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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Milos_Sarcev on October 24, 2007, 10:40:10 AM
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As much as I know that I will be criticized again - I calculated PROS and CONS and decided to post this ANYWAY...
I would like to emphasize that I AM NOT TRYING to create the problem...instead I am trying to find a solution for everlasting problem we are all facing for numerous years. Subjectivity as a nature of judging IFBB events (bodybuilding, fitness and figure).
I know that many IFBB officials and athletes are reading this board so I am sure this will reach ALL THE PARTIES in no time...
Well, I am talking about SUBJECTIVITY as a nature of judging our bodybuilding shows...and while we can't measure, time or knockout anyone - we can certainly defeat our competitors IF somebody clarifies the judging criteria...and defines what is GOOD, BETTER...and/or THE BEST.
If competitors AND JUDGES would know what we all really want (we - as bodybuilding community) - maybe we could actually agree on something...that something being - judging!
After all competitors will know HOW TO PREPARE BETTER, judges would know how to judge, fans would be less angry or confused ???...or rather shocked with the results and some winners would possibly be at least somewhat ashamed [ accepting somebody's else title (money, glory...etc)...and I would not face another suspension ...or be told to - shut up..
Anyway, for years now we are dealing with inconsistent results and waiting for a changes...and those changes never came...Actually - things are getting worse and certainly not better and that's why I think it is time to speak up.
Did you ever wonder how judges really judge the show?
Do you think they have some point system? Some percentages(?), certain things that they are looking for (?), certain things they penalize or award athletes for (?)...Real MEASURABLE criteria?
Simply - they don't!
Judgment is given purely on subjective opinion and that could be PERSONAL PREFERENCE of the judge who is entitled to his own subjective opinion...
Well, in my opinion - judging should consider:
1- SHAPE, BALANCE, AESTHETICS, SYMMETRY, EXTREME V-TAPER, FLAT AND DEEP ABS, BEAUTY OF PHYSIQUE, HEALTHY SKIN...AND HEALTHY OVERALL APPEARANCE...as ONE ASPECT OF JUDGING
2- CONDITIONING, MUSCULARITY, EXTREME LEAN LOOK, DRYNESS, SEPARATION, STRIATIONS, TIE-INS, "GRAINY-NESS", "HARDNESS", TIGHT SKIN, "SHREDDED-NESS"...and other EXTREMES of similar nature...
But, here I would also consider muscle Glycogen storage - and FULLNESS as conditioning part of judging rather than MUSCLE MASS ASPECT of judging...
3- MUSCLE MASS, THICKNESS, WIDTH, ROUND MUSCLE BELLIES (could be considered in aspect #1 as well...)...and other extremes of similar nature...
4- PRESENTATION, POSING, ABILITY TO SHOW PHYSIQUE THE WAY IT SUPPOSE TO LOOK (not leaving it up for imagination of others to THINK what certain physique could look like IF presented correctly...), MISTAKE FREE POSING (#1- many competitors forget to squeeze certain muscles...and more often than not - judges would just go with: "well, if Jay squeezed his legs on Friday during the prejudging - he would have looked better so I would give him this pose considering that I know what his legs and physique looks like IF he posed correctly, #2 - many competitors let their "pregnancy show"...and that's a no-no, #3 - also many fail to find THE BEST WAY to do certain poses...etc...etc...), STAGE PRESENCE (standing in line up PERFECTLY...AT ALL TIMES), HITTING EVERY POSE WITH CONFIDENCE AND AUTHORITY, CHOREOGRAPHING ROUTINES with perfect transitions, SHOWING PHYSIQUE TO EMPHASIZE THE STRENGTH OF SOMEONES PHYSIQUE (and not the weaknesses...Many fail to realize that POSING ROUND is not being judged for actual posing or movement...Fat, out of shape ballet artist or out of shape professional dancer should not win the posing round by virtue of his posing skills...Posing round is PHYSIQUE ROUND where athletes could/should show their strengths USING POSES OTHER THAN MANDATORIES that present their physiques in that "special light" bodybuilders want to be known for...So, aesthetic guy could emphasize beauty of his physique, aesthetic look, perfect shape, symmetry and balance by doing EXACT POSES to exemplify WHAT HIS ATTRIBUTES ARE...
Conditioned guy on another hand could present his shredded physique by doing poses to show his shredded muscles (or maybe hide cellulite?)...and muscular guy should do as many muscular posses...thick guy presenting his thickness, wide guy his width...V-tapered guy his extreme V-taper...etc...etc
If someone succeeds in presentation of his strengths THAN AND ONLY THAN we could say OK - he should have place higher as he is: THIS (aesthetic, balanced, symmetrical...) or THAT (conditioned, more muscular, bigger, thicker, wider...)...
But, many times fans go with picture of their favorite champion AS THEY REMEMBER HIM from before - while only shadow of that physique is being displayed on the stage at the moment - yet "shadow" gets the same amount of points as "sentimental judgment" or "paid dues" treatment from the judges that ALSO consider what once was or what could have been (if in shape)...
WE NEED TO START JUDGING PHYSIQUES ON THE DAY OF THE CONTEST REGARDLESS OF NAMES, PREVIOUS OUTINGS...ETC...POLITICS ...
I am in a hurry actually so maybe I am rushing this a bit...but I will get back to make some points...or rather - maybe WE CAN ALL START NEW THREAD ABOUT JUDGING - and NOT to argue with judges and federation...Not to criticize but rather to START WORKING ON HELPING OUR OFFICIALS FINDING THE BEST WAY TO JUDGE...
To take that "subjectivity OUT" or at least reduce it to minimum...so we (ALL OF US WHO LOVE SPORT OF BODYBUILDING, ATHLETES AS WELL AS FANS) could have clear idea WHY some guy managed to place ahead of others...
Judges should be able to explain WHY they saw Jay superior to OTHERS at 2007 Mr. Olympia...(just as one of numerous examples).
Did they saw him better in:
1- SHAPE, BALANCE, AESTHETICS, SYMMETRY, EXTREME V-TAPER, FLAT AND DEEP ABS, BEAUTY OF PHYSIQUE, HEALTHY SKIN...AND HEALTHY OVERALL APPEARANCE...department?
I don't think so...as I see many beating Jay in this aspect of judging.
2- CONDITIONING, MUSCULARITY, EXTREME LEAN LOOK, DRYNESS, SEPARATION, STRIATIONS, TIE-INS, "GRAINY-NESS", HARDNESS, TIGHT SKIN, SHREDDED-NESS...and other EXTREMES of similar nature...
But, here I would also consider muscle Glycogen storage - and FULLNESS as conditioning part of judging rather than MUSCLE MASS ASPECT of judging...
I don't think so - AGAIN...
3- MUSCLE MASS, THICKNESS, WIDTH, ROUND MUSCLE BELLIES (could be considered in aspect #1 as well...)...and other extremes of similar nature...
Maybe in this one? So this is "holly grail" of bodybuilding - BIGGER IS BETTER AND NOTHING ELSE MATTERS?
4- PRESENTATION, POSING, ABILITY TO SHOW PHYSIQUE THE WAY IT SUPPOSE TO LOOK
Again...NOT the case (in my book)...
So, let's help our judges...which will ultimately help our sport.
Give your point of view...and we could at least start SOLVING THE PROBLEM - very easily...
And let's keep it NICE and CIVIL..without unnecessary attacks...
Again - I am looking for SOLUTION and not the ARGUMENT... and I hope we all do?
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Bodybuilding judging is subjective & not comparable to other forms of competitive judgment. For all the talk that bodybuilding is a sport, or that it's an art, or whatever, more than anything IFBB competitive bodybuilding is a club that gives monetary (& other) awards to some of its members who participate. By club, I mean the members who qualify as pros (& for the men, it's a very small group of people considering the widespread desire to "join" by going pro through the NPC) have to accept the control of the ownership. The ownership's best interests are the influences behind the stated ones of muscularity, presentation & symmetry.
Since the rule of the judges is final (with a rare exception like Jay's successful legal challenge to his disqualification several years' back), you can look at the actual rulings to see what criteria appear to be at work. But what really determines the placings will probably never be known outside of the very small circle of people who control them. Who looks the best on a magazine cover, and how many copies will "sell through" (meaning how many copies have to be on the shelf in order to sell one copy)? That must also be part of the decision about who ultimately wins & loses a show like the Arnold or the Olympia.
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I think judging should be done by athlets...
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I don't think that the judging criteria per se is the problem.
IMO, in say 8 from 10 contests the best physique wins out clearly during prejudging.
I believe that the problem with the judging as a whole is that that there is no consistant system in judging the posing round. Too much is left to the interpretation of the rules by individual judges.. I think that the judging for the posing round should be modified to a bb.com type of fans choice award, soley for the entertainment value.
In replacement of judging the posing round, I beleive that the powers that be should do another pre-judging round comparing the top six against each other and making sure that everybody is fairly compared.
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IMO, in say 8 from 10 contests the best physique wins out clearly during prejudging.
I believe that the problem with the judging as a whole is that that there is no consistant system in judging the posing round. Too much is left to the interpretation of the rules by individual judges.. I think that the judging for the posing round should be modified to a bb.com type of fans choice award, soley for the entertainment value.
In replacement of judging the posing round, I beleive that the powers that be should do another pre-judging round comparing the top six against each other and making sure that everybody is fairly compared.
99% of the time the contest is won in the prejudging its always been the meat & potatoes of the whole contest very rarely does the outcome get decided in the posing rounds , 2001 Olympia was an example of this and the posing rounds are like all other rounds , a physique round you'll notice that the best posers very rarely win the posing rounds and they do sorta have another ' prejudging ' in the posing rounds the posedown where they guys stand side by side and show off their best poses etc
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I think judging should be done by athlets...
I say we have two electoral bodies of judges one voted by the athletes themselves
the other voted on by IFBB
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99% of the time the contest is won in the prejudging its always been the meat & potatoes of the whole contest very rarely does the outcome get decided in the posing rounds , 2001 Olympia was an example of this and the posing rounds are like all other rounds , a physique round you'll notice that the best posers very rarely win the posing rounds and they do sorta have another ' prejudging ' in the posing rounds the posedown where they guys stand side by side and show off their best poses etc
That's my point ND, close competitions such as the recent O shouldn't come down to judging the posing round, its too open to interpretation.. Scrap the judging points given in the freeposing round and place more emphasis in the second prejudging, where there the physiques can be more closely scrutinized ie first against second, second against third and so on.
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Bob....Ron...any comments?
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Great job Milos ! :D
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Bob....Ron...any comments?
I think you make some good pts here Milos.
I would like to see a set of rules that does NOT involve trying to decide a contest via some free for all called a posedown. I like the old AAU/ Mr America Ht classes as well.
Plus, I would love to see the rulebook updated to reflect the actual drugs allowed, not just a PR sheet of banned substances. I see no problems with basic roids and related stuff as it has always been a part of bodybuilding at the top shows. I cringe when I read that lame rule book that lists all the banned stuff, they have no intention of ever banning.
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Bob....Ron...any comments?
No comments because they agre with you.
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That's my point ND, close competitions such as the recent O shouldn't come down to judging the posing round, its too open to interpretation.. Scrap the judging points given in the freeposing round and place more emphasis in the second prejudging, where there the physiques can be more closely scrutinized ie first against second, second against third and so on.
I guess that with this past Olympia if a contest is close enough they can use the posing round to decide the final outcome like they did in 2001 , like I said 99% of the time the contest is decided in the pre-judging but the other two rounds are for a last look just in case something dramatic happened of if they missed something in the prejudging and this can sway things one way or the other again if its very close to begin with.
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You should definitely be marked down if you look like you are about to drop a baby.
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I think judging should be done by athlets...
Hogwash.....just because someone enters a bodybuilding contest/competition/show/pageant...that does not make him/her an athlete. Thank you for playing....
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some good points milos
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term limits, term limits, term limits
athletic organizations should not have lifetime positions
if executives, promoters, and judges knew that they were only going to have the position for a year or two, they are more likely to do what is best for the sport and the athletes. Instead they do what is best for the company and themselves.
the longest serving people in any sports organization should be the clerical staff.
but the IFBB and the NPC are not volunteer athletic organizations. they are privately held companies.
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Genreally, you have good points. Although I am not a trained person as to what constitutes someone beating someone else at a contest. I have my opinions, wheereas a like the overall physique vs. symmetry vs. conditioning vs. muscularity.
And like the judges, us in the press pits, when we shoot, each have our own opinions as to who should win and place in the top ten, etc. We like to do that in each contest, and beleive it or not, get 5 of us together, and we usually have different opinions.
I remember at one show all five of us had different results for the top six. So yes, it is a subject of opinion sometimes. Which is way they take away the top 2 and bottom 2 when judging. By the way, in terms of our private contest on who will win the Swami head between Lonnie Teper and Isaac Hinds and myself, I am proud to say it will be mine at the end of the year in terms of predictions. Isaac doesn't have it, and LT... well... he miscalculated just a bit.
Probably the main thing would be nice is to see different judges. Like Dorian Yates was judging the Olympia. A few different judges per show is nice.
At the local NPC level, just this weekend, we had Gina Alliotti and Zhanna Rhotar judging, as well as others. It was nice to see.
I suggest that you becoming serious about becoming a judge, and see if you can judge a local NPC show, and go from there.
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term limits, term limits, term limits
athletic organizations should not have lifetime positions
if executives, promoters, and judges knew that they were only going to have the position for a year or two, they are more likely to do what is best for the sport and the athletes. Instead they do what is best for the company and themselves.
the longest serving people in any sports organization should be the clerical staff.
but the IFBB and the NPC are not volunteer athletic organizations. they are privately held companies.
