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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: EL Mariachi on December 15, 2007, 04:34:59 PM
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discuss
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Jesus Christ is no myth
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He's real. :)
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I don't think he is.
He is real.
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Yes, Jesus Christ was and is a myth in the following ways:
So, then, Christ may be said to be a fiction in the four senses that 1) it is quite possible that there was no historical Jesus. 2) Even if there was, he is lost to us, the result being that there is no historical Jesus available to us. And 3) the Jesus who "walks with me and talks with me and tells me I am his own" is an imaginative visualization and in the nature of the case can be nothing more than a fiction. And finally, 4) "Christ" as a corporate logo for this and that religious institution is a euphemistic fiction, not unlike Ronald McDonald, Mickey Mouse, or Joe Camel, the purpose of which is to get you to swallow a whole raft of beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors by an act of simple faith, short-circuiting the dangerous process of thinking the issues out to your own conclusions.
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Yes, Jesus Christ was and is a myth in the following ways:
Trapezkerl,
Do you want Jesus to be a myth? Would it disapoint you if it could be proven that Jesus is not a myth?
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Trapezkerl,
Do you want Jesus to be a myth? Would it disapoint you if it could be proven that Jesus is not a myth?
I don't care either way. I go where the evidence leads. It has not been proven yet and I awaiting the evidence.
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I don't care either way. I go where the evidence leads. It has been proven yet and I awaiting the evidence.
History and archeology must be a very small book to you sir. ;D
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History and archeology must be a very small book to you sir. ;D
Archaeology? Wait, don't tell me...
Following loco's advice, you went to a "museum" that exhibited the splendid things Jesus built in his days in the carpentry shop, right?
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Archaeology? Wait, don't tell me...
Following loco's advice, you went to a "museum" that exhibited the splendid things Jesus built in his days in the carpentry shop, right?
No, actually, because Jesus is mentioned in a book outside of the Bible, it means that everything he did in the Bible is 100% true.
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No, actually, because Jesus is mentioned in a book outside of the Bible, it means that everything he did in the Bible is 100% true.
Yeah in a book, probably a fantasy book ::) can you prove otherwise? ;)
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Wasn't Philo a contemporary of Jesus and the most eminent historian of his day?
Philo never mentioned Jesus once.
I don't think he existed. There are too many literary thematic devices used to tell his story and they predate christ: Virgin Birth, Guiding Star, 3 Wise Men, Son of God--Savior and Redeemer and a whole lot more.
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Wasn't Philo a contemporary of Jesus and the most eminent historian of his day?
Philo never mentioned Jesus once.
I don't think he existed. There are too many literary thematic devices used to tell his story and they predate christ: Virgin Birth, Guiding Star, 3 Wise Men, Son of God--Savior and Redeemer and a whole lot more.
Uh oh. I smell a loco smack down coming . . . . :D
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Uh oh. I smell a loco smack down coming . . . . :D
Probably not. He doesn't much other than what he believes or what he considers good enough for him.
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Yeah in a book, probably a fantasy book ::) can you prove otherwise? ;)
I'll leave that all to the resident fundies..... my post was in sarcasm ;D
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History and archeology must be a very small book to you sir. ;D
When we have enough historical evidence for the alleged Jesus of the (then) non-existent Nazareth as we do for such figures as Julius Caesar, Cicero and Charlemagne we can talk. The fact is Ozmo, you haven't done the research. Look into the matter and see just how little concrete evidence there is for Jesus. Why then for example were there Christians in the 1st century CE who believed he had lived 100 years prior in the 1st century BCE? The extrabiblical evidence is thin and what we do have, upon further investigation, are outright forgeries or 50/50 shots, not concrete, detailed evidence.
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Wasn't Philo a contemporary of Jesus and the most eminent historian of his day?
Philo never mentioned Jesus once.
I don't think he existed. There are too many literary thematic devices used to tell his story and they predate christ: Virgin Birth, Guiding Star, 3 Wise Men, Son of God--Savior and Redeemer and a whole lot more.
That stuff too, but even if you just look at the extrabibical evidence, it is pathetic.
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When we have enough historical evidence for the alleged Jesus of the (then) non-existent Nazareth as we do for such figures as Julius Caesar, Cicero and Charlemagne we can talk. The fact is Ozmo, you haven't done the research. Look into the matter and see just how little concrete evidence there is for Jesus. Why then for example were there Christians in the 1st century CE who believed he had lived 100 years prior in the 1st century BCE? The extrabiblical evidence is thin and what we do have, upon further investigation, are outright forgeries or 50/50 shots, not concrete, detailed evidence.
all from what? We had this discussion earlier, chances are he did exist, but not in the capacity others would believe.
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Probably not. He doesn't much other than what he believes or what he considers good enough for him.
I was half-joking. He has posted info about evidence of Jesus before. The man is an encyclopedia.
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all from what? We had this discussion earlier, chances are he did exist, but not in the capacity others would believe.
Much like Achilles, Hercules and Theseus...back to that game again, are we?
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Yeah in a book, probably a fantasy book ::) can you prove otherwise? ;)
Jesus Christ is mentioned in more than just one ancient book outside of the Bible, and no they are not fantacy books, but let's just start with the New Testament. Why discard the New Testament?
Did you know that the New Testament is more accurate and reliable than any other ancient writing in existance today? Did you know that the New Testament documents are better preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writing? Because they are so numerous, they can be cross checked for accuracy...and they are very consistent.
