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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Nordic Superman on October 05, 2007, 06:08:10 AM

Title: Necessary Evils
Post by: Nordic Superman on October 05, 2007, 06:08:10 AM
This is somewhat on the topic 240 was on when he said he was back to the republican side of the spectra. That, it is certain non-attractive events such as war and the motivation for oil which keeps you accustomed to your lovely western lifestyle. Hell, from what I've seen of Germany, UK/US you don't have to work to live like a king.

My real question is, what if the drug trade (might be facilitated by government agencies), the wars, maybe even the implications of the US government committing 9/11 (even tho I personally don't think they had direct involvement) were all an elaborate political ecosystem that kept life as we know it chugging along as it does.

I think this does infact all happen to some degree.

If I was was to orchestrate a government I too would probably undertake such measure if I saw it necessary. Of course my personality sways towards "a good few must die for many".

So all you hippies and far lefties, do you think western society would still operate efficiently if we stopped eating meat and everything was true and good?
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: 240 is Back on October 05, 2007, 06:57:38 AM
the minute i realized i wouldn't give up my standard of life in order to make things right, i realized i was being a hypocrite.  I could no longer hate on the war... cause without the oil, well, things wouldn't be as good here.  So what can you do?  SHit is gonna happen whether you complain about it or not.  So you can live the spoils and enjoy it, or spend life complaining about the reasons you have such a great life.  I think most of the repub candidates are scum, sure.  But I cannot call for an end to the war. 
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 05, 2007, 07:02:23 AM
No, you can't/shouldn't and don't have to fight evil with evil.  You just become the bad guy, then what?  The majority of people in the world are good by nature.  Yes we all have a dark side, but when good is attacked, people's good sides almost always jump to aid/side with good--as long as we all still eat meat :D
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Nordic Superman on October 05, 2007, 07:12:22 AM
No, you can't/shouldn't and don't have to fight evil with evil.

Prove to me, with evidence, that any government has been a success with being truly "good".

I think it's an impossibility.

Even the nature of democracy dictates that their must be an underdog (third world labour) for the rest the be well off.

Any evidence democracy survives if all nations were equally economically powerful?
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 05, 2007, 07:24:10 AM
Prove to me, with evidence, that any government has been a success with being truly "good".

I think it's an impossibility.

Even the nature of democracy dictates that their must be an underdog (third world labour) for the rest the be well off.

Any evidence democracy survives if all nations were equally economically powerful?
At times, we have!!!  Nothing is or can be pure good, everything has its dark side so there is probably no instance in any country's history where you can illustrate 100% purity... The problem arises when you've crossed over entirely to the dark side by making evil deeds policy.
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 05, 2007, 07:30:19 AM
the minute i realized i wouldn't give up my standard of life in order to make things right, i realized i was being a hypocrite.  I could no longer hate on the war... cause without the oil, well, things wouldn't be as good here.  So what can you do?  SHit is gonna happen whether you complain about it or not.  So you can live the spoils and enjoy it, or spend life complaining about the reasons you have such a great life.  I think most of the repub candidates are scum, sure.  But I cannot call for an end to the war. 

You falsely limit the possibilities.  No oil does not HAVE to mean jack shit.  Oh I'm sure that's exactly what they would want you to believe and it seems you do.  Launching the country on a path toward alternative real-power energy would be akin to a moon race for this century.  Industy would benefit in such a race, not lose out and you know, what ever the solution, they'd find a way to charge the masses for it, so come on... Instead of trillions on war, where would trillions get us racing for new energy solutions.  The answer is there bubba and it doesn't make you a hypocrite for demanding it.
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: 24KT on October 05, 2007, 07:33:06 AM
You falsely limit the possibilities.  No oil does not HAVE to mean jack shit.  Oh I'm sure that's exactly what they would want you to believe and it seems you do.  Launching the country on a path toward alternative real-power energy would be akin to a moon race for this century.  Industy would benefit in such a race, not lose out and you know, what ever the solution, they'd find a way to charge the masses for it, so come on... Instead of trillions on war, where would trillions get us racing for new energy solutions.  The answer is there bubba and it doesn't make you a hypocrite for demanding it.

