Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: lonewolf on October 23, 2007, 01:22:51 PM
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I decided to start this thread because there is so much misconception about what goes on at the judges table,
how decisions are made and what goes on behind the scenes. I was an IFBB judge for 25 years. I sat at more judging tables for more years than any other judge, exclusive of Jim Manion. I am not here to cast dispersions
or glorify myself. I have no business affiliation with any magazine and am not employed in any capacity by any supplement company. I do have a vast personal knowledge of many events which have taken place over the years. Please ask me any questions you may have concerning judging, contest results and placings of contestants.
I will be as forthright as possible and promise to answer in an honest and open manner. I have made many wonderful friends over the years and met just as many not so wonderful people . Fire away.
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I decided to start this thread because there is so much misconception about what goes on at the judges table,
how decisions are made and what goes on behind the scenes. I was an IFBB judge for 25 years. I sat at more judging tables for more years than any other judge, exclusive of Jim Manion. I am not here to cast dispersions
or glorify myself. I have no business affiliation with any magazine and am not employed in any capacity by any supplement company. I do have a vast personal knowledge of many events which have taken place over the years. Please ask me any questions you may have concerning judging, contest results and placings of contestants.
I will be as forthright as possible and promise to answer in an honest and open manner. I have made many wonderful friends over the years and met just as many not so wonderful people . Fire away.
Ok, why do the judges change what they are looking for with each contest? >:( How the hell can we competitors be consistant and work on our development when they keep changing their minds about what they want to see on stage on the day of contest?
Thank you ;D
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I can hosnestly say that there were no shows fixed during the time I was judging. There wre some lousy decisions though
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OK, let's cut right to the chase. This from one of lonewolf's previous postings here:
I have been around bodybuilding long enough to know that while contests are not fixed per se, there is a situation
that should be noted. During a competition one or two judges will make the majority of the call outs. These two people are usually the head judge and the judge most closely seated to him. They make their call outs in the order that they perceveive the order of finish should be in that particular round. This places a strong influence on the rest of the judging panel, so that their placings reflect the results of the calls made by the head judge. While this is not fixing it comes awfully close................... The Wolf
Wolfie, how is it determined who the head and secondary judges will be in each show?
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The one question that does not seem to have an answer is WHY SOME OF THE TOP COMPETITIORS ARE NOT DIRECTLY COMPARED?? (recent example Wolf vs Cutler) It is obvious that there is no need not compare Jocelyn Pelettier with Cutler or Victor but not giving a chance to somebody like Wolf ....things that make you go hhhhmmmm.,.. :)
ps. ACCOUNTABILITY would be another issue, people would look at things differently if there would be a NAME behind that "lonewolf" moniker. :P
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how could Jay possibly have been in first place after friday's prejuding when he looked so bad?
I was not at this years Mr Olympia since I am no longer judging for the IFBB, so I cannot comment on this.
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>:( Where's my answer?
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OK, let's cut right to the chase. This from one of lonewolf's previous postings here:
Wolfie, how is it determined who the head and secondary judges will be in each show?
The head judge is usually selected by the director of judges . Each judge is then given a number so he or she has an assigned position on the panel.
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Ok, why do the judges change what they are looking for with each contest? >:( How the hell can we competitors be consistant and work on our development when they keep changing their minds about what they want to see on stage on the day of contest?
Thank you ;D
You may not believe this ,but there is a consistency what judges look for. The first of which is condition. Many times a competitor feels he or she is in the best condition of their life,bear in mind that condition is comparative
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The head judge is usually selected by the director of judges . Each judge is then given a number so he or she has an assigned position on the panel.
Who is the "director of judges?"
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The one question that does not seem to have an answer is WHY SOME OF THE TOP COMPETITIORS ARE NOT DIRECTLY COMPARED?? (recent example Wolf vs Cutler) It is obvious that there is no need not compare Jocelyn Pelettier with Cutler or Victor but not giving a chance to somebody like Wolf ....things that make you go hhhhmmmm.,.. :)
ps. ACCOUNTABILITY would be another issue, people would look at things differently if there would be a NAME behind that "lonewolf" moniker. :P
Many times the panel has made up their minds as to who the top two or three are in a particular round,so competitors may not be called again. As for who I am ,my name is John Calascione and have nothing to hide.
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Who is the "director of judges?"
Usually it's Jim Manion, in his absence Jm Rockell. Iam very proud to have known both of them
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Usually it's Jim Manion, in his absence Jm Rockell. Iam very proud to have known both of them
So is Jim Manion more or less the man ultimately responsible for the current IFBB ideal?
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Many times the panel has made up their minds as to who the top two or three are in a particular round,so competitors may not be called again. As for who I am ,my name is John Calascione and have nothing to hide.
Honest answer, thank you. D
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What do you think of judges banging competitors that they will then judge. Even if the judge is married and the competitor is dating someone also in the business.
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You may not believe this ,but there is a consistency what judges look for. The first of which is condition. Many times a competitor feels he or she is in the best condition of their life,bear in mind that condition is comparative
Personally I think that's a mistake, overall balance and symmetry should be a first, seeing guys like Kamali beat Wolf....that was a fiasco,to mention just one of the cases.....or Paco Bautista beating ...anybody as a matter of fact solely based on the fact he was very well conditioned ,and I have a feeling I am not speaking only fopr myself. :o
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lonewolf: How did Bob Chick get 1st in this contest while Rusty Jeffers came in 8th? Why weren’t they called out together?