There are presently 5,686 Greek manuscripts in existence today for the New Testament. If we were to compare the number of New Testament manuscripts to other ancient writings, we find that the New Testament manuscripts far outweigh the others in quantity.
Just one example:
Aristotle's ancient writings date 384-322 B.C.. The earliest copy we have is from 1,100 A.D.. The approximate time span between original & copy is 1,400 years. We have only 49 copies.
Ceasar's ancient writings date 100-44 B.C.. The earliest copy we have is from 900 A.D.. The approximate time span between original & copy is 1,000 years. We have only 10 copies.
The New Testament on the other hand dates 1st Cent. A.D. (50-100 A.D.). The earliest copies we have are from 2nd Cent. A.D. (130 A.D.). The approximate time span between original & copy is less than 100 years. We have 5,686 copies.
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Wasn't Philo a contemporary of Jesus and the most eminent historian of his day?
Philo never mentioned Jesus once.
I don't think he existed. There are too many literary thematic devices used to tell his story and they predate christ: Virgin Birth, Guiding Star, 3 Wise Men, Son of God--Savior and Redeemer and a whole lot more.
Scholarly response to the Jesus Myth Hypothesis:
"There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church's imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more."
Burridge, R & Gould, G, Jesus Now and Then, Wm. B. Eerdmans, 2004, p.34.
The classical historian Michael Grant writes:
"To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."
Michael Grant does not see the similarities between Christianity and pagan religions to be significant. Grant states that "Judaism was a milieu to which doctrines of the deaths and rebirths, of mythical gods seemed so entirely foreign that the emergence of such a fabrication from its midst is very hard to credit."
Grant, Michael (1995). Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels. Scribner, 199. ISBN 978-0684818672 .
R.T. France points out that Christianity was actively opposed by both the Roman Empire and the Jewish authorities, and would have been utterly discredited if Jesus had been shown as a non-historical figure. He argues that there is evidence in Pliny, Josephus and other sources of the Roman and Jewish approaches at the time, and none of them involved this suggestion.
In response to Jesus-myth proponents who argue the lack of early non-Christian sources, or question their authenticity, R. T. France counters that "even the great histories of Tacitus have survived in only two manuscripts, which together contain scarcely half of what he is believed to have written, the rest is lost" and that the life of Jesus, from a Roman point of view, was not a major
event.
R.T France disagrees with the notion that the Apostle Paul did not speak of Jesus as a physical being. He argues that arguments from silence are unreliable and that there are several references to historical facts about Jesus's life in Paul's letters, such as that Jesus "who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David" (Romans 1:3, TNIV).
France, RT (1986). Evidence for Jesus (Jesus Library). Trafalgar Square Publishing, 19-20. ISBN 0340381728.
Supporting a historical Jesus
Bovon, François (2006). The Last Days of Jesus, trans. Kristin Hennessy; Louisville: Westminster, John Knox. ISBN 0664230075.
Burridge, Richard A. (2006). Four Gospels, One Jesus? A Symbolic Reading, 2nd edn., Grand Rapids:Eerdmans. ISBN 0802829805 .
Charlesworth, James H. (ed.) (2006). Jesus and Archaeology. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans. ISBN 080284880X.
Grant, Michael [1977] (1999). Jesus. London: Phoenix. ISBN 0-75380-899-4.
Komoszewski, J. Ed ; et al (2006). Reinventing Jesus. Kregel Publications. ISBN 082542982X.
Meier, John P. A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, 3 vols., New York: Doubleday.
(1991) The Roots of the Problem and the Person. ISBN 0-385-26425-9 .
(1994) Mentor, Message, and Miracles. ISBN 0-385-46992-6 .
(2001) Companions and Competitors. ISBN 0-385-46993-4 .
Sanders, E. P. (1993). The Historical Figure of Jesus. London: Allen Lane. ISBN 0-7139-9059-7.
Theissen, Gerd; and Annette Merz (1998). The Historical Jesus: A Comprehensive Guide , trans. John Bowden, Minneapolis: Fortress Press. ISBN 0-8006-3123-4.
Wright, NT (1996). The New Testament and the People of God. Augsburg Fortress Publishers. ISBN 0800626818.
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Josephus Jewish Antiquities (c.93 C.E.)
(later interpolations in brackets)
"Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man [if it be lawful to call him a man], for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. [He was the Messiah.] And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him [for he appeared to them alive again at the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him]. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this date.1
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Pliny the Younger Letter to Trajan (c.111-117 C.E.)
"...they maintained that their fault or error amounted to nothing more than this: they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before sunrise and reciting an antiphonal hymn to Christ as God, and binding themselves with an oath not to commit any crime, but to abstain from all acts of theft, robbery and adultery, from breaches of faith, from repudiating a trust when called upon to honour it."2
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Tacitus Roman Annals (c.115-117 C.E.)
"They got their name from Christ, who was executed by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. That checked the pernicious superstition for a short time, but it broke out afresh--not only in Judea, where the plague first arose, but in Rome itself, where all the horrible and shameful things in the world collect and find a home."3
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Sanhedrin 43a (200-500 C.E.)
"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu4 was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of Passover!"4
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Endnotes
1. Antiquities xviii. 33 (early second century) from F.F. Bruce, Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), 37.
2. Pliny, Epistles x.96, from Bruce, p.26.
3. Tacitus, Annals xv, 44, from Bruce, p. 22.
Talmudic designation of Jesus.
4. "Sanhedrin," vol 3 of Nezikin, Babylonian Talmud, edited by Isidore Epstein, reprint (London: Soncino, 1938), 281.