Stupidest post of the month goes to Mr. Fogarty.
It's hard enough finding promoters and judges - you want to impose term limits? ::)
Have you tried promoting a show?
Judging is a thankless job and people are always quick to criticize but few step up and try judging themselves.
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Proof positive that the manic phases of bi-polar disorder are the most dangerous. No clear thinking human would have taken the time to post that.
Many people are ashamed to admit their need for medication.
Milos, please be man enough to admit you have a problem, and get this disease treated.
-TPM
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Genreally, you have good points. Although I am not a trained person as to what constitutes someone beating someone else at a contest. I have my opinions, wheereas a like the overall physique vs. symmetry vs. conditioning vs. muscularity.
And like the judges, us in the press pits, when we shoot, each have our own opinions as to who should win and place in the top ten, etc. We like to do that in each contest, and beleive it or not, get 5 of us together, and we usually have different opinions.
I remember at one show all five of us had different results for the top six. So yes, it is a subject of opinion sometimes. Which is way they take away the top 2 and bottom 2 when judging.
Probably the main thing would be nice is to see different judges. Like Dorian Yates was judging the Olympia. A few different judges per show is nice.
At the local NPC level, just this weekend, we had Gina Allioto and Zhanna Rhotar judging, as well as others. It was nice to see.
I suggest that you becoming serious about becoming a judge, and see if you can judge a local NPC show, and go from there.
I think Milos did judged in 2002 or 2003 at the IFBB Holland show so hi knows how to judge.
Personally I would like to ask tow of the judges from the Mr.O (with out giving there name to the public) that how was the person that dinaid there request for calling out Jay and Woolf. Than make a official complain to the president of the IFBB.
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It's hard enough finding promoters and judges - you want to impose term limits? ::)
It's hard to find people because so many people have been turned off by all the politics. The politics are so bad because of the lifetime appointments.
There are other promoters, running shows in NABBA, Musclemania, PDI. But if you don't pay the outrageous sanction fees, your athletes get blacklisted.
Long ago, the AAU was a real volunteer athletic organization. the AAU district and national chairmen had fixed terms. Promoters had to be awarded the contests every year. But promoting wasn't a business. They had full time jobs and held a contest on the side. Contests took a lot of work, so it was unlikely that someone could do it year after year. Contests weren't suppose to be money making ventures. You rented a high school auditorium or theater and any profit went back to the AAU.
Now, the NPC is a privately held business. For most of the promoters, that's their full time job. That's fine, but without any checks or balances, the people in power are going to look out for their best interests first. That's not always the same as what's in the best interests of the athletes or fans.
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If we can agree about what constitutes an ideal physique for both men and women then we will be able to approach judging competitors better. We also have to define just what bodybuilding is and how to actually judge physiques. The IFBB system is not the best method to judge bodybuilders.
Remember when Ben told us bodybuilding would be accepted in the Olympic Games? Nice try but it never happened. Ben so wanted this to happen that he structured the judging to mimic what happens in other sports. Thus, the rounds system evolved and it has been woe to bodybuilding ever since. Ben insisted each round should be scored. This led to all manner of nonsense over the years. No matter, Ben came up with a way to correct errant scores. Judge the top guys during a posedown!
Bodybuilding judging evolved in London, England during the NABBA Mr Universe era. It also evolved in the AAU Mr America contest. Those were the two most prestigious contests up until the Mr Olympia was created in 1965. The AAU contest became controversial because there seemed to be racial requirements and no black bodybuilder won until 1970. Not even the great Sergio Oliva could win that show. Mr America had to represent the epitome of American manhood so there was an interview component and a sports requirement. This judging process didn't impact on the other bodybuilding organizations.
What happened in England came to be the best method to judge bodybuilders. That contest became very popular and it required some method to split the bodybuilders into groups to facilitate judging so many of them. Thus, the height classes were introduced. This was just a way to accommodate many bodybuilders. There was still an overall comparison between the class winners. It was possible to judge men of different heights.
The NABBA system led to the use of many judges. Anyone who has competed in local contests knows how easy it is to stack judges and show favouritism. In the old days they selected gym owners to judge and that was about as good as it got for spreading the responsibility for judging around. NABBA saw the problem and increased the number of judges to something between 11 and 15 judges. Having more judges eliminates biases and distortions. In the IFBB system they have 7 judges. Then they discard the highest and lowest score for each competitor.That means only 5 judges actually score the contest and this clearly is not enough for important national and international contests. I would like to see the Mr Olympia judged by 21 judges.
If we define bodybuilding to be the presentation of the physique both standing relaxed and posing then we can make criterion to separate the bodybuilders. As everyone knows no one stands relaxed any more. That section of a contest was simply a way to eliminate contestants and not actually score them. Oh, you can award points, etc., but they shouldn't be counted in the overall placings. The idea is to select the best bodybuilders on the day. The best bodybuilder is the one who looks the best both standing around and then posing. The actual posing routine is but a means to demonstrate the physique and should not be scored inself. Oh, a special award for the best poser can be awarded but that ability is not what bodybuilding is about. Posing is important because if you cannot present yourself properly you are unlikely to be seen as the best there.
Okay, we use various lineups to get the top 6 bodybuilders to compare. We could make it the top 10. When those are selected the real judging takes place and that includes watching them stand relaxed, posing routine, and then comparisons. Judges should be able to call out anyone they want to see again and again. This process continues until every judge is satisfied he has separated the competitors. Once the judging is completed there is no further judging. No judge can change his mind. No judging should occur after they can talk among themselves which includes discussions with officials. Posedowns and other displays can occur but they do not count in the scoring. So there is only one score and that is after the finals are judged. The finals are when the top 6 or 10 competitors are judged. There are no rounds scored.
Let's talk about criteria. Well, since bodybuilding is about building up the muscles then the most important factor is muscle size. The biggest bodybuilder, all else equal, should win. Related to size is proportions and balance. The competitor with all muscles large wins over another with small arms or small calves, for example. It is an easy matter to come up with ratios of muscles according to the evolution of size. A guy with 18 inch arms should have calves that are 18 inches as well. A guy with 20 inch arms should have 19 inch calves to be equally proportional.
As well as size and proportions we consider appearance. The shape of muscles and the definition is important. We have terms like symmetry that are not always clearly understood. Symmetry can mean aesthetics and not only having one side the same as the other. Dorian with a torn biceps clearly suffered some symmetry loss.
It would be possible to weigh various factors. In the end you have the overall appearance of competitors and this ends up being the most important factor. This is where conditioning has come to be so important and is now used to separate the competitors. We then have problems because we have to have limits regarding the various components of judging. Can a small, conditioned guy beat a larger but smooth competitor? In modern professional contests the size differences are not so great and so conditioning becomes the factor that separates the bodybuilders. Should this be so is what must be sorted out by judging committees.
Another possible way to judge contests is to have a separate panel looking at photographs. This can be done by taking standardized photos and making all competitors the same size. This panel then judges everyone by what is seen in the photos. There could also be videos to assess the posing routine and overall appearance. This panel could count for perhaps 40% of the final scores. If we had something like this it might eliminate the aftermath where so many argue about who should have won. This would be a step towards having somewhat more objective judging.
The process of judging has been discussed and it should be done so that it is both fair and seen to be fair. There should be no bias either positive or negative. The selection of judges should be done by a committee that is open and responsible. Judges should be trained and not brainwashed. The actual placement of judges should be something to consider. The idea that judges sit close to the stage is something that should be reviewed. It is usually done because you can't have other people blocking the view of the competitors. Should judges be able to mix with the competitors as they prepare for competition? It might be that judges get a better view if they are not so close to the stage and looking up at competitors. Perhaps they should be at waist level to the bodybuilders to best view them properly. You can do this in a venue with seats that slope towards the stage.
The call outs are important and who picks who is called out is crucial. Should it be the responsibility of the chairman of judges or the head judge or a random selection of individual judges or a consensus? There should be no way that judges can know what the head judge thinks about who are the best. Clearly that doesn't happen now. Everyone knows exactly what the head judge thinks and that colours all modern contests. This is the single factor that has to change to make sure contests are seen to be honest and fair.
The judges results should be published after the awards are presented. It is possible to do this because we have done this in the past. Every judges score is there and everyone can see who voted for whom. There is no need for bodybuilders to ask where they were placed. Fans can have copies of the scores and everyone goes home informed instead of perplexed.
There is one aspect I haven't mentioned. That is faults and blemishes that detract from the physique. Important among these are gynocomastia, tattoos, stretch marks and blemishes. Whatever diminishes the physique should lower the score of competitors. Just how much is what has to be decided. Should a Mr anything have breasts? That is something that has been tolerated over the years but something that shouldn't be visible on men.
Should synthetic ways of augmenting the physique be tolerated? This is crucial regarding the practice of site injections of various agents to increase girth. There should be no inserts allowed in bodybuilding contests because that goes totally against the very core of what bodybuilding is all about. You train to build up your muscles, you do not see your plastic surgeon!
There is a huge problem regarding women. Breast augmentation is usually allowed because most females lose breast size when dieting for contests. The practice of allowing breast inserts probably has led to distortions in what we see today.
Ah, the drug issue. Sweep it under the carpet or enforce strict rules against any illegal substances as determined by the Olympic committee and other sporting organizations? If bodybuilding is about training and increasing muscle mass in the gym then there should be no cheating allowed via drugs and other chemicals. Without strict testing there can be no valid bodybuilding contests. There should be off-season testing and disqualification for life for cheaters. There should be no exceptions.
I have no doubt many of us could work together to come up with a better way to judge contests than what the IFBB does now. It would be a simple matter to assemble a super committee and form a new judging method complete with criteria, rules and processes.
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It's hard to find people because so many people have been turned off by all the politics. The politics are so bad because of the lifetime appointments.
There are other promoters, running shows in NABBA, Musclemania, PDI. But if you don't pay the outrageous sanction fees, your athletes get blacklisted.
Long ago, the AAU was a real volunteer athletic organization. the AAU district and national chairmen had fixed terms. Promoters had to be awarded the contests every year. But promoting wasn't a business. They had full time jobs and held a contest on the side. Contests took a lot of work, so it was unlikely that someone could do it year after year. Contests weren't suppose to be money making ventures. You rented a high school auditorium or theater and any profit went back to the AAU.
Now, the NPC is a privately held business. For most of the promoters, that's their full time job. That's fine, but without any checks or balances, the people in power are going to look out for their best interests first. That's not always the same as what's in the best interests of the athletes or fans.
Let's continue to live in the past - that's a great idea. ::) You're really going to reference the PDI as a defense? HAHA
For most IFBB/NPC promoters it is NOT their full-time job.
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I remember at one show all five of us had different results for the top six. So yes, it is a subject of opinion sometimes. Which is way they take away the top 2 and bottom 2 when judging. By the way, in terms of our private contest on who will win the Swami head between Lonnie Teper and Isaac Hinds and myself, I am proud to say it will be mine at the end of the year in terms of predictions. Isaac doesn't have it, and LT... well... he miscalculated just a bit.
Yeah Ron, You have the "swami head". Oh brother, just like you had Jay winning and when asked why your response was, "I just had a feeling."
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Ron said even the photographers at the Olympia had various opinions. That usually means the contest was close. That is why you need more judges and 7 is nowhere near enough.
Maybe Milos and I can get together and come up with a new judging method and process? I came up with such a method years ago for an organization where I was the chairman of the judging committee. While in that position I came to see how difficult it was to find good, independent judges. Some were okay for a couple of hours but faded as the day went on. Others showed bias in favour of partners. It does take an intelligent person to properly judge contests because the criterion is complex. While everyone has an opinion, not everyone can discriminate accurately while applying many factors in the process. In other words, some people are better judges than others. When we can respect the judges will be the day that fair contests happen.
The trouble is the IFBB is an assembly of mostly appointed individuals who keep their positions without much in the way of responsibility for what they do. Where is the accountability? There is hardly any avenue to change the judging system without joining the IFBB and being elected to the executive. They still appoint area vice-presidents who don't get elected. Seems to me we are all wasting our time talking about judging.
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Ron said even the photographers at the Olympia had various opinions. That usually means the contest was close. That is why you need more judges and 7 is nowhere near enough.
Maybe Milos and I can get together and come up with a new judging method and process? I came up with such a method years ago for an organization where I was the chairman of the judging committee. While in that position I came to see how difficult it was to find good, independent judges. Some were okay for a couple of hours but faded as the day went on. Others showed bias in favour of partners. It does take an intelligent person to properly judge contests because the criterion is complex. While everyone has an opinion, not everyone can discriminate accurately while applying many factors in the process. In other words, some people are better judges than others. When we can respect the judges will be the day that fair contests happen.
The trouble is the IFBB is an assembly of mostly appointed individuals who keep their positions without much in the way of responsibility for what they do. Where is the accountability? There is hardly any avenue to change the judging system without joining the IFBB and being elected to the executive. They still appoint area vice-presidents who don't get elected. Seems to me we are all wasting our time talking about judging.
You're right...7 judges isn't enough.....that's why 13 were used at the Olympia.
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It would help if all the judges scores were published at the end of the show.
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Results...
http://www.ifbbpro.com/results/2007-olympia/
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Since Ron judged the Mr.Getbig, I wouldn't take his opinion on judging ! ;D
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You're right...7 judges isn't enough.....that's why 13 were used at the Olympia.
actually
http://www.ifbbpro.com/results/2007-olympia/ shows there were 11 for each round.
