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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: loco on December 11, 2007, 07:22:48 AM
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WASHINGTON, Dec. 10 (Xinhua) -- Two shootings at a Christian missionary center and a church in Colorado Sunday are suspected to have been carried out by a gunman with a hatred for Christians, a TV report said Monday.
Four people were killed and five were injured in the incidents.
Citing sources familiar with the events, a CNN report said that the 24-year-old gunman, Matthew Murray, used to work at the Youth With a Mission training center but left several years ago after a quarrel. Since then, he has sent antagonistic and threatening correspondence to the center.
Early Sunday, Murray killed two staff members and injured two others when he attacked a training center in the Denver suburb of Arvada. He then drove to the New Life church in Colorado Springs, 105 km away, where the center has a satellite office, the sources told CNN.
Murray was shot dead by a female security guard at the church after killing two teenage sisters and injuring three others in the afternoon, the report said.
An unidentified law enforcement official told local media that Murray, a son of a prominent neurologist, was believed to be the gunman in both attacks.
Murray had no criminal history but "hated Christians," he added.
However, police only confirmed that Murray was responsible for the shooting incident at the church, saying they were still investigating whether he was also behind the shooting at the training center.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-12/11/content_7228810.htm
Five dead in separate Colorado shootings
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/10/wcolorado310.xml
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What stopped the shooter?
An armed citizen.
I bet that woman's family laughed at her for years.. "Why do you need a gun in church? You're paranoid!"
Well, that one time, she sure as hell needed it.
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Brave girl, and a good shot too. How many lives were saved that day thanks to her.
"The shooting at the New Life Church occurred at the end of the 11am service as hundreds of people were milling about and parents were collecting their children from nursery."
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if there had been a gun ban -
the crazy murderer who posted online about his plans to kill - he probably wouldn't have turned in his gun.
THe brave churchgoer probably would have turned hers in.
Would a gun ban have made that day better or worse?
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Jeanne Assam, a church member who volunteers as a security guard, shot and killed Murray, who was found with a rifle and two handguns, police said. The pastor called her “a real hero.”
“When the shots were fired, she rushed toward the scene and encountered the attacker there in a hallway. He never got more than 50 feet inside our building,” he said. “There could have been a great loss of life yesterday, and she probably saved over 100 lives.”
Boyd said the gunman had a lot of ammunition and estimated that 40 rounds had been fired inside the church, leaving what looked like a “war scene.”
Jessie Gingrich, who had left New Life and was in the parking lot getting into her car, saw the gunman get a rifle from his trunk and open fire on a van with people inside. Gingrich said she cowered in her vehicle, fumbling with the key.
“I was just expecting for the next gunshot to be coming through my car. Miraculously — by the grace of God — it did not,” she told ABC’s “Good Morning America.”
About 7,000 people were in and around the church the time of the shooting, Boyd said. Security had been beefed up after the shootings hours earlier in Arvada, he said. The church had a total of 15 to 20 volunteer security officers inside at the time of the attack, he said.
Some members of the congregation reacted with compassion and forgiveness, in keeping with their faith.
Ashley Gibbs was getting into a car with David Harris when they heard the gunshots. They stayed in the vehicle.
“It was obvious that he was in some sort of pain and going through a lot,” Gibbs told the TODAY show. “I just prayed God would bring him peace.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22174890/page/2/
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Sad. I feel bad for the victims and this kid's parents. Jeanne Assam is definitely a hero.
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Another white male goes on a killing spree. The only way to be safe is not attend school, mall, work, or church. The only place left to go is the grocery store :-\
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I feel bad for the people who think it's necessary to have guns in church.
I may not like or respect religion, but that's fucked up, no matter how you slice it.
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Another white male goes on a killing spree. The only way to be safe is not attend school, mall, work, or church. The only place left to go is the grocery store :-\
Hmmm, two lately and then an Asian male at VaTech. ::) Pales in comparison to the rampant and daily gang killings and innocent deaths in the "hood" by people of color. Yep, we should cage them in the ghetto and never let them drive outside of it. That would make everything safe.
