had nothing to do with 911 or Islamic terrorists, because they are a Bush invention. U really need to get past the neo con bullshit. they'll be gone in 2 years and we'll still have islamic terrorists killing innocent people, much like they have for years. Much like they have been killing Canadian troops since 2001.
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I don't living in a war zone, my friend.
Thanks to soldiers
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Won't be surprised when our government decides to officially torture American citizens if needed as well.
if needed thats fine. what are you considering an American citizen? someone who comes in over the border and gets his right to sue? we need to tighten up. i think if people out of high school had a mandatory 2 years in the military before what to do with their life it would help the country allot. most country's have this.we also need to crack down on people, they steal cut off a hand and ex-setera. If you want freedom someone has to fight for it, please dont forget that.
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It seems strange that in this day and age people have to be told that "torture is wrong".
When one tortures another that puts you in this select company:
The Nazis
The Mafia
Red China
Soviet Union
What do those have in common? They are our enemies.
Come on, do I have to explain that we are the good guys and that we put the bad guys away... you know--the torturers
There is no honor in those that torture.
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terrorists don't have to do anything to destroy western civilization.
There plan is for us to destroy ourselves. Seems to be working, yes it is psychological ;)
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It seems strange that in this day and age people have to be told that "torture is wrong".
When one tortures another that puts you in this select company:
The Nazis
The Mafia
Red China
Soviet Union
What do those have in common? They are our enemies.
Come on, do I have to explain that we are the good guys and that we put the bad guys away... you know--the torturers
There is no honor in those that torture.
we also have tortured for 100 years we don't do it to Conquer the world we do it to protect the country. it is obvious by this thread why we should keep things a secret. everybody wants to live free but know one wants blood on their hands well I'm here to tell you it has to happen.
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we also have tortured for 100 years we don't do it to Conquer the world we do it to protect the country. it is obvious by this thread why we should keep things a secret. everybody wants to live free but know one wants blood on their hands well I'm here to tell you it has to happen.
Sure there's been torture. It's not the US's policy though. And it is against our laws so if it were brought to light, legal remedies would kick in. At least until President Bush came along.
I can look at the US Constitution and point out the 8th amendment which prohibits cruel and unusual punishment...kind of like torture.
Torture belongs to our enemies, criminals and monsters.
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"It's not ok."
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Sure there's been torture. It's not the US's policy though. And it is against our laws so if it were brought to light, legal remedies would kick in. At least until President Bush came along.
I can look at the US Constitution and point out the 8th amendment which prohibits cruel and unusual punishment...kind of like torture.
Torture belongs to our enemies, criminals and monsters.
On U.S. soil.
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that is also why government agency's hire outside contractor so they can get the job done.
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More to the point..Decker u have pointed out time and again about American mistakes and missteps throughout our history. In doing so u have brought to light our history since after WW2. We really aren' t the good guys..we're Americans, basically ensuring whats good for America. We're generally moral and ethical...but we ALWAYS do whats in our best interest. And by we...Dems and Repubs alike. Living in a vacuum, maybe its not always the best choice, maybe not ethical, nor follows our own laws...but we seem to try and do what we want to ensure our brand of right and wrong and more importantly our survival. We did horrible things to our own indigenous people...we did some pretty crazy stuff in the Philippines, we invaded Mexico to get land (not sure that's working out :P) we have gone into battle and not taken prisoners...mostly any Island invasion during the Pacific campaign. We knocked over plenty of governments in Central and South America....we've delt with plenty of crappy people. When did we become the good guy...hell we nuked people. Still we're better then most...marginally....but better.
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Ok Jag....I wasn't sure when we decided to begin to torture people...I guess we decided to do it when Bush was elected. It was all his idea to begin to torture people. It had nothing to do with 911 or Islamic terrorists, because they are a Bush invention. U really need to get past the neo con bullshit. they'll be gone in 2 years and we'll still have islamic terrorists killing innocent people, much like they have for years. Much like they have been killing Canadian troops since 2001.