2006 Masters Pro World - IFBB
1 Bob Cicherillo
2 Johnny Stewart
3 Pavol Jablonicky
4 Claude Groulx
5 Stan McCrary
6 Nathan Wonsley
7 John Simmons
8 Rusty Jeffers
9 Joseph Palumbo
10 Alberto Bistocchi
11 Daryl Stafford
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So is Jim Manion more or less the man ultimately responsible for the current IFBB ideal?
I don't know if I want to place this on Jim entirely but there is a concensus of Judges who decide what the standards may be via the results of a competition. So it's not one person. I must say that the ideal today is not my is not my idea of bodybuilding as it should be. Aesthetics have been greatly over looked the past several years.
i
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Personally I think that's a mistake, overall balance and symmetry should be a first, seeing guys like Kamali beat Wolf....that was a fiasco,to mention just one of the cases.....or Paco Bautista beating ...anybody as a matter of fact solely based on the fact he was very well conditioned ,and I have a feeling I am not speaking only fopr myself. :o
I didn't mean to imply that condition should take precedence over other factors . Of course balance and symmetry are just as important, but if you're not in great condition it's going to hurt you a bit.
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lonewolf,
using your experience from contests, how would you explain the events that lead to Cutler winning and Wolf placing in 5th?
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How did you come to be an IFBB judge?
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lonewolf,
using your experience from contests, how would you explain the events that lead to Cutler winning and Wolf placing in 5th?
I honestly can't answer that since I wasn't there
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How did you come to be an IFBB judge?
I was an amateur competitor during the 1970s. I went into the health food business at that time and began judging NPC shows during that time period. I built a solid reputation on that and was asked to fill in for the1980 NOC
when one of the other pro judges couldn't make it. my scores were absolutely accurate and became a pro judge from that point on. I was very fortunate
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1. Do you judge solely on the quality of the physique or do you give a competitor credit for "paying their dues?"
2. At what point do you take off points for gyno. Seems alot of amateur competitors in the Cali contest were suffering from it big time but weren't marked down significantly.
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Is there opportunity as an IFBB judge to benefit monetarily from placings?
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1. Do you judge solely on the quality of the physique or do you give a competitor credit for "paying their dues?"
2. At what point do you take off points for gyno. Seems alot of amateur competitors in the Cali contest were suffering from it big time but weren't marked down significantly.
Paying your dues has no place in physique evaluation. Any judge who indulges in this practice should be removed from the panel. Competitors should be marked down for gyno since it distorts the quality of the body.
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Is there opportunity as an IFBB judge to benefit monetarily from placings?
Not from my own experience.
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Not from my own experience.
Did you ever know of any of your peers to benefit financially from their scoring?
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Did you ever know of any of your peers to benefit financially from their scoring?
NO
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Paying your dues has no place in physique evaluation. Any judge who indulges in this practice should be removed from the panel. Competitors should be marked down for gyno since it distorts the quality of the body.
I guess you didn't preside over the 1998 Olympia then lol
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Why are the lesser-ranked judges on a panel so swayed by the head and secondary judge's opinions? Is the influence merely the result of human nature, or do the far-seated judges know that their placing needs to be somewhat in alignment with that of the head judge to secure their future panel positions?
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What is you real name, you can PM to me.
Did Wayne D ever told you that if you not cooperate with him on the placing you will never judge agent?
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Why are the lesser-ranked judges on a panel so swayed by the head and secondary judge's opinions? Is the influence merely the result of human nature, or do the far-seated judges know that their placing needs to be somewhat in alignment with that of the head judge to secure their future panel positions?
They do look for consistency in judges they usually remove a judge of his or hers pick is vastly different from all the others.
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Why are the lesser-ranked judges on a panel so swayed by the head and secondary judge's opinions? Is the influence merely the result of human nature, or do the far-seated judges know that their placing needs to be somewhat in alignment with that of the head judge to secure their future panel positions?
That's very good point Jeff. D
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Many times the panel has made up their minds as to who the top two or three are in a particular round,so competitors may not be called again. As for who I am ,my name is John Calascione and have nothing to hide.
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What was the last Pro Show you did judge?
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Since he is kind enough to answer SERIOUS questions, be nice!
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Did Wayne D ever told you that if you not cooperate with him on the placing you will never judge agent?
So you not answering because is true?
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Why are the lesser-ranked judges on a panel so swayed by the head and secondary judge's opinions? Is the influence merely the result of human nature, or do the far-seated judges know that their placing needs to be somewhat in alignment with that of the head judge to secure their future panel positions?
Judges sometimes have a difficult time . Not so much with the top 5 most of the time, but there can be wide disparity in places below that. Of course I have met some judges who just didn't have a clue. You'd be surprised at how difficult it can sometimes be to put together a solid panel.
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Since he is kind enough to answer SERIOUS questions, be nice!
so he is for real then?
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Judges sometimes have a difficult time . Not so much with the top 5 most of the time, but there can be wide disparity in places below that. Of course I have met some judges who just didn't have a clue. You'd be surprised at how difficult it can sometimes be to put together a solid panel.
who do you think won the mr olympia 1981, 94, 95,96,97 ?
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Back when you were judging was there any dicussion or disagreement among judges about how to place an athlete sporting a gut?
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Did Wayne D ever told you that if you not cooperate with him on the placing you will never judge agent?
I have known Wayne for nearly 30 years and has NEVER made any such threat or comment to me
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Back when you were judging was there any dicussion or disagreement among judges about how to place an athlete sporting a gut?
Of course was, and if you did`t go with Wayne`s decision Wayne would not lat you to judge agent. Ask Gaspari if you don`t believe me.
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Back when you were judging was there any dicussion or disagreement among judges about how to place an athlete sporting a gut?
Absolutely. There were times when we had some pretty strong disagreements amongst each other. Remember while wer'e always trying to pick the best, sometimes our own ideals influence us.