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Hmmm, two lately and then an Asian male at VaTech. ::) Pales in comparison to the rampant and daily gang killings and innocent deaths in the "hood" by people of color. Yep, we should cage them in the ghetto and never let them drive outside of it. That would make everything safe.
98% of school, mall, church, and job shootings are by white males. I am really scared of those kind of people.
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98% of school, mall, church, and job shootings are by white males. I am really scared of those kind of people.
Do you know why these things are televised? Because they aren't the norm, as opposed to other violence. It's the same thing when kids kill or when women are violent. We are shocked because it doesn't happen much. If the news aired every drive-by, drug deal killing, etc in the hood that's all we'd see on local news.
Are those accurate stats BTW? Even so, what are the raw numbers of those on a yearly basis?
If you consider the number of people on color in the hood also "banging" or "dealing" while also on welfare you could consider those killing while at work.
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I feel bad for the people who think it's necessary to have guns in church.
I may not like or respect religion, but that's fucked up, no matter how you slice it.
Why?
For some, a church is just a building full of targets.
A lot of people are alive because one woman knew this.
I carry everywhere legal. The zoo. Church. It's crazy 99.99% of the time. But that .01% of the time, when some nut decides to start capping people, I'll be in a better position to escape or stop him.
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Another white male goes on a killing spree. The only way to be safe is not attend school, mall, work, or church. The only place left to go is the grocery store :-\
You're an idiot... Nobody wants to hear your delusional black perfection crap.
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Hmmm, two lately and then an Asian male at VaTech.
He was dating a White girl and thought he was White.
Like Paul Mooney, I am AFRAID OF WHITE PEOPLE - y'all gon' kill every damn body!
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I can't believe the delusional crap I'm hearing... Blacks are less violent than whites... BWHAHAHAHahahhahahaha... ::)
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Here's some facts for disgruntled blacks to think about when saying these crimes are only committed by whites...
Population in America
White alone: 74.7% or about 215.3 million
Black or African American alone: 12.1% or 35.0 million
Firearm violence for blacks age 12 or older was: 40% higher than the rates for Hispanics, 200% higher than the rates for whites. (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2006)
oh... ooops ::) Who should be afraid of who Tre?
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What stopped the shooter?
An armed citizen.
I bet that woman's family laughed at her for years.. "Why do you need a gun in church? You're paranoid!"
Well, that one time, she sure as hell needed it.
Not arguing with you, just to clarify that this woman is a 42 year old ex-cop who volunteers as a security guard at her church. She had the training, but no experience. This was the first time that she had ever fired her gun at a person. This mega church has had volunteer security guards who are members of the church. Not all their security guards are armed, but the ones who are armed used to be or are still in law enforcement.
(http://www.thedenverchannel.com/2007/1210/14817484_240X180.jpg)
Having said that, many lives were saved that day thanks to this woman. She was very brave as she even stood face to face with the gunman, who had much more fire power than she had. She even told him her name before she shot him dead, before he had a chance shoot her.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14817480/detail.html
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You're an idiot... Nobody wants to hear your delusional black perfection crap.
Why all the name calling? ???
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Why all the name calling? ???
all what name calling? If you say idiotic things, don't be shocked if someone identifies you as an idiot. Hope that helps :-*
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I can't believe the delusional crap I'm hearing... Blacks are less violent than whites... BWHAHAHAHahahhahahaha... ::)
Here's some facts for disgruntled blacks to think about when saying these crimes are only committed by whites...
Population in America
White alone: 74.7% or about 215.3 million
Black or African American alone: 12.1% or 35.0 million
Firearm violence for blacks age 12 or older was: 40% higher than the rates for Hispanics, 200% higher than the rates for whites. (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2006)
oh... ooops ::) Who should be afraid of who Tre?