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actually
http://www.ifbbpro.com/results/2007-olympia/ shows there were 11 for each round.
I'm gonna guess there were 13 judges, and the results posted, are the final numbers after the high & low were thrown out. ;)
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actually
http://www.ifbbpro.com/results/2007-olympia/ shows there were 11 for each round.
11...my bad.
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Like I was sayin'... there are 11 judges. :D
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are the final numbers after the high & low were thrown out. ;)
three high and three low were tossed out. the middle 5 were used to calculate the final score
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Thanks... cool. :)
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You're right...7 judges isn't enough.....that's why 13 were used at the Olympia.
Maybe instead of paying for 13, the IFBB should save their money and just buy glasses for the first seven instead. :-\
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I've thought about the way they don't count the highest and lowest scores for each competitor. That is just another way to guarantee consensus. If all judges are competent, independent, and unbiased then why shouldn't all votes count? The old days of getting gym owners to judge is thankfully over.
Suppose you were judging the last Mr Olympia and thought that Dennis Wolf was 1st. Would you place him there knowing your vote wouldn't count if you were the only one placing him first?
Many here are cynical about the IFBB judging system. Is there any way in hell that Manion is going to change the rules just because some point out a better way of doing things? I doubt it. We can be certain it will be business as usual.
Oh, I forgot, we can count on the athletes rep to make the system better. You really have to love the IFBB. They thought of everything.
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Great job Milos ! :D
I agree! Milos is the cure for BB.
Lately his athletes guts have shrunken too!
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I've thought about the way they don't count the highest and lowest scores for each competitor. That is just another way to guarantee consensus. If all judges are competent, independent, and unbiased then why shouldn't all votes count? The old days of getting gym owners to judge is thankfully over.
Suppose you were judging the last Mr Olympia and thought that Dennis Wolf was 1st. Would you place him there knowing your vote wouldn't count if you were the only one placing him first?
Many here are cynical about the IFBB judging system. Is there any way in hell that Manion is going to change the rules just because some point out a better way of doing things? I doubt it. We can be certain it will be business as usual.
Oh, I forgot, we can count on the athletes rep to make the system better. You really have to love the IFBB. They thought of everything.
You wouldn't know if you were the only one scoring him first, or 1 of 11, or 1 of 3, etc. at that point and time....yes, consensus....an average or what the judges thought. Eliminates a biased person, or one with an agenda.
I've already made suggestions for a better system, starting with making changes to the judging rounds....more are coming. Change doesn't happen overnight...if a new system is to be used, it needs to make sense and be better than the old one...
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Thanks... cool. :)
I was about to say, damn, you're probably not gonna catch Tim slipping up on here.
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Before the placings system there used to be a points system back in the old days. There were seven judges. 100 points were possible in each round and 7 possible in the posedown. Boyer Coe won the World Cup back in 81 with a perfect score of 307. The placings system in the IFBB came about the same time the NPC originated. Correct me if I'm wrong with the timeframe, Bob.
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You wouldn't know if you were the only one scoring him first, or 1 of 11, or 1 of 3, etc. at that point and time....yes, consensus....an average or what the judges thought. Eliminates a biased person, or one with an agenda.
I've already made suggestions for a better system, starting with making changes to the judging rounds....more are coming. Change doesn't happen overnight...if a new system is to be used, it needs to make sense and be better than the old one...
the idea of eliminating the extreme highs and lows (top and bottom scores ) is the best idea...
in a judging panel, conspiracy is always mentioned, but in a case where 6 scores are thrown out, theres very little chance that anyone will try to bribe a judge or carry out an agenda.
if you were to bribe a judge or two, you wouldn't even know if their scores count or not in the end, but in the case that they do get bribed, this elimination of the highest highs and lowest lows ensures a much more unbiased outcome, and more "filtered" result.
i like it.
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I think you're about right with that timeframe...unfortunatel y, the points system didn't work either and we had shows like the NOC where Danny Padila LOST with a perfect score..!
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Before the placings system there used to be a points system back in the old days. There were seven judges. 100 points were possible in each round and 7 possible in the posedown. Boyer Coe won the World Cup back in 81 with a perfect score of 307. The placings system in the IFBB came about the same time the NPC originated. Correct me if I'm wrong with the timeframe, Bob.
BTW...you wouldn't happen to be Dave Hawk or Marty Vranicar would you?
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Nah. Mr Continental USA 1985, lightweight... Chuck Sanow won the overall.
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Anyone knows that the results of the first 2 rounds where very important for the whole competition.
So, there are 11 Judges....9 from the US and 2 from Britain judging the first 2 rounds. The message is very clear, "when you are a Bodybuilder east of London you`re not in a good postion".
Tell me what will happen, when the next Mr. Olympia will be judged by 1 judge from the US, 1 from Britain, and 9 from the rest of the world ? (i know it never gonna happen...).
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What is Round 3 REALLY judged on? Seems to be a big mystery. How do you judge a competitor from memory against all the other athletes? Doesn't make sense. Is this on the table for change any time soon? Was there an IFBB athlete with the athlete rep meeting this year at the Olympia?
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Shouldn't Judges be comprised of all the heads of the IFBB around the world?
the head judge from Canadian Nationals.
an Australian Judge, or head of IFBB down there...
French.
German...
etc.
kind of sucks when the federation is the INTERNATIONAL federation.....IFBB
and theres only one outsider in a group of american judges.
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Great post Milos and SO true. It doesn't matter how many judges are judging, they just have to follow set guidelines. I think politics and money rule these days as with every other sport. The panel should consist of respected ex pros NOT a line up of guys who have never lifted a weight in their life - That way, they can respect the athletes and judge accordingly.
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Should all MLB umpires be ex pro baseball players? All NFL refs need to be ex pro football players? If an official can make an accurate calls, they do their job. If they can't, they can no longer officiate.
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What if the top 10 physiques were filmed in HD quality 1080p so after PJ the judges could watch it before making their decision for the best at PJ? 8) Random thought
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Anyone knows that the results of the first 2 rounds where very important for the whole competition.
So, there are 11 Judges....9 from the US and 2 from Britain judging the first 2 rounds. The message is very clear, "when you are a Bodybuilder east of London you`re not in a good postion".
Tell me what will happen, when the next Mr. Olympia will be judged by 1 judge from the US, 1 from Britain, and 9 from the rest of the world ? (i know it never gonna happen...).
So, who do you believe was wronged and placed poorly that was "east of London"?
What would happen is Paco Batista would be Mr. Olympia...! ;D
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So, who do you believe was wronged and placed poorly that was "east of London"?
What would happen is Paco Batista would be Mr. Olympia...! ;D
Hmmmmmm, Maybe the response will include the name WOLFE !! ::)
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Hmmmmmm, Maybe the response will include the name WOLFE !! ::)
Gimme a break, he was tied for 16th last year...5th this year. I would have personally had him in 4th ahead of Ronnie...but thats about it. I'm a big Wolf fan and believe with one more year of improvements, he'll be contending for th title.
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Gimme a break, he was tied for 16th last year...5th this year. I would have personally had him in 4th ahead of Ronnie...but thats about it. I'm a big Wolf fan and believe with one more year of improvements, he'll be contending for th title.
;D ;D ;D That was one funny post, well done ::)
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Gimme a break, he was tied for 16th last year...5th this year. I would have personally had him in 4th ahead of Ronnie...but thats about it. I'm a big Wolf fan and believe with one more year of improvements, he'll be contending for th title.
agreed.
16 to 4th / 5th is an amazing jump.
given the size of Vic, Jay and Dexter's overall balance top he's not a real threat just yet at the "O"
where do you think he will place this upcoming ARNOLD CLASSIC, should he choose to do it?
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agreed.
16 to 4th / 5th is an amazing jump.
given the size of Vic, Jay and Dexter's overall balance top he's not a real threat just yet at the "O"
where do you think he will place this upcoming ARNOLD CLASSIC, should he choose to do it?
IF he does it, he should walk it - He should lie low and only do the 'O' next year though to create some drama and buzz ....
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Gimme a break, he was tied for 16th last year...5th this year. I would have personally had him in 4th ahead of Ronnie...but thats about it. I'm a big Wolf fan and believe with one more year of improvements, he'll be contending for th title.
Great post ! this echo's my sentiments exactly ! I mean everybody is excited about Wolf and thats all good but he wasn't winning the Olympia this year , with improvements sure but he still has work to do.
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Great post ! this echo's my sentiments exactly ! I mean everybody is excited about Wolf and thats all good but he wasn't winning the Olympia this year , with improvements sure but he still has work to do.
The improvement was incredible, but the bottom line is that the top guys were off this year and thus he did fit more of the criteria than anyone else on stage. If all were judges fairly, he would have won ...
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The improvement was incredible, but the bottom line is that the top guys were off this year and thus he did fit more of the criteria than anyone else on stage. If all were judges fairly, he would have won ...
he didn't fit more of the criteria Dexter did in fact , Wolf needs improvements before he claims the top spot .
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Milos, I love your posts. But they are too damn LONG sometimes. Hell, I got limited time at work and your posts are liable to get me busted by my boss!
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This is some very intersting and mostly constructive dialogue.
However, I really wonder if the world of bodybuilding wants the pro and top amatuer contests to fully fllow and enforce all of the current judging standards and written established rules?
I believe this would include actual enforcement of the rules on banned substances, aka real drug testing.
On the one hand everyone wants fair , competent judging where the judges look at the physiques on stage in an objective ,competent manner. On the other hand NOBODY seems to care about the rules that govern how the actual physiques were developed.
This is like being very strict about making every ballpark uniform in baseball , so that every homerun goes the same minimum distance, but looking the other way about the bat the player uses and allowing everything from wood, to aluminum to tennis rackets.
Let us make sure the bodybuilders all follow the established , written rules on the subtances they use to prepare their physiques for contests. Then , we can demand the judging be fair and objective.
Overall, from the judging to what bodybuilders use, is a virtual "free for all" with no real set and enforced standard.
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Does anyone know of a contest (in any bodybuilding federation) that could be used as an example where everyone agreed that the judging was great and all judging standards could be based on that one contest from now on because the judges did such a great job? I surely can't think of one. If anyone else can, let the rest of know.
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Gimme a break, he was tied for 16th last year...5th this year. I would have personally had him in 4th ahead of Ronnie...but thats about it. I'm a big Wolf fan and believe with one more year of improvements, he'll be contending for th title.
How would you place guys at the O?
I mean if you use your judging standard without considering "political musts"?
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How would you place guys at the O?
I mean if you use your judging standard without considering "political musts"?
Milos, I am NOT trying to be a "smart ass" and have a huge amount of respect for you and your knowledge, etc.
But, I was curious if you felt that the bodybuilders should also follow the established rules of the IFBB along with the judges, to the letter? Thanks for your feedback.
I saw you guest pose a few years back in New Orleans, comming off the leg injury, you looked incredible and posed with style and grace.
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POST #1 on www.bodybuilding.com
Originally Posted by KRN-GOOKX891
if u were a judge wat would've been ur top ten?
1/2/3- Dennis Wolf
1/2/3- Victor Martinez
1/2/3- Dexter Jackson
I would really have to see them in direct comparison to be able to judge with absolute certainty - but these guys were top three
4/5 - Johnnie Jackson
4/5 - Melvin Anthony
6/7 - Gustavo Badell
6/7 - Jay Cutler
8 - Ronnie Coleman
9/10/11 - Hidetada Yamagishi
9/10/11 - Ronnie Rockel
9/10/11 - David Henry
12 - Darrem Charles
13- Silvio Samuel
etc...
And I base this placing on PHYSIQUES ONLY - not politics...And when I have a time I could elaborate how and why I placed EACH AND EVERY COMPETITOR...
POST#2
Posted by TheGame76
The only thing that really sticks out to me is Hidetatada up in 9/10/11 and Silvio all the way down in 13th. Could you please explain that one?
Yes, very much so...and please don't forget that I trained both of them for few months ON DAILY BASES and saw them pose next to each other countless number of times...
Silvio is also PHENOMENAL BODYBUILDER BY ALL MEANS and me putting him LOWER than where he placed is absolutely NOT from any vendetta (what many would think...)
I think he considerably worsened his balance - and his legs are now really overpowering his upper body in many poses...
His back is also considerably smaller and somewhat softer than earlier this year...and that could be said for the rest of his upper body as well.
Look at the photos from the Ironman, Sacramento, Arnold Classic and compare it to Europa show (which he won) and Olympia...
When he lifts his arms up (front and back double biceps pose) it is clearly visible how small is his torso in comparison to his legs...+ what is surprising - his great arms don't look to impressive once he lifts them up...
What seems to be phenomenal arm (in down position) becomes below average arm when is in double biceps pose...(Contrary to Hide's who's arms are becoming incredible...)
So :
#1 - balance issue (legs too big for his upper body)
#2 - torso quite small/ somewhat narrow
#3 - calves need much work
#4 - lifted arms - not as impressive
#5 - lat spread - not as wide
#6 - posing while improved still NOT at professional level
#7 - still making "mistakes" of letting his stomach out on stage (occasionally enough to be photographed with his stomach out.../see some comparison photos on getbig or my site...)
to name the few...
Now, Hide is not perfect either (nobody is perfect...except me - off course...but that is another story...) but he was more muscular, thicker, wider (yes wider even though Hide is not particularly wide), fuller...with better stage presence, presentation, posing...