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Josephus on Jesus - Testimonium Flavianum - Arabic Version
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to themafter his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
Arabic summary, presumably of Antiquities 18.63. From Agapios' Kitab al-'Unwan ("Book of the Title," 10th c.).
The translation belongs to Shlomo Pines. See also James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within Judaism.
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Concerning Albinus Under Whose Procuratorship James Was Slain; As
Also What Edifices Were Built By Agrippa.
1. And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus
into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the
high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on
the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the
report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man;
for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high
priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long
time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high
priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you
already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper,
and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, (23)
who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of
the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus
was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper
opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and
Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of
judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was
called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some
of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against
them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but
as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and
such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they
disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa],
desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for
that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some
of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey
from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for
Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent. (24)
Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in
anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to
punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the
high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and
made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.
Antiquities of the Jews by Flavius Josephus - Book 20, Chapter 9
http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=2359&pageno=648
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Josephus on Jesus - Current state of the debate
Judging from Alice Whealey's 2003 survey of the historiography, it seems that the majority of modern scholars consider that Josephus really did write something here about Jesus, but that the text that has reached us is corrupt to a perhaps quite substantial extent. In the words of the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for Flavius Josephus, "The passage seems to suffer from repeated interpolations." There has been no consensus on which portions are corrupt, or to what degree.
Alice Whealey writes:
Twentieth century controversy over the Testimonium Flavianum can be distinguished from controversy over the text in the early modern period insofar as it seems generally more academic and less sectarian. While the challenge to the authenticity of the Testimonium in the early modern period was orchestrated almost entirely by Protestant scholars and while in the same period Jews outside the church uniformly denounced the text's authenticity, the twentieth century controversies over the text have been marked by the presence of Jewish scholars for the first time as prominent participants on both sides of the question. In general, the attitudes of Protestant, Roman Catholic, Jewish and secular scholars towards the text have drawn closer together, with a greater tendency among scholars of all religious backgrounds to see the text as largely authentic. On the one hand this can be interpreted as the result of an increasing trend towards secularism, which is usually seen as product of modernity. On the other hand it can be interpreted as a sort of post-modern disillusionment with the verities of modern skepticism, and an attempt to recapture the sensibility of the ancient world, when it apparently was still possible for a first-century Jew to have written a text as favorable towards Jesus of Nazareth as the Testimonium Flavianum.
Alice Whealey: Josephus on Jesus: The Testimonium Flavianum Controversy from Late Antiquity to Modern Times (Studies in Biblical Literature, Vol. 36). Peter Lang Publishing (February 2003) ISBN-10: 0820452416
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Uh oh. I smell a loco smack down coming . . . . :D
(http://www.pitbullguide.com/rope3.jpg)
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Scholarly response to the Jesus Myth Hypothesis:
"There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church's imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more."
Burridge, R & Gould, G, Jesus Now and Then, Wm. B. Eerdmans, 2004, p.34.
The classical historian Michael Grant writes:
"To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."
Michael Grant does not see the similarities between Christianity and pagan religions to be significant. Grant states that "Judaism was a milieu to which doctrines of the deaths and rebirths, of mythical gods seemed so entirely foreign that the emergence of such a fabrication from its midst is very hard to credit."
Grant, Michael (1995). Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels. Scribner, 199. ISBN 978-0684818672 .
R.T. France points out that Christianity was actively opposed by both the Roman Empire and the Jewish authorities, and would have been utterly discredited if Jesus had been shown as a non-historical figure. He argues that there is evidence in Pliny, Josephus and other sources of the Roman and Jewish approaches at the time, and none of them involved this suggestion.
In response to Jesus-myth proponents who argue the lack of early non-Christian sources, or question their authenticity, R. T. France counters that "even the great histories of Tacitus have survived in only two manuscripts, which together contain scarcely half of what he is believed to have written, the rest is lost" and that the life of Jesus, from a Roman point of view, was not a major
event.
R.T France disagrees with the notion that the Apostle Paul did not speak of Jesus as a physical being. He argues that arguments from silence are unreliable and that there are several references to historical facts about Jesus's life in Paul's letters, such as that Jesus "who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David" (Romans 1:3, TNIV).
France, RT (1986). Evidence for Jesus (Jesus Library). Trafalgar Square Publishing, 19-20. ISBN 0340381728.
Supporting a historical Jesus
Bovon, François (2006). The Last Days of Jesus, trans. Kristin Hennessy; Louisville: Westminster, John Knox. ISBN 0664230075.
Burridge, Richard A. (2006). Four Gospels, One Jesus? A Symbolic Reading, 2nd edn., Grand Rapids:Eerdmans. ISBN 0802829805 .
Charlesworth, James H. (ed.) (2006). Jesus and Archaeology. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans. ISBN 080284880X.
Grant, Michael [1977] (1999). Jesus. London: Phoenix. ISBN 0-75380-899-4.
Komoszewski, J. Ed ; et al (2006). Reinventing Jesus. Kregel Publications. ISBN 082542982X.
Meier, John P. A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, 3 vols., New York: Doubleday.
(1991) The Roots of the Problem and the Person. ISBN 0-385-26425-9 .
(1994) Mentor, Message, and Miracles. ISBN 0-385-46992-6 .
(2001) Companions and Competitors. ISBN 0-385-46993-4 .
Sanders, E. P. (1993). The Historical Figure of Jesus. London: Allen Lane. ISBN 0-7139-9059-7.