Your people have killed thousands of innocent people for hundreds of years just because the color of their skin. I think you need to go read a history book small child. ::)
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Your people have killed thousands of innocent people for hundreds of years just because the color of their skin. I think you need to go read a history book small child. ::)
clearly you need to go read a history book... Then maybe you wouldn't be such an idiot :D To set you straight, MY PEOPLE, have been killing for thousands of years and I hate to burst your sensitive Black Pride, so has your people ;)
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Here's some facts for disgruntled blacks to think about when saying these crimes are only committed by whites...
Population in America
White alone: 74.7% or about 215.3 million
Black or African American alone: 12.1% or 35.0 million
Firearm violence for blacks age 12 or older was: 40% higher than the rates for Hispanics, 200% higher than the rates for whites. (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2006)
oh... ooops ::) Who should be afraid of who Tre?
ooops ;D Sgt d. other than quoting this and telling me to read a history book, do you have anything valid to bring against these little items :D If you look at these numbers, how many more black shooters would we be looking at if the population were reversed and whites were only 12% I mean, isn't it stupid to point out that most of these shooters are white, in a nation that is mostly white... no shit huh...
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Firearm violence for blacks age 12 or older was: 40% higher than the rates for Hispanics, 200% higher than the rates for whites. (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2006)
oh... ooops ::) Who should be afraid of who Tre?
With the exception of the 'DC Sniper(s)' a few years back, I challenge you to name another shooting spree that involved a Black shoot within the past 10-15 years. You may reference the individual or the place.
The fact that anyone thinks it's 'ok' to carry a firearm to church is just plain nuts.
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We have had this race discussion before. It really is stupid to try and label entire races of people as more violent than others. For example, we don't look at the fact that the overwhelming majority of mass murderers, serial killers, and pedophiles are white and draw conclusions that whites are somehow more dangerous than any other race.
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With the exception of the 'DC Sniper(s)' a few years back, I challenge you to name another shooting spree that involved a Black shoot within the past 10-15 years. You may reference the individual or the place.
The fact that anyone thinks it's 'ok' to carry a firearm to church is just plain nuts.
If we're talking about gun violence and we are, you guys win hands down. Blacks are 200% more likely to shoot someone than whites. You want a shooting spree, right off the top of my head, one happened last year in Denver. He was black, shot up a limo killing Derrant Williams without a care in the world who else might get hit inside. Blacks are responsible for so many drive by shootings it's stupid. It's laughable you would even task someone on this. Countless innocent lives have been lost to these crazy idiots firing at will... babies, mothers, and you know it... sorry the truth hurts, but you and Sgt d's notion of some kind of superiortity here is as crap as it gets.
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For example, we don't look at the fact that the overwhelming majority of mass murderers, serial killers, and pedophiles are white and draw conclusions that whites are somehow more dangerous than any other race.
Yes they do ::)
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What's up with this Tre, Sgt d...
Study on Drive by shootings!!!
In 21 percent (86 out of 408) of the incidents, the victims were in other
locations that included: playground, basketball court, bus stop, coffee
shop, church, vacant lot, fast food restaurant, or other business.
http://www.vpc.org/studies/driveby.pdf
oh yea... you guys really have the high ground on gun violence.... BWHAHAHahahhahahhaaha
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If we're talking about gun violence and we are, you guys win hands down. Blacks are 200% more likely to shoot someone than whites. You want a shooting spree, right off the top of my head, one happened last year in Denver. He was black, shot up a limo killing Derrant Williams without a care in the world who else might get hit inside. Blacks are responsible for so many drive by shootings it's stupid. It's laughable you would even task someone on this. Countless innocent lives have been lost to these crazy idiots firing at will... babies, mothers, and you know it... sorry the truth hurts, but you and Sgt d's notion of some kind of superiortity here is as crap as it gets.
That wasn't a 'spree'. Spree killers are almost always White.
Blacks are *far* more likely to shoot other Blacks, so what do Whites have to fear from Blacks?
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What's up with this Tre, Sgt d...