Symmetry round:
FRONT, both sides and rear relax pose - Balance (Hide), Shape (Silvio), Conditioning (tie), Muscularity (Hide), Presentation (Hide)
Front double biceps: Hide
Rear double biceps: Hide
Front lat spread: some advantages Silvio...some Hide (we can analyze deeply)
Rear lat spread:some advantages Silvio...some Hide (we can analyze deeply)
Side chest: Hide (Silvio is good in this pose - but overall impression goes to Hide...and I am talking about EVERY ASPECT of bodybuilding I am considering when judging)
Side triceps: same as above
Abs and thighs: Silvio
Most muscular: close
Posing routine: Hide
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Mishko shouldn't complain about the judging.....
he likes placing where he has over the course of years...why change it now?
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Great post Milos and SO true. It doesn't matter how many judges are judging, they just have to follow set guidelines. I think politics and money rule these days as with every other sport. The panel should consist of respected ex pros NOT a line up of guys who have never lifted a weight in their life - That way, they can respect the athletes and judge accordingly.
Have to disagree with you on having ex pros as judges. I sat on IFBB judging panels for 25 years,and the worst judges were former champions. They had a very hard time seperating themselves and their own body types from what they were supposed to be evaluating on stage. Most of their placings were so bad they were not used again.
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Let's continue to live in the past - that's a great idea. ::) You're really going to reference the PDI as a defense? HAHA
For most IFBB/NPC promoters it is NOT their full-time job.
lift studios hugging the nuts of the Manion/weiders = great surprise!
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The more I think about it.....let's not talk about IFBB judging.
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I think judging should be done by athlets...
problem with having athletes judge is that they just vote for their friends. is dorian still a judge?
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Shawn Ray had this one pretty right way back when he and Demilia went at it.
Rotate the judges.
And more comparisons is better nonetheless.
I dunno why it didn't worked out at the Mr O, but it seemed to work just fine earlier on in the year, which was a nice victory for Cicherillo IMO, he seems to be behind getting that done.
But at the O, it was all gone.
The truth was that, while Wolf may have had some weaknesses, he totally blew Cutler off the stage, that was evident when he chased Cutler down during posedown.
Also, when you put pics side by side, properly proportions.
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does Jay believes that he deserve to be MR.O??? ???
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Shawn Ray had this one pretty right way back when he and Demilia went at it.
Rotate the judges.
And more comparisons is better nonetheless.
I dunno why it didn't worked out at the Mr O, but it seemed to work just fine earlier on in the year, which was a nice victory for Cicherillo IMO, he seems to be behind getting that done.
But at the O, it was all gone.
The truth was that, while Wolf may have had some weaknesses, he totally blew Cutler off the stage, that was evident when he chased Cutler down during posedown.
Also, when you put pics side by side, properly proportions.
It wasn't missing at the O...the only callout I wanted to see but didn't was Wolf against Jay...Other than that, I thought they compared the guys pretty well....I would have also liked a few "fan friendly" callouts...Melvin against JOJ/ Darrem, QT vs Silvio, etc....
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POST #1 on www.bodybuilding.com
Originally Posted by KRN-GOOKX891
if u were a judge wat would've been ur top ten?
1/2/3- Dennis Wolf
1/2/3- Victor Martinez
1/2/3- Dexter Jackson
I would really have to see them in direct comparison to be able to judge with absolute certainty - but these guys were top three
4/5 - Johnnie Jackson
4/5 - Melvin Anthony
6/7 - Gustavo Badell
6/7 - Jay Cutler
8 - Ronnie Coleman
9/10/11 - Hidetada Yamagishi
9/10/11 - Ronnie Rockel
9/10/11 - David Henry
12 - Darrem Charles
13- Silvio Samuel
etc...
And I base this placing on PHYSIQUES ONLY - not politics...And when I have a time I could elaborate how and why I placed EACH AND EVERY COMPETITOR...
POST#2
Posted by TheGame76
The only thing that really sticks out to me is Hidetatada up in 9/10/11 and Silvio all the way down in 13th. Could you please explain that one?
Yes, very much so...and please don't forget that I trained both of them for few months ON DAILY BASES and saw them pose next to each other countless number of times...
Silvio is also PHENOMENAL BODYBUILDER BY ALL MEANS and me putting him LOWER than where he placed is absolutely NOT from any vendetta (what many would think...)
I think he considerably worsened his balance - and his legs are now really overpowering his upper body in many poses...
His back is also considerably smaller and somewhat softer than earlier this year...and that could be said for the rest of his upper body as well.
Look at the photos from the Ironman, Sacramento, Arnold Classic and compare it to Europa show (which he won) and Olympia...
When he lifts his arms up (front and back double biceps pose) it is clearly visible how small is his torso in comparison to his legs...+ what is surprising - his great arms don't look to impressive once he lifts them up...
What seems to be phenomenal arm (in down position) becomes below average arm when is in double biceps pose...(Contrary to Hide's who's arms are becoming incredible...)
So :
#1 - balance issue (legs too big for his upper body)
#2 - torso quite small/ somewhat narrow
#3 - calves need much work
#4 - lifted arms - not as impressive
#5 - lat spread - not as wide
#6 - posing while improved still NOT at professional level
#7 - still making "mistakes" of letting his stomach out on stage (occasionally enough to be photographed with his stomach out.../see some comparison photos on getbig or my site...)
to name the few...
Now, Hide is not perfect either (nobody is perfect...except me - off course...but that is another story...) but he was more muscular, thicker, wider (yes wider even though Hide is not particularly wide), fuller...with better stage presence, presentation, posing...
Symmetry round:
FRONT, both sides and rear relax pose - Balance (Hide), Shape (Silvio), Conditioning (tie), Muscularity (Hide), Presentation (Hide)
Front double biceps: Hide
Rear double biceps: Hide
Front lat spread: some advantages Silvio...some Hide (we can analyze deeply)
Rear lat spread:some advantages Silvio...some Hide (we can analyze deeply)
Side chest: Hide (Silvio is good in this pose - but overall impression goes to Hide...and I am talking about EVERY ASPECT of bodybuilding I am considering when judging)
Side triceps: same as above
Abs and thighs: Silvio
Most muscular: close
Posing routine: Hide
good post.
sorry for the long quote.
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It wasn't missing at the O...the only callout I wanted to see but didn't was Wolf against Jay...Other than that, I thought they compared the guys pretty well....I would have also liked a few "fan friendly" callouts...Melvin against JOJ/ Darrem, QT vs Silvio, etc....
Chic, I assume you are ok from the fire in Cal?
Oh and nce again to you think that the bodybuilders should adhere to the rules along with the judges?
Thanks and good luck, Howard
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If we can agree about what constitutes an ideal physique for both men and women then we will be able to approach judging competitors better. We also have to define just what bodybuilding is and how to actually judge physiques. The IFBB system is not the best method to judge bodybuilders.
Remember when Ben told us bodybuilding would be accepted in the Olympic Games? Nice try but it never happened. Ben so wanted this to happen that he structured the judging to mimic what happens in other sports. Thus, the rounds system evolved and it has been woe to bodybuilding ever since. Ben insisted each round should be scored. This led to all manner of nonsense over the years. No matter, Ben came up with a way to correct errant scores. Judge the top guys during a posedown!
Bodybuilding judging evolved in London, England during the NABBA Mr Universe era. It also evolved in the AAU Mr America contest. Those were the two most prestigious contests up until the Mr Olympia was created in 1965. The AAU contest became controversial because there seemed to be racial requirements and no black bodybuilder won until 1970. Not even the great Sergio Oliva could win that show. Mr America had to represent the epitome of American manhood so there was an interview component and a sports requirement. This judging process didn't impact on the other bodybuilding organizations.
What happened in England came to be the best method to judge bodybuilders. That contest became very popular and it required some method to split the bodybuilders into groups to facilitate judging so many of them. Thus, the height classes were introduced. This was just a way to accommodate many bodybuilders. There was still an overall comparison between the class winners. It was possible to judge men of different heights.
The NABBA system led to the use of many judges. Anyone who has competed in local contests knows how easy it is to stack judges and show favouritism. In the old days they selected gym owners to judge and that was about as good as it got for spreading the responsibility for judging around. NABBA saw the problem and increased the number of judges to something between 11 and 15 judges. Having more judges eliminates biases and distortions. In the IFBB system they have 7 judges. Then they discard the highest and lowest score for each competitor.That means only 5 judges actually score the contest and this clearly is not enough for important national and international contests. I would like to see the Mr Olympia judged by 21 judges.
If we define bodybuilding to be the presentation of the physique both standing relaxed and posing then we can make criterion to separate the bodybuilders. As everyone knows no one stands relaxed any more. That section of a contest was simply a way to eliminate contestants and not actually score them. Oh, you can award points, etc., but they shouldn't be counted in the overall placings. The idea is to select the best bodybuilders on the day. The best bodybuilder is the one who looks the best both standing around and then posing. The actual posing routine is but a means to demonstrate the physique and should not be scored inself. Oh, a special award for the best poser can be awarded but that ability is not what bodybuilding is about. Posing is important because if you cannot present yourself properly you are unlikely to be seen as the best there.
Okay, we use various lineups to get the top 6 bodybuilders to compare. We could make it the top 10. When those are selected the real judging takes place and that includes watching them stand relaxed, posing routine, and then comparisons. Judges should be able to call out anyone they want to see again and again. This process continues until every judge is satisfied he has separated the competitors. Once the judging is completed there is no further judging. No judge can change his mind. No judging should occur after they can talk among themselves which includes discussions with officials. Posedowns and other displays can occur but they do not count in the scoring. So there is only one score and that is after the finals are judged. The finals are when the top 6 or 10 competitors are judged. There are no rounds scored.
Let's talk about criteria. Well, since bodybuilding is about building up the muscles then the most important factor is muscle size. The biggest bodybuilder, all else equal, should win. Related to size is proportions and balance. The competitor with all muscles large wins over another with small arms or small calves, for example. It is an easy matter to come up with ratios of muscles according to the evolution of size. A guy with 18 inch arms should have calves that are 18 inches as well. A guy with 20 inch arms should have 19 inch calves to be equally proportional.
As well as size and proportions we consider appearance. The shape of muscles and the definition is important. We have terms like symmetry that are not always clearly understood. Symmetry can mean aesthetics and not only having one side the same as the other. Dorian with a torn biceps clearly suffered some symmetry loss.
It would be possible to weigh various factors. In the end you have the overall appearance of competitors and this ends up being the most important factor. This is where conditioning has come to be so important and is now used to separate the competitors. We then have problems because we have to have limits regarding the various components of judging. Can a small, conditioned guy beat a larger but smooth competitor? In modern professional contests the size differences are not so great and so conditioning becomes the factor that separates the bodybuilders. Should this be so is what must be sorted out by judging committees.
Another possible way to judge contests is to have a separate panel looking at photographs. This can be done by taking standardized photos and making all competitors the same size. This panel then judges everyone by what is seen in the photos. There could also be videos to assess the posing routine and overall appearance. This panel could count for perhaps 40% of the final scores. If we had something like this it might eliminate the aftermath where so many argue about who should have won. This would be a step towards having somewhat more objective judging.
The process of judging has been discussed and it should be done so that it is both fair and seen to be fair. There should be no bias either positive or negative. The selection of judges should be done by a committee that is open and responsible. Judges should be trained and not brainwashed. The actual placement of judges should be something to consider. The idea that judges sit close to the stage is something that should be reviewed. It is usually done because you can't have other people blocking the view of the competitors. Should judges be able to mix with the competitors as they prepare for competition? It might be that judges get a better view if they are not so close to the stage and looking up at competitors. Perhaps they should be at waist level to the bodybuilders to best view them properly. You can do this in a venue with seats that slope towards the stage.
The call outs are important and who picks who is called out is crucial. Should it be the responsibility of the chairman of judges or the head judge or a random selection of individual judges or a consensus? There should be no way that judges can know what the head judge thinks about who are the best. Clearly that doesn't happen now. Everyone knows exactly what the head judge thinks and that colours all modern contests. This is the single factor that has to change to make sure contests are seen to be honest and fair.
The judges results should be published after the awards are presented. It is possible to do this because we have done this in the past. Every judges score is there and everyone can see who voted for whom. There is no need for bodybuilders to ask where they were placed. Fans can have copies of the scores and everyone goes home informed instead of perplexed.
There is one aspect I haven't mentioned. That is faults and blemishes that detract from the physique. Important among these are gynocomastia, tattoos, stretch marks and blemishes. Whatever diminishes the physique should lower the score of competitors. Just how much is what has to be decided. Should a Mr anything have breasts? That is something that has been tolerated over the years but something that shouldn't be visible on men.
Should synthetic ways of augmenting the physique be tolerated? This is crucial regarding the practice of site injections of various agents to increase girth. There should be no inserts allowed in bodybuilding contests because that goes totally against the very core of what bodybuilding is all about. You train to build up your muscles, you do not see your plastic surgeon!
There is a huge problem regarding women. Breast augmentation is usually allowed because most females lose breast size when dieting for contests. The practice of allowing breast inserts probably has led to distortions in what we see today.
Ah, the drug issue. Sweep it under the carpet or enforce strict rules against any illegal substances as determined by the Olympic committee and other sporting organizations? If bodybuilding is about training and increasing muscle mass in the gym then there should be no cheating allowed via drugs and other chemicals. Without strict testing there can be no valid bodybuilding contests. There should be off-season testing and disqualification for life for cheaters. There should be no exceptions.
I have no doubt many of us could work together to come up with a better way to judge contests than what the IFBB does now. It would be a simple matter to assemble a super committee and form a new judging method complete with criteria, rules and processes.
