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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: columbusdude82 on October 07, 2007, 08:58:17 AM
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So who are the witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus? And just what did they see? Let's look at scripture.
First, the synoptic Gospels (Mark, Matthew, and Luke: supposedly the latter two copied from Mark so at least they should have gotten their stories straight.)
Mark:
16:1And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, that they might come and anoint him. 16:2And very early on the first day of the week, they come to the tomb when the sun was risen. 16:3And they were saying among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the tomb? 16:4and looking up, they see that the stone is rolled back: for it was exceeding great. 16:5And entering into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, arrayed in a white robe; and they were amazed. 16:6And he saith unto them, Be not amazed: ye seek Jesus, the Nazarene, who hath been crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold, the place where they laid him! 16:7But go, tell his disciples and Peter, He goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
Matthew:
28:1Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 28:2And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled away the stone, and sat upon it. 28:3His appearance was as lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
Luke:
23:55And the women, who had come with him out of Galilee, followed after, and beheld the tomb, and how his body was laid. 23:56And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments. And on the sabbath they rested according to the commandment.
24:1But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came unto the tomb, bringing the spices which they had prepared. 24:2And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb. 24:3And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. 24:4And it came to pass, while they were perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel: 24:5and as they were affrighted and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? 24:6He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, 24:7saying that the Son of man must be delivered up into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. 24:8And they remembered his words, 24:9and returned from the tomb, and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest. 24:10Now they were Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James: and the other women with them told these things unto the apostles.
So who are the women who found the empty tomb: was it Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome? Was it Mary Magdalene and the other Mary? Or was it Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and the other women?
And did they see a young man sitting on the right side of the tomb? Or an angel of the Lord who had descended from heaven, and came and rolled away the stone, and sat upon it? Or was it two men stood by them in dazzling apparel?
Let's turn to the fourth Gospel, John, the Gospel of Christian theology par excellence.
20:1Now on the first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, while it was yet dark, unto the tomb, and seeth the stone taken away from the tomb. 20:2She runneth therefore, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we know not where they have laid him. 20:3Peter therefore went forth, and the other disciple, and they went toward the tomb. 20:4And they ran both together: and the other disciple outran Peter, and came first to the tomb; 20:5and stooping and looking in, he seeth the linen cloths lying; yet entered he not in. 20:6Simon Peter therefore also cometh, following him, and entered into the tomb; and he beholdeth the linen cloths lying, 20:7and the napkin, that was upon his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but rolled up in a place by itself. 20:8Then entered in therefore the other disciple also, who came first to the tomb, and he saw, and believed. 20:9For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise from the dead. 20:10So the disciples went away again unto their own home. 20:11But Mary was standing without at the tomb weeping: so, as she wept, she stooped and looked into the tomb; 20:12and she beholdeth two angels in white sitting, one at the head, and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
So it was Mary Magdalene who discovered the open tomb, went to fetch Peter and the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and they found the tomb empty, the Mary Magdalene saw two angels in white? Who were sitting down? (as opposed to Luke's two standing men in dazzling apparel).
WHAT GIVES???
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They never have good answers to this one. If they were to concede that the Gospels are fictional literature then much would make sense.
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They never have good answers to this one. If they were to concede that the Gospels are fictional literature then much would make sense.
The gospels are not fictional and only if you would concede that they weren't then much would make sense. Another stupid post with contribution to your argument
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The gospels are not fictional and only if you would concede that they weren't then much would make sense. Another stupid post with contribution to your argument
Since the 4 gospels contradict each other on these points, then no two can be correct. It follows that at most one of the gospels has the correct account of the resurrection. Which is it?
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Since the 4 gospels contradict each other on these points, then no two can be correct. It follows that at most one of the gospels has the correct account of the resurrection. Which is it?
Mark is the earliest and the others with the possible exception of John just copied his and embellished it, adding on details. That's why Luke's and Matthew's descriptions of this passage have more magic content.
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No really, what gives?
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No really, what gives?
What gives what?
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So now one has anything to say about this? Stella? Loco? Colossus?
Come on. Isn't it particularly careless on the part of the God who inspired/revealed these books to have dictated four different stories to his writers?