Study on Drive by shootings!!!
In 21 percent (86 out of 408) of the incidents, the victims were in other
locations that included: playground, basketball court, bus stop, coffee
shop, church, vacant lot, fast food restaurant, or other business.
http://www.vpc.org/studies/driveby.pdf
oh yea... you guys really have the high ground on gun violence.... BWHAHAHahahhahahhaaha
What percentage of the victims in those incidents were White?
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when i get a call for a shooting, 90% of the time,the next thing i hear over the radio is black male suspect. thats not racist, thats just a fact.
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when i get a call for a shooting, 90% of the time,the next thing i hear over the radio is black male suspect. thats not racist, thats just a fact.
Ok, 9 out of 10 shootings you hear about involve a Black suspect.
Of the 9, how many also involve a Black *victim*?
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Ok, 9 out of 10 shootings you hear about involve a Black suspect.
Of the 9, how many also involve a Black *victim*?
most. but not in robbery. the victims are always white. why rob another poor person? they dont, they go for the rich.
a few years ago there was a white guy in a black s5 from out of town, that got shot up and killed.. we couldnt figure out why this guy was ambushed, he was from Connecticut on a business trip in manhattan. why was he in the ghetto? we figured he was a dealer or making a buy.. but that didnt make sense based on what we found out about the guy.. then a week later another black s5 near the same neighboorhood was shot up.. he was a drug dealer. now it made sense.. the first guy got lost after following a detour. then the ones who killed him found out they got the wrong guy.
innocent vitims get killed all the time.
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most. but not in robbery. the victims are always white. why rob another poor person? they dont, they go for the rich.
a few years ago there was a white guy in a black s5 from out of town, that got shot up and killed.. we couldnt figure out why this guy was ambushed, he was from Connecticut on a business trip in manhattan. why was he in the ghetto? we figured he was a dealer or making a buy.. but that didnt make sense based on what we found out about the guy.. then a week later another black s5 near the same neighboorhood was shot up.. he was a drug dealer. now it made sense.. the first guy got lost after following a detour. then the ones who killed him found out they got the wrong guy.
innocent vitims get killed all the time.
he should have been packing. I tell ya... I might be a little paranoid, sure. But I carry everywhere I go. When I arrive at a place, I look for anyone, anyone who looks out of place. You know the body language of someone a mile away.
kh300, you're a cop. aren't you like that off-duty? You watch everyone in the room? You sit with an eye on the entrance? You smell shady people a mile away?
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he should have been packing. I tell ya... I might be a little paranoid, sure. But I carry everywhere I go. When I arrive at a place, I look for anyone, anyone who looks out of place. You know the body language of someone a mile away.
kh300, you're a cop. aren't you like that off-duty? You watch everyone in the room? You sit with an eye on the entrance? You smell shady people a mile away?
oh brother ::)
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Can't say why, but anytime I go into a restaurant, bar, or club (which is rare), I'm always looking to see where the exits are.
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oh brother ::)
keep rolling your eyes. If some asshole ever walks into the room and decides to start popping ppl at dinner, I'll more than likely see him and prepare for an exit or to try to stop him. You'll have your back to him enjoying your dinner. It's your choice, and that's fine. I prefer to up the odds every little % I can.
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he should have been packing. I tell ya... I might be a little paranoid, sure. But I carry everywhere I go. When I arrive at a place, I look for anyone, anyone who looks out of place. You know the body language of someone a mile away.
kh300, you're a cop. aren't you like that off-duty? You watch everyone in the room? You sit with an eye on the entrance? You smell shady people a mile away?
i do now, but when i was a street cop it drove me nuts. with a stressfull job you have to leave work at work, and not bring it home with you. hard to do when you have a holster on your ankle on your off day.. makes you feel like your still at work, and its hard to relax..
i got trained in behavior detection by DHS. so ya, i can spot a guy who's about to fart. shit that took a long time to learn. like that girl on bill o'reilly that can tell what someones thinking based on their body language..
but some dude about to go on a rampage, stevie wonder can spot one of those guys
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i got trained in behavior detection by DHS.