Outstanding post. I fear, however, that considering the attention span and cognitive capacities of getbiggers, I'm probably the only one who's read it.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
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in all seriousness. how does one become a judge? Is their a place where we can submit an application.
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Again what about distended stomachs. Why aren't those marked down. People are going to keep showing up with them if you don't mark it down.
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Milos,very good, the changes must come....
Vidim,da ti nije dosadno ovde...pozdrav.Dean.
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Milos,very good, the changes must come....
Vidim,da ti nije dosadno ovde...pozdrav.Dean.
Biciklici tapocki
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Another one worth revisiting
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=177274.0
Let's talk about IFBB judging!
« on: October 24, 2007, 10:40:10 AM »
Quote Modify Remove
As much as I know that I will be criticized again - I calculated PROS and CONS and decided to post this ANYWAY...
I would like to emphasize that I AM NOT TRYING to create the problem...instead I am trying to find a solution for everlasting problem we are all facing for numerous years. Subjectivity as a nature of judging IFBB events (bodybuilding, fitness and figure).
I know that many IFBB officials and athletes are reading this board so I am sure this will reach ALL THE PARTIES in no time...
Well, I am talking about SUBJECTIVITY as a nature of judging our bodybuilding shows...and while we can't measure, time or knockout anyone - we can certainly defeat our competitors IF somebody clarifies the judging criteria...and defines what is GOOD, BETTER...and/or THE BEST.
If competitors AND JUDGES would know what we all really want (we - as bodybuilding community) - maybe we could actually agree on something...that something being - judging!
After all competitors will know HOW TO PREPARE BETTER, judges would know how to judge, fans would be less angry or confused ...or rather shocked with the results and some winners would possibly be at least somewhat ashamed [ accepting somebody's else title (money, glory...etc)...and I would not face another suspension ...or be told to - shut up..
Anyway, for years now we are dealing with inconsistent results and waiting for a changes...and those changes never came...Actually - things are getting worse and certainly not better and that's why I think it is time to speak up.
Did you ever wonder how judges really judge the show?
Do you think they have some point system? Some percentages(?), certain things that they are looking for (?), certain things they penalize or award athletes for (?)...Real MEASURABLE criteria?
Simply - they don't!
Judgment is given purely on subjective opinion and that could be PERSONAL PREFERENCE of the judge who is entitled to his own subjective opinion...
Well, in my opinion - judging should consider:
1- SHAPE, BALANCE, AESTHETICS, SYMMETRY, EXTREME V-TAPER, FLAT AND DEEP ABS, BEAUTY OF PHYSIQUE, HEALTHY SKIN...AND HEALTHY OVERALL APPEARANCE...as ONE ASPECT OF JUDGING
2- CONDITIONING, MUSCULARITY, EXTREME LEAN LOOK, DRYNESS, SEPARATION, STRIATIONS, TIE-INS, "GRAINY-NESS", "HARDNESS", TIGHT SKIN, "SHREDDED-NESS"...and other EXTREMES of similar nature...
But, here I would also consider muscle Glycogen storage - and FULLNESS as conditioning part of judging rather than MUSCLE MASS ASPECT of judging...
3- MUSCLE MASS, THICKNESS, WIDTH, ROUND MUSCLE BELLIES (could be considered in aspect #1 as well...)...and other extremes of similar nature...
4- PRESENTATION, POSING, ABILITY TO SHOW PHYSIQUE THE WAY IT SUPPOSE TO LOOK (not leaving it up for imagination of others to THINK what certain physique could look like IF presented correctly...), MISTAKE FREE POSING (#1- many competitors forget to squeeze certain muscles...and more often than not - judges would just go with: "well, if Jay squeezed his legs on Friday during the prejudging - he would have looked better so I would give him this pose considering that I know what his legs and physique looks like IF he posed correctly, #2 - many competitors let their "pregnancy show"...and that's a no-no, #3 - also many fail to find THE BEST WAY to do certain poses...etc...etc...), STAGE PRESENCE (standing in line up PERFECTLY...AT ALL TIMES), HITTING EVERY POSE WITH CONFIDENCE AND AUTHORITY, CHOREOGRAPHING ROUTINES with perfect transitions, SHOWING PHYSIQUE TO EMPHASIZE THE STRENGTH OF SOMEONES PHYSIQUE (and not the weaknesses...Many fail to realize that POSING ROUND is not being judged for actual posing or movement...Fat, out of shape ballet artist or out of shape professional dancer should not win the posing round by virtue of his posing skills...Posing round is PHYSIQUE ROUND where athletes could/should show their strengths USING POSES OTHER THAN MANDATORIES that present their physiques in that "special light" bodybuilders want to be known for...So, aesthetic guy could emphasize beauty of his physique, aesthetic look, perfect shape, symmetry and balance by doing EXACT POSES to exemplify WHAT HIS ATTRIBUTES ARE...
Conditioned guy on another hand could present his shredded physique by doing poses to show his shredded muscles (or maybe hide cellulite?)...and muscular guy should do as many muscular posses...thick guy presenting his thickness, wide guy his width...V-tapered guy his extreme V-taper...etc...etc
If someone succeeds in presentation of his strengths THAN AND ONLY THAN we could say OK - he should have place higher as he is: THIS (aesthetic, balanced, symmetrical...) or THAT (conditioned, more muscular, bigger, thicker, wider...)...
But, many times fans go with picture of their favorite champion AS THEY REMEMBER HIM from before - while only shadow of that physique is being displayed on the stage at the moment - yet "shadow" gets the same amount of points as "sentimental judgment" or "paid dues" treatment from the judges that ALSO consider what once was or what could have been (if in shape)...
WE NEED TO START JUDGING PHYSIQUES ON THE DAY OF THE CONTEST REGARDLESS OF NAMES, PREVIOUS OUTINGS...ETC...POLITICS ...
I am in a hurry actually so maybe I am rushing this a bit...but I will get back to make some points...or rather - maybe WE CAN ALL START NEW THREAD ABOUT JUDGING - and NOT to argue with judges and federation...Not to criticize but rather to START WORKING ON HELPING OUR OFFICIALS FINDING THE BEST WAY TO JUDGE...
To take that "subjectivity OUT" or at least reduce it to minimum...so we (ALL OF US WHO LOVE SPORT OF BODYBUILDING, ATHLETES AS WELL AS FANS) could have clear idea WHY some guy managed to place ahead of others...
Judges should be able to explain WHY they saw Jay superior to OTHERS at 2007 Mr. Olympia...(just as one of numerous examples).
Did they saw him better in:
1- SHAPE, BALANCE, AESTHETICS, SYMMETRY, EXTREME V-TAPER, FLAT AND DEEP ABS, BEAUTY OF PHYSIQUE, HEALTHY SKIN...AND HEALTHY OVERALL APPEARANCE...department?
I don't think so...as I see many beating Jay in this aspect of judging.
2- CONDITIONING, MUSCULARITY, EXTREME LEAN LOOK, DRYNESS, SEPARATION, STRIATIONS, TIE-INS, "GRAINY-NESS", HARDNESS, TIGHT SKIN, SHREDDED-NESS...and other EXTREMES of similar nature...
But, here I would also consider muscle Glycogen storage - and FULLNESS as conditioning part of judging rather than MUSCLE MASS ASPECT of judging...
I don't think so - AGAIN...
3- MUSCLE MASS, THICKNESS, WIDTH, ROUND MUSCLE BELLIES (could be considered in aspect #1 as well...)...and other extremes of similar nature...
Maybe in this one? So this is "holly grail" of bodybuilding - BIGGER IS BETTER AND NOTHING ELSE MATTERS?
4- PRESENTATION, POSING, ABILITY TO SHOW PHYSIQUE THE WAY IT SUPPOSE TO LOOK
Again...NOT the case (in my book)...
So, let's help our judges...which will ultimately help our sport.
Give your point of view...and we could at least start SOLVING THE PROBLEM - very easily...
And let's keep it NICE and CIVIL..without unnecessary attacks...
Again - I am looking for SOLUTION and not the ARGUMENT... and I hope we all do?
-
APPENDIX 2
HOW TO ASSESS AN ATHLETE’S PHYSIQUE
1.1 General:
When assessing a competitor’s physique, a judge should follow a
routine procedure which will allow a comprehensive assessment of
the physique as a whole.
During the comparisons of the compulsory poses, the judge should first look at the primary
muscle group being displayed. The judge should then survey the
whole physique, starting from the head, and looking at every part
of the physique in a downward sequence, beginning with general
impressions, and looking for muscular bulk, balanced
development, muscular density and definition. The downward
survey should take in the head, neck, shoulders, chest, all of the
arm muscles, front of the trunk for pectorals, pec-delt tie-in,
abdominals, waist, thighs, legs, calves and feet. The same
procedure for back poses will also take in the upper and lower
trapezius, teres and infraspinatus, erector spinae, the gluteus
group, the leg biceps group at the back of the thighs, calves, and
feet. A detailed assessment of the various muscle groups should
be made during the comparisons, at which time it helps the judge
to compare muscle shape, density, and definition while still
bearing in mind the competitor’s overall balanced development.
The comparisons of the compulsory poses cannot be over-
emphasized as these comparisons will help the judge to decide
which competitor has the superior physique from the standpoint of
muscular bulk, balanced development, muscular density and
definition.
1.2 Men’s Compulsory Poses:
1. Front Double Biceps (see Figure 1)
Standing face front to the judges, with the legs and feet
in-line and a short distance apart, the competitor will raise
both arms to shoulder level and bend them at the elbows.
The hands should be clenched and turned down so as to
cause a contraction of the biceps and forearm muscles,
which are the main muscle groups that are to be assessed
in this pose. In addition, the competitor should attempt
to contract as many other muscles as possible as the
judges will be surveying the whole physique, from head to
toe.
The judge will first survey the biceps muscles looking for a
full, peaked development of the muscle, noting whether
or not there is a defined split between the anterior and
posterior sections of the biceps, and will continue the
head-to-toe survey by observing the development of the
forearms, deltoids, pectorals, pec-delt tie-ins, abdominals,
thighs, and calves. The judge will also look for muscle
density, definition, and overall balance.
2. Front Lat Spread (see Figure 2)
Standing face front to the judges, with the legs and feet a
short distance apart, the competitor will place the open
hands, or clenched fists, against, or gripping, the lower
waist or obliques and will expand the latissimus muscles.
At the same time, the competitor should attempt to
contract as many other frontal muscles as possible. It
shall be strictly forbidden for the competitor to pull up on
the posing trunks so as to show the top inside of the
quadriceps.
The judge should first see whether the competitor can
show a good spread of the latissimus muscles, thereby
creating a V-shaped torso. Then the judge should
continue with the head-to-foot survey, noting first the
general aspectsof the physique and then concentrating on
the more detailed aspects of the various muscle groups.
3. Side Chest (see Figure 3)
The competitor may choose either side for this pose, in
order to display the “better” arm. He will stand with his
left or right side towards the judges and will bend the arm
nearest the judges to a right-angle position, with the fist
clenched and, with the other hand, will grasp the wrist.
The leg nearest the judges will be bent at the knee and
will rest on the toes. The competitor will then expand the
chest and by upward pressure of the front bent arm and
contract the biceps as much as possible. He will also
contract the thigh muscles, in particular, the biceps
femoris group, and by downward pressure on his toes,
will display the contracted calf muscles.
The judge will pay particular attention to the pectoral
muscles and the arch of the rib cage, the biceps, the leg
biceps and the calves, and will conclude with the head-to-
foot examination. In this pose the judge will be able to
survey the thigh and calf muscles in profile, which will
help in grading their comparative development more
accurately.
4. Back Double Biceps (see Figure 4)
Standing with his back to the judges, the competitor will
bend the arms and wrists as in the Front Double Biceps
pose, and will place one foot back, resting on the toes.
He will then contract the arm muscles as well as the
muscles of the shoulders, upper and lower back, thigh
and calf muscles.
The judge will first survey the arm muscles and then do
the head-to-foot survey, during which there are more
muscle groups to look at than in all of the other poses.
This includes the neck, deltoids, biceps, triceps, forearm,
trapezius, teres, infraspinatus, erector spinae, external
obliques, latissimus dorsi, gluteus, thigh biceps, and
calves. This pose, probably more than the others, will
help the judge to determine the quality of the
competitor’s muscle density, definition, and overall
balance.
5. Back Lat Spread (see Figure 5)
Standing with his back to the judges, the competitor will
place his hands on his waist with his elbows kept wide,
one foot back and resting on the toes. He will then
contract the latissimus dorsi as wide as possible and
display a calf contraction by pressing downward on the
rear toes. The competitor should make an effort to
display the opposite calf to that which was displayed
during the back double biceps pose so the the judge may
assess both calf muscle equally. It shall be strictly
forbidden for the competitor to pull up on the posing
trunks so as to show the gluteus maximus muscles.
The judge will look for a good spread of the latissimus
dorsi, but also for good muscle density and will again
conclude with the head-to-foot survey.
6. Side Triceps (see Figure 6)
The competitor may choose either side for this pose so as
to show the “better” arm. He will stand with his left or
right side towards the judges and will place both arms
behind his back, either linking his fingers or grasping the
front arm by the wrist with his rear hand. The leg nearest
the judges will be bent at the knee and the foot will rest
flat on the floor. The competitor will exert pressure
against his front arm, thereby causing the triceps muscle
to contract. He will also raise the chest and contract the
abdominal muscles as well as the thigh and calf muscles.
