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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Hugo Chavez on November 06, 2007, 01:21:28 PM
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This aired on the History Channel, I watched it last night. There are two plans for war with Iran. One light that just hits the suspected nuclear sites and one where they take out everything. The neocons who backed this documentary push for the larger scale attack as being the only feasible option. The planned attack is a shock and awe plan that dwarfs anything ever done before--several times larger than the attack on Iraq.
I thought we were done with listening to neocons but here they are, making their bogus wild case for war again...
History Channel's Beyond Top Secret - Iran 1-5
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Nov 23, UPDATE:
A plan to attack Iran swiftly and from above
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071122.wiran22/BNStory/International/home?pageRequested=all&print=true
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I'm a little torn on this. If we are going to stay the course in Iraq, we cannot sit back and do nothing if Iran is supplying insurgents. Also very concerned about them obtaining nuclear weapons. Tough issue.
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Last I checked there was still no smoking gun that Iran has supplied anyone in Iraq. They're even letting go the guys they nabbed telling everyone in the media belonged to the Iranian Revolutionary Guards. Of couse you won't hear this on Hannity or Rush's show, just the part where they nabbed them as Irania Revolutionary Guard members.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071106/wl_nm/iraq_dc_4
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Last I checked there was still no smoking gun that Iran has supplied anyone in Iraq. They're even letting go the guys they nabbed telling everyone in the media belonged to the Iranian Revolutionary Guards. Of couse you won't hear this on Hannity or Rush's show, just the part where they nabbed them as Irania Revolutionary Guard members.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071106/wl_nm/iraq_dc_4
May not be a smoking gun, but if they are supplying them, we have to do something. Failing to do anything could affect the safety of our troops.
We can't ignore the nuclear issue either.
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May not be a smoking gun, but if they are supplying them, we have to do something. Failing to do anything could affect the safety of our troops.
We can't ignore the nuclear issue either.
Don't you think we should have a smoking gun or "if" before diving into full blown WWIII.
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Don't you think we should have a smoking gun or "if" before diving into full blown WWIII.
We shouldn't do anything to start WWIII, but I'm not sure a smoking gun is really necessary. We definitely need solid intelligence.
I just can't see standing by and letting them supply the enemy (if that is the case). I have expressed my frustration to some of my military friends that we cannot identify supply lines and just cut them off. Apparently it's not that simple. Maybe headhunter has some input?
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UN nuclear watchdog chief:
"But have we seen Iran having the nuclear material that can readily be used into a weapon? No. Have we seen an active weaponization program? No." If there is actual evidence, ElBaradei said he would welcome seeing it.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/10/28/america/NA-GEN-US-Iran.php
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UN nuclear watchdog chief:
"But have we seen Iran having the nuclear material that can readily be used into a weapon? No. Have we seen an active weaponization program? No." If there is actual evidence, ElBaradei said he would welcome seeing it.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/10/28/america/NA-GEN-US-Iran.php
The passage immediately preceding those quotes:
"We have information that there has been maybe some studies about possible weaponization," said Mohamed ElBaradei, who leads the International Atomic Energy Agency. "That's why we have said that we cannot give Iran a pass right now, because there is still a lot of question marks."
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The passage immediately preceding those quotes:
"We have information that there has been maybe some studies about possible weaponization," said Mohamed ElBaradei, who leads the International Atomic Energy Agency. "That's why we have said that we cannot give Iran a pass right now, because there is still a lot of question marks."
yes, I can read :D "maybe some studies" "possible" All this is why it isn't case closed which is absolutely understandable. My point! Zero evidence of weapons program. Neocon point: they're about to launch :D
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Also, those studies, the evidense againt Iran, hilarious where it came from :D
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15562.htm
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yes, I can read :D "maybe some studies" "possible" All this is why it isn't case closed which is absolutely understandable. My point! Zero evidence of weapons program. Neocon point: they're about to launch :D
I can read a little too. :) Both zero evidence and imminent attack are probably too strong. There must be a little smoke if the UN "cannot give Iran a pass right now." We'll see.
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Here's a little tidbit that's disgusting... If they're closer than they were to a nuclear weapon, guess who you can thank... yea, as freaking usual the C*I*A... They handed Iran blueprints for the triggers and the exuse provided is lousy BS.