You mean those guys who haven't done a damn thing to 'keep America safe'?
I'd trust your own instincts more than whatever worthless techniques those clowns are using.
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You mean those guys who haven't done a damn thing to 'keep America safe'?
I'd trust your own instincts more than whatever worthless techniques those clowns are using.
You mean ICE, Border and Customs, FAM, SS, etc that became lumped into one group?
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You mean those guys who haven't done a damn thing to 'keep America safe'?
I'd trust your own instincts more than whatever worthless techniques those clowns are using.
lol, what the fuck are you talking about? when was the last time we were attacked? and how many attempts -lots
worthless clowns? dude, id fuck you up.. what makes you say that. ill tell you this much 99% of the shit that goes down doesnt get into the public. cnn would be shut down if they reported shit they arnt allowed. we dont want you hidding in your home scared shitless.
heres just a couple examples of what has been released. and this sis only air travel, 1 small part of dhs
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What percentage of the victims in those incidents were White?
They're people ::) living breathing human beings with loved ones ::)
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Ok, 9 out of 10 shootings you hear about involve a Black suspect.
Of the 9, how many also involve a Black *victim*?
"Most victims of race crime—about 90 percent—are white, according to the survey "Highlights from 20 Years of Surveying Crime Victims", published in 1993."
"Almost 1 million white Americans were murdered, robbed, assaulted or raped by black Americans in 1992, compared with about 132,000 blacks who were murdered, robbed, assaulted or raped by whites, according to the same survey."
"Blacks thus committed 7.5 times more violent inter-racial crimes than whites even though the black population is only one-seventh the size of the white population. When these figures are adjusted on a per capita basis, they reveal an extraordinary disparity: blacks are committing more than 50 times the number of violent racial crimes of whites."
"According to the latest annual report on murder by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, most inter-racial murders involve black assailants and white victims, with blacks murdering whites at 18 times the rate that whites murder blacks. "
And for the statistic that will put this into a perspective you two are sure to cringe at: 8)
In 2005, among the American poor, there were 24,824,000 Whites, 8,988,000 Blacks, http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty05/table5.html
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"Most victims of race crime—about 90 percent—are white, according to the survey "Highlights from 20 Years of Surveying Crime Victims", published in 1993."
"Almost 1 million white Americans were murdered, robbed, assaulted or raped by black Americans in 1992, compared with about 132,000 blacks who were murdered, robbed, assaulted or raped by whites, according to the same survey."
"Blacks thus committed 7.5 times more violent inter-racial crimes than whites even though the black population is only one-seventh the size of the white population. When these figures are adjusted on a per capita basis, they reveal an extraordinary disparity: blacks are committing more than 50 times the number of violent racial crimes of whites."
"According to the latest annual report on murder by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, most inter-racial murders involve black assailants and white victims, with blacks murdering whites at 18 times the rate that whites murder blacks. "
And for the statistic that will put this into a perspective you two are sure to cringe at: 8)
In 2005, among the American poor, there were 24,824,000 Whites, 8,988,000 Blacks, http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty05/table5.html
Isn't this the information compiled by the supremacist group that youandme post some time ago?
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Isn't this the information compiled by the supremacist group that youandme post some time ago?
I just got it doing a google search... I have no knowledge of these stats coming from a supremacist group. Are they wrong or are they right... Looking at the official statistics they're right... I'm not into preaching hate and you know it.
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All I can say is : Praise Jebus!
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I just got it doing a google search... I have no knowledge of these stats coming from a supremacist group. Are they wrong or are they right... Looking at the official statistics they're right... I'm not into preaching hate and you know it.
I didn't say you were into preaching hate.
I've discussed this before on here, but I think race-based statistics are completely unreliable.
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I didn't say you were into preaching hate.