The judge will first survey the triceps muscles, and
conclude with the head-to-foot examination. In this pose,
the judge will be able to survey the thigh and calf muscles
in profile, which will help in grading their comparative
development more accurately.
7. Abdominals and Thighs (see Figure 7)
Standing face front to the judges, the competitor will
place both arms behind the head and will place one leg
forward. He will then contract the abdominal muscles by
“crunching” the trunk slightly forward. At the same time,
he will contract the thigh muscles of the forward leg.
The judge will survey the abdominal and thigh muscles,
and then conclude with the head-to-foot examination.
1.3 Assessing Prejudging:
In assessing prejudging, overall shape and that of the various
muscle groups is important. The judge should favour competitors
with a harmonious, classical physique. The judge should look for
good posture and athletic bearing, correct anatomical structure
(including body framework, broad shoulders, high chest, correct
spinal curves, limbs and trunk in good proportion, straight legs,
not bandy or knock-kneed). The judge should also look for good
skin tone with an absence of surgical or other scars, spots, acne
or tatoos, which the IFBB considers as a skin blemish, tidily
dressed hair, well-shaped feet, and toes. When having difficulty in
placing two or more competitors who seem to be on the same
level, the judge should look for faults in those aspects listed above
which will help to differentiate among the competitors.
-
Article 24 – Resolving Ties
24.1 Resolving Ties at Prejudging:
Should a tie occur in the Prejudging “RD1 (SUB)SCORE”, the tie is
broken using the “Relative Placement” method. Each individual
judge’s scores for the tied athletes is compared on a column-by-
column basis with a dot being placed on top of the number for the
athlete with the lower placing. All nine regular panel judge’s
scores are included in the tie breaking calculations. The number
of dots are tallied for each of the tied athletes. The athlete with
the greater number of dots is declared the winner of the tie and
therefore receives the better placing.
24.2 Resolving Ties at Finals:
Should a tie occur in the Finals, “RD2 SUBSCORE”, the tie need
not be immediately broken, as the “RD2 SUBSCORE” must be
added to the “RD3 SUBSCORE” to produce a “FINAL SCORE”.
Should a tie occur in the Finals, “RD3 SUBSCORE”, the tie need
not be immediately broken, as the “RD3 SUBSCORE” must be
added to the “RD2 SUBSCORE” to produce a “FINAL SCORE”.
Should a tie occur in the “FINAL SCORE”, the tie shall be broken in
favor of the competitor with the better “RD3 SUBSCORE”. If the
“RD3 SUBSCORE” is tied, the tie shall be broken using the
“Relative Placement” method and using the athlete’s Round 3
scores.
Article 25 – Publication of Results
251 Results:
The Judges Secretary will collect the Statistician’s Score Sheet for
each category and will then transcribe the results onto Form #9,
entitled “Final Scoresheet. Copies of these sheets will be
distributed to the national delegations, press, radio, and television
immediately after the competition (normally at the Farewell
Banquet).
25.2 Contents:
The “Final Scoresheet” will contain the number, name and
country of every athlete participating in each category, listing
the top 15 finalists in order of competitor number, together with
their round-by-round point total, followed by the remaining
athletes by number, name and country.
25.3 Other Contents:
The “Overall Champion” and the top 3 finalists in the “Best
National Team” Award will also be listed on the “Final
Scoresheet”.
25.4 Amendments:
The IFBB will publish online at www.ifbb.com any subsequent
amendment(s) to the initial competition results e.g. as a result of
doping control.
-
1.3 Assessing Prejudging:
In assessing prejudging, overall shape and that of the various
muscle groups is important. The judge should favour competitors
with a harmonious, classical physique. The judge should look for
good posture and athletic bearing, correct anatomical structure
(including body framework, broad shoulders, high chest, correct
spinal curves, limbs and trunk in good proportion, straight legs,
not bandy or knock-kneed). The judge should also look for good
skin tone with an absence of surgical or other scars, spots, acne
or tatoos, which the IFBB considers as a skin blemish, tidily
dressed hair, well-shaped feet, and toes. When having difficulty in
placing two or more competitors who seem to be on the same
level, the judge should look for faults in those aspects listed above
which will help to differentiate among the competitors.
haha
-
FROM IFBB RULEBOOK 2006-2007 EDITION:
13.10 Accuracy in Judging:
The following rules pertain to judging accuracy:
1. The Code of Ethics obligate our sport’s officials to ensure
that all athletes are adjudicated by the most qualified
judges available. The IFBB Judges Committee is
empowered to take whatever measures it deems
necessary to ensure that this obligation is met by
selecting and panelling only those judges who meet or
exceed the minimum accepted standard of judging
accuracy approved by the IFBB.
2. The minimum acceptable standard is an overall average
score of 65% (70% at Prejudging; 60% at Finals).
3. Judging accuracy is calculated using the “Deviation
Method”. This method calculates the “deviation” between
an individual judge’s placement of an athlete and the
entire regular judge’s panel placement of that same
athlete.
Article 16 – Prejudging: Elimination Round
16.1 General:
The Prejudging, which is open to the general public, will take
place the day after the Official Athlete Registration. A time-table
for prejudging each category should be published and should
allow for approximately 30 minutes for the judging of each
category. In order to give themselves time to warm up and
change into their posing attire, competitors should be in the
backstage warmup area at least 30 minutes prior to the start time
of the judging of their category. All competitors will be solely
responsible for ensuring that they are present and prepared to
compete when their category is called onstage failing which they
may be eliminated from the competition.
16.2 Procedures:
When there are more than 15 athletes competing in a category,
an elimination round will be held for the purpose of reducing the
number to 15. The elimination round will proceed as follows:
1. All of the athletes in the category will be brought onstage
in a single line (two lines if necessary) and in numerical
order. The IFBB Chief Judge will then direct the
competitors, centre-stage, in numerical order and in
groups of not more than 5 competitors at a time, through
the following four compulsory poses:
a. Front double biceps;
b. Side chest;
c. Back double biceps; and
d. Abdominals and thighs.
2. Using Form #1, entitled “Preliminary Assessment
(Judges)”, if there are more than 21 competitors in a
category, the judge will mark an "X" beside the numbers
corresponding to the competitors whom they wish to
select as the top 15 finalists. If there are 16 to 21
competitors in a category, the judge will mark an "X"
beside the numbers corresponding to the competitors
whom they wish to eliminate from the top 15 finalists.
3. Using Form #2, entitled “Preliminary Assessment
(Statisticians)”, the statisticians will transcribe the judge’s
decisions by recording, under each judge’s name, their
selections. They will then add up the total number of “X”s
for each competitor and record the result in the column
marked “TOTAL”. Depending on the procedure used in
article 16.2.2. above, either the top 15 competitors will be
selected, or the bottom 1 to 6 competitors will be
eliminated. At the end of the elimination round,
regardless of which procedure is used, the final result will
allow only the top 15 competitors to proceed to the
Prejudging.
4. Should a tie occur at the 15th position, the tied
competitors will be brought back onstage and will once
again be directed, by the IFBB Chief Judge, through the
four compulsory poses for the purpose of breaking the tie.
Article 17 – Prejudging: Round One (Comparisons of
Compulsory Poses)
17.1 Procedures:
The Prejudging (Round One) will immediately follow the
elimination round and will proceed as follows:
1. All 15 finalists will be called onstage as a group, in a
single line and in numerical order. The judging panel
should be given a moment to note the competitor
numbers on their score sheet.
2. In groups of not more than 5 competitors at a time, and
in numerical order, the competitors will be directed to
perform the following four poses at centre-stage:
a. Front relaxed followed by Front Double Biceps
b. Side Chest
c. Back relaxed followed by Back Double Biceps
d. Abdominal & Thighs
This posing will not be scored but will be used by the
judges to determine their own individual comparisons,
which will immediately follow.
3. In Round 1, the judges will compare the competitors
while they are directed to perform the following seven
compulsory poses (five for women), up to a maximum of
five athletes at a time:
a. Front double biceps;
b. Front lat spread (men only);
c. Side chest;
d. Back double biceps;
e. Back lat spread (men only);
f. Side triceps; and
g. Abdominals and thighs.
4. Each judge is expected to watch all of the comparisons
and not just those that a specific judge has requested.
Guidelines on “How to Assess an Athlete’s Physique” are
attached as Appendix 2.
5. Using Form #3, entitled “Judges Individual Placings
(Prejudging)”, each judge will mark the competitors in
placings of 1 through 15, indicating where a particular
athlete stands in comparison with the other 14 athletes,
and will not give more than one athlete the same placing.
In order to assist with these decisions, the judges may
use Form #4, entitled “Judge’s Personal Notes”, said form
which is considered confidential and the sole property of
the judge.
6. The statisticians will transcribe each judge’s placings onto
Form #5, entitled “Score Sheet (Statisticians)”, under the
Prejudging section. They will then eliminate two high and
two low scores for each competitor, and will add up the
remaining five scores and record the results in the column
marked “RD1 (SUB)SCORE”. Once all of the scores have
been determined, they will then record a placing for each
competitor under the column marked “RD1 PLACE”. The
competitor with the lowest subscore is awarded 1st place
while the competitor with the highest subscore is awarded
15th place. The top 6 placings qualify for the Finals.
7. The same routine will be followed for each category, the
order of which is from lowest category to highest
category.
8. Should a tie occur in the “RD1 (SUB)SCORE”, the tie will
be broken using the “Relative Placement” method. Each
individual judge’s scores for the tied athletes is compared
on a column-by-column basis with a dot being placed on
top of the number for the athlete with the lower placing.
All nine regular panel judge’s scores are included in the tie
breaking calculations. The number of dots is tallied for
each of the tied athletes. The athlete with the greater
number of dots is declared the winner of the tie and
therefore, receives the better placing.
9. The statistician’s score sheets and the competitor’s scores
must be kept strictly confidential and are known only to
the statisticians, the IFBB Chief Judge, and the Judges
Secretary who are obligated not to divulge any score, or
scores, to any competitor, judge, other official,
administrator, organizer, or member of the IFBB Executive
Council, except the President.
10. The scores for the Prejudging will be used to place the top
15 competitors from 1st place to 15th place. The top 6
competitors from the Prejudging will advance to the Finals
and will start the Finals with zero points.
11. At the discretion of the IFBB Chief Judge, the top 6
finalists may be announced after the Prejudging and
before the Finals.
Article 19 – Finals: Round Two (Posing Routines)
19.1 Procedures:
The Finals will immediately follow the Opening Ceremony and will
proceed as follows:
1. In Round 2, the top 6 finalists will be brought onstage in a
single line and in numerical order. Each finalist will be
introduced by number, country and name.
2. Each of the top 6 finalists, in numerical order, will perform
an individual posing routine to music of his or her choice,
up to a maximum of 60 seconds. This round will be
scored.
3. Using Form #6, entitled “Judge’s Individual Placings
(Finals)”, each judge will mark the competitors in placings
of 1 through 6, and will not give more than one athlete
the same placing.
4. The statisticians will transcribe each judge’s placings onto
Form #5, entitled “Score Sheet (Statisticians)”, under the
Finals section, Round 2. They will then eliminate two high
and two low scores for each competitor, and will add up
the remaining five scores and record the results in the
column marked “RD2 SUBSCORE”. Round 2 shall have a
weight of one-third of the final score, or 33%.
5. Ties in the “RD2 SUBSCORE” need not be immediately
broken, as the “RD2 SUBSCORE” will be added to the
“RD3 SUBSCORE” to produce a “FINAL SCORE”.
6. The same nine judges who adjudicated a category at the
Prejudging will judge the same category at the finals (e.g.
the panel of judges seated for the men’s bantamweight
category during the Prejudging will be the same panel of
judges seated for the men’s bantamweight category
during the Finals).
Article 20 – Finals: Round Three (Compulsory Poses and
Posedown)
20.1 Procedures:
The Finals (Round Three) will immediately follow the Finals
(Round Two) and will proceed as follows:
1. In Round 3, under the direction of the IFBB Chief Judge,
the top 6 finalists will perform the 7 compulsory poses, as
a group and at the same time, in the middle, left and right
stage areas. An 8th pose, the “Most Muscular”, will be
called as the last pose before the posedown. This round
will be scored.
2. As soon as the 7 compulsory poses are completed, the
IFBB Chief Judge will call for a 60-second posedown to
music of the Organizer’s choice. This round will not be
scored.
3. Using Form #6, entitled “Judge’s Individual Placings
(Finals)”, each judge will mark the competitors in placings
of 1 through 6, indicating where a particular athlete
stands in comparison with the other 5 athletes, and will
not give more than one athlete the same placing.
4. The statisticians will transcribe each judge’s placings onto
Form #5, entitled “Score Sheet (Statisticians)”, under the
Finals section, Round 3. They will then eliminate two high
and two low scores for each competitor, and will add up
the remaining five scores and record the results in the
column marked “RD3 SUBSCORE”. They will then add the
“RD2 SUBSCORE” and the “RD3 SUBSCORE” to produce
a “FINAL SCORE”. They will then record a placing for
each competitor under the column marked “FINAL
PLACE”. The competitor with the lowest “FINAL SCORE”
is awarded 1st place while the competitor with the highest
“FINAL SCORE” is awarded 6th place. Round 3 shall have
a weight of two-thirds of the final score, or 67%. To
achieve this, the Round 3 score shall be doubled by the
statistician.
5. Ties in the “RD3 SUBSCORE” need not be immediately
broken, as the “RD3 SUBSCORE” will be added to the
“RD2 SUBSCORE” to produce a “FINAL SCORE”.