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John Calascione
(http://www.musclememory.com/magCovers/mti/mti066.jpg)
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who do you think won the mr olympia 1981, 94, 95,96,97 ?
1995? lmfao 1997 sure the rest no contest.
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Chris Cormier just told me about being allowed to sit up front at this year's Mr. Olympia in conjunction with his Flex hosting duties and said that judging from the head table must be a whole different ballgame than judging from 50-100 feet back, because he was blown away by the different areas of detail that tend to get your attention from up that close that he wasn't used to factoring into his decisions before. Would you agree?
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Of course was, and if you did`t go with Wayne`s decision Wayne would not lat you to judge agent. Ask Gaspari if you don`t believe me.
Try and undrstand this . Wayne never had anything to do with the results of a contest. He may have strongly disagreed with the panel, but that was it. Sounds as if you have a great deal of misinformation.
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Try and undrstand this . Wayne never had anything to do with the results of a contest. He may have strongly disagreed with the panel, but that was it. Sounds as if you have a great deal of misinformation.
Exactly these guys want to believe what they want to believe and anything to the contrary can't possibly be right .
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1995? lmfao 1997 sure the rest no contest.
do you ever post anything that isnt related to dorian?
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Chris Cormier just told me about being allowed to sit up front at this year's Mr. Olympia in conjunction with his Flex hosting duties and said that judging from the head table must be a whole different ballgame than judging from 50-100 feet back, because he was blown away by the different areas of detail that tend to get your attention from up that close that he wasn't used to factoring into his decisions before. Would you agree?
Chris is absolutely right. Sitting at the judges table gives you a much different perspective than sitting ten rows back.
You have the opportunity to really evaluate a physique for a long period of time . I have seen competitors melt before my very eyes , while some look better as the day goes on.
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Since he is kind enough to answer SERIOUS questions, be nice!
Thanks Ron
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do you ever post anything that isnt related to dorian?
Yes it just happens YOU ONLY pay attention to the things that do ;) amd if you think Yates should have lost in 1995 you haven't the slightest comprehension of competitive bodybuilding .
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Ron give this man his blue stars. We finally have somebody that has first hand knowledge about the judging procedures, that might shed some light on some mysteries.. :)
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Try and undrstand this . Wayne never had anything to do with the results of a contest. He may have strongly disagreed with the panel, but that was it. Sounds as if you have a great deal of misinformation.
I don`t believe that, for example in one of the Russian Grand Ps tow judges had Milos 4 th and one judge had him at 3th place, than Wayne changed the placing and Milos was placed 8th, in 2002 at a pro show Wayne changed the rules in the last minute the promoter told Wayne that hi can`t do that his respond was I can do anything I want.
And is much more.
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Try and undrstand this . Wayne never had anything to do with the results of a contest. He may have strongly disagreed with the panel, but that was it. Sounds as if you have a great deal of misinformation.
I believe that you try to be honest but pleas don't say that Wayne never had anything to do with placing, just say you don't know that makes you look better.
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I don`t believe that, for example in one of the Russian Grand Ps tow judges had Milos 4 th and one judge had him at 3th place, than Wayne changed the placing and Milos was placed 8th, in 2002 at a pro show Wayne changed the rules in the last minute the promoter told Wayne that hi can`t do that his respond was I can do anything I want.
And is much more.
Not be a dickhead but how do you know all this ...were you there? Honest question...
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Not be a dickhead but how do you know all this ...were you there? Honest question...
Yes.
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Yes.
Milos please confirm the Russian incident.
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I believe that you try to be honest but pleas don't say that Wayne never had anything to do with placing, just say you don't know that makes you look better.
This is one of the reasons I hesitated to start this thread. I will not indulge in bashing or entertaining any sour grapes on what sounds like one of the judges who didn't have a clue!
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Ron give this man his blue stars. We finally have somebody that has first hand knowledge about the judging procedures, that might shed some light on some mysteries.. :)
Seconded.
This is good stuff and I would respectfully ask the "characters" here to not fuck up a good resource for a change
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This is one of the reasons I hesitated to start this thread. I will not indulge in bashing or entertaining any sour grapes on what sounds like one of the judges who didn't have a clue!
Please continue , I know 99% of the people who post are completely ignorant of exactly how the judging works thats why so many buy into fixed contests and conspiracy theories , they base everything on their own personal preference and not on the established criteria , but please don't let these guys discourage you .
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why do the judges tolerate abdominal distension?
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Do you think most of the IFBB judges (at least stateside) read the message boards?
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Please continue , I know 99% of the people who post are completely ignorant of exactly how the judging works thats why so many buy into fixed contests and conspiracy theories , they base everything on their own personal preference and not on the established criteria , but please don't let these guys discourage you .
Thanks for the vote of confidence D. It's nice to know that there are people out there who are interested in finding out the truth. I have judged so many shows over the years that they sometimes become a bit of a blur. I promise to maintain my integrity.
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why do the judges tolerate abdominal distension?
Good Question
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Do most of the IFBB judges you know indicate that they read the bodybuilding message boards? (Getbig) ;D
I doubt it
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here is a serious question:
how can someone with torn asymmetrical biceps be given a perfect score in the symmetry round? eg. dorian yates 94+.
is the symmetry round simply a gift?
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Do you have to bring that bullshit here, seriously?
Great post !
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Were you on any of the panels that denied Shawn Ray an Olympia victory? How did you vote?
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Good Question
I hate the look of the distended abdomen. I think it has truly set bodybuilding back. It may be one of the reasons attendance has fallen off so greatly.