I've discussed this before on here, but I think race-based statistics are completely unreliable.
How so? you don't believe the stats gathered by law enforcement? You don't believe the census stats on poverty? I can understand they could be off some, but to call them, "completely unreliable" is odd... You're all over the election polls being accurate for Ron Paul, but you doubt the stats gathered on the ethnicity of violent criminals? What do you base this on?
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I think race-based statistics are completely unreliable.
BB,
Seriously -
Your use of polls and stats, then ability to downplay the legitimacy of any stat or poll you disagree with... well, it's astonishing to see you use that tool in a debate.
You can't tell us why the stats are incorrect - or how police dept and census bureau got it all wrong. You just know they're wrong.
It just makes you look like you don't understand the numbers - that's the only conclusion I can find. In order to be so sure that Zogby and Census and everyone else are just so wrong, you need to give some sort of evidence. Otherwise, you're a... CT.... a crazy conspiracy nut claiming that the police and govt are lying in all their numbers.
My own opinion - and you admitted you left high school to work for the new family you had - is that you haven't had many math classes and just don't understand the numbers we're discussing here.
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I should say that I think anybody claiming some kind of high ground on violence in general is out of their freaking minds... I can litterally go from race to race and find all sorts of atrocity. We can toss these numbers around all day long and you will indeed find that cultural influences lead to violence through different means but what you will find as a constant among all races is violent tendencies.
Nobody has the high ground here. It's human nature and we need to get past blaming others so we can get on to valid solutions. That won't happen with everyone locked into some kind of delusional superiority.
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lol, what the fuck are you talking about? when was the last time we were attacked?
Sunday:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316322,00.html
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Sunday:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316322,00.html
::)
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keep rolling your eyes. If some asshole ever walks into the room and decides to start popping ppl at dinner, I'll more than likely see him and prepare for an exit or to try to stop him. You'll have your back to him enjoying your dinner. It's your choice, and that's fine. I prefer to up the odds every little % I can.
You sound like you are living in fear. I wouldn't want to live my life paranoid all the time. Where the hell do you live? Iraq? ???
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::)
Can't handle the truth "Berserker"
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How so? you don't believe the stats gathered by law enforcement? You don't believe the census stats on poverty? I can understand they could be off some, but to call them, "completely unreliable" is odd... You're all over the election polls being accurate for Ron Paul, but you doubt the stats gathered on the ethnicity of violent criminals? What do you base this on?
First of all, I don't think Ron Paul's poll numbers have any relationship whatsoever to race-based statistics. Not even going to address that one. Really not a good comparison at all.
Regarding race-based stats, they are completely unreliable for several reasons:
1. They don't take into account education and income, which are far greater predictors than race when it comes to crime.
2. They don't account for mixed-race people, which make up a huge percentage of the population.
3. They don't indicate how race was determined when these crime statistics are compiled. Does the perp indicate his or her race? Does the arresting officer do a visual identification? What about all the halfricans who people consider "black." Just look at Obama. How many people consider the man white?
That's a start. . . .
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BB,
Seriously -
Your use of polls and stats, then ability to downplay the legitimacy of any stat or poll you disagree with... well, it's astonishing to see you use that tool in a debate.
You can't tell us why the stats are incorrect - or how police dept and census bureau got it all wrong. You just know they're wrong.
It just makes you look like you don't understand the numbers - that's the only conclusion I can find. In order to be so sure that Zogby and Census and everyone else are just so wrong, you need to give some sort of evidence. Otherwise, you're a... CT.... a crazy conspiracy nut claiming that the police and govt are lying in all their numbers.
My own opinion - and you admitted you left high school to work for the new family you had - is that you haven't had many math classes and just don't understand the numbers we're discussing here.
LOL. Do you ever tell the truth? Now . . . ask me if I really care what the heck you think? Go ahead . . . I'm dying to answer. :)
I know you really like me, but honestly, do try and avoid turning so many threads into Beach Bum subjects.