It would if you screamed SPAM everytime someone presented it to you.   8)
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: militarymuscle69 on October 05, 2007, 07:35:57 AM
Trillions wouldn't even fund the paper to draw up the new energy idea.
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Nordic Superman on October 05, 2007, 07:39:55 AM
At times, we have!!!  Nothing is or can be pure good, everything has its dark side so there is probably no instance in any country's history where you can illustrate 100% purity... The problem arises when you've crossed over entirely to the dark side by making evil deeds policy.

No, the times things appear good, countries are infact living off past deads, wars etc.

Living off the debt of past wars etc.
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 05, 2007, 07:40:23 AM
Trillions wouldn't even fund the paper to draw up the new energy idea.
::) If you say so
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 05, 2007, 07:44:29 AM
It would if you screamed SPAM everytime someone presented it to you.   8)
That's just fucking ignorant... Going plop plop fiz fiz in your gas tank is NOT "alternative energy"  and no, you may not take this as a go to pimp your pills.  It will get split out and moved or deleted. 
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: 24KT on October 05, 2007, 07:50:01 AM
That's just fucking ignorant... Going plop plop fiz fiz in your gas tank is NOT "alternative energy"  and no, you may not take this as a go to pimp your pills.  It will get split out and moved or deleted. 

No, ...but your comment is.   :(

I take it you haven't read the Orlando sentinal?
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Decker on October 05, 2007, 07:53:49 AM
Let's look at the energy situation.

Oil/fossil fuels will run out.  It is a non-renewable finite source of energy.

At some point, an alternative fuel source will have to be addressed.  Today's Conservatives seem to want to ride the oil gravy train to its conclusion without serious efforts to find alternative fuels.  That's just plain stupid.
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: militarymuscle69 on October 05, 2007, 07:56:31 AM
::) If you say so

I mean serious, you don't realize what it would cost to not only find an alternative source, but to transfer everything that currently runs on petro to this new fuel...it isn't worth it
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: militarymuscle69 on October 05, 2007, 07:57:59 AM
Let's look at the energy situation.

Oil/fossil fuels will run out.  It is a non-renewable finite source of energy.

At some point, an alternative fuel source will have to be addressed.  Today's Conservatives seem to want to ride the oil gravy train to its conclusion without serious efforts to find alternative fuels.  That's just plain stupid.


Stupid? at least conservatives have a plan. What is your plan oh smart one

How fo you know fossil fuels will run out? when will they run out?
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 05, 2007, 07:59:13 AM
No, ...but your comment is.   :(

I take it you haven't read the Orlando sentinal?

No and don't post it.  It's not alternative energy...  If I come out with a fuel injection system that gets 200 mpg it still uses gas and does not constitute an alternate to gas now does it!  It just makes it so I use less, it's not alternate energy.  Hydrogen is an alternate to gas.  Plop Plop Fizz Fizz is not.
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Decker on October 05, 2007, 08:05:56 AM
Stupid? at least conservatives have a plan. What is your plan oh smart one

How fo you know fossil fuels will run out? when will they run out?
Burning through all available oil with no alternative plan is not a plan at all but foolish consumption.

My plan is make alternative energy R&D the new national goal--like the space race of the '60s. 

Granted that would require a leader with foresight, intelligence and resolve, so we'd have to wait until Bush was out of office.
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 05, 2007, 08:12:23 AM
Burning through all available oil with no alternative plan is not a plan at all but foolish consumption.

My plan is make alternative energy R&D the new national goal--like the space race of the '60s. 

Granted that would require a leader with foresight, intelligence and resolve, so we'd have to wait until Bush was out of office.
Oh SNAP :D
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: militarymuscle69 on October 05, 2007, 09:54:57 AM
Burning through all available oil with no alternative plan is not a plan at all but foolish consumption.