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Do you have to bring that bullshit here, seriously?
yes, because ND goes around with his nose up in the air acting like he is the only one on this board that knows anything and the rest of us are all idiots.
and it pisses me off.
you and me are both included in his stupid 99.9% of people are ignorant and only I am right bullshit.
the guy needs a lesson in reality.
he thinks everyone is stupid and we are NOT.
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here is a serious question:
how can someone with torn asymmetrical biceps be given a perfect score in the symmetry round? eg. dorian yates 94+.
is the symmetry round simply a gift?
Your ignorance shines through ( again ) if you know how judging works you'd know ALL ROUNDS are physique rounds , symmetry is NOT judged as a separate and distinct element from the other criteria hence why someone like Dorian can win over more ' symmetrical ' guys in the ' symmetry ' round more to symmetry than just left/right exactness .
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lonewolf: How did Bob Chick get 1st in this contest while Rusty Jeffers came in 8th? Why weren’t they called out together?
2006 Masters Pro World - IFBB
1 Bob Cicherillo
2 Johnny Stewart
3 Pavol Jablonicky
4 Claude Groulx
5 Stan McCrary
6 Nathan Wonsley
7 John Simmons
8 Rusty Jeffers
9 Joseph Palumbo
10 Alberto Bistocchi
11 Daryl Stafford
It must be because of the GAY MUSTACHE. . .sorry, that thing has to go. . .holy shit, what was he thinking????!?
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yes, because ND goes around with his nose up in the air acting like he is the only one on this board that knows anything and the rest of us are all idiots.
and it pisses me off.
you and me are both included in his stupid 99.9% of people are ignorant and only I am right bullshit.
the guy needs a lesson in reality.
he thinks everyone is stupid and we are NOT.
please I like having a judge here don't ruin this.
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Were you on any of the panels that denied Shawn Ray an Olympia victory? How did you vote?
Yes I was. Shawn should have earned at least one Sandow in my opinion.
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What is the difference between symmetry and proportion, in judging terms?
Hulkster raises a valid question in how does a guy with a badly torn bicep get straight firsts in the symmetry round?
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What is the difference between symmetry and proportion, in judging terms?
Hulkster raises a valid question in how does a guy with a badly torn bicep get straight firsts in the symmetry round?
Again symmetry includes more than just left/right exactness and symmetry is NOT judged as a sole entity all rounds are physique rounds the same with the muscularity round and the posing rounds .
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Yes I was. Shawn should have earned at least one Sandow in my opinion.
You put him first?
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Again symmetry includes more than just left/right exactness and symmetry is NOT judged as a sole entity all rounds are physique rounds the same with the muscularity round and the posing rounds .
I wasn't asking you ND. we all know how you feel. i'm looking for an unbiased opinion
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What is the difference between symmetry and proportion, in judging terms?
Hulkster raises a valid question in how does a guy with a badly torn bicep get straight firsts in the symmetry round?
Symmetry refers to the right and left sides of the body being in balance. Proportion refers to the body parts being in balance to each other eg. shoulders to chest , chest to arms etc.
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Again symmetry includes more than just left/right exactness and symmetry is NOT judged as a sole entity all rounds are physique rounds the same with the muscularity round and the posing rounds .
even if it does, how can such a major tear not even be penalized even one point?
its bullshit.
everyone but you thinks so.
you are making a fool out of yourself in your love for dorian, you do realize this?
better stop posting and acting like you are the only one who knows anything. like always.. ::)
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You put him first?
Yes I did, and did I hear it from some of my colleages. I have to be honest I don't recall what year.
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even if it does, how can such a major tear not even be penalized even one point?
its bullshit.
everyone but you thinks so.
you are making a fool out of yourself in your love for dorian, you do realize this?
better stop posting and acting like you are the only one who knows anything. like always.. ::)
A bicep tear wasn't a major tear it was a minor tear , Kevin Levrone had a major tear ( pec tear ) you can make a case for him not winning with a perfect score but he was the clear winner according to the JUDGES and again keep in mind all rounds are physique rounds in the ' symmetry ' round the guy with the best ' symmetry ' shouldn't win the round if he's lacking in other areas of the criteria .
and I may not know everything but recall I'm explaining this to you , so what does that tell you? ;)
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Symmetry refers to the right and left sides of the body being in balance. Proportion refers to the body parts being in balance to each other eg. shoulders to chest , chest to arms etc.
Thanks dude.
What do you think of the judges going by a mathematical template of sorts, for judging purposes.
IE a consensus "ideal" physique is agreed upon, and contestants are rewarded or penalized as too how well they adhere, or stray, from the Ideal. this way there is a concrete equation and eliminates the gray area regarding symmetry and proportion. Conditioning is easily judged so it's not a factor.
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I wasn't asking you ND. we all know how you feel. i'm looking for an unbiased opinion
I am unbiased thats exactly how I can come to my conclusions I was rooting for Flex Wheeler in 1993 and when he lost I couldn't understand how this was ...........after doing some research I found out why .
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So if I understand this right, there's no overt "fixing" going on, but Manion picks the head judge, who then decides the callouts based on how he wants the placements to go? The rest of the judges are under enormous pressure to vote the same way as everyong else in order to be considered a "good judge" who knows what he's doing, and the easiest way to do that is to follow the head judge's lead via the callouts?
So Manion picks a head judge who will "play ball" and understands that Mu$cleTech paid a lot of money and expects their boy to win, the judges do as they're expected to, yet most everyone on the panel can claim there was no "fix". ::)
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I hate the look of the distended abdomen. I think it has truly set bodybuilding back. It may be one of the reasons attendance has fallen off so greatly.