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I should say that I think anybody claiming some kind of high ground on violence in general is out of their freaking minds... I can litterally go from race to race and find all sorts of atrocity. We can toss these numbers around all day long and you will indeed find that cultural influences lead to violence through different means but what you will find as a constant among all races is violent tendencies.
Nobody has the high ground here. It's human nature and we need to get past blaming others so we can get on to valid solutions. That won't happen with everyone locked into some kind of delusional superiority.
With the exception of "cultural influences," I agree with everything you said.
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You sound like you are living in fear. I wouldn't want to live my life paranoid all the time. Where the hell do you live? Iraq? ???
BWHAHAHHAHahahhhhahhahah aha.... look who's talking :P
Can't say why, but anytime I go into a restaurant, bar, or club (which is rare), I'm always looking to see where the exits are.
Another white male goes on a killing spree. The only way to be safe is not attend school, mall, work, or church. The only place left to go is the grocery store :-\
98% of school, mall, church, and job shootings are by white males. I am really scared of those kind of people.
He was dating a White girl and thought he was White.
Like Paul Mooney, I am AFRAID OF WHITE PEOPLE - y'all gon' kill every damn body!
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Can't handle the truth "Berserker"
truth, Tre's truth that what happened in Colorado was a terrorist attack ::) Really, fill me in on how that's truth sgt. d, what was the guy's motive? Now go look up terrorism and come back to tell me how this is a terrorist attack ::) Tre earned that eye roll...
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With the exception of "cultural influences," I agree with everything you said.
how so, clearly I'm right on that... why else do you think whites are far more likely to commit murder by poison than blacks? You think it's a built in racial difference? No, I think it's a cumulative influence from one's surroundings. The input they're exposed to through life. Would that same white person choose poison if they were completely raised in a different culture? I doubt it.
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how so, clearly I'm right on that... why else do you think whites are far more likely to commit murder by poison than blacks? You think it's a built in racial difference? No, I think it's a cumulative influence from one's surroundings. The input they're exposed to through life. Would that same white person choose poison if they were completely raised in a different culture? I doubt it.
I don't know if whites are more likely to commit murder by poison than blacks. How do you reach that conclusion?
I'm not sure we're using the same definition of "culture." If by culture you mean environment, then I agree. If by culture you mean certain practices by a particular race or ethnic group, then I disagree. Based on your description, it sounds like we're saying the same thing (i.e., using culture synonymously with environment).
I think a person's environment essentially determines their place in life.
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I don't know if whites are more likely to commit murder by poison than blacks. How do you reach that conclusion?
I'm not sure we're using the same definition of "culture." If by culture you mean environment, then I agree. If by culture you mean certain practices by a particular race or ethnic group, then I disagree. Based on your description, it sounds like we're saying the same thing (i.e., using culture synonymously with environment).
I think a person's environment essentially determines their place in life.
I got the stats from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. www.ojp.usdoj.gov Whites who choose poison in homicides: 78.8% while blacks who go the poison route make up only 18.4% and yes, I'm using the term culture a little different. I could have as well said environment but there is cultural influences important in the factor of the environment one is raised in so that's why I went there. But I think we agree on that one, just needed to clarify.
These are stats that you cannot deny. even if they are off some do to some factors you mention, the numbers are so extreme they can still be used to point toward real trends in crime and race.
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I got the stats from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. www.ojp.usdoj.gov Whites who choose poison in homicides: 78.8% while blacks who go the poison route make up only 18.4% and yes, I'm using the term culture a little different. I could have as well said environment but there is cultural influences important in the factor of the environment one is raised in so that's why I went there. But I think we agree on that one, just needed to clarify.
These are stats that you cannot deny. even if they are off some do to some factors you mention, the numbers are so extreme they can still be used to point toward real trends in crime and race.
Yes we agree on culture/environment.
I can indeed deny stats. I don't think they really establish anything. You cannot take those stats and use them to make reliable judgments about people you happen to see on the street. You cannot use them to make policy. Honestly, I'm not sure why the government keeps them. I've asked the same question about the race component of the census. What's the purpose?
