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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: militarymuscle69 on November 07, 2007, 04:04:05 AM
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Average wait times in Canada and England as reported by the Fraser Institute (Canada) and the House of Commons Natilnal Stastics (England)
(Fraser Institute, Focuses on the role competitive markets play in providing for the economic and social well-being of Canadians. www.fraserinstitute.org)
Canada:
Cardio= 5 weeks
Neuro= 10.7 weeks
Ortho= 24.2 weeks
General=5.7 weeks
Opthhamology= 11.8 weeks
Gynecology= 6.6 weeks (and you wonder why Jag's puss stinks)
Urology= 5.1 weeks
England
Cardio= 6.4 weeks
Neuro= 6.6 weeks
Ortho= 10.2 weeks
General= 7.4 weeks
Opthhamology= 6.8 weeks
Gynecology= 8.1 weeks
Urology= 6.2 weeks
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Fraser Institute isn't exactly known for being neutral on issues.
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Are the numbers wrong?
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You do realise that in the UK you can still have private health care right?
You even don't have to pay as much into the NHS.
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You do realise that in the UK you can still have private health care right?
You even don't have to pay as much into the NHS.
But do NHS and private see the same doctors? In other words, does having NHS effect the wait times of private?
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But do NHS and private see the same doctors? In other words, does having NHS effect the wait times of private?
In England the existence of the NHS makes the majority of the populace use it's doctor, dental and hospital facilities, lowering the demand stress on the private sector.
The private sector is absolutely awesome if you have the dosh (none existant waiting times etc... [unless of course you need a kidney or new heart]). Depending on your job prestige you may get it all free via the employer.
I honestly believe a national health service has made the private sector very healthy in Britain.
Business is booming for them (private sector) ATM.
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Socialized health care won't benefit anyone that can afford their own healthcare at this moment.
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Socialized health care won't benefit anyone that can afford their own healthcare at this moment.
What about the 40+ mil people without healthcare?
Those people sub-human, unworthy of treatment?
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What about the 40+ mil people without healthcare?
Those people sub-human, unworthy of treatment?
The beauty of America is that you can attain anything you want. if you drop out of highschool, get addicted to drugs or choose to spend your paycheck on a SUV as opposed to helth care then to bad
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The beauty of America is that you can attain anything you want. if you drop out of highschool, get addicted to drugs or choose to spend your paycheck on a SUV as opposed to helth care then to bad
This is such a stupid comment on so many levels. Idiotic beyond belief.
You can attain anything you want if you're Chinese, African or American. Maybe life has been one sweet ride for you without any collisions; but believe it or not certain uncontrollable events during many peoples lives lead to not being able to afford private health care.
You are a mental midget.
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monster misconceptions...
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monster misconceptions...
Monster "input" from a "moderator"! ::)
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Monster "input" from a "moderator"! ::)
before you didn't want me to provide input, now you do... make up your mind... For some, a wait is better than nothing at all. Plus I don't believe there are any current plans to do away with choice in America. If you've got your plan you like, it's my understanding that you don't have to change over to any universal system. No politician has indicated that would be so. So it adds up to a misconception noting what you will get... No offense meant to you MM69.
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Don't forget your taxes will go through the roof.
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before you didn't want me to provide input, now you do... make up your mind... For some, a wait is better than nothing at all. Plus I don't believe there are any current plans to do away with choice in America. If you've got your plan you like, it's my understanding that you don't have to change over to any universal system. No politician has indicated that would be so. So it adds up to a misconception noting what you will get... No offense meant to you MM69.
???
Don't forget your taxes will go through the roof.
Like I said, in Britain you can opt out to some degree. No government pension/health care tho.
Life > Taxes
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This is such a stupid comment on so many levels. Idiotic beyond belief.
You can attain anything you want if you're Chinese, African or American. Maybe life has been one sweet ride for you without any collisions; but believe it or not certain uncontrollable events during many peoples lives lead to not being able to afford private health care.
You are a mental midget.
We have medical care assistance for people with uncontrolable circumstances (medicare, medicaid) but universal health care will give health care to those dropout, drug addicts I was talking about.
I have in no way had a sweet ride. Quite the contrary, but as a college dropout with a pregnant GF at age 19 I had to make a choice. I chose to join the military and get the health care that I needed for my family.