My plan is make alternative energy R&D the new national goal--like the space race of the '60s. 

Granted that would require a leader with foresight, intelligence and resolve, so we'd have to wait until Bush was out of office.

right, so name me one Dem that has a chance of being president that has a viable option....
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Decker on October 05, 2007, 10:22:31 AM
right, so name me one Dem that has a chance of being president that has a viable option....
Why?  You asked for my plan. 

I just know that under Bush we will continue his intellectually and morally bankrupt energy policies to the detriment of our country.
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Nordic Superman on October 05, 2007, 10:30:54 AM
Talk about thread hi jacking.

You pathetic excuses for humans need to go to etiquette lessons and get some class!
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Decker on October 05, 2007, 10:34:28 AM
Talk about thread hi jacking.

You pathetic excuses for humans need to go to etiquette lessons and get some class!
Your question makes no sense:

"So all you hippies and far lefties, do you think western society would still operate efficiently if we stopped eating meat and everything was true and good?"

I would answer it if I knew what you were talking about.

I'll try though....if everything were true and good then society would operate efficiently.

Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Decker on October 05, 2007, 10:38:56 AM
Sorry, I see that this is your real question:

My real question is, what if the drug trade (might be facilitated by government agencies), the wars, maybe even the implications of the US government committing 9/11 (even tho I personally don't think they had direct involvement) were all an elaborate political ecosystem that kept life as we know it chugging along as it does.

...

Do the ends justify the means?  Maybe.
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: 240 is Back on October 05, 2007, 11:17:45 AM
Would anyone here live a life of homelessless if it meant crating peace on earth?

Would you give your left leg so that people you'll never meet will stop killing other people you'll never meet?

I wouldn't I doubt many here would.  It's easy to take moral high road and talk about what we should do.  But reality is, nearly all world govts operate on a utilitarian platform - most good for most people. 

If they kill the drug thing, then we have a recession.
If they end the war in Iraq, we lose oil reserves.

I'd rather live well and let them keep killing each other - as they've been doing since beginning of time.  It's morally corrupt, and I admit it.  I can't shit on them for it.  Cause like the other 6B people on earth, I"m a selfish prick  :D
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 05, 2007, 11:26:24 AM
Would anyone here live a life of homelessless if it meant crating peace on earth?

Would you give your left leg so that people you'll never meet will stop killing other people you'll never meet?

I wouldn't I doubt many here would.  It's easy to take moral high road and talk about what we should do.  But reality is, nearly all world govts operate on a utilitarian platform - most good for most people. 

If they kill the drug thing, then we have a recession.
If they end the war in Iraq, we lose oil reserves.

I'd rather live well and let them keep killing each other - as they've been doing since beginning of time.  It's morally corrupt, and I admit it.  I can't shit on them for it.  Cause like the other 6B people on earth, I"m a selfish prick  :D
Yes, I would give my life for a true world peace, a world in harmony.  That's a fiction, perfection cannot be attained but it can be reached for.  But if a magic wand could be waived and the world made safe for all, equal for all, I would take that trade.  I would live poor, lose a leg, lose my life.  It would not only be for those that I don't know, but obviously for those who I do know, my family and the generations to follow, my life would be a small thing for that trade.
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: 240 is Back on October 05, 2007, 11:28:14 AM
Yes, I would give my life for a true world peace, a world in harmony.  That's a fiction, perfection cannot be attained but it can be reached for.  But if a magic wand could be waived and the world made safe for all, equal for all, I would take that trade.  I would live poor, lose a leg, lose my life.  It would not only be for those that I don't know, but obviously for those who I do know, my family and the generations to follow, my life would be a small thing for that trade.

fair enough, and very noble.

would you give your life so that TWO people on the opposite side of the earth wouldn't be killed by unnecessary violence?
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 05, 2007, 11:29:16 AM
240, I think you are lost.  Not trying to insult you honest, but I really think you need to do some thinking.
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 05, 2007, 11:29:45 AM
fair enough, and very noble.

would you give your life so that TWO people on the opposite side of the earth wouldn't be killed by unnecessary violence?
no
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: 240 is Back on October 05, 2007, 11:31:34 AM
no

okay.  Then your number is somewhere between 3, and 6 billion, people you'd give your life to protect.