The results of recent pro shows indicate that most judges do not agree with you. Have you spoken to other judges about this issue? Do you think there is any chance of swaying the tide back in the direction of aesthetics and proportion?
Thanks,
sS
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I will refrain from posting pictures of the horrendous bi out of respect for this thread.
but you are an idiot. just so you know. :-\
you are not explaining anything. you are showing how stupid you really are.
You're the one asking how he can win the symmetry round with an asymmetrical bicep if you had ANY grasp how on the judging works you'd already know that SYMMETRY is NOT judged as a separate and distinct element from the other criteria , again I'm explaining this to YOU you're not explaining this to me, seriously you're the same guy who claimed Dorian lost the 1993 Mr Olympia that is indicative of ignorance of competitive bodybuilding .
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So if I understand this right, there's no overt "fixing" going on, but Manion picks the head judge, who then decides the callouts based on how he wants the placements to go? The rest of the judges are under enormous pressure to vote the same way as everyong else in order to be considered a "good judge" who knows what he's doing, and the easiest way to do that is to follow the head judge's lead via the callouts?
So Manion picks a head judge who will "play ball" and understands that Mu$cleTech paid a lot of money and expects their boy to win, the judges do as they're expected to, yet most everyone on the panel can claim there was no "fix". ::)
That is very accurate.
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Everyone who cries ' fixed ' undermines the judges integrity and honesty , no wonder why no judges will post here. everyone thinks they know whats going on but when you get someone who does and explains it you don't like the answer and revert back to conspiracy theories .
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So if I understand this right, there's no overt "fixing" going on, but Manion picks the head judge, who then decides the callouts based on how he wants the placements to go? The rest of the judges are under enormous pressure to vote the same way as everyong else in order to be considered a "good judge" who knows what he's doing, and the easiest way to do that is to follow the head judge's lead via the callouts?
So Manion picks a head judge who will "play ball" and understands that Mu$cleTech paid a lot of money and expects their boy to win, the judges do as they're expected to, yet most everyone on the panel can claim there was no "fix". ::)
No. After initial callouts are made by the panel (usually after the top 5 are compared) Then the procedure follows that the head judge makes most of the calls. Many times this is done so that the competitors who are near the bottom get a call.
In many cases this does help a judge with his placings. There is no perfect system
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No. After initial callouts are made by the panel (usually after the top 5 are compared) Then the procedure follows that the head judge makes most of the calls. Many times this is done so that the competitors who are near the bottom get a call.
In many cases this does help a judge with his placings. There is no perfect system
I think my system would be near-perfect., ;D
Just like dog shows.......the judges know EXACTLY what they are looking for and the one that comes the closest wins
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The results of recent pro shows indicate that most judges do not agree with you. Have you spoken to other judges about this issue? Do you think there is any chance of swaying the tide back in the direction of aesthetics and proportion?
Thanks,
sS
I haven't been on an IFBB panel in 2 years so I really don't have much contact with the guys anymore
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I use to train/hang with Mohammed Makkawy... he used to know how to play game... in Montreal for '84 Ms. Olympia .... we went to the room where the judges had assembled... Mohammed ordered drinks for everyone (he had placed second in Olympia few weeks before)....
Julien Blommaert (IFBB President of Belgium who promoted '85 Olympia) was talking to all judges saying certain female BB'er will "never place as that bitch was rude to me in the elevator"... and you think this is JUST about physiques! Judges people in blue blazers who like free travel, free hotels, free booze and food, and PERKS. Why screw up a good thing by going against the establishment. This is not new to bb'ing, and even worse now as the supplement $$$$$ has entered the fray. Thnx.
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Yes I did, and did I hear it from some of my colleages. I have to be honest I don't recall what year.
What did "hearing it" from your colleagues consist of? What were their arguments as to why he shouldn't have been placed first? Were there particular judges that had been rubbed the wrong way by Shawn?
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Hmmm...this post keeps getting rejected.
And John Calascione starting this thread just when allegations of corrupt practices by Paul Chua and his coterie of crooked Asian judges is making the rounds...Looks like the spin doctors from the IFBB are hard at work!
Hey, Santonja! Nobody's ever raised the spectre of crooked judging by your IFBB Judging Panels - only about your crooked Asian brethen, Paul Chua!!!
Nice theory...wrong...but nice none the less.
John hasn't judged in the IFBB in over 2 years, and was Wayne's right hand man with the PDI....he has no reason to lie, and certainly wouldn't be doing it at the request of the IFBB....
no conspiracy here......
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Nice theory...wrong...but nice none the less.
John hasn't judged in the IFBB in over 2 years, and was Wayne's right hand man with the PDI....he has no reason to lie, and certainly wouldn't be doing it at the request of the IFBB....
no conspiracy here......
I certainly don't detect one; he sounds as straight up as one could so far, IMO. But this is great...I'm enjoying his candor. Let's see what other insight we can gain from him. John thanks for this opportunity so far.
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Nice theory...wrong...but nice none the less.
John hasn't judged in the IFBB in over 2 years, and was Wayne's right hand man with the PDI....he has no reason to lie, and certainly wouldn't be doing it at the request of the IFBB....
no conspiracy here......
All I have to say is if John, after two years of NOT judging gets his stars, Vince G. should get his.
Sandra
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All I have to say is if John, after two years of NOT judging gets his stars, Vince G. should get his.
Sandra
You judge, Sandra?
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John Calascione said:
my scores were absolutely accurate and became a pro judge from that point on. I was very fortunate
This is where the 'deviation' method of judging guarantees conformity and consensus. That is why the judges agree but many decisions are controversial.