Every american begins life with the same chances, and there are plenty of sucess stoires of people born to drug heads, homeless etc to prove that.
"'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury."
That is all these people want. Are there Americans that are simply hard on their luck, sure there are. But 90% of the people that will recieve free health care could buy a few less cases of beer, few less cartons of cigarettes, eat less fast food, shut off their cable and internet (as I have had to do in the past) and be able to afford private health care.
I am 100% for health care for children 18 and under. But once they hot 15, 16, 17 they need to be taught that they will need to take school seriously in order to provide for a future family. Not that they can coast through and depend on me to pay for their health care.
So take your handouts somewhere else.
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Like I said, in Britain you can opt out to some degree. No government pension/health care tho.
Life > Taxes
Don't know anything about Britain, but I have talked to more than one Canadian about their tax burden. Their taxes are ridiculously high.
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That is all these people want. Are there Americans that are simply hard on their luck, sure there are. But 90% of the people that will recieve free health care could buy a few less cases of beer, few less cartons of cigarettes, eat less fast food, shut off their cable and internet (as I have had to do in the past) and be able to afford private health care.
I am 100% for health care for children 18 and under. But once they hot 15, 16, 17 they need to be taught that they will need to take school seriously in order to provide for a future family. Not that they can coast through and depend on me to pay for their health care.
Now we're getting somewhere. I agree to some extent, especially with the second paragraph.
What angers me about the NHS is that is a flat universal fee. People who eat / smoke themselves to death should pay a higher price. It's not about me subsidizing their sick habits.
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Now we're getting somewhere. I agree to some extent, especially with the second paragraph.
What angers me about the NHS is that is a flat universal fee. People who eat / smoke themselves to death should pay a higher price. It's not about me subsidizing their sick habits.
If I were to set up a universal health care system it owuld look something like this:
1) Flat fee for participants that is based on income
2) Seperate medical clinics for UHC participants so that it doesn't infringe on thos paying full price, however major surgeries would be performed at central hospitals
3) Mandatory to carry insurance on children under 18 again with the fee based on income.
4) Taxes from health problem issues (cigarettes, alcohol, fast food) used to cover extra costs not covered by flat fee
MM69 For Pres!!
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Don't know anything about Britain, but I have talked to more than one Canadian about their tax burden. Their taxes are ridiculously high.
The UK system delivers better results at a savings of 40% per person when compared to the US privatized system.
With the US system you get:
*No coverage for 49 million people
*higher costs
*worse results
Sounds like a winner to me.
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The UK system delivers better results at a savings of 40% per person when compared to the US privatized system.
With the US system you get:
*No coverage for 49 million people
*higher costs
*worse results
Sounds like a winner to me.
How will universal health care solve the quality problem. Also how will it affect the 251 million people that do have health care? I can tell you from experienece it will be worse.
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How will universal health care solve the quality problem. Also how will it affect the 251 million people that do have health care? I can tell you from experienece it will be worse.
That's the problem with the US. The numbers are just on a whole other level.
It's not like it's worth the experimentation with 251 Million people to get a universal health care system.
I believe it will benefit the US in the long run, but the execution is going to be an extreme challenge to overcome.
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How will universal health care solve the quality problem. Also how will it affect the 251 million people that do have health care? I can tell you from experienece it will be worse.
On a per person basis, the Universal healthcare provides higher quality than the US privatized system. But rationing does occur in the sense that elective surgeries have a waiting list.
I think that's a small price to pay for universal coverage, better results and cheaper costs.
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being in the military we are part of a universal health care system every day. I am thankful for the money I save but it does come at a quality cost. The doctors aren't near as good, the waits are longer, and the facilities aren't near as good as when we are sent down town.
Democrats need to keep their handouts for someone else. Handouts only make society lazy.
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The UK system delivers better results at a savings of 40% per person when compared to the US privatized system.
With the US system you get:
*No coverage for 49 million people
*higher costs
*worse results
Sounds like a winner to me.
What's the tax burden in the UK?
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What's the tax burden in the UK?
What's the aggregate cost of 49 million people seeking emergency and longterm healthcare b/c their little freckle turned into a malignancy?