I guess I'm just saying we all have moral limitations.  We're all willing to sell out a "little" in order to keep what we have. 

WOuld anyone here choose a recession, over stopping the drug trade?  I wouldn't.  I don't use drugs, and I try to avoid crack neighborhoods.  But I sure as hell would see and feel a recession.  So I would rather have the drugs - and a good economy - than no drugs and another great depression.  Which would you prefer?
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 05, 2007, 11:32:31 AM
I would risk my life to save two people, but that's just because I'm so cocky that I wouldn't think I would be in danger :D
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 05, 2007, 11:33:29 AM
okay.  Then your number is somewhere between 3, and 6 billion, people you'd give your life to protect.

I guess I'm just saying we all have moral limitations.  We're all willing to sell out a "little" in order to keep what we have. 

WOuld anyone here choose a recession, over stopping the drug trade?  I wouldn't.  I don't use drugs, and I try to avoid crack neighborhoods.  But I sure as hell would see and feel a recession.  So I would rather have the drugs - and a good economy - than no drugs and another great depression.  Which would you prefer?
You changed the senerio bigtime :D
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 05, 2007, 11:39:49 AM
You should also stop being so black and white 240. It's way more complex.  Because part of an economy is drug based, does not mean that the economy could not be healthy without drug money.  That's absurd when you stop to think about it.  Play it out, the money moves around, not being spent on drugs, it's going to be spent elsewere.  Other industries would fill the void, it is nearly impossible that wouldn't be the case.
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Decker on October 05, 2007, 11:45:46 AM
Would anyone here live a life of homelessless if it meant crating peace on earth?

Would you give your left leg so that people you'll never meet will stop killing other people you'll never meet?

I wouldn't I doubt many here would.  ..... 
I suggest you look to veterans of WWII if they minded giving up their lives to secure our way of living.  I suppose you could go to a homeless Viet Nam vet and ask him if his sacrifice was worth it.

Point is, thousands of average joes have given their all to make this world a better place and you come along smug with the understanding that our country sometimes does barbaric things which coincidentally benefits the country in some manner and you are content with your hypocrisy.

It doesn't have to be this way and passive acceptance of the situation is feckless surrender.
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 05, 2007, 11:52:41 AM
240 needs saved from the dark side :D  Come back over 240, it's not to late for you!!!
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: 240 is Back on October 05, 2007, 12:35:25 PM
240 needs saved from the dark side :D  Come back over 240, it's not to late for you!!!

lol

I'm not saying you're wrong on anything.  we all know the idiots here refuse to argue the evidence of 911, war for oil, etc because its so overwhelming.

i just see the warring as inevitable, as part of out national cycle.  We warred under reagen and Bush1 (and strongarmed resources).  We healed under Clinton (got economy fixed).  We warred under Bush 2 (got oil from 2-3 countries under our thumb and set up new bases).  Next, possibly under Clinton2, we'll heal again.   We'll fix severed relationships.  Back off the mid east, just a lil bit.  Stop doing things like starting wars because we can.

I'm a global realist.  The neotaints are liars and scumbags.  The libs are unrealistic about the fact that wars do exist, and if it wasnt's us doing it, then another country would be. 
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: militarymuscle69 on October 05, 2007, 01:07:39 PM
Yes, I would give my life for a true world peace, a world in harmony.  That's a fiction, perfection cannot be attained but it can be reached for.  But if a magic wand could be waived and the world made safe for all, equal for all, I would take that trade.  I would live poor, lose a leg, lose my life.  It would not only be for those that I don't know, but obviously for those who I do know, my family and the generations to follow, my life would be a small thing for that trade.