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Bump, waiting for an explanation......of the infallable word of God written in the bible
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There are three questions here. 1. Who were the first witnesses, 2. what did they see, and 3. what does it mean when it is said that the Bible is "inspired." It does not always mean that it was dictated word for word as it was in the case of God dictating the law to Moses.
Of course we have answers for these, but you'll have to be patient. I'm in the middle of a task at work and don't have time for long posts right now. ;D
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There are three questions here. 1. Who were the first witnesses, 2. what did they see, and 3. what does it mean when it is said that the Bible is "inspired." It does not always mean that it was dictated word for word as it was in the case of God dictating the law to Moses.
Of course we have answers for these, but you'll have to be patient. I'm in the middle of a task at work and don't have time for long posts right now. ;D
This means he is running through his book of Christian apologetics to find the appropriate explanation for this particular incongruity...one of thousands.... ::)
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This means he is running through his book of Christian apologetics to find the appropriate explanation for this particular incongruity...one of thousands.... ::)
Yeah, because that's what I do all day and all night, read apologetics and post on getbig.com. ;D
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Yeah, because that's what I do all day and all night, read apologetics and post on getbig.com. ;D
There are worse things to do in life... :P
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BUMP again. Let's see you "reverse-engineer" this one ;)
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So who are the witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus? And just what did they see? Let's look at scripture.
First, the synoptic Gospels (Mark, Matthew, and Luke: supposedly the latter two copied from Mark so at least they should have gotten their stories straight.)
Mark:
16:1And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, that they might come and anoint him. 16:2And very early on the first day of the week, they come to the tomb when the sun was risen. 16:3And they were saying among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the tomb? 16:4and looking up, they see that the stone is rolled back: for it was exceeding great. 16:5And entering into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, arrayed in a white robe; and they were amazed. 16:6And he saith unto them, Be not amazed: ye seek Jesus, the Nazarene, who hath been crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold, the place where they laid him! 16:7But go, tell his disciples and Peter, He goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
Matthew:
28:1Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 28:2And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled away the stone, and sat upon it. 28:3His appearance was as lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
Luke:
23:55And the women, who had come with him out of Galilee, followed after, and beheld the tomb, and how his body was laid. 23:56And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments. And on the sabbath they rested according to the commandment.
24:1But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came unto the tomb, bringing the spices which they had prepared. 24:2And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb. 24:3And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. 24:4And it came to pass, while they were perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel: 24:5and as they were affrighted and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? 24:6He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, 24:7saying that the Son of man must be delivered up into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. 24:8And they remembered his words, 24:9and returned from the tomb, and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest. 24:10Now they were Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James: and the other women with them told these things unto the apostles.
So who are the women who found the empty tomb: was it Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome? Was it Mary Magdalene and the other Mary? Or was it Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and the other women?
And did they see a young man sitting on the right side of the tomb? Or an angel of the Lord who had descended from heaven, and came and rolled away the stone, and sat upon it? Or was it two men stood by them in dazzling apparel?
Let's turn to the fourth Gospel, John, the Gospel of Christian theology par excellence.
John
20:1Now on the first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, while it was yet dark, unto the tomb, and seeth the stone taken away from the tomb. 20:2She runneth therefore, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we know not where they have laid him. 20:3 Peter therefore went forth, and the other disciple, and they went toward the tomb. 20:4And they ran both together: and the other disciple outran Peter, and came first to the tomb; 20:5and stooping and looking in, he seeth the linen cloths lying; yet entered he not in. 20:6Simon Peter therefore also cometh, following him, and entered into the tomb; and he beholdeth the linen cloths lying, 20:7and the napkin, that was upon his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but rolled up in a place by itself. 20:8Then entered in therefore the other disciple also, who came first to the tomb, and he saw, and believed. 20:9For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise from the dead. 20:10So the disciples went away again unto their own home. 20:11But Mary was standing without at the tomb weeping: so, as she wept, she stooped and looked into the tomb; 20:12and she beholdeth two angels in white sitting, one at the head, and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
So it was Mary Magdalene who discovered the open tomb, went to fetch Peter and the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and they found the tomb empty, the Mary Magdalene saw two angels in white? Who were sitting down? (as opposed to Luke's two standing men in dazzling apparel).
WHAT GIVES???