What's the cost to the UK taxpayer? I would have to look that up. But consider this, the UHC cost of coverage is spread amongst the british people just as it is with any private insurer. That's the essence of insurance: a shared risk by many to reduce a catastrophic effect on the few.
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What's the aggregate cost of 49 million people seeking emergency and longterm healthcare b/c their little freckle turned into a malignancy?
What's the cost to the UK taxpayer? I would have to look that up. But consider this, the UHC cost of coverage is spread amongst the british people just as it is with any private insurer. That's the essence of insurance: a shared risk by many to reduce a catastrophic effect on the few.
I've debated this with Berserker, but I think the number of people who are uninsured is not synonymous with the number of people who have no access to healthcare. In other words, I don't accept that 49 million number. Sounds misleading to me. The quality of care is definitely a legitimate issue, but I think most Americans (and even illegals) have access to healthcare.
If the cost to the UK taxpayer is anything like Canada, then the system is too expensive IMO. Giving half your income to the government (Canada)? Sheesh.
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"What you will get with socialized health care"
MRSA :o
Oh and the 'post code' lottery! I'll let my mate Norris explain that one...
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"What you will get with socialized health care"
MRSA :o
Oh and the 'post code' lottery! I'll let my mate Norris explain that one...
NHS is a mess no doubt, but I think universal healthcare is necessary.
Where've yah been laddy?
PS Manchester United 3-0 Dynamo Kiev
How are Leeds doing in the Champions League?
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I've debated this with Berserker, but I think the number of people who are uninsured is not synonymous with the number of people who have no access to healthcare. In other words, I don't accept that 49 million number. Sounds misleading to me. The quality of care is definitely a legitimate issue, but I think most Americans (and even illegals) have access to healthcare.
If the cost to the UK taxpayer is anything like Canada, then the system is too expensive IMO. Giving half your income to the government (Canada)? Sheesh.
The question is, do these people have access to preventive care before the small problem turns into a costly emergency? That answer is no. Emergency care? Yes, they have access, but by that time it is too late and too costly to be remotely efficient.
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The question is, do these people have access to preventive care before the small problem turns into a costly emergency? That answer is no. Emergency care? Yes, they have access, but by that time it is too late and too costly to be remotely efficient.
Sure they do. There are clinics, state/county hospitals, Medicare, Medicaid, and state equivalents that provide preventive care. And everyone can get emergency care because of anti-patient dumping laws. Do some still fall through the cracks? Yes. Is the quality of care probably not all that great? Yes. But to say 49 million don't have access to healthcare just doesn't sound right to me.
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NHS is a mess no doubt, but I think universal healthcare is necessary.
Where've yah been laddy?
PS Manchester United 3-0 Dynamo Kiev
How are Leeds doing in the Champions League?
It's a mess because the government is so obsessed with targets. Yes waiting list have come down, but at what cost?
Leeds. We're doing great 8)
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It's a mess because the government is so obsessed with targets. Yes waiting list have come down, but at what cost?
Leeds. We're doing great 8)
Haha yeah, really is impressive. Probable qualification after the initial point deficit is sick :o
Shame it's the third league tho ;)
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Sure they do. There are clinics, state/county hospitals, Medicare, Medicaid, and state equivalents that provide preventive care. And everyone can get emergency care because of anti-patient dumping laws. Do some still fall through the cracks? Yes. Is the quality of care probably not all that great? Yes. But to say 49 million don't have access to healthcare just doesn't sound right to me.
And how do the working poor and destitute afford visits to the clinic? That's right, they get onto payment plans which they default on and the rest of us pick up the tab anyways. Ever wonder why aspirin costs $20 at hospital?
Emergency care is a given. That's never been a question.
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And how do the working poor and destitute afford visits to the clinic? That's right, they get onto payment plans which they default on and the rest of us pick up the tab anyways. Ever wonder why aspirin costs $20 at hospital?
Emergency care is a given. That's never been a question.
I think one of the primary value of clinics is they can provide free and/or nominal cost immunizations. That's prevention. The working poor and destitute can qualify for Medicaid and their state equivalents.
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I think one of the primary value of clinics is they can provide free and/or nominal cost immunizations. That's prevention. The working poor and destitute can qualify for Medicaid and their state equivalents.