You should run for Miss America
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Eyeball Chambers on October 05, 2007, 05:45:44 PM
Cool thread, nice posts Berserker!
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 05, 2007, 07:26:57 PM
Cool thread, nice posts Berserker!
Must have been :D  I got MM69 horney ;D
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Nordic Superman on October 06, 2007, 01:55:01 AM
You should also stop being so black and white 240. It's way more complex.  Because part of an economy is drug based, does not mean that the economy could not be healthy without drug money.  That's absurd when you stop to think about it.  Play it out, the money moves around, not being spent on drugs, it's going to be spent elsewere.  Other industries would fill the void, it is nearly impossible that wouldn't be the case.

But you have NO evidence in the history of goverments!

I asked you simple questions earlier to see if you thought a government could run with being 100% true and good. You gave a canned answer of basically "yes I believe it's possible".

It might be poetic to say such things, but in reality there is no template for it and certainly no evidence for it.
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 06, 2007, 02:34:34 AM
But you have NO evidence in the history of goverments!

I asked you simple questions earlier to see if you thought a government could run with being 100% true and good. You gave a canned answer of basically "yes I believe it's possible".

It might be poetic to say such things, but in reality there is no template for it and certainly no evidence for it.
actually I did answer you, I don't know what your extra beef is about???  First, I never claimed or have claimed instance of a perfect nation, I simply do not believe it's possible.  It's real simple, there never has been or ever will be pure benevolence.  There is evil, there is dark and there is nothing you can to do COMPLETELY eliminate it.  We are not perfect creatures and even the best of us will commit evil deeds sometimes not even being aware of the consequences of our actions, same on the national level.  Perfect just can't happen, but what can happen and what has happened at rare times is that people/nations have indeed reached high and obtained levels of good not known before.  All I am saying is just because you cannot attain 100% of a good goal does not mean you should not reach for it or even greater.  To just give in and say, aw hell, it's the nature of the beast is what will be man's downfall.
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Nordic Superman on October 06, 2007, 05:29:33 AM
Well 100% was possibly a mistake on my part.

I did ask for governments being prosperous without acts of deceit etc, which I can't find any.

I assume your argument is that it's possible, mine is that it is not.
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 06, 2007, 05:44:49 AM
Well 100% was possibly a mistake on my part.

I did ask for governments being prosperous without acts of deceit etc, which I can't find any.

I assume your argument is that it's possible, mine is that it is not.
haha, well I got you then because there are countless single acts by governments that end in good :D  There are also countless acts of evil done in the national interest that could have been attained through more benevolent means.  In the end, I do not believe a nation must be decitful to prosper.  That notion is disgusting, evil and just plain stupid especially when it's the first avenue pursued by a government which is to often the case.  Oh and why the hell would you say you assume my argument is that it's possible.  That indicates you have not read my posts in this thread because I have said at least twice that it is not purely possible but rather is should be the goal--I believe more often that it is not the goal which is wrong.
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Nordic Superman on October 06, 2007, 06:08:00 AM
There are also countless acts of evil done in the national interest that could have been attained through more benevolent means.

How is it possible how you know what would be the outcome of events in the future?

You're a fucking time travelling Jew aren't yah?

Tell me, do the muslims conquer Europe, and do I rise to erradicate them and become the ruler of the known universe.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 06, 2007, 06:16:14 AM
How is it possible how you know what would be the outcome of events in the future?

You're a fucking time travelling Jew aren't yah?

Tell me, do the muslims conquer Europe, and do I rise to erradicate them and become the ruler of the known universe.

Thanks!
I know... I have a privately published copy of the future  ;)  In the future, there is to be no muslims, if that makes your day :-\
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Nordic Superman on October 06, 2007, 06:23:18 AM
Only makes my day if I'm the reason there are no muzzies! ;D
Title: Re: Necessary Evils
Post by: Hugo Chavez on October 06, 2007, 06:29:02 AM
Only makes my day if I'm the reason there are no muzzies! ;D
Sorry, in fact you'll be gone too.  If you're lucky, the best you'll get out of things to come is your offspring will go on to become an eloi--if that's what you would consider a good thing :-\