6. Should a tie occur in the “FINAL SCORE”, the tie shall be
broken in favor of the competitor with the better “RD3
SUBSCORE”. If the “RD3 SUBSCORE” is tied, the tie shall
be broken using the “Relative Placement” method and
using the athlete’s Round 3 scores.
7. During the Prejudging and Finals, the Judges Secretary
will be responsible for collecting the individual mark
sheets from the judges and, together with the IFBB Chief
Judge, will scrutinize the marks for the purpose of
determining their accuracy. If any judge has awarded
marks that are greatly at variance with those of the other
judges, the Chief Judge may question that judge for an
explanation of his or her marks. The IFBB Chief Judge has
authority to remove from the panel any judge who is
unfairly biased or incompetent, or who engages in
misconduct or unacceptable behaviour.
-
FROM www.bodybuilding.co m:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=87128953#post87128953
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRN-GOOKX891 View Post
if u were a judge wat would've been ur top ten?
MY 2007 MR.OLYMPIA PLACING:
1/2/3- Dennis Wolf
1/2/3- Victor Martinez
1/2/3- Dexter Jackson
I would really have to see them in direct comparison to be able to judge with absolute certainty - but these guys were top three
4/5 - Johnnie Jackson
4/5 - Melvin Anthony
6/7 - Gustavo Badell
6/7 - Jay Cutler
8 - Ronnie Coleman
9/10/11 - Hidetada Yamagishi
9/10/11 - Ronnie Rockel
9/10/11 - David Henry
12 - Darrem Charles
13- Silvio Samuel
etc...
And I base this placing on PHYSIQUES ONLY - not politics...And when I have a time I could elaborate how and why I placed EACH AND EVERY COMPETITOR...
TheGame76
The only thing that really sticks out to me is Hidetatada up in 9/10/11 and Silvio all the way down in 13th. Could you please explain that one?
Yes, very much so...and please don't forget that I trained both of them for few months ON DAILY BASES and saw them pose next to each other countless number of times...
Silvio is also PHENOMENAL BODYBUILDER BY ALL MEANS and me putting him LOWER than where he placed is absolutely NOT from any vendetta (what many would think...)
I think he considerably worsened his balance - and his legs are now really overpowering his upper body in many poses...
His back is also considerably smaller and somewhat softer than earlier this year...and that could be said for the rest of his upper body as well.
Look at the photos from the Ironman, Sacramento, Arnold Classic and compare it to Europa show (which he won) and Olympia...
When he lifts his arms up (front and back double biceps pose) it is clearly visible how small is his torso in comparison to his legs...+ what is surprising - his great arms don't look to impressive once he lifts them up...
What seems to be phenomenal arm (in down position) becomes below average arm when is in double biceps pose...(Contrary to Hide - who's arms are becoming incredible...)
So :
#1 - balance issue (legs too big for his upper body)
#2 - torso quite small/ somewhat narrow
#3 - calves need much work
#4 - lifted arms - not as impressive
#5 - lat spread - not as wide
#6 - posing while improved still NOT at professional level
#7 - still making "mistakes" of letting his stomach out on stage (occasionally enough to be photographed with his stomach out.../see some comparison photos on getbig or my site...)
to name the few...
Now, Hide is not perfect either (nobody is perfect...except me - off course...but that is another story...) but he was more muscular, thicker, wider (yes wider even though Hide is not particularly wide), fuller...with better stage presence, presentation, posing...
Symmetry round:
FRONT, both sides and rear relax pose - Balance (Hide), Shape (Silvio), Conditioning (tie), Muscularity (Hide), Presentation (Hide)
Front double biceps: Hide
Rear double biceps: Hide
Front lat spread: some advantages Silvio...some Hide (we can analyze deeply)
Rear lat spread:some advantages Silvio...some Hide (we can analyze deeply)
Side chest: Hide (Silvio is good in this pose - but overall impression goes to Hide...and I am talking about EVERY ASPECT of bodybuilding I am considering when judging)
Side triceps: same as above
Abs and thighs: Silvio
Most muscular: close
Posing routine: Hide
Judging should consider:
1- SHAPE, BALANCE, AESTHETICS, SYMMETRY, EXTREME V-TAPER, FLAT AND DEEP ABS, BEAUTY OF PHYSIQUE, HEALTHY SKIN...AND HEALTHY OVERALL APPEARANCE...as ONE ASPECT OF JUDGING
2- CONDITIONING, MUSCULARITY, EXTREME LEAN LOOK, DRYNESS, SEPARATION, STRIATIONS, TIE-INS, "GRAINY-NESS", "HARDNESS", TIGHT SKIN, "SHREDDED-NESS"...and other EXTREMES of similar nature...
But, here I would also consider muscle Glycogen storage - and FULLNESS as conditioning part of judging rather than MUSCLE MASS ASPECT of judging...
3- MUSCLE MASS, THICKNESS, WIDTH, ROUND MUSCLE BELLIES (could be considered in aspect #1 as well...)...and other extremes of similar nature...
4- PRESENTATION, POSING, ABILITY TO SHOW PHYSIQUE THE WAY IT SUPPOSE TO LOOK (not leaving it up for imagination of others to THINK what certain physique could look like IF presented correctly...), MISTAKE FREE POSING (#1- many competitors forget to squeeze certain muscles...and more often than not - judges would just go with: "well, if Jay squeezed his legs on Friday during the prejudging - he would have looked better so I would give him this pose considering that I know what his legs and physique looks like IF he posed correctly, #2 - many competitors let their "pregnancy show"...and that's a no-no, #3 - also many fail to find THE BEST WAY to do certain poses...etc...etc.. .), STAGE PRESENCE (standing in line up PERFECTLY...AT ALL TIMES), HITTING EVERY POSE WITH CONFIDENCE AND AUTHORITY, CHOREOGRAPHING ROUTINES with perfect transitions, SHOWING PHYSIQUE TO EMPHASIZE THE STRENGTH OF SOMEONES PHYSIQUE (and not the weaknesses...Many fail to realize that POSING ROUND is not being judged for actual posing or movement...Fat, out of shape ballet artist or out of shape professional dancer should not win the posing round by virtue of his posing skills...Posing round is PHYSIQUE ROUND where athletes could/should show their strengths USING POSES OTHER THAN MANDATORIES that present their physiques in that "special light" bodybuilders want to be known for...So, aesthetic guy could emphasize beauty of his physique, aesthetic look, perfect shape, symmetry and balance by doing EXACT POSES to exemplify WHAT HIS ATTRIBUTES ARE...
Conditioned guy on another hand could present his shredded physique by doing poses to show his shredded muscles (or maybe hide cellulite?)...and muscular guy should do as many muscular posses...thick guy presenting his thickness, wide guy his width...V-tapered guy his extreme V-taper...etc...etc
If someone succeeds in presentation of his strengths THAN AND ONLY THAN we could say OK - he should have place higher as he is: THIS (aesthetic, balanced, symmetrical...) or THAT (conditioned, more muscular, bigger, thicker, wider...)...
But, many times fans go with picture of their favorite champion AS THEY REMEMBER HIM from before - while only shadow of that physique is being displayed on the stage at the moment - yet "shadow" gets the same amount of points as "sentimental judgment" or "paid dues" treatment from the judges that ALSO consider what once was or what could have been (if in shape)...
WE NEED TO START JUDGING PHYSIQUES ON THE DAY OF THE CONTEST REGARDLESS OF NAMES, PREVIOUS OUTINGS...ETC...POL ITICS...
I am in a hurry actually so maybe I am rushing this a bit...but I will get back to make some points...or rather - maybe WE CAN ALL START NEW THREAD ABOUT JUDGING - and NOT to argue with judges and federation...Not to criticize but rather to START WORKING ON HELPING OUR OFFICIALS FINDING THE BEST WAY TO JUDGE...
To take that "subjectivity OUT" or at least reduce it to minimum...so we (ALL OF US WHO LOVE SPORT OF BODYBUILDING, ATHLETES AS WELL AS FANS) could have clear idea WHY some guy managed to place ahead of others...
Judges should be able to explain WHY they saw Jay superior to OTHERS at 2007 Mr. Olympia...
Did they saw him better in:
1- SHAPE, BALANCE, AESTHETICS, SYMMETRY, EXTREME V-TAPER, FLAT AND DEEP ABS, BEAUTY OF PHYSIQUE, HEALTHY SKIN...AND HEALTHY OVERALL APPEARANCE...depart ment?
I don't think so...as I see many beating Jay in this aspect of judging.
2- CONDITIONING, MUSCULARITY, EXTREME LEAN LOOK, DRYNESS, SEPARATION, STRIATIONS, TIE-INS, "GRAINY-NESS", HARDNESS, TIGHT SKIN, SHREDDED-NESS...and other EXTREMES of similar nature...
But, here I would also consider muscle Glycogen storage - and FULLNESS as conditioning part of judging rather than MUSCLE MASS ASPECT of judging...
I don't think so - AGAIN...
3- MUSCLE MASS, THICKNESS, WIDTH, ROUND MUSCLE BELLIES (could be considered in aspect #1 as well...)...and other extremes of similar nature...
Maybe in this one? So this is "holly grail" of bodybuilding - BIGGER IS BETTER AND NOTHING ELSE MATTERS?
4- PRESENTATION, POSING, ABILITY TO SHOW PHYSIQUE THE WAY IT SUPPOSE TO LOOK
Again...NOT the case (in my book)...
So, let's help our judges...which will ultimately help our sport.
Give your point of view...and we could SOLVE THE PROBLEM - very easily...
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Judging FIGURE COMPETITIONS
http://milossarcev.com/board/index.php?topic=3363.45
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Re: Judging IFBB PRO FIGURE COMPETITIONS
« Reply #160 on: October 31, 2005, 04:29:04 AM »
UNDERSTANDING FIGURE JUDGING
Answering The Question: "How could I end up 12th on every judge's scorecard?"
from Bill Dobbins.com:
If you are wondering on what basis figure is judged, given that there aren't the same kind of more-or-less objective criteria to go by that you find in bodybuilding, you are out of luck - because nobody can really tell you. Over time, the judges have gravitated toward a longer-waisted, longer-proportioned type of body than you find in fitness or bodybuilding, where the more compact physiques tend to win. But that is more of a tradition than a set of criteria.
But given this tradition, a general rule is that competitors who have the same type of structure as Davana Medina, Jenny Lynn, Amber Littlejohn and Mary Elizabeth Lado will tend to have an advantage. But that's only in general. In specific contests there are liable to be all sorts of body types included in the top five or the top ten – although many of the women who place well finished way down in their last contest and will finish out of the top ten in the next one they enter.
But what confuses competitors is not so much that placings can vary so widely from show to show. It is the almost amazing degree of consistency you tend to see in the scorecards in any given contest. That's where the quote at the beginning of this article comes from. A figure competitor asked me if I thought there was some kind of collusion among the judges, some meeting in which they received instructions on how to vote. How else, she thought, could a group of nine or eleven judges all agree on who should finish 11th, 12th or whatever?
Anyone who examines figure scorecards and see that this type of thing does seem to happen fairly often. But what causes this is not some kind of conspiracy among the judges in which the placings are determined ahead of time. Instead, the process that creates this kind of result actually takes place during the contest and is perfectly obvious to everyone watching if they know what to look for.
The key is the control exercised by the head judge over the call-outs. While prejudging call-outs in IFBB bodybuilding have always involved a more mixed quality of competitors in any given group, the NPC style is more specific: the first five called out are the top five, the next group defines who will finish 6th through 10th, then the next group of five and so on. In bodybuilding, this is a fairly effective and efficient process. Because there is a tradition of specific standards in bodybuilding, judges might disagree as to whether a competitor should be 2nd or 3rd, but not whether they should be 2nd or 12th. There simply shouldn't be that much disagreement among competent judges in the vast majority of cases.
But judges in figure can't rely simply on their own experience or expertise. They just aren't any specific standards to go by. The practice in fitness, which is also applied in figure, is to give high placings to women who have done well in past contests or who look like those who have placed well in the past. But there has always been a much greater degree of "sameness" in fitness bodies than in figure, because the fitness women also had to be gymnasts (for the most part) and excelling in gymnastic moves requires a small, lean, compact body.
But because of the misconception that figure is somehow "easier," a lot of women from both fitness and bodybuilding have decided to switch categories. So the figure line-up - especially at the pro level where there are no height categories – usually contains a wide variety of different body types. Tall, long-bodied competitors stand next to former gymnasts and bodybuilders as well as sexy "bikini models." So what's a judge to do? How can you arrive at a series of placings that conforms to the consistency? required by both the NPC and the IFBB?
The answer is that you follow the lead of the head judge. Here is a scenario that takes place more often than you might think: The head judge calls out five competitors. Whether that would be your top five or whether you think all the competitors in the group deserve to be there doesn't matter. The judges have now been told who the top five are supposed to be. Disagree at your peril.
Then the head judge begins to ask the competitors to change places in the group. The one of the end is moved to the middle or next to the competitor in the middle. Another competitor is moved out to the end. After this is done, it is made clear to all the judges who the top five are and in what order they are supposed to finish. The one in the middle is the best in the group, the ones next to her are next best and so forth.
The same thing happens with the next five and then five more until all the competitors have been prejudged. All the judges have to do is follow the lead of the head judge and write down the scores accordingly.
So I would tell the woman who finished 12th on every scorecard that this happened because she was brought out in the third group of five and the head judge moved her to stand next to the competitor in the middle: the 2nd placing in the third group of five = 12th. Simple as that.