Well that covers immunization. What about every other malady under the sun? The working poor and destitute may not qualify for Medicaid.
You also do not address the underinsured.
UHC costs less, has better results and is for the good of the vast majority of our population. The privatized system you support is an anachronism held afloat by vested interests in the insurance field.
Let's watch our insurance dollars spent on advertising, golf tournament sponsorships, executive comp., lavish corporate headquarters, company jets, Footbal Stadiums...and all the rest that goes along with privatized insurance.
Privatized healthcare is inefficient and even wasteful compared to UHC.
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Average wait times in Canada and England as reported by the Fraser Institute (Canada) and the House of Commons Natilnal Stastics (England)
(Fraser Institute, Focuses on the role competitive markets play in providing for the economic and social well-being of Canadians. www.fraserinstitute.org)
Canada:
Cardio= 5 weeks
Neuro= 10.7 weeks
Ortho= 24.2 weeks
General=5.7 weeks
Opthhamology= 11.8 weeks
Gynecology= 6.6 weeks (and you wonder why Jag's puss stinks)
Urology= 5.1 weeks
England
Cardio= 6.4 weeks
Neuro= 6.6 weeks
Ortho= 10.2 weeks
General= 7.4 weeks
Opthhamology= 6.8 weeks
Gynecology= 8.1 weeks
Urology= 6.2 weeks
Can you please post USA wait times?
I'm comparing apples to black holes here lol... I wanna see our edge
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Well that covers immunization. What about every other malady under the sun? The working poor and destitute may not qualify for Medicaid.
You also do not address the underinsured.
UHC costs less, has better results and is for the good of the vast majority of our population. The privatized system you support is an anachronism held afloat by vested interests in the insurance field.
Let's watch our insurance dollars spent on advertising, golf tournament sponsorships, executive comp., lavish corporate headquarters, company jets, Footbal Stadiums...and all the rest that goes along with privatized insurance.
Privatized healthcare is inefficient and even wasteful compared to UHC.
I think many, if not most, of the working poor and destitute qualify for Medicaid, Medicare, and their state equivalents. Yes there are probably some that fall through the cracks and have no access to healthcare at all.
We were talking about the purported 49 million uninsured. IMO, that number is inflated and/or misleading.
Privatized healthcare isn't perfect. I have no love for insurance companies. We had HMSA here raising rates while earning huge profits and sitting on a half billion dollar reserve. >:( Still, I'd rather let the marketplace handle this, warts and all, then create another government monstrosity that will cost everyone more money. We have made great strides without federalizing the entire healthcare system (for example, every employer in Hawaii must provide healthcare insurance to all employees who work more than 20 hours a week). We don't need the government taking this thing over.
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Socialized health care won't benefit anyone that can afford their own healthcare at this moment.
It's even worse than that... Everyone who has health insurance at this moment is going to pay more money to finance the insurance for those who don't >:(
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hey jackass, medicare is "socialized medicine" and people choose their own doctor (unlike the military) and never wait months for care. your argument sucks just like military healthcare.
That's a good point about Medicare.
The problem with privatized care can be broken down this way: it does not offer preventive care to 1/6 of our population and that translates into expensive emergency treatments b/c the disease/malady was not treated early. Also, the profit motive of big insurance is driving our cost of coverage through the roof. Small businesses cannot afford to insure workers anymore.
Then we have the cost/benefit anaylysis: privatized medicine costs 40% more per person than universal HC and less people benefit under PM.
So there is no viable economic or medical criteria for denying UHC in the US.
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sorry but this thread is bullshit. medicare in the u.s is "socialized" medicine. print how long a medicare patient in THIS country waits to see a doctor. otherwise your stats mean nothing.
so we should go straight socialized?
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excuse me but your point was that socialized medicine in america would create long wait periods to see doctors, surgeons etc. that is simply bullshit. the elderly in this country ALL have socialized medicine (medicare) and long lines don't exist.
your point was factless.
My point isn't factless and I even backed it up with the socialized health care I am a part of. Socialized health care will lower the quality across the board. It has in every country that has tried it. Right now we have the best health care in the world for 80%. Why lower it for that 80%?