Well, I ain't no Bible scholar or anything, but I do read and study my Bible daily. Here is my take on it:
Nobody saw the actual resurrection. That is amazing. Had anyone been going to make up a resurrection story surely Jesus would have come striding out to be seen by his disciples.
What they saw was Jesus get crucified, killed and buried, then they saw his empty tomb, then a couple of angels, then finally they saw Jesus alive again.
The women are
Mary Magdalene
Mary, the wife of Cleopas, or Clopas. (John 19:25)
Mary, mother of Jesus
Joanna, "the wife of Cuza, the manager of Herod's household" (Luke 8:3)
Salome, who was also present during the crucifixion (Mark 15:40)
There might have been other women with them not mentioned by name..."and the others with them" (Luke 24:10) and "In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning" (Luke 24:22) and "and many others who provided for Him." (Luke 8:3)
After the arrest of Jesus in Gethsemane, his disciples (except for Peter and John) fled in the opposite direction from Jerusalem. The obvious place to go was Bethany which is about a mile and a half the other way, and we know Jesus had friends there (Matthew 21:17;26:6,Mark 11:1,11-12;14:1,3, Luke 19:29;24:50, John 1:28;11:1,18;12:1). There they stayed during Jesus' trials and crucifixion.
John was well known in Jerusalem (John 18:15-16) and probably had a place to stay there. After the crucifixion, John took Mary(mother of Jesus) to this home in Jerusalem (John 19:27). Peter, after denying Jesus three times, went to stay at John's home since that's where he is found in John 20:2-3. Other women who watched the burial (Luke 23:55) also probably went back to John's home. These included Salome and Mary(wife of Cleopas). Mary Magdalene would also have stayed with them. Joanna stayed at Herod's palace(Luke 8:3).
Mary(wife of Cleopas) and Salome both had sons amongst the disciples at Bethany, and Mary Magdalene may also have had relatives there, so they would have wanted to go there and tell the rest of Jesus' disciples everything that had transpired. So the next day, the two Mary's (maybe with Cleopas) walked to Bethany. They stayed there overnight.
So on resurrection day, Mary Magdalene and Mary(wife of Cleopas) left Bethany for the tomb(Mathew 28:1, John 20:1), and stopped at John's house on their way there to meet Mary(mother of Jesus) and Salome(Mark 16:1). Then they all left for the tomb, and on the way, they were joined by Joanna(Luke 24:10) who was staying at Herod's palace(Luke 8:3).
Mathew 28:2-4 tells us that there was a violent earthquake at the tomb and then he explains that the reason for the earthquake was that an angel came down from heaven and rolled back the stone and sat on it. The Roman guards saw this, but Mathew does not tell us that the women saw any of this, and they couldn't have because they were not there yet as we'll see in Mark 16:2-4. Mathew tells us only that this angel spoke to the women, which happens moments later (Mark 16:5-6,Mathew 28:5,Luke 24:4-5)
When the women did arrive at the edge of the garden, Mark tells us that they were some way off when they "looked up" and saw that the stone "which was very large" (Mark 16:4) had been rolled back. At this point, John 20:2-3 tells us that Mary Magdalene concluded the body had been taken and ran back to tell Peter and John. Meanwhile, the other women continued toward the tomb and by this time the angel who rolled away the stone was inside with at least one other angel. The women went inside the tomb and this is when the angel who rolled away the stone speaks to them(Mark 16:5, Mathew 28:5, Luke 25:5). Together this explains why Mary Magdalene did not see the angels at this point, but she does later as we will see in John 20:12.
Mary Magdalene ran back to John's house and told John and Peter what happens. So Peter and John ran to the tomb, followed from a distance by Mary Magdalene(John 20:2-9). By this time, the other women had left the tomb(Mathew 28:_8). Peter and John find the empty tomb, but they did not see the other women, nor the angels nor Jesus. Around this time, Mary Magdalene caught up with the two disciples and finally reaches the empty tomb for the first time. John believed Jesus had risen simply by finding the tomb empty, but Peter did not believe yet at this time. So the two disciples left the tomb and went back home, but Mary Magdalene stayed there alone(John 20:10-11). At this time, the angels reveal themselves again and one of them speaks, this time to Mary Magdalene(John 20:10-13).
At this time, Jesus appears to Mary Magdalene(John 20:14-16). And thus, Mary Magdalene was the first to see Jesus alive again(Mark 16:9).