Actually in the interest of accuracy, it was American "allies" killing Canadian troops since 2001.
Afghan rebels didn't start that til 2002 - 2003 sometime. Prior to that it was all Yankee firepower killing our troops.
Buy hey, I know it's not a case of discrmination, you guys have been known to kill a few of your own over there too.
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It seems strange that in this day and age people have to be told that "torture is wrong".
When one tortures another that puts you in this select company:
The Nazis
The Mafia
Red China
Soviet Union
What do those have in common? They are our enemies.
Come on, do I have to explain that we are the good guys and that we put the bad guys away... you know--the torturers
There is no honor in those that torture.
What's worse Decker, is these people who advocate torture don't even realize that torture's worst effects are visited upon the torturers themselves. They think "Our guys are really fvcking with the enemy when we torture them", when in reality the real victims of torture are the torturers themselves. Anybody who has ever seen the soulless empty shells of what once were human beings could never condone such an abominable condemnation, let alone support such an expedient one-way ticket to hell for their countrymen in arms.
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More to the point..Decker u have pointed out time and again about American mistakes and missteps throughout our history. In doing so u have brought to light our history since after WW2. We really aren' t the good guys..we're Americans, basically ensuring whats good for America. We're generally moral and ethical...but we ALWAYS do whats in our best interest. And by we...Dems and Repubs alike. Living in a vacuum, maybe its not always the best choice, maybe not ethical, nor follows our own laws...but we seem to try and do what we want to ensure our brand of right and wrong and more importantly our survival. We did horrible things to our own indigenous people...we did some pretty crazy stuff in the Philippines, we invaded Mexico to get land (not sure that's working out :P) we have gone into battle and not taken prisoners...mostly any Island invasion during the Pacific campaign. We knocked over plenty of governments in Central and South America....we've delt with plenty of crappy people. When did we become the good guy...hell we nuked people. Still we're better then most...marginally....but better.
You’re very right, in recent history, the CIAs list of crimes is very big and very heinous. We have done bad things. The country has a track record a mile long of crimes against humanity…Indians, slavery, the Irish….(mel brooks). That’s what we are. But we still fight the good fight as reflected in the ideals in our Constitution.
Otherwise we could just scrap the constitution and play it by ear where the only metric we use for moral behavior is pure license to achieve whatever the US wants to achieve for whatever purpose it sees fit. Murder, rape and torture are just tools of the trade. That was the policy of the Japanese, Nazis, Soviets, South American death squads and so on. It’s one thing for that stuff to happen as incidental and it’s another thing to have it happen as a matter of State policy. We are not winning the hearts and minds, that’s for sure.
We are the world power. We lead with power and our example is learned. Why do the Arabs hate the US? Like you’ve said, we’ve toppled their governments and made their lives hell. We’ve done that all over the world. Now we are experiencing the blowback with these potshot terrorist attacks.
Just b/c the US has done terrible things in the past does not mean it has to keep doing those awful things and it really doesn’t mean that we have to embrace the dark side just b/c it existed in the past.
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What's worse Decker, is these people who advocate torture don't even realize that torture's worst effects are visited upon the torturers themselves. They think "Our guys are really fvcking with the enemy when we torture them", when in reality the real victims of torture are the torturers themselves. Anybody who has ever seen the soulless empty shells of what once were human beings could never condone such an abominable condemnation, let alone support such an expedient one-way ticket to hell for their countrymen in arms.
On one hand, anyone condoning or practicing torture has already surrendered his/her humanity and dignity so I don't think he/she would be concerned with any further moral degradation. On the other hand, it is the job of those people not seduced by torture's qualities of control, revenge, and petty animalistic power to be a constant reminder.