Theissen, Gerd; and Annette Merz (1998). The Historical Jesus: A Comprehensive Guide , trans. John Bowden, Minneapolis: Fortress Press. ISBN 0-8006-3123-4.
Wright, NT (1996). The New Testament and the People of God. Augsburg Fortress Publishers. ISBN 0800626818.
Is that a yes or no answer on Philo and his non-reporting of Christ?
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Is that a yes or no answer on Philo and his non-reporting of Christ?
Neither. It's a yes to Jesus is real. It's a no to the Jesus myth hypothesis.
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Neither. It's a yes to Jesus is real. It's a no to the Jesus myth hypothesis.
So the biggest historian and friend to the royal house of Judaea and a contemporary of Christ's time completely missed Jesus, the condescension of god to man? It could have happened. But that's like Fox News missing the overthrow of Iraq.
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(http://www.pitbullguide.com/rope3.jpg)
Hahahahahahaha! ;D
Ozmo I don't want to say I told you so, but . . .
Who let the dogs out?!?!?! :D
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Hahahahahahaha! ;D
Ozmo I don't want to say I told you so, but . . .
Who let the dogs out?!?!?! :D
That's only because you believe as he does. Evidence wise, Jesus is a myth. Jesus is real mainly because of faith. Nothing more.
And it that dog hanging? >:(
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So the biggest historian and friend to the royal house of Judaea and a contemporary of Christ's time completely missed Jesus, the condescension of god to man? It could have happened. But that's like Fox News missing the overthrow of Iraq.
Arguments from silence are unreliable. Josephus is a great Jewish historian of that time too and he wrote about both, Philo and Jesus Christ. Josephus was in Jerusalem, while Philo was far away in Egypt at the time. According to Josephus, Philo also had lots problems of his own at the time to worry about Jesus(see below). So if Philo did not mention Jesus, then we shouldn't be surprised as he was too far away and too busy at the time. And there is always the possibility that Philo did write something about Jesus, but it was lost.
"There was now a tumult arisen at Alexandria, between the Jewish inhabitants and the Greeks; and three ambassadors were chosen out of each party that were at variance, who came to Gaius. Now one of these ambassadors from the people of Alexandria was Apion, (29) who uttered many blasphemies against the Jews; and, among other things that he said, he charged them with neglecting the honors that belonged to Caesar; for that while all who were subject to the Roman empire built altars and temples to Gaius, and in other regards universally received him as they received the gods, these Jews alone thought it a dishonorable thing for them to erect statues in honor of him, as well as to swear by his name. Many of these severe things were said by Apion, by which he hoped to provoke Gaius to anger at the Jews, as he was likely to be. But Philo, the principal of the Jewish embassage, a man eminent on all accounts, brother to Alexander the alabarch, (30) and one not unskillful in philosophy, was ready to betake himself to make his defense against those accusations; but Gaius prohibited him, and bid him begone; he was also in such a rage, that it openly appeared he was about to do them some very great mischief. So Philo being thus affronted, went out, and said to those Jews who were about him, that they should be of good courage, since Gaius's words indeed showed anger at them, but in reality had already set God against himself."
[Antiquities of the Jews, xviii.8, § 1, Whiston's translation (online)]
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Evidence wise, Jesus is a myth.
Scholars disagree. Read my posts above.
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Scholars disagree. Read my posts above.
I think i am not saying what i mean correctly. I believe Jesus existed, I believe there is enough evidence of his existence, but as far as his "miracles, being the son of God, etc... is a myth that is real based on faith (not evidence).
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I don't think he is.
He is real.
History and archeology must be a very small book to you sir. ;D
Evidence wise, Jesus is a myth. Jesus is real mainly because of faith. Nothing more.
I have no doubt that Jesus exsisted. That much is evident.
Make up your mind.
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Make up your mind.
Loco, i'll try an explain it the best i can for you:
I think i am not saying what i mean correctly.
That means i think what i said here isn't what i really meant:
Evidence wise, Jesus is a myth. Jesus is real mainly because of faith. Nothing more.
What i did mean was this:
I believe Jesus existed, I believe there is enough evidence of his existence, but as far as his "miracles, being the son of God, etc... is a myth that is real based on faith (not evidence).
Do you get it now?
Do you need more explanation?
Should i draw a picture for you?
;D
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There are really 2 issues here:
#1: Did Jesus exist?
#2: If Jesus did exist did he do all those things written about in the bible?
I'm saying #1 is for sure. Based both on sources outside the bible and in the bible. I'm also saying that #2 lacks evidence and therefore its reality is based on faith and not evidence.
HTH
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That's only because you believe as he does. Evidence wise, Jesus is a myth. Jesus is real mainly because of faith. Nothing more.
And it that dog hanging? >:(
No it isn't. I take it you didn't read what loco posted? To say there is no evidence that Jesus existed flies in the face of the info loco posted.
Honestly, I don't generally get involved in these kinds of discussions. I know Jesus is/was real. I've seen him work in my life way too many times. I have all the proof I need.
No, that's not a hanging dog. It's a pit pull biting on a ball and being lifted off the ground. loco = pit bull :)
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No it isn't. I take it you didn't read what loco posted? To say there is no evidence that Jesus existed flies in the face of the info loco posted.
Honestly, I don't generally get involved in these kinds of discussions. I know Jesus is/was real. I've seen him work in my life way too many times. I have all the proof I need.