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The general public does not have access to information regarding what Iran is doing in Iraq. Talk to any SF guy working over there and u here stories etc. There were stories in the print media of Iraqi insurgents receiving training in Lebannon and returning to Iraq...they caugt guys...whether they release them or not, they caught em...and thats the guys we know about. If it walks like a duck....look the case for war with iran is very easy to make. We have options..bomb the dog snot out of them, forment revolution, crush them economically, combinations of all 3 etc etc. Everybody wants proof of this or that. Dig around...just because some uninformed liberal site says there is no proof, doesn't mean its not true. Iran is up to their ass in southern Iraq and have been since before we invaded. They want nukes and many in the Arab wolrd would love to see Iran get frog stomped because of it.
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The general public does not have access to information regarding what Iran is doing in Iraq. Talk to any SF guy working over there and u here stories etc. There were stories in the print media of Iraqi insurgents receiving training in Lebannon and returning to Iraq...they caugt guys...whether they release them or not, they caught em...and thats the guys we know about. If it walks like a duck....look the case for war with iran is very easy to make. We have options..bomb the dog snot out of them, forment revolution, crush them economically, combinations of all 3 etc etc. Everybody wants proof of this or that. Dig around...just because some uninformed liberal site says there is no proof, doesn't mean its not true. Iran is up to their ass in southern Iraq and have been since before we invaded. They want nukes and many in the Arab wolrd would love to see Iran get frog stomped because of it.
"uninformed liberal site" ::) You mean the IAEA ::) HH6 ::) With this war, we lead to so much death and destruction I can't believe you're just willing to sign up, no proof after what these fucking clown neocons have done... Jesus, you thought terrorist's thrived and grew under the Iraq/Afgan wars, wait till you see how things looks after this... I hate to attack you, but it's people like you that will bring us all down... This is it, it's happening, they've wanted this to happen for so fucking long, now they'll have their little endgame... so it is written by weirdos, so it shall be done bla bla bal ::)
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Yeah uninformed liberal sites..multiple....they all seen no proof because they hate Bush, they can't divorce themselves from Iraq nor the WMD thing. Attacking Iran should be viewed on its own merits...I've also said for oh i don't know abouta million posts that I don't advocate attacking Iran in any way unlless destabilizing them from within, with sanctions, CIA dirty tricks etc..as we have done during the Cold War, is attacking them. I thinka stronger case could be made to attack them as opposed to Iraq. As far as proof.....yeah ive seen proof..based on people I've talked to and the general climate. Its like talking to a cop, they know what all the bad guys are doing. I also don't advocate attacking Iran based on a Conversation I had with a Pakistani Col i got to talk to while overseas. He laid out what would happen in Afghnistan, based on what he said, I didn't think attacking would be a good idea. But i won't be mute on the case for war nor how easily we'll crush them. Its what happens after thats the major problem.
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We can't ignore the nuclear issue either.
why is everyone so concerned about this? even if they get nukes, what the hell are they going to do with them? iran is no threat to us at all.
if this bothers you then where is the concern for pakistan, an islamic nation twice the size of iran, already possessing nukes, whose western friendly leader is barely holding on and will likely soon be replaced by a hardline islamic 'government' unfriendly towards the united states?
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why is everyone so concerned about this? even if they get nukes, what the hell are they going to do with them? iran is no threat to us at all.
if this bothers you then where is the concern for pakistan, an islamic nation twice the size of iran, already possessing nukes, whose western friendly leader is barely holding on and will likely soon be replaced by a hardline islamic 'government' unfriendly towards the united states?
Anytime a country that wants to wipe us and one of our allies (Israel) off the face of the earth is trying to obtain WMDs, I'm concerned. If you're not, you should be.
Not a whole lot we can do about Pakistan. They already have them.
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Anytime a country that wants to wipe us and one of our allies (Israel) off the face of the earth is trying to obtain WMDs, I'm concerned. If you're not, you should be.
Not a whole lot we can do about Pakistan. They already have them.
israel is the reason they have a problem with us to begin with.
let israel handle their own shit, iran can do what they please with them.
even if iran gets nukes, they wont do shit to us. obviously they know if they did ANYTHING then we would wipe THEM off the map. think about it from their perspective. they want them for defensive/deterrence purposes, not for offensive aggressive purposes like teh Fox News seems to want us to think ::)
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Yeah uninformed liberal sites..multiple....they all seen no proof because they hate Bush, they can't divorce themselves from Iraq nor the WMD thing. Attacking Iran should be viewed on its own merits...I've also said for oh i don't know abouta million posts that I don't advocate attacking Iran in any way unlless destabilizing them from within, with sanctions, CIA dirty tricks etc..as we have done during the Cold War, is attacking them. I thinka stronger case could be made to attack them as opposed to Iraq. As far as proof.....yeah ive seen proof..based on people I've talked to and the general climate. Its like talking to a cop, they know what all the bad guys are doing. I also don't advocate attacking Iran based on a Conversation I had with a Pakistani Col i got to talk to while overseas. He laid out what would happen in Afghnistan, based on what he said, I didn't think attacking would be a good idea. But i won't be mute on the case for war nor how easily we'll crush them. Its what happens after thats the major problem.