The psychology of presenting torture as the only viable option for interrogators finds a lot of support among the viewers of '24'. They know torture works b/c they saw Keifer Sutherland torture Peter Weller with great results and he was able to save the US with that information before the hour show was over.
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Jag I served with ur troops....friendly fire happens....please don't make light of it. Decker..I guess my point is this, while we have done horrible things, we're no different then the rest of the world or atleast the West, when it comes to doing things that are in our best interest. We do try and be the good guy, generally, but at times, things like torture, serve our best interest. I'm not an advocate of doing it as a generally policy, but such as in "24" if its going to serve a purpose, then we do what we have to.
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HH6, just wanted to tell you I appreciate you, bro. I love how you take things for what they are and not an idealistic viewpoint, which is a trait I wish I was able to do more readily. I strongly believe seeing what you see versus reading or hearing about the military items we debate gives you the most credibility in this area. Thanks, man.
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... but at times, things like torture, serve our best interest. I'm not an advocate of doing it as a generally policy, but such as in "24" if its going to serve a purpose, then we do what we have to.
And on that, we part company. We do what it takes to elicit information from terrorists or alleged terrorists. Now we get into the efficacy of torture as an interrogation method.
“Torture is based on outmoded behaviorist ideas. Threats may change overt behavior, but it is naïve to assume that threats make a person tell the truth.”
"Torture does not yield reliable information and is actually counterproductive in intelligence interrogations, which aim to produce the maximum amount of accurate information in the minimum amount of time. In fact, popular assumptions that torture works conflict with the most effective methodologies of interrogation, as well as with fundamental tenets of psychology." http://www.psysr.org/tortureseminar.htm
So if torture is an unreliable, indeed ineffective, way of eliciting information from detainees, why use it at all?
What about torturing children or those innocent of any charges? How about torturing a child in front of its mother to make the woman talk?
There are many permutations.
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Rmember there is torture that is not physical also remember the use of drugs along with torture.There are many diffrent fasits of torture. a big part of it is to let the non-captured know what could happen to them.
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HH6, just wanted to tell you I appreciate you, bro. I love how you take things for what they are and not an idealistic viewpoint, which is a trait I wish I was able to do more readily. I strongly believe seeing what you see versus reading or hearing about the military items we debate gives you the most credibility in this area. Thanks, man.
So you would be averse to a Christian idealistic viewpoint re torture in favor of a more muscular approach to dealing with detainees? I don't believe Christ beseeched his followers to torture his enemies. Love your enemies.
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Rmember there is torture that is not physical also remember the use of drugs along with torture.There are many diffrent fasits of torture. a big part of it is to let the non-captured know what could happen to them.
You mean like tricking a parent detainee into thinking his/her child is being raped to death in an adjacent room?
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Actually....I'm more for the enlightened KGB approach to torture. They use drugs, sensory deprivation etc to get info. I think this works better. Unless a nuke is about to go off and a power drill is ur only resource (deep breaths Decker :P) then I prefer mind fucking the subject, using drugs etc.
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I'd also like to take this opportunity to tell u all that I have, again switched jobs. I'll be traveling alot around the world apparently, helping units prepare for deployment etc. I guess its good frequent flyer and free hotel room stuff. If this current trip is any indication...I'll be wasting ur tax dollars in grand style. I've done nothing for the last 3 weeks...nothing. I've been going to the gym and thats it. Anyway I'll be reporting from Korea, Japan and Germany in the coming months. And hopefully not Iran.
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Jag I served with ur troops....friendly fire happens....please don't make light of it.
Not making light of it at all. Merely correcting your inaccurate statement, and pointing out your omission of facts.
Decker..I guess my point is this, while we have done horrible things, we're no different then the rest of the world or atleast the West, when it comes to doing things that are in our best interest.
I disagree. The USA is different. While everyone endeavors to do what is in their own interests, there are those who will not go to "any" lengths to do so, ...or do so without consideration of the negative impact their decisions have both on their own lives, as well as the lives of others. The USA appears especially myopic in this regard.