No, that's not a hanging dog. It's a pit pull biting on a ball and being lifted off the ground. loco = pit bull :)
I elaborated on what i wrote earlier, Jesus is a myth in terms of the things he did in the bible. I agree with you about God or Jesus working in our lives.
Yeah, loco is like a Christian pit bull. ;D
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Arguments from silence are unreliable. Josephus is a great Jewish historian of that time too and he wrote about both, Philo and Jesus Christ. Josephus was in Jerusalem, while Philo was far away in Egypt at the time. According to Josephus, Philo also had lots problems of his own at the time to worry about Jesus(see below). So if Philo did not mention Jesus, then we shouldn't be surprised as he was too far away and too busy at the time. And there is always the possibility that Philo did write something about Jesus, but it was lost.
"There was now a tumult arisen at Alexandria, between the Jewish inhabitants and the Greeks; and three ambassadors were chosen out of each party that were at variance, who came to Gaius. Now one of these ambassadors from the people of Alexandria was Apion, (29) who uttered many blasphemies against the Jews; and, among other things that he said, he charged them with neglecting the honors that belonged to Caesar; for that while all who were subject to the Roman empire built altars and temples to Gaius, and in other regards universally received him as they received the gods, these Jews alone thought it a dishonorable thing for them to erect statues in honor of him, as well as to swear by his name. Many of these severe things were said by Apion, by which he hoped to provoke Gaius to anger at the Jews, as he was likely to be. But Philo, the principal of the Jewish embassage, a man eminent on all accounts, brother to Alexander the alabarch, (30) and one not unskillful in philosophy, was ready to betake himself to make his defense against those accusations; but Gaius prohibited him, and bid him begone; he was also in such a rage, that it openly appeared he was about to do them some very great mischief. So Philo being thus affronted, went out, and said to those Jews who were about him, that they should be of good courage, since Gaius's words indeed showed anger at them, but in reality had already set God against himself."
[Antiquities of the Jews, xviii.8, § 1, Whiston's translation (online)]
The stories that frame Jesus are taken from pagan myths....virigin birth, 3 wise men, son of God, etc.
Also I cannot accept that there was gilded age where the son of god came to earth and walked on water.
If christ existed as a political figure that's something else.
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Arguments from silence are unreliable. Josephus is a great Jewish historian of that time too and he wrote about both, Philo and Jesus Christ. Josephus was in Jerusalem, while Philo was far away in Egypt at the time. According to Josephus, Philo also had lots problems of his own at the time to worry about Jesus(see below). So if Philo did not mention Jesus, then we shouldn't be surprised as he was too far away and too busy at the time. And there is always the possibility that Philo did write something about Jesus, but it was lost.
"There was now a tumult arisen at Alexandria, between the Jewish inhabitants and the Greeks; and three ambassadors were chosen out of each party that were at variance, who came to Gaius. Now one of these ambassadors from the people of Alexandria was Apion, (29) who uttered many blasphemies against the Jews; and, among other things that he said, he charged them with neglecting the honors that belonged to Caesar; for that while all who were subject to the Roman empire built altars and temples to Gaius, and in other regards universally received him as they received the gods, these Jews alone thought it a dishonorable thing for them to erect statues in honor of him, as well as to swear by his name. Many of these severe things were said by Apion, by which he hoped to provoke Gaius to anger at the Jews, as he was likely to be. But Philo, the principal of the Jewish embassage, a man eminent on all accounts, brother to Alexander the alabarch, (30) and one not unskillful in philosophy, was ready to betake himself to make his defense against those accusations; but Gaius prohibited him, and bid him begone; he was also in such a rage, that it openly appeared he was about to do them some very great mischief. So Philo being thus affronted, went out, and said to those Jews who were about him, that they should be of good courage, since Gaius's words indeed showed anger at them, but in reality had already set God against himself."
[Antiquities of the Jews, xviii.8, § 1, Whiston's translation (online)]
Back to the Josephus forgeries, are we?
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The stories that frame Jesus are taken from pagan myths....virigin birth, 3 wise men, son of God, etc.
Also I cannot accept that there was gilded age where the son of god came to earth and walked on water.
If christ existed as a political figure that's something else.
I see that you didn't even bother to read my posts about the scholarly response to the Jesus myth hypothesis. There are no respectable critical scholars who say that. You know, it doesn't even take a scholar to notice that those parallels between Jesus and pagan myths are fabricated. Any Bible believing Christian knows that Jesus was not born on December 25th, that Jesus was not visited by three kings, etc. Then if you look into the facts about those pagan gods, a lot of the similarities with the Biblical Jesus are fabricated. For example: Horus did not have 12 disciples.
Jesus' birth, death and resurrection were predicted in The Old Testament. So they come from Judaism. Therefore, Jesus' birth, life, death and resurrection did not need to borrow anything from pagan religions, myths or from pagan gods.
"Judaism was a milieu to which doctrines of the deaths and rebirths, of mythical gods seemed so entirely foreign that the emergence of such a fabrication from its midst is very hard to credit."
Grant, Michael (1995). Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels. Scribner, 199. ISBN 978-0684818672.
R.T. France points out that Christianity was actively opposed by both the Roman Empire and the Jewish authorities, and would have been utterly discredited if Jesus had been shown as a non-historical figure. He argues that there is evidence in Pliny, Josephus and other sources of the Roman and Jewish approaches at the time, and none of them involved this suggestion.
France, RT (1986). Evidence for Jesus (Jesus Library). Trafalgar Square Publishing, 19-20. ISBN 0340381728.
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Back to the Josephus forgeries, are we?