Hello??? Are we on the same page, I guess not.... Where did I list uninformed liberal sites? The IAEA is not a liberal blog ::)
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Beach, HH6, I'm curious... The same treaty that holds Iran to a commitment of not obtaining nukes is to my knowledge the same one Israel refused to sign. Do you think it would be fair that we insist all sides in the region lose their WMD? I do, bigtime... If my enemy had nukes, I would want nukes no matter what... If my enemy didn't have nukes, I would be much more willing to drop such ambitions... Or is it truly OK for us to give a pass on some nations and get all strict with others in the region? Also, if the United States pulls from weapons treaties at will, why should other nations hold to signed treaties? Doesn't it kind of take all the power out of treaties when the world superpower disregards them at will?
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israel is the reason they have a problem with us to begin with.
let israel handle their own shit, iran can do what they please with them.
even if iran gets nukes, they wont do shit to us. obviously they know if they did ANYTHING then we would wipe THEM off the map. think about it from their perspective. they want them for defensive/deterrence purposes, not for offensive aggressive purposes like teh Fox News seems to want us to think ::)
I understand where you're come from. You may be giving them too much credit. I just have a hard time trusting Iran. I remember seeing images on TV as a kid showing Iranians (including children) chanting "death to America" and burning American flags. That really colors my perception.
And Israel will always be our ally. One of the few friends we have in the Middle East.
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I understand where you're come from. You may be giving them too much credit. I just have a hard time trusting Iran. I remember seeing images on TV as a kid showing Iranians (including children) chanting "death to America" and burning American flags. That really colors my perception.
And Israel will always be our ally. One of the few friends we have in the Middle East.
Was that the images taken right after we declaired them to be part of the axis of evil, right after they had helped us bigtime in Afganistan... Go figure... Or was that after one of the several times the C*I*A subversively ran amok on Iran? I can't help but wonder if the tables were turned and they had done the same things to us, would you see people here calling for Death to Iran? I know they already are, just imagine tho...
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for the record, because I'm sure some will assume, I have no love for Iran's government. I'm guilty of favoring Chavez, but Achmadmanwhatever is a nut.
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If the US was small and had a lot of oil under us,
And Iran was powerful and needed fuel desperately...
They'd be doing the same shit to us - surrounding our borders, putting us in tough positions, and ramping up the war effort.
Big hungry animals will always attack small animals who have all the food. It's just animal instinct - and it affects all of us, from people to ants.
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Was that the images taken right after we declaired them to be part of the axis of evil, right after they had helped us bigtime in Afganistan... Go figure... Or was that after one of the several times the C*I*A subversively ran amok on Iran? I can't help but wonder if the tables were turned and they had done the same things to us, would you see people here calling for Death to Iran? I know they already are, just imagine tho...
I'm not sure. It was more than 20 years ago.
I don't think their hatred was caused by our foreign policy. Based on what I've heard from people who have spent time in the Middle East, much of that part of the world hates our entire "Western" way of life. They believe we are evil, corrupt, etc. and there is really nothing we can do to change that. Dude, they call us "The Great Satan." :-\
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I'm not sure. It was more than 20 years ago.
I don't think their hatred was caused by our foreign policy. based on what I've heard from people who have spent time in the Middle East, much of that part of the world hates our entire "Western" way of life. They believe we are evil, corrupt, etc. and there is really nothing we can do to change that. Dude, they call us "The Great Satan." :-\
not actually true in Iran, we completely earned our reputation there. Note that after 9/11 most of Iran all the way to the top was very sympathetic to America denouncing terrorism... Often criticism is not against the people of America, but US policy. Without their help, toppling the taliban would have been much harder. The possibilities after 9/11, mended ties and a path toward unprecedented cooperation with Iran. But we didn't get every last thing ASAP from Iran... The result, Bush decided to just say fuck ya all and declare them part of the axis of evil... wow, the diplomacy skills... oh brother... Now, as I said, our rep with Iranians is well earned. You can go into museums over there that display American subversive influence over the last half century in Iranian affairs... Had we not gone down these roads, we might be in a very different place with Iran today... You mention 20 years ago, go figure, you mean when we were arming Saddam to the hilt to fight Iran? I can't imagine what their beef would be... Now here we are today, openly admitting to having special forces in Iran working up opposition and supporting the MEK??? MEK??? come on they're just as bad if not worse? Here we are, after totally fucking up their country via subversive crap acting once again like we don't truly give a rats ass about freedom and democracy for the people there... MEK??? oh brother... Hard to fathom why they have such opinions of us...