It is possible but unlikely that all the judges get it wrong about who the winner should be. Therefore consensus is no guarantee that the best person will win. Goatboy is absolutely correct in his assessment of the callouts. The practice is well-known that the first 3 place-getters are called out first to compare. It is an easy matter to then select your first 3 from this group. Callouts can be refined to have the guy who should win in the middle of those 3. This is an extremely important matter in judging. I would like to see all judges secretly select the first callouts and then a consensus be chosen from what ALL the judges want. That is far better than letting the head judge take responsibility for the callouts.
What seems to be happening in most professional contests is that 'conditioning' is the main factor used to separate the competitors. This is because it is something that can be easily assessed, especially by judges sitting way too close to the bodybuilders. I have always felt the judges should be placed at least 10 rows back and separated so that no one can communicate with any other judge. Ideally there should be no audience for the prejudging. There should be no scoring of the posedown freeforall at the end, either. That was a way to correct 'errant' judges.
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John Calascione said:
This is where the 'deviation' method of judging guarantees conformity and consensus. That is why the judges agree but many decisions are controversial.
It is possible but unlikely that all the judges get it wrong about who the winner should be. Therefore consensus is no guarantee that the best person will win. Goatboy is absolutely correct in his assessment of the callouts. The practice is well-known that the first 3 place-getters are called out first to compare. It is an easy matter to then select your first 3 from this group. Callouts can be refined to have the guy who should win in the middle of those 3. This is an extremely important matter in judging. I would like to see all judges secretly select the first callouts and then a consensus be chosen from what ALL the judges want. That is far better than letting the head judge take responsibility for the callouts.
What seems to be happening in most professional contests is that 'conditioning' is the main factor used to separate the competitors. This is because it is something that can be easily assessed, especially by judges sitting way too close to the bodybuilders. I have always felt the judges should be placed at least 10 rows back and separated so that no one can communicate with any other judge. Ideally there should be no audience for the prejudging. There should be no scoring of the posedown freeforall at the end, either. That was a way to correct 'errant' judges.
Conditioning first. Then proportion... then shape... Then size, if it ever actually comes down to it. As a pro, they all have size. Most all have proportion. Shapes vary, but you know what to expect...so it's completely logical that conditioning should always be one of your most key indicators in picking a winner. You can have a winner without alot of things but conditioning should never be one of them. I say take every conditioned guy onstage first off and that's who you're picking from to be the champ. I mean that's more or less what happens in a good first call out. Sometimes you've got sleepers but they usually get it through the grape vine as to who they should be looking out for. If they don't, then you didn't do your PR work and it's nobody's fault but your own. This could be as simple as telling a friend that you know who knows people "Pssst...check this out."
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Should conditioning be more important than proportions? Size is also related to proportions. For example, athletes like Dexter with small calves suffer both size and proportion issues. Surely that deficiency is more important than conditioning, all other factors equal?
There just seems to be some sort of acceptance that certain physiques are superior regardless of balance and aesthetics. Gynocomastia has been mentioned as detracting from a physique. Just how does one go about deducting points for that aberration? Coleman won with gynocomastia and poor balance because of suspect calves. I mean, how can a guy be 'conditioned' yet have few cuts or striations in his gastrocnemius muscles?
Seems to me conditioning is the factor most judges can deal with. Assessing physiques on the other criteria can be rather difficult. It is much easier for the head judge to do the hard work and let the judges know who to vote for. This is the reality of most shows and why so many remain controversial.
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Should conditioning be more important than proportions? Size is also related to proportions. For example, athletes like Dexter with small calves suffer both size and proportion issues. Surely that deficiency is more important than conditioning, all other factors equal?
There just seems to be some sort of acceptance that certain physiques are superior regardless of balance and aesthetics. Gynocomastia has been mentioned as detracting from a physique. Just how does one go about deducting points for that aberration? Coleman won with gynocomastia and poor balance because of suspect calves. I mean, how can a guy be 'conditioned' yet have few cuts or striations in his gastrocnemius muscles?
Seems to me conditioning is the factor most judges can deal with. Assessing physiques on the other criteria can be rather difficult. It is much easier for the head judge to do the hard work and let the judges know who to vote for. This is the reality of most shows and why so many remain controversial.
Vince I'm with ya on the conditioning but I still think Dexter's calves are fine. For me personally, I couldn't tell you there was anything wrong with Dexter's calves, because that never occurs to me when looking at his overall package. Hell for all we know, if he had big calves we might need for something else to be bigger. This may be a pretty unpopular opinion but you've got 2 schools of thought on Dexter, basically: 1) He's perfect, or 2) his calves suck. I'm a member of the first and I think the second just needed to find something to bitch about.
As for judging gyno, well, that just means they aren't ready yet. But as long as you're not giving them first place, you can still place them above a few other guys with much lesser physiques than the guy having the gyno. Gyno shouldn't make you automatically last, now should it?
Just the way I see it, perhaps, but maybe you could too.
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No offense to John, but to what purpose does any of this serve? Would anyone one here really expect him to come out and say that a show was fixed? Would it even last on this board. I don't fucking care if it's the IFBB the NPC, NABBA or PDI, there is no room for fixing shows. I can say on record that I have personally kown judges in the NPC, guys that I know, who have placed guys low because of their dislike for them and it goes on all the time. I know it to be true because I have heard it with my own ears so this much I stand by and always will. For someone to diet for months and have this kind of shit go on even once is intolerable, but unfortunatley it happens.