Meanwhile, the other women are on their way to tell the disciples what they had seen and what the angels had told them. At this time, Jesus appears to them too. Thus, the other women are the second to see Jesus alive again(Mathew 28:8-9).
Later that day, all of the women in this account had told all of the disciples what they had seen and heard, but at this point all the men had seen neither the angels nor Jesus yet, so they did not yet believe the women. Then two of the men left for a village called Emmaus, and on their way there Jesus appeared to them too(Luke 24:13-15). Thus these two men were the third to see Jesus alive again.
Eventually Jesus appeared to all of his followers and they all saw him alive again.
There is no contradiction. The four Gospels do not contradict, but rather compliment one another. That is why all four were included in the New Testament. Since they all tell the same story, and if they really did have contradictions, we could have easily just picked one, and excluded the others. But they are accounts with input from different eyewitness sources. Note how the different accounts, as we would expect if based on real events, give features which make overall sense only when we put them together.
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loco, you truly do have the gift of denial :)
You can rationalize it away all you like, but the contradictions are as obvious as your desperation to maintain some credibility for Biblical sources.
For starters, what were the angels wearing?
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loco, you truly do have the gift of denial :)
You can rationalize it away all you like, but the contradictions are as obvious as your desperation to maintain some credibility for Biblical sources.
Okay, now that we know how you feel, how about telling me how I have the gift of denial and how I have rationalized anything away?
For starters, what were the angels wearing?
White, shining garments(Mathew 28:3, Mark 16:5, Luke 24:4,John 20:12).
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Since when are white clothes "dazzling garments"?
And were they standing or sitting?
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Since when are white clothes "dazzling garments"?
And were they standing or sitting?
Matthew 28:3 (New International Version)
"His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow."
Mark 16:5
"As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed."
Luke 24:4
"While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them."
The angels were sitting. The word "stood" in Luke 24:4 can also mean "appeared", as in angels "suddenly" appeared to them.
This one is a separate account, only Mary Magdalene was there:
John 20:12
"and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot."
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This one is a separate account, only Mary Magdalene was there:
John 20:12
"and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot."
Actually, all four Gospels indicate that multiple women were at the tomb. Remember that John quotes Mary Magdelene as saying in verse 2, "They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and WE know not where they have laid him."
That would indicate that Mary wasn't the only woman at the tomb, which is consistent with the other gospels. How many women, other than Mary Magdelene, get mentioned by name is the author's perrogative. Based on the accounts, we have at least four: Mary Magdelene, Joana, Salome, and Mary (mother of James).
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Actually, all four Gospels indicate that multiple women were at the tomb. Remember that John quotes Mary Magdelene as saying in verse 2, "They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and WE know not where they have laid him."
That would indicate that Mary wasn't the only woman at the tomb, which is consistent with the other gospels. How many women, other than Mary Magdelene, get mentioned by name is the author's perrogative. Based on the accounts, we have at least four: Mary Magdelene, Joana, Salome, and Mary (mother of James).
Thanks, MCWAY! Correct, how many women, other than Mary Magdalene, get mentioned by name is the author's prerogative. John seems to want to focus on Mary Magdalene a lot. So either way there is no contradiction.
The reason I think that Mary Magdalene was with the other women on her first trip to the tomb, but not on her second trip there after fetching Peter and John is this:
She first tells Peter and John
John 20:2
So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and WE don't know where they have put him!"
Which indicates to me that she was with the other women when she saw the stone rolled back from a distance and concluded that the body had been taken. However, after she goes to the tomb the second time with Peter and John, and after Peter and John had left her, she said to the angels:
John 20:13
They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?" "They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him."
Which indicates to me that she was alone this time.
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Thanks, MCWAY! Correct, how many women, other than Mary Magdalene, get mentioned by name is the author's prerogative. John seems to want to focus on Mary Magdalene a lot. So either way there is no contradiction.
It is an it isn't......Who's words are these? John's words or God's words?
If they are God's words he told the same story several different ways. If a person tells a story several times and omitts facts in all versions then it is a form of contradiction.
Are they God's words told by John, Mathew, Mark and Luke? then because they don;t match as one person telling them, they in fact are man's words and not God's.