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Beach, HH6, I'm curious... The same treaty that holds Iran to a commitment of not obtaining nukes is to my knowledge the same one Israel refused to sign. Do you think it would be fair that we insist all sides in the region lose their WMD? I do, bigtime... If my enemy had nukes, I would want nukes no matter what... If my enemy didn't have nukes, I would be much more willing to drop such ambitions... Or is it truly OK for us to give a pass on some nations and get all strict with others in the region? Also, if the United States pulls from weapons treaties at will, why should other nations hold to signed treaties? Doesn't it kind of take all the power out of treaties when the world superpower disregards them at will?
hahah beserker, how dare you bring unbiased reason into this.
great post
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hahah beserker, how dare you bring unbiased reason into this.
great post
notice the great answers I got to those questions :D
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I understand where you're come from. You may be giving them too much credit. I just have a hard time trusting Iran. I remember seeing images on TV as a kid showing Iranians (including children) chanting "death to America" and burning American flags. That really colors my perception.
And Israel will always be our ally. One of the few friends we have in the Middle East.
remember beach thats the image they wanted to feed you, thats exactly what they wanted people to think.
while lots of them may have been calling for 'DEATH TO AMERICA' , consider how many americans are calling for 'DEATH TO IRAN'.
it works both ways. the publics' viewpoint is heavily influenced by the politically biased info the media spams them with. its the same everywhere
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Beach, HH6, I'm curious... The same treaty that holds Iran to a commitment of not obtaining nukes is to my knowledge the same one Israel refused to sign. Do you think it would be fair that we insist all sides in the region lose their WMD? I do, bigtime... If my enemy had nukes, I would want nukes no matter what... If my enemy didn't have nukes, I would be much more willing to drop such ambitions... Or is it truly OK for us to give a pass on some nations and get all strict with others in the region? Also, if the United States pulls from weapons treaties at will, why should other nations hold to signed treaties? Doesn't it kind of take all the power out of treaties when the world superpower disregards them at will?
I think disarming is much more difficult than preventing a country from obtaining WMDs. Once they have them, the genie is out of the bottle. It might be fair to ask all sides in the region to give up their nukes, but it's not going to happen.
The cold hard truth is not all nations deserve the same amount of deference when it comes to nukes. We have to worry about Libya but not Canada, Cuba but not the UK, North Korea but not Israel, etc.
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Fair...who cares about fair, i'm an American. The deal with Iran prior to 1979 was all about the Soviet Union...nothing else. Nobody cared on either side what they had to do as long as they could do something to try and destabilize the other. If that ment fighting or supporting proxy wars, dictators or subverting governments, so be it. We didn't do this stuff in a vaccum...we had the Soviet bear to deal with. Iran shouldn't have nukes because they're not stable. U guys all assume everything is on a level playing field. These guys have a long history of supporting terrorism, commiting acts against us and our allies. I don't really care why they hate us, I have a good grasp of history. The point is that they do, which means they hate u to Bserker, and they would rather see us go. I don't advocate an invasion because it would cost the lives of more Americans and our allies. I am all for supporting groups like u mentioned...better proxies then our own troops. SOF fought for 10 years in Central and South America.....worked out fine. I don't recall any ridiculous parades or protests calling for death to Iran..in fact I don't think I've ever heard Bush say "Death to iran". Regime change sure...but not Death to Iran. Most countries are their to provide a vibrant economy and want peace for their people. Some don't, like Iran and need to go. Treaties, scraps of paper are worthless with people like this. History has shown us that time and time again that we;ll come out on the short end of the stick. Topple them from within or persued the mullahs to get rid of Amedinijad, whatever,......put ina moderate who says a few nice things about Israel and we'll forget the whole thing. Pull the plug on nuke power or come up with a better solution to ensure they can't make bombs.