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Conditioning first. Then proportion... then shape... Then size, if it ever actually comes down to it. As a pro, they all have size. Most all have proportion. Shapes vary, but you know what to expect...so it's completely logical that conditioning should always be one of your most key indicators in picking a winner. You can have a winner without alot of things but conditioning should never be one of them. I say take every conditioned guy onstage first off and that's who you're picking from to be the champ. I mean that's more or less what happens in a good first call out. Sometimes you've got sleepers but they usually get it through the grape vine as to who they should be looking out for. If they don't, then you didn't do your PR work and it's nobody's fault but your own. This could be as simple as telling a friend that you know who knows people "Pssst...check this out."
How do you judge between a guy that's perfectly conditioned the day of the shpw but has a shitty build( no proportions, symmetry and shape whatsoever , for exemple Paco) and somebody else that is only 80% in terms of conditioning but has the other qualities to balance out the lack of 1100 % conditioning. Remember we're talking about somebody that's almost there in terms of conditioning ???
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Jesus it's not rocket science. It's personal preference, eye of the beholder, that type of thing. Some of you guys are making this way too complicated. Remeber, Jay won the Olympia. So there are times when even the judges get over ridden.
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How do you judge between a guy that's perfectly conditioned the day of the shpw but has a shitty build( no proportions, symmetry and shape whatsoever , for exemple Paco) and somebody else that is only 80% in terms of conditioning but has the other qualities to balance out the lack of 1100 % conditioning. Remember we're talking about somebody that's almost there in terms of conditioning ???
I have a theory that on show day only one man will ever truly peak, condition-wise. Or one in each class if it's not a pro show. And when I say peak, I mean PEAK, like, the best we've ever seen of a guy and the best we're convinced we're GONNA see him. Almost like Branch Warren at the New York Pro this year. Almost. Please don't let that analogy cloud what I'm trying to say here. But it's something in the way the stars align. If Paco were truly peaked he'd be the best combination of everything that day anyway. He just would have been.
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No offense to John, but to what purpose does any of this serve? Would anyone one here really expect him to come out and say that a show was fixed? Would it even last on this board. I don't fucking care if it's the IFBB the NPC, NABBA or PDI, there is no room for fixing shows. I can say on record that I have personally kown judges in the NPC, guys that I know, who have placed guys low because of their dislike for them and it goes on all the time. I know it to be true because I have heard it with my own ears so this much I stand by and always will. For someone to diet for months and have this kind of shit go on even once is intolerable, but unfortunatley it happens.
I could imagine a few legitimate motivations he might have at this point in his life. Remember he has no curret ties to protect with them and everything to gain from us.
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I could imagine a few legitimate motivations he might have at this point in his life. Remember he has no curret ties to protect with them and everything to gain from us.
Then feel free to post your imagined legite motivations. ;)
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Jesus it's not rocket science. It's personal preference, eye of the beholder, that type of thing. Some of you guys are making this way too complicated. Remeber, Jay won the Olympia. So there are times when even the judges get over ridden.
Right on J 8)
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Then feel free to post your imagined legite motivations. ;)
::)
Jim come on Jim...
If judging's so simple, why'd it take you 35 posts to tell us why your boy Kamali deserved 8th in his last show? ;D Now we're making things "too complicated." Here's something simple...anybody out of the top 6, I don't even put a number to.
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::)
Jim come on Jim...
If judging's so simple, why'd it take you 35 posts to tell us why your boy Kamali deserved 8th in his last show? ;D Now we're making things "too complicated." Here's something simple...anybody out of the top 6, I don't even put a number to.
Judging is very simple, more than you seem to realize. Come on Jeff I have a feeling that you realize this, but just like typing with one hand. ;D BTW, I have never made a post about why King should have placed higher in any show. :D
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It wasn't that long ago that arms and calves were, ideally, the same size. When guys started getting ever larger arms, like Arnold, the standard was modified to allow arms to be slightly bigger than the calves. However, those two body parts should not be vastly different in size. If they are, then the proportions suffer because there is an inbalance.
During the last webcast of the Olympia they discussed Dexter and Charles Glass couldn't point out Dexter's fault of having small and high calves. A black guy with good balance re arms and calves is Vince Taylor.
According to the proportions criteria Dexter could not win the Mr Olympia with his current imbalance. Jay is much more balanced than Dexter. Ronnie Coleman is less balanced than Cutler.
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Serious question, one that has haunted me for years. In the 2001 olympia, how did ronnie come back and win the contest based on the night show? I was at that show, it was and is the only proffesional bodybuilding show I ever went to. I was disgusted that jay was robbed and lost all interest in becoming a pro bodybuilder, at the time that was what I had dreamed of doing since I was 14. DId you judge that show? Did ronnie win because he was just too big for jay I mean jay lead after the prejudging! ROnnie was holding sooo much water it was pathetic really and his gut was huge!
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You may not believe this ,but there is a consistency what judges look for. The first of which is condition. Many times a competitor feels he or she is in the best condition of their life,bear in mind that condition is comparative
I dunno wolfie. My first show the head judge told all the girls "we aren't looking for muscle here, don't be up there flexing cuz we aren't looking for that". Majority of the girls went on stage trying to make themselves look "softer" and who ends up winning not only my class but the whole show? The one girl who was up there standing hard and flexed. The following show (2 months later, same place...almost all the same judges) not a word was said about looking for muscle or not looking for muscle. No that I was in my best shape (cuz I know I wasn't) but I definitely was up there standing hard and flexed (because that's what they chose for the look 2 months prior) and what do they pic? A beach bunny girl. Someone who looked like she never stepped in a gym and just had a nice body. All the bottom girls...myself included were harder. I went to get my scores and was told by the head judge that I was too big and my structure would be better suited in bbing. (Which is what I am now doing)
What gives? ???