We do try and be the good guy, generally, but at times, things like torture, serve our best interest. I'm not an advocate of doing it as a generally policy, but such as in "24" if its going to serve a purpose, then we do what we have to.
What purpose does it serve? I'm not asking what purpose the propaganda of 24 serves. We all know that.
I've had the pleasure of both knowing and working with Keifer Sutherland, his father Donald, his mother Shirley Douglas, and his twin sister Rachel. And while I respect the accomplishments of him and his family and the legacy they have left for this country (his grandfather Tommy Douglas), I do not see what purpose other than propaganda, his portrayal of torture on "24" serves.
"Only when the power of love replaces the love of power will we see peace on this planet." --Jimi Hendrix
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I'd also like to take this opportunity to tell u all that I have, again switched jobs. I'll be traveling alot around the world apparently, helping units prepare for deployment etc. I guess its good frequent flyer and free hotel room stuff. If this current trip is any indication...I'll be wasting ur tax dollars in grand style. I've done nothing for the last 3 weeks...nothing. I've been going to the gym and thats it. Anyway I'll be reporting from Korea, Japan and Germany in the coming months. And hopefully not Iran.
Why "Hopefully not Iran"? Why not Iran? Surely you would want to be there since you think it's so swell?
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Um...one war at a time..never said it was swell. I think its a bad idea based on the fact that we're already tied up in two other places.
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Actually....I'm more for the enlightened KGB approach to torture. They use drugs, sensory deprivation etc to get info. I think this works better. Unless a nuke is about to go off and a power drill is ur only resource (deep breaths Decker :P) then I prefer mind fucking the subject, using drugs etc.
Maybe that works...it sure does on television. But this is real life.
If a nuclear bomb is about to go off
If we have a terrorist with accurate information
If the information he communicates is accurate and not some white rabbit through the looking glass admixture of information and drug fantasy
Then your scenario might work.
That's a lot of 'ifs' for losing your soul to torture.
As I've shown before, the experts in psychology have determined that torture is counter-productive yet you still hold on to the dream that torture is a viable option for extracting information.
Why are the experts in human behavior wrong and you are right?
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Maybe that works...it sure does on television. But this is real life.
If a nuclear bomb is about to go off
If we have a terrorist with accurate information
If the information he communicates is accurate and not some white rabbit through the looking glass admixture of information and drug fantasy
Then your scenario might work.
That's a lot of 'ifs' for losing your soul to torture.
As I've shown before, the experts in psychology have determined that torture is counter-productive yet you still hold on to the dream that torture is a viable option for extracting information.
Why are the experts in human behavior wrong and you are right?
Physical torture to everyday soldiers for quick information does work. not talking spies or sf but most grunts talk easily and quickly just keep them separate and confused.
good luck headhunter
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So you would be averse to a Christian idealistic viewpoint re torture in favor of a more muscular approach to dealing with detainees? I don't believe Christ beseeched his followers to torture his enemies. Love your enemies.
Sometimes you have to kick the crap out of your enemies.
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Sometimes you have to kick the crap out of your enemies.
How very ...ummm ...Christian of you. :-\
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How very ...ummm ...Christian of you. :-\
::) Here is one example: Matthew 21:12.
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::) Here is one example: Matthew 21:12.
You're going to have to quote it, ...cause I ain't looking it up.
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You're going to have to quote it, ...cause I ain't looking it up.
You're going to have to look it up yourself . . . cause I ain't quoting it.
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You're going to have to look it up yourself . . . cause I ain't quoting it.
You presume I give a crap what you have to say, ...I don't. I won't be looking it up
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You presume I give a crap what you have to say, ...I don't. I won't be looking it up
lol. I'm crushed. :) lol . . .
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You presume I give a crap what you have to say, ...I don't. I won't be looking it up
seperate war from God.
remember God will forgive.