Back to outdated conspiracy theories about Josephus forgeries, are we?
Josephus on Jesus - Current state of the debate
Judging from Alice Whealey's 2003 survey of the historiography, it seems that the majority of modern scholars consider that Josephus really did write something here about Jesus, but that the text that has reached us is corrupt to a perhaps quite substantial extent. In the words of the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for Flavius Josephus, "The passage seems to suffer from repeated interpolations." There has been no consensus on which portions are corrupt, or to what degree.
Alice Whealey writes:
Twentieth century controversy over the Testimonium Flavianum can be distinguished from controversy over the text in the early modern period insofar as it seems generally more academic and less sectarian. While the challenge to the authenticity of the Testimonium in the early modern period was orchestrated almost entirely by Protestant scholars and while in the same period Jews outside the church uniformly denounced the text's authenticity, the twentieth century controversies over the text have been marked by the presence of Jewish scholars for the first time as prominent participants on both sides of the question. In general, the attitudes of Protestant, Roman Catholic, Jewish and secular scholars towards the text have drawn closer together, with a greater tendency among scholars of all religious backgrounds to see the text as largely authentic. On the one hand this can be interpreted as the result of an increasing trend towards secularism, which is usually seen as product of modernity. On the other hand it can be interpreted as a sort of post-modern disillusionment with the verities of modern skepticism, and an attempt to recapture the sensibility of the ancient world, when it apparently was still possible for a first-century Jew to have written a text as favorable towards Jesus of Nazareth as the Testimonium Flavianum.
Alice Whealey: Josephus on Jesus: The Testimonium Flavianum Controversy from Late Antiquity to Modern Times (Studies in Biblical Literature, Vol. 36). Peter Lang Publishing (February 2003) ISBN-10: 0820452416
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no ... no supernatural being... ever
as for a guy name jesus... probably
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I see that you didn't even bother to read my posts about the scholarly response to the Jesus myth hypothesis. There are no respectable critical scholars who say that. You know, it doesn't even take a scholar to notice that those parallels between Jesus and pagan myths are fabricated. Any Bible believing Christian knows that Jesus was not born on December 25th, that Jesus was not visited by three kings, etc. Then if you look into the facts about those pagan gods, a lot of the similarities with the Biblical Jesus are fabricated. For example: Horus did not have 12 disciples.
Jesus' birth, death and resurrection were predicted in The Old Testament. So they come from Judaism. Therefore, Jesus' birth, life, death and resurrection did not need to borrow anything from pagan religions, myths or from pagan gods.
"Judaism was a milieu to which doctrines of the deaths and rebirths, of mythical gods seemed so entirely foreign that the emergence of such a fabrication from its midst is very hard to credit."
Grant, Michael (1995). Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels. Scribner, 199. ISBN 978-0684818672.
R.T. France points out that Christianity was actively opposed by both the Roman Empire and the Jewish authorities, and would have been utterly discredited if Jesus had been shown as a non-historical figure. He argues that there is evidence in Pliny, Josephus and other sources of the Roman and Jewish approaches at the time, and none of them involved this suggestion.
France, RT (1986). Evidence for Jesus (Jesus Library). Trafalgar Square Publishing, 19-20. ISBN 0340381728.
No I did read them. I just harkened back to my comparative literature days in college where we discussed the common thematic devices of the old and new testament and I have to tell you, those themes did not originate with the bible. Look at Gilgamesh. Look at the Greek and Roman pantheon of Gods. Predictions and prophecies are replete in those religions just like with Chritianity.
Michael Grant's opinion does not change the fact that death and rebirth memes predate christ--the phoenix, Dionysus...odin...
The bible is not the first book to use these literary devices. In a confusing world it is very seductive to grab onto the certainty of the word of god and treat the bible as an infallible book of history, morality, science, etc, but it isn't. It's a book of stories masterfully written and re-written.
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My guess is that the jury is still out on whether Jesus existed.
TBH, we should not take it for granted that he did, and it would be great if evidence (not the Freakshow kind) could be found in either direction.
As far as Christians goes, it doesn't really matter.
If there was conclusive evidence that there was no Jesus, that could be considered the ultimate test of faith.
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As far as Christians goes, it doesn't really matter.
I know Jesus is/was real. I've seen him work in my life way too many times. I have all the proof I need.
Exactly!
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My guess is that the jury is still out on whether Jesus existed.
TBH, we should not take it for granted that he did, and it would be great if evidence (not the Freakshow kind) could be found in either direction.
As far as Christians goes, it doesn't really matter.
If there was conclusive evidence that there was no Jesus, that could be considered the ultimate test of faith.
Hedge, that's the point. These beliefs are immune to correction. If you had 100% proof Jesus never existed these Christian nuts would still believe this shit.
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Hedge, that's the point. These beliefs are immune to correction. If you had 100% proof Jesus never existed these Christian nuts would still believe this shit.
have not posted in a while because of all the hatred on these boards. you remind me of that hatred.
you have serious problems in your life. why you would spend your life typing on a keyboard spilling you venom in a stupid chat room shows you're a sad pathetic person.
if you don't want to believe in God or Jesus, that's your problem. you'll pay for that one day. but enough of the vile hatred and name calling.
i love God and i love Jesus, but i'm not preaching my hatred on a computer to people that don't.
one day every knee will bow, one day every tongue will confess......