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I dunno wolfie. My first show the head judge told all the girls "we aren't looking for muscle here, don't be up there flexing cuz we aren't looking for that". Majority of the girls went on stage trying to make themselves look "softer" and who ends up winning not only my class but the whole show? The one girl who was up there standing hard and flexed. The following show (2 months later, same place...almost all the same judges) not a word was said about looking for muscle or not looking for muscle. No that I was in my best shape (cuz I know I wasn't) but I definitely was up there standing hard and flexed (because that's what they chose for the look 2 months prior) and what do they pic? A beach bunny girl. Someone who looked like she never stepped in a gym and just had a nice body. All the bottom girls...myself included were harder. I went to get my scores and was told by the head judge that I was too big and my structure would be better suited in bbing. (Which is what I am now doing)
What gives? ???
"Still" natural, Laura? ;D
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Everyone already knows my breasts and nails are fake and my hair is dyed. My eye are really green though. ;D
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Everyone already knows my breasts and nails are fake and my hair is dyed. My eye are really green though. ;D
Works for me, dear. :) You're gonna like bodybuilding.
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Works for me, dear. :) You're gonna like bodybuilding.
Thanks McFarland! :D I hope so!
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While I appreciate the information from John, I'm not so sure I can swallow it hook line and sinker. While I do not understand the technicalities of Goatboy's example, I believe there is something to his theory.
I know that the WSM is rigged. There is no explicit cheating, but the events are all set up in the hopes that a specific athlete will win. That athlete usually does.
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What did "hearing it" from your colleagues consist of? What were their arguments as to why he shouldn't have been placed first? Were there particular judges that had been rubbed the wrong way by Shawn?
Many of the judges felt that Shawn was dwarfed by Dorians size. I felt that Shawn had the greater detail and balance.
Major disagreement , but that's ok.
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I certainly don't detect one; he sounds as straight up as one could so far, IMO. But this is great...I'm enjoying his candor. Let's see what other insight we can gain from him. John thanks for this opportunity so far.
It's my pleasure. As I've said, I'm not here to bash or glorify. just give honest information.
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No offense to John, but to what purpose does any of this serve? Would anyone one here really expect him to come out and say that a show was fixed? Would it even last on this board. I don't fucking care if it's the IFBB the NPC, NABBA or PDI, there is no room for fixing shows. I can say on record that I have personally kown judges in the NPC, guys that I know, who have placed guys low because of their dislike for them and it goes on all the time. I know it to be true because I have heard it with my own ears so this much I stand by and always will. For someone to diet for months and have this kind of shit go on even once is intolerable, but unfortunatley it happens.
I really have to tell you, and you may not believe me, but if I knew a contest was being fixed or was fixed , I would have raised holy hell and wouldn't have cared if I was thrown out on my ass.
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http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=177274.0
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I dunno wolfie. My first show the head judge told all the girls "we aren't looking for muscle here, don't be up there flexing cuz we aren't looking for that". Majority of the girls went on stage trying to make themselves look "softer" and who ends up winning not only my class but the whole show? The one girl who was up there standing hard and flexed. The following show (2 months later, same place...almost all the same judges) not a word was said about looking for muscle or not looking for muscle. No that I was in my best shape (cuz I know I wasn't) but I definitely was up there standing hard and flexed (because that's what they chose for the look 2 months prior) and what do they pic? A beach bunny girl. Someone who looked like she never stepped in a gym and just had a nice body. All the bottom girls...myself included were harder. I went to get my scores and was told by the head judge that I was too big and my structure would be better suited in bbing. (Which is what I am now doing)
What gives? ???
Here's the bottom line. Many judges are so confused where women are concerned that they find it almost impossible to evaluate and place the women.I know I had a hard time myself and I came with alot of experience.
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Works for me, dear. :) You're gonna like bodybuilding.
epic testosterone boosted nymphomaniac cheri lane
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Yes it just happens YOU ONLY pay attention to the things that do ;) amd if you think Yates should have lost in 1995 you haven't the slightest comprehension of competitive bodybuilding .
i take that as a no. ;D
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lonewolf,
I'm just curious. How many, if any, of the judges that you worked with were gay? Be honest. However, I would understand if you didn't want to comment.
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I really have to tell you, and you may not believe me, but if I knew a contest was being fixed or was fixed , I would have raised holy hell and wouldn't have cared if I was thrown out on my ass.
I believe you, but it would not have gotten you anywhere or resolved any thing. :(
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epic testosterone boosted nymphomaniac cheri lane
???
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I really have to tell you, and you may not believe me, but if I knew a contest was being fixed or was fixed , I would have raised holy hell and wouldn't have cared if I was thrown out on my ass.
Exactly the reason why you don't know anything about this stuff. You're not the type of person they want to keep in the loop. Too honest. What a remarkably repulsive character trait!
As interesting as it is to have you posting I think that most are quickly going to come to the realisation that you're not going to provide the smoking gun they are hoping for. I hope that at some stage we can convince you to actually put forth your opinion on show placings that you were not present for.
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lonewolf,
I'm just curious. How many, if any, of the judges that you worked with were gay? Be honest. However, I would understand if you didn't want to comment.
interested? ::)
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Exactly the reason why you don't know anything about this stuff. You're not the type of person they want to keep in the loop. Too honest. What a remarkably repulsive character trait!
As interesting as it is to have you posting I think that most are quickly going to come to the realisation that you're not going to provide the smoking gun they are hoping for. I hope that at some stage we can convince you to actually put forth your opinion on show placings that you were not present for.
I don't know about that . I was there for 25 years. I got to know everyone that there was to know. I'm certainly not saying I liked everyone. Some people were great others were quite self centered. I woiuld be glad to give you my opinion on some show placings if I feel I could give you an honest assessment.