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Nov 23, UPDATE:
A plan to attack Iran swiftly and from above
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071122.wiran22/BNStory/International/home?pageRequested=all&print=true
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for BB and HH6:
"When U.S. explosives experts went to investigate, they discovered they were not Iranian after all."
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2008/05/iraq-the-elusiv.html
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I'm a little torn on this. If we are going to stay the course in Iraq, we cannot sit back and do nothing if Iran is supplying insurgents. Also very concerned about them obtaining nuclear weapons. Tough issue.
yanno how you get em to stop killing us IN THEIR PART OF THE WORLD...
LEAVE THEIR part of the world
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yanno how you get em to stop killing us IN THEIR PART OF THE WORLD...
LEAVE THEIR part of the world
LOL... no logic please, this is a political forum :D
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LOL... no logic please, this is a political forum :D
i know...repbs are allergic to logic...they wanna spread jesusism all over the world..thru violence (war)
which incidentally is EXACTLY what al-queda wants to do except with islam
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We shouldn't do anything to start WWIII, but I'm not sure a smoking gun is really necessary.[...]
That's fucking bullshit. What you guys want is another world war. Fucking come out and say it. We're not 5 years old.
Face it, some of yous are incapable of sharing the earth with other beings. In my opinion the suspicion factor you people so quickly elude to when talking about "national security" or the "security" of our soldiers is the biggest reason for the mass scale murder rampage our military has taken part of, actively or passively, in the past few years.
People around the globe hate our guts precisely because, to some of us (although I exclude myself,) their lives are just a Tomahack away from "us" "suspecting" they want to harm us. Which morally translates into a "we attack you whenever my sorry, retarded, imbecile, devoid of self-esteem ass wants to".
That is why other people fly planes into our buildings.
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If EVEN HALF of the money we spend in building WMD were spent in helping victims of earthquakes, sunamis and else, the American soldier'd be gettin pussy all over the globe.
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That's fucking bullshit. What you guys want is another world war. Fucking come out and say it. We're not 5 years old.
Face it, some of yous are incapable of sharing the earth with other beings. In my opinion the suspicion factor you people so quickly elude to when talking about "national security" or the "security" of our soldiers is the biggest reason for the mass scale murder rampage our military has taken part of, actively or passively, in the past few years.
People around the globe hate our guts precisely because, to some of us (although I exclude myself,) their lives are just a Tomahack away from "us" "suspecting" they want to harm us. Which morally translates into a "we attack you whenever my sorry, retarded, imbecile, devoid of self-esteem ass wants to".
That is why other people fly planes into our buildings.
COMPLETELY AGREE!
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Fair...who cares about fair, i'm an American.
spoken like a true bushie
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That's fucking bullshit. What you guys want is another world war. Fucking come out and say it. We're not 5 years old.
Face it, some of yous are incapable of sharing the earth with other beings. In my opinion the suspicion factor you people so quickly elude to when talking about "national security" or the "security" of our soldiers is the biggest reason for the mass scale murder rampage our military has taken part of, actively or passively, in the past few years.
People around the globe hate our guts precisely because, to some of us (although I exclude myself,) their lives are just a Tomahack away from "us" "suspecting" they want to harm us. Which morally translates into a "we attack you whenever my sorry, retarded, imbecile, devoid of self-esteem ass wants to".
That is why other people fly planes into our buildings.
::)
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Some people havent learnt shit from the whole Iraq mess, they have a back up excuse for any reason to go into a bogged down war with yet another country. Unbelievable.
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Some people havent learnt shit from the whole Iraq mess
some people are shocked at how stupid the arghans and iraqis are when they get brain washed by al-queda while not realizing they themselves are also brainwashed in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY by the neocons
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some people are shocked at how stupid the arghans and iraqis are when they get brain washed by al-queda while not realizing they themselves are also brainwashed in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY by the neocons
bingo
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Hello??? Are we on the same page, I guess not.... Where did I list uninformed liberal sites? The IAEA is not a liberal blog ::)
I truest the IAEA only when they agree with the USA. I can't trust Euro's to safeguard my country, sorry!
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bingo
Liberals too :)
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Liberals too :)
everyone is a preceptual windown to the world...
the liberal preception however is the least skewed...
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everyone is a preceptual windown to the world...
the liberal preception however is the least skewed...
According to you. Nothing more skewed than believing in Global Warming being caused by man in lieu of the ever present Water Vapor or believing terrorists can be talked into changing their minds, or bitching about gas prices and Saudi Arabia while campaigning to ensure no new refineries are built or oil drilling happens off the coast.