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have not posted in a while because of all the hatred on these boards. you remind me of that hatred.
you have serious problems in your life. why you would spend your life typing on a keyboard spilling you venom in a stupid chat room shows you're a sad pathetic person.
if you don't want to believe in God or Jesus, that's your problem. you'll pay for that one day. but enough of the vile hatred and name calling.
i love God and i love Jesus, but i'm not preaching my hatred on a computer to people that don't.
one day every knee will bow, one day every tongue will confess......
Welcome Fundy; a new head in town or an old one popping up.....I love how Christians are obsessed with vengeance and punishment, great stuff! You do Yaweh proud as he is always fulminating over some insult to his divine majesty (definitely has ego issues). I love Odin and I love Thor; they're much cooler than your godman in a loincloth and his permanently pmsed desert ridden father. I hope you frequent this place more often in any event. Zeus bless you! ;D
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Welcome Fundy; a new head in town or an old one popping up.....I love how Christians are obsessed with vengeance and punishment, great stuff! You do Yaweh proud as he is always fulminating over some insult to his divine majesty (definitely has ego issues). I love Odin and I love Thor; they're much cooler than your godman in a loincloth and his permanently pmsed desert ridden father. I hope you frequent this place more often in any event. Zeus bless you! ;D
And I love how atheists are obsessed with God. ;D
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Thumpidy Thump, Thumpidy Thump, Thumpidy Thump Thump Thump! ;D ::)
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have not posted in a while because of all the hatred on these boards. you remind me of that hatred.
you have serious problems in your life. why you would spend your life typing on a keyboard spilling you venom in a stupid chat room shows you're a sad pathetic person.
if you don't want to believe in God or Jesus, that's your problem. you'll pay for that one day. but enough of the vile hatred and name calling.
i love God and i love Jesus, but i'm not preaching my hatred on a computer to people that don't.
one day every knee will bow, one day every tongue will confess......
As a Christian, you really shouldn't be bothered with what you refer to as "hatred".
Just turn the other cheek, and have faith in Jesus and the love of God.
Don't preach what others should do, lead by example, be loveful. That is the message of Jesus.
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have not posted in a while because of all the hatred on these boards. you remind me of that hatred.
you have serious problems in your life. why you would spend your life typing on a keyboard spilling you venom in a stupid chat room shows you're a sad pathetic person.
if you don't want to believe in God or Jesus, that's your problem. you'll pay for that one day. but enough of the vile hatred and name calling.
i love God and i love Jesus, but i'm not preaching my hatred on a computer to people that don't.
one day every knee will bow, one day every tongue will confess......
Where you been mightymouse? Come back to the board mang. :)
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Where you been mightymouse? Come back to the board mang. :)
what's up beach!
i got really sick of all the hatred and filth on these boards. a debate is fine, but when the name calling, foul language and threats start,.... let's just say i have more important things to do with my life. i really don't see how you deal with it.
about once or twice a week i would browse the gossip boards to get the lastest scoop on a contest or pro, but that's about it. and i will give you some credit, i do notice that you don't post much on these pointless threads where all the anti-god people like to rant and rave. BRAVO beach!!
i may start back posting again but it will be very little. and i'm definitely not going to fight with these atheist.
:D
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what's up beach!
i got really sick of all the hatred and filth on these boards. a debate is fine, but when the name calling, foul language and threats start,.... let's just say i have more important things to do with my life. i really don't see how you deal with it.
about once or twice a week i would browse the gossip boards to get the lastest scoop on a contest or pro, but that's about it. and i will give you some credit, i do notice that you don't post much on these pointless threads where all the anti-god people like to rant and rave. BRAVO beach!!
i may start back posting again but it will be very little. and i'm definitely not going to fight with these atheist.
:D
You shouldn't; you will lose.
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http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=181260.0 :D
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No I did read them. I just harkened back to my comparative literature days in college where we discussed the common thematic devices of the old and new testament and I have to tell you, those themes did not originate with the bible. Look at Gilgamesh. Look at the Greek and Roman pantheon of Gods. Predictions and prophecies are replete in those religions just like with Chritianity.
Michael Grant's opinion does not change the fact that death and rebirth memes predate christ--the phoenix, Dionysus...odin...
The bible is not the first book to use these literary devices. In a confusing world it is very seductive to grab onto the certainty of the word of god and treat the bible as an infallible book of history, morality, science, etc, but it isn't. It's a book of stories masterfully written and re-written.
Jesus' birth, death and resurrection were predicted in The Old Testament. So they come from Judaism.
Judaism predates the Greek and Roman pantheon of Gods.
Roman, Greek and Jewish scholars of the time were far more familiar with those pagan myths than you and I and they would have easily discredited Christianity by showing that it was not but a copy of those pagan myths, but they did not do that. Instead, they used violence to try to destroy Christianity, while some Jews, Romans and Greeks even converted to Christianity.
It is relatively easy to find seemingly meaningful patterns relating any two people or events, but such patterns often do not stand up to rigorous scrutiny.
Lincoln Kennedy coincidences
Both presidents were elected to the presidency in '60.
Both presidents were elected to the House of Representatives in '46.
Both were runners-up for the party's nomination for vice-president in '56.
Both assassins were born in '39.
Both successors were Southern Democrats named Johnson born in '08.
Both presidents were concerned with the problems of American blacks and made their view strongly known in '63. Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation in 1862, which became law in 1863. In 1963, Kennedy presented his reports to Congress on Civil Rights, and the same year was the famous March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom.
Both presidents were shot in the head.
Both presidents were shot on a Friday.
Lincoln was shot at Ford's Theatre. Kennedy was shot in a Ford car; a Lincoln limousine.
Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy who told him not to go to the theatre. Kennedy had a secretary
named Evelyn Lincoln (whose husband Harold's nickname was Abe), and she warned him not to go to Dallas.
Both Oswald and Booth were assassinated before they could be put on trial.
Lincoln and Kennedy each have 7 letters.
John Wilkes Booth and Lee Harvey Oswald each have 15 letters.
There are 6 letters in each Johnson's first name.
Booth shot Lincoln in a theater and hid in a warehouse, while Oswald shot Kennedy in a warehouse and hid in a theater.
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what's up beach!
i got really sick of all the hatred and filth on these boards. a debate is fine, but when the name calling, foul language and threats start,.... let's just say i have more important things to do with my life. i really don't see how you deal with it.
about once or twice a week i would browse the gossip boards to get the lastest scoop on a contest or pro, but that's about it. and i will give you some credit, i do notice that you don't post much on these pointless threads where all the anti-god people like to rant and rave. BRAVO beach!!
i may start back posting again but it will be very little. and i'm definitely not going to fight with these atheist.
:D
Thanks mm. There are actually several who can carry on a discussion without all the ad hominem, etc. It would help if more people like you spent more time on the board.
And you don't have to fight with atheists. Stella, loco, McWay, etc. do a fine job of slapping those heathens around. :D
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Jesus' birth, death and resurrection were predicted in The Old Testament. So they come from Judaism.
Judaism predates the Greek and Roman pantheon of Gods.
Roman, Greek and Jewish scholars of the time were far more familiar with those pagan myths than you and I and they would have easily discredited Christianity by showing that it was not but a copy of those pagan myths, but they did not do that. Instead, they used violence to try to destroy Christianity, while some Jews, Romans and Greeks even converted to Christianity.
It is relatively easy to find seemingly meaningful patterns relating any two people or events, but such patterns often do not stand up to rigorous scrutiny.
Are you going back to the fertile crescent as a Judaic biblical source? When was the Bible written? When was the oral tradition preceding the Bible? Classical antiquity (Ancient Greece & Rome) predates christianity by almost 1000 years. CA involves geographical locales not oral traditions.
I am not saying that Christianity did not exist. I am saying that Christ did not exist. America exists and the ideals of america exist right? Does Captain America exist? Not in the sense that he stands out in reality. He exists as a concept much in the same manner christ existed.
All superheroes are fake...except for superman, he's real. All gods are fake...except for christ, he's real.
Prophecy is not proof. It is religious mysticism. You see it as proof b/c you want to see it as proof.
In the old testament, the son of god was foretold. Then when authors wrote the new testament, well I'll be, the son of god makes an appearance.
I don't take that as evidence that Christ existed as the son of God who is also God. In other words, just b/c the Bible might reference history does not make it a book of history.
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Are you going back to the fertile crescent as a Judaic biblical source? When was the Bible written? When was the oral tradition preceding the Bible? Classical antiquity (Ancient Greece & Rome) predates christianity by almost 1000 years. CA involves geographical locales not oral traditions.
I did not say that ancient Greece and Rome predate Christianity. I said Judaism predates Greece and Rome and Christianity is based on Judaism, not Greek and Roman myths.
I am not saying that Christianity did not exist. I am saying that Christ did not exist. America exists and the ideals of america exist right? Does Captain America exist? Not in the sense that he stands out in reality. He exists as a concept much in the same manner christ existed.
All superheroes are fake...except for superman, he's real. All gods are fake...except for christ, he's real.
Prophecy is not proof. It is religious mysticism. You see it as proof b/c you want to see it as proof.
In the old testament, the son of god was foretold. Then when authors wrote the new testament, well I'll be, the son of god makes an appearance.
I don't take that as evidence that Christ existed as the son of God who is also God. In other words, just b/c the Bible might reference history does not make it a book of history.
Decker, I know that you are not saying that Christianity did not exist. And I never said that I have proof of anything, not for you or anybody else, but for myself I do. What I'm saying is that Jesus did exist. We can argue about whether he was a mere man or the Son of God, but that's beyond this discussion. What I am saying is that Jesus did exist, and even if everything that was written about him in the New Testament wasn't true, it certainly was not copied from Greek and Roman myths. Instead, it is based on the Old Testament.
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I did not say that ancient Greece and Rome predate Christianity. I said Judaism predates Greece and Rome and Christianity is based on Judaism, not Greek and Roman myths.
Decker, I know that you are not saying that Christianity did not exist. And I never said that I have proof of anything, not for you or anybody else, but for myself I do. What I'm saying is that Jesus did exist. We can argue about whether he was a mere man or the Son of God, but that's beyond this discussion. What I am saying is that Jesus did exist, and even if everything that was written about him in the New Testament wasn't true, it certainly was not copied from Greek and Roman myths. Instead, it is based on the Old Testament.
You're a good guy to debate these things with. I appreciate the time you put into it and I do read all of your posts when we are discussing something.
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You're a good guy to debate these things with. I appreciate the time you put into it and I do read all of your posts when we are discussing something.
Thanks, Decker! Likewise! You are a well educated and civilized individual! It's great to be able to have an intelligent discussion with somebody who doesn't resort to name calling and insults for a change.
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Thanks, Decker! Likewise! You are a well educated and civilized individual! It's great to be able to have an intelligent discussion with somebody who doesn't resort to name calling and insults for a change.
Fundy Nutter! ;D
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Fundy Nutter! ;D
Peace be with you, Trapezkerl! ;D