Of course, when you are dealing with contests across the country at both the amateur and professional levels, there are a variety of different head judges and not all of them have things so carefully organized. However, when this system is used there aren't really 9 or 11 judges score the contest – there is only one. But until the NPC and IFBB decide to define what figure actually is and can describe what kind of physiques they are looking for in some more specific way, one system would seem to be as good as another.
Nonethless, you do end up with some bizarre placings when the head judge has overlooked a competitor of great quality (most often because she simply isn't isn't well known enough yet) and you see her standing in the "tail end" group that contains women who, however aesthetic and athletic looking, are obviously not suited to success in figure competition. Seeing a swan standing there among the ducks you'd think the judges would be embarrassed. But physique judges seem to have an endless capacity for rationalization which protects them from admitting that mistakes have been made.
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As much as I know that I will be criticized again - I calculated PROS and CONS and decided to post this ANYWAY...
I would like to emphasize that I AM NOT TRYING to create the problem...instead I am trying to find a solution for everlasting problem we are all facing for numerous years. Subjectivity as a nature of judging IFBB events (bodybuilding, fitness and figure).
I know that many IFBB officials and athletes are reading this board so I am sure this will reach ALL THE PARTIES in no time...
Well, I am talking about SUBJECTIVITY as a nature of judging our bodybuilding shows...and while we can't measure, time or knockout anyone - we can certainly defeat our competitors IF somebody clarifies the judging criteria...and defines what is GOOD, BETTER...and/or THE BEST.
If competitors AND JUDGES would know what we all really want (we - as bodybuilding community) - maybe we could actually agree on something...that something being - judging!
After all competitors will know HOW TO PREPARE BETTER, judges would know how to judge, fans would be less angry or confused ???...or rather shocked with the results and some winners would possibly be at least somewhat ashamed [ accepting somebody's else title (money, glory...etc)...and I would not face another suspension ...or be told to - shut up..
Anyway, for years now we are dealing with inconsistent results and waiting for a changes...and those changes never came...Actually - things are getting worse and certainly not better and that's why I think it is time to speak up.
Did you ever wonder how judges really judge the show?
Do you think they have some point system? Some percentages(?), certain things that they are looking for (?), certain things they penalize or award athletes for (?)...Real MEASURABLE criteria?
Simply - they don't!
Judgment is given purely on subjective opinion and that could be PERSONAL PREFERENCE of the judge who is entitled to his own subjective opinion...
Well, in my opinion - judging should consider:
1- SHAPE, BALANCE, AESTHETICS, SYMMETRY, EXTREME V-TAPER, FLAT AND DEEP ABS, BEAUTY OF PHYSIQUE, HEALTHY SKIN...AND HEALTHY OVERALL APPEARANCE...as ONE ASPECT OF JUDGING
2- CONDITIONING, MUSCULARITY, EXTREME LEAN LOOK, DRYNESS, SEPARATION, STRIATIONS, TIE-INS, "GRAINY-NESS", "HARDNESS", TIGHT SKIN, "SHREDDED-NESS"...and other EXTREMES of similar nature...
But, here I would also consider muscle Glycogen storage - and FULLNESS as conditioning part of judging rather than MUSCLE MASS ASPECT of judging...
3- MUSCLE MASS, THICKNESS, WIDTH, ROUND MUSCLE BELLIES (could be considered in aspect #1 as well...)...and other extremes of similar nature...
4- PRESENTATION, POSING, ABILITY TO SHOW PHYSIQUE THE WAY IT SUPPOSE TO LOOK (not leaving it up for imagination of others to THINK what certain physique could look like IF presented correctly...), MISTAKE FREE POSING (#1- many competitors forget to squeeze certain muscles...and more often than not - judges would just go with: "well, if Jay squeezed his legs on Friday during the prejudging - he would have looked better so I would give him this pose considering that I know what his legs and physique looks like IF he posed correctly, #2 - many competitors let their "pregnancy show"...and that's a no-no, #3 - also many fail to find THE BEST WAY to do certain poses...etc...etc...), STAGE PRESENCE (standing in line up PERFECTLY...AT ALL TIMES), HITTING EVERY POSE WITH CONFIDENCE AND AUTHORITY, CHOREOGRAPHING ROUTINES with perfect transitions, SHOWING PHYSIQUE TO EMPHASIZE THE STRENGTH OF SOMEONES PHYSIQUE (and not the weaknesses...Many fail to realize that POSING ROUND is not being judged for actual posing or movement...Fat, out of shape ballet artist or out of shape professional dancer should not win the posing round by virtue of his posing skills...Posing round is PHYSIQUE ROUND where athletes could/should show their strengths USING POSES OTHER THAN MANDATORIES that present their physiques in that "special light" bodybuilders want to be known for...So, aesthetic guy could emphasize beauty of his physique, aesthetic look, perfect shape, symmetry and balance by doing EXACT POSES to exemplify WHAT HIS ATTRIBUTES ARE...
Conditioned guy on another hand could present his shredded physique by doing poses to show his shredded muscles (or maybe hide cellulite?)...and muscular guy should do as many muscular posses...thick guy presenting his thickness, wide guy his width...V-tapered guy his extreme V-taper...etc...etc
If someone succeeds in presentation of his strengths THAN AND ONLY THAN we could say OK - he should have place higher as he is: THIS (aesthetic, balanced, symmetrical...) or THAT (conditioned, more muscular, bigger, thicker, wider...)...
But, many times fans go with picture of their favorite champion AS THEY REMEMBER HIM from before - while only shadow of that physique is being displayed on the stage at the moment - yet "shadow" gets the same amount of points as "sentimental judgment" or "paid dues" treatment from the judges that ALSO consider what once was or what could have been (if in shape)...
WE NEED TO START JUDGING PHYSIQUES ON THE DAY OF THE CONTEST REGARDLESS OF NAMES, PREVIOUS OUTINGS...ETC...POLITICS ...
I am in a hurry actually so maybe I am rushing this a bit...but I will get back to make some points...or rather - maybe WE CAN ALL START NEW THREAD ABOUT JUDGING - and NOT to argue with judges and federation...Not to criticize but rather to START WORKING ON HELPING OUR OFFICIALS FINDING THE BEST WAY TO JUDGE...
To take that "subjectivity OUT" or at least reduce it to minimum...so we (ALL OF US WHO LOVE SPORT OF BODYBUILDING, ATHLETES AS WELL AS FANS) could have clear idea WHY some guy managed to place ahead of others...
Judges should be able to explain WHY they saw Jay superior to OTHERS at 2007 Mr. Olympia...(just as one of numerous examples).
Did they saw him better in:
1- SHAPE, BALANCE, AESTHETICS, SYMMETRY, EXTREME V-TAPER, FLAT AND DEEP ABS, BEAUTY OF PHYSIQUE, HEALTHY SKIN...AND HEALTHY OVERALL APPEARANCE...department?
I don't think so...as I see many beating Jay in this aspect of judging.
2- CONDITIONING, MUSCULARITY, EXTREME LEAN LOOK, DRYNESS, SEPARATION, STRIATIONS, TIE-INS, "GRAINY-NESS", HARDNESS, TIGHT SKIN, SHREDDED-NESS...and other EXTREMES of similar nature...
But, here I would also consider muscle Glycogen storage - and FULLNESS as conditioning part of judging rather than MUSCLE MASS ASPECT of judging...
I don't think so - AGAIN...
3- MUSCLE MASS, THICKNESS, WIDTH, ROUND MUSCLE BELLIES (could be considered in aspect #1 as well...)...and other extremes of similar nature...
Maybe in this one? So this is "holly grail" of bodybuilding - BIGGER IS BETTER AND NOTHING ELSE MATTERS?
4- PRESENTATION, POSING, ABILITY TO SHOW PHYSIQUE THE WAY IT SUPPOSE TO LOOK
Again...NOT the case (in my book)...
So, let's help our judges...which will ultimately help our sport.
Give your point of view...and we could at least start SOLVING THE PROBLEM - very easily...
And let's keep it NICE and CIVIL..without unnecessary attacks...
Again - I am looking for SOLUTION and not the ARGUMENT... and I hope we all do?
Damn you write long posts. Meth?
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John Hodgson
IFBB Pro
http://milossarcev.com/board/index.php?topic=6424.0
What is bodybuilding about.
« on: October 07, 2006, 02:35:51 PM »
I just posted the following in a section about Jay Cutler pre contest. I only wrote it in relation to the fact that someone posted a remark refering to the short guys staying off stage to avoid getting trampled on and not getting their lunch money taken from them by the big guys??
I feel this deserves a topic of it's own. I have been a Pro now since 1999 and stand at only 5ft 4" so definately come under the bracket of SHORT/SMALL in the Pro world. There are sadly a lot of haters out there on various boards but hey thats the internet for you a lot a faceless, behind the screen people. I would rather say it open honestly and to peoples faces as those who know me know I do.
Anyway this post is about how can we drive things forward for all concerned, ATHLETES, JUDGES AND FANS as I love this sport despite recent events at the spanish GP which Milos knows all to well about. This is what my post was on the other topic:
I find it somewhat amazing when guys give us short guys a tough time. Hey judging is about the whole package and perhaps people should not be overwhelmed by size.
I am the first to admit that the big guys draw attention but then if you start to look closer you should overcome the first impressions and then really work hard at viewing the complete package. Bodybuilding as Bev Francis quoted on the 1992 Mr Olympia video when asked what are judges looking for stated the following:
"Bodybuilding is about building the complete physique, the complete package. Someone may have lesser bodyparts but it does not flow as opposed to someone with lesser bodyparts but the body flows much better overall, combined with good condition and hardness. So it's about having the complete physique."
Now if all things are equal then the final say has to be size dictates and you cannot argue with that, but thats if all is equal.
Has the above really been adhered to since this famous and very correct analysis of the judges job by Bev Francis.
Also Lee Labrada a hero and the person I modelled myself on for my inspiration made an unfortunate quote when he retired:
"I have out grown the sport and more to the point the sport has out grown me"
Now hold on here, Lee placed ahead of some real big guys and names and rightly so (Paul Dillet in his prime, Kevin Levrone, Shawn Ray etc), but it appears that since that quote it may have been taken on board literally by some, I only hope that we can go back to looking closely at the whole physique no matter the size. The only other way would be to have and under 200/210lbs and over category so that we can get the best of both worlds and give some hope across the competitive scene and maybe generate some more interest for competitors and the crowd.
Thats my take it would be interesting to see others and I speak from the stage side of things and I do give my all. ALso this is a post I put up on my company site in the UK after the Spanish GP on my personal thoughts.
Hi all, well I was letting things settle before I gave you my account of the shows events. As you may have heard through the grape vine the judging could have been better, a lot better IMO and many others who competed, the show wasn't judged in a manner I and any athlete worth his/her salt in Bodybuilding would expect. I have been competing since 1993 and turned Pro in 1999 and have virtually enjoyed all the shows I have competed in
The Spainish show took things to another level and for me was simply unacceptable and was a massive slap in the face for many of the bodybuilders who turned up for this show, myself included. I think I speak for many (well I know I do as having spoken backstage with many) that the judging was farce. In the second round the muscularity round where you do your eight mandatory poses, only 10/12 athletes were compared out of a line up of nearly 30, yet they mangaed to place up to 17th ( I got placed 16th, certainly condition wasn't being rewarded but that’s not the issue here). How can the judges even place people without making ANY comparisons??? By this I mean Eddie Abbey was placed 10th yet never had one comparison. Not one UK bodybuilder was given any direct comparisons in the muscularity round, why??
I love this sport and have given my heart and sole, I turn up knowing I'm an underdog yet those who know me, know I bust my but to turn up in excellent shape and that is a trait I am respected for. Yet to be subjected to this type of judging made me very angry and upset, I wanted to cry, no seriously I was so close to breaking down it wasn't funny. All that prep, sacrifice, those who competed and those who follow the sport know what I mean and what bodybuilders put themselves through, denial, loneliness all the many other traits that make and separate bodybuilders apart from any other sport and society in general and for what, to be totally disregarded by a judging panel who I feel have a LOT of answers to give and explanation, to which I feel they will not be able to justify IMO, well you cannot justify not comparing athletes and then placing them how does that work???
I will be making my views know to the right people and hopefully this will be looked at. I will never ever compete in Spain again and I now only have faith really in the USA, UK and countries outside of the mainland European countries based on the events in Spain.
Milos Sarcev came backstage and saw how we were (various athletes backstage) and he also was very upset and like many of us feels strongly that this has to be addressed. I was going to stay quiet but enough is enough, I give too much year in year out I have a right to express this opinion. I do sincerely love this sport as you know and it has been a big part of me and I have given so much and I also lost my wife (maybe not directly because of BB) but it won't of helped, whom I loved so much, it still hurts to this day.
I hope this gets addressed and changes implemented for the benefit and good of the sport for both athletes and judges. I don’t know if I could take this again and I believe other bodybuilders feel the same.
All that I want is to be treated and judged fairly, is this too much to ask.
As you can see this isn't about being b*tchy or a bad loser but raising a serious concern on both fronts. Its because I care, put my heart and sole into this sport that I feel on all fronts it needs to be looked at closely and I do believe many others both competitive athletes, judges and fans want as well.
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Effective judging - accountable judging - requires everyone to know the value of each criteria relative to each other. How much is size worth? What of shape compared with conditioning? And so on.
That way, when looking at the judges scorecars, athletes can see where they need to improve for their next competition and just as importantly why they place where they did. Maybe the athletes and the fans will still disagree with the placings but at least they would be able to see the rationale for the placing.