I think the blood quantum issue is huge. Not sure if you've ever been here, but a good half the population is mixed race. Same is true for blacks in Hawaii. Just in my church, there are kids who are black/Palauan, black/Korean, and black/Fijian. A military family just moved away that was from the Virgin Islands. They are very dark skinned, but the mom has a Chinese grandfather. Her dark skinned boys have Chinese eyes. It's wild. Are all those kids black?
We also have in my church white/Japanese, white/Filipino, white/Hawaiian, etc. Are those kids white?
I've seen the same trend on the mainland.
I remember having a discussion with that Oliver (?) kid on here a long time ago. Trying to determine what blood quantum determines a person's race. He actually came up with some percentage. I think it's an absurd exercise.
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well I think you cannot deny the stats entirely. No way... Look we actually agree that people are a product of their environment. That means we should also agree that you can observe different trends in those raised in different environments.
In the stats taken, the most accurate percentage is going to be with those labeled white since they are easiest to identify. If you have any relative percentage of black blood, it's real unlikely that person will appear anything but black or part and very unlikely they'll be recored as white.
If you look at the stats, they show definite trend differences between those who are labeled white and those who are recorded as black. Regardless, that says something.
All of this matters not. I do not intend on saying blacks are more likely to commit violent acts. One cannot look at moments in time to obtain an accurate depiction of a people and when you take into account all our histories, it becomes quite clear we're all built with the same tendencies to harm and this is my primary contention with Sgt d. and Tre who are on some kind of evil whiteman misson.
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oh and white is of European ancestry. You cannot tell me you would not be able to tell the difference between a lite coloured Hawaiian/Japanese and a German, Irish etc.
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well I think you cannot deny the stats entirely. No way... Look we actually agree that people are a product of their environment. That means we should also agree that you can observe different trends in those raised in different environments.
In the stats taken, the most accurate percentage is going to be with those labeled white since they are easiest to identify. If you have any relative percentage of black blood, it's real unlikely that person will appear anything but black or part and very unlikely they'll be recored as white.
If you look at the stats, they show definite trend differences between those who are labeled white and those who are recorded as black. Regardless, that says something.
All of this matters not. I do not intend on saying blacks are more likely to commit violent acts. One cannot look at moments in time to obtain an accurate depiction of a people and when you take into account all our histories, it becomes quite clear we're all built with the same tendencies to harm and this is my primary contention with Sgt d. and Tre who are on some kind of evil whiteman misson.
We agree on much of this, particularly your first and last paragraphs.
What you essentially said in your second paragraph is race is sometimes determined by appearance, which is true. That just confirms my belief that race-based statistics are unreliable.
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oh and white is of European ancestry. You cannot tell me you would not be able to tell the difference between a lite coloured Hawaiian/Japanese and a German, Irish etc.
Is it really? I'm pretty sure that certain parts of the government considers Hispanics and Jews to be "white" when it comes to certain race-based categories.
I can pick out a hapa a mile away, but is a German/Japanese person white or Asian? You don't see how problematic that is?
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We agree on much of this, particularly your first and last paragraphs.
What you essentially said in your second paragraph is race is sometimes determined by appearance, which is true. That just confirms my belief that race-based statistics are unreliable.
no, it could confirm they are partially off, not unreliable. like anything there's going to be room for error of course. I give that, but when you note extemes in the statistical trends as I have, that can indeed point out valid trends. Which is no big deal as we agree on one being a product of environment/culture.
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Is it really? I'm pretty sure that certain parts of the government considers Hispanics and Jews to be "white" when it comes to certain race-based categories.
I can pick out a hapa a mile away, but is a German/Japanese person white or Asian? You don't see how problematic that is?
Jews are still recorded as white but they have stopped recording hispanics as white. A german/japanese is going to not likely be recorded as white, that's just a fact I have nothing to do with.