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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: loco on December 20, 2007, 08:08:10 AM
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So much for "Religion Poisons Everything". Not saying that Icelanders owe their national success to their Christian faith, entirely, but religion certainly has not been a hurdle either and has certainly not poisoned anything there.
Society
Iceland is the most developed society in the world, ranked first on the United Nations' Human Development Index.
http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/
Icelanders are the second longest-living nation with a life expectancy at birth of 81.8 years.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ic.html#People
Iceland is a very technologically advanced society. In 1999, 82,3 percent of Icelanders had access to a computer, and this figure has not declined in the last years. Iceland also had 1,007 cell phone subscribtions per 1,000 people in 2006, the 16th highest in the world.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2151rank.html
http://www.visindavefur.is/svar.asp?id=959
Education
There is virtually no adult illiteracy. Education is compulsory for children ages 6 to 16. Icelanders have access to excellent healthcare and education.
http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Europe/Iceland-EDUCATION.html
Economy
Economy is basically capitalistic, yet with an extensive welfare system (including generous housing subsidies), low unemployment, and remarkably even distribution of income.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ic.html#Econ
Iceland is the forth most productive country in the world based on nominal gross domestic product per capita (54,858 USD) and ranks fifth most productive country in the world based on GDP at purchasing power parity (40,112 USD).
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2007/02/weodata/weoselco.aspx?g=2001&sg=All+countries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita
Government
Iceland is a representative democracy and a parliamentary/constitutional republic.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ic.html#Govt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland#Government
Religion in Iceland
Though not a theocracy, there is no separation of Church and State in Iceland.
Freedom of religion is guaranteed in Iceland by the Constitution. There is a State church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church, to which about 83% of the population belongs. Other denominations: Evangelical Lutheran Free churches (4.7%), Roman Catholic Church (2,4%), Pentecostal and Charismatic Congregations (1.0%) and others (5.5%). Non-affiliated amount to 2.6% of the population.
Millennium of the Conversion to Christianity in 2000
The conversion of Iceland to Christianity was a unique event. A whole society abandoned its ancient heathen belief and peacefully adopted the Christian faith. This happened at the opening session of Althing, the parliament, at Thingvellir in the year 1000, when the nation faced bitter divisions. The Speaker, Thorgeir of Ljósavatn, himself a heathen, addressed Althingi and spoke the classic words: "If the law torn asunder, so will the peace". He declared that all Icelanders should be baptized into Christianity. This decision is considered to be the most important ever taken at Althingi since its establishment in 930 AD.
http://www.iceland.is/people-and-society/Religion/
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One of the top 10 most stuck-up bitches I ever met was from Iceland.
Two of the top 10 were from Ethiopia.
WTF is up with that?
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Iceland is a fantastic country.
Travelling there is out of the scope of most Americans, but for any that can, and for most Europeans I would very much recommend a visit.
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So much for "Religion Poisons Everything". Not saying that Icelanders owe their national success to their Christian faith, entirely, but religion certainly has not been a hurdle either and has certainly not poisoned anything there.
Society
Iceland is the most developed society in the world, ranked first on the United Nations' Human Development Index.
http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/
Icelanders are the second longest-living nation with a life expectancy at birth of 81.8 years.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ic.html#People
Iceland is a very technologically advanced society. In 1999, 82,3 percent of Icelanders had access to a computer, and this figure has not declined in the last years. Iceland also had 1,007 cell phone subscribtions per 1,000 people in 2006, the 16th highest in the world.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2151rank.html
http://www.visindavefur.is/svar.asp?id=959
Education
There is virtually no adult illiteracy. Education is compulsory for children ages 6 to 16. Icelanders have access to excellent healthcare and education.
http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Europe/Iceland-EDUCATION.html
Economy
Economy is basically capitalistic, yet with an extensive welfare system (including generous housing subsidies), low unemployment, and remarkably even distribution of income.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ic.html#Econ
Iceland is the forth most productive country in the world based on nominal gross domestic product per capita (54,858 USD) and ranks fifth most productive country in the world based on GDP at purchasing power parity (40,112 USD).
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2007/02/weodata/weoselco.aspx?g=2001&sg=All+countries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita
Government
Iceland is a representative democracy and a parliamentary/constitutional republic.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ic.html#Govt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland#Government
Religion in Iceland
Though not a theocracy, there is no separation of Church and State in Iceland.
Freedom of religion is guaranteed in Iceland by the Constitution. There is a State church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church, to which about 83% of the population belongs. Other denominations: Evangelical Lutheran Free churches (4.7%), Roman Catholic Church (2,4%), Pentecostal and Charismatic Congregations (1.0%) and others (5.5%). Non-affiliated amount to 2.6% of the population.
Millennium of the Conversion to Christianity in 2000
The conversion of Iceland to Christianity was a unique event. A whole society abandoned its ancient heathen belief and peacefully adopted the Christian faith. This happened at the opening session of Althing, the parliament, at Thingvellir in the year 1000, when the nation faced bitter divisions. The Speaker, Thorgeir of Ljósavatn, himself a heathen, addressed Althingi and spoke the classic words: "If the law torn asunder, so will the peace". He declared that all Icelanders should be baptized into Christianity. This decision is considered to be the most important ever taken at Althingi since its establishment in 930 AD.
http://www.iceland.is/people-and-society/Religion/
Loco, you set yourself up. I have lived in Iceland and though there is no seperation of church and state much like in Norway, no one gives a fuck about religion and the society as a whole is quite atheistic. They have forgotten about religion and have moved on with their lives.
Island er falllegt land!
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Loco, you set yourself up. I have lived in Iceland and though there is no seperation of church and state much like in Norway, no one gives a fuck about religion and the society as a whole is quite atheistic. They have forgotten about religion and have moved on with their lives.
Island er falllegt land!
How am I setting myself up? I simply posted some facts.
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How am I setting myself up? I simply posted some facts.
Because Iceland shows where society could be if it gave up on old superstitions and religious nonsense.
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Because Iceland shows where society could be if it gave up on old superstitions and religious nonsense.
Okay, since you've lived there, I won't argue with you. So what was it like to live there? Did you like it? Why did you move?
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Okay, since you've lived there, I won't argue with you. So what was it like to live there? Did you like it? Why did you move?
Well I was studying Icelandic language and literature at the time. I enjoyed it. I love the language (though I can barely get by these days as I have never practised since). I was only there for a limited time, half a year, still enough to get an idea how the society works. In any event it is outrageously expensive. I don't drink but the standard quote is that a beer will cost you 15 dollars...assuming my plans work out for the future I am debating if I would seek employment over there. I don't know as there as downsides as well. Mer finnast Island gott! I like Iceland a lot!
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Well I was studying Icelandic language and literature at the time. I enjoyed it. I love the language (though I can barely get by these days as I have never practised since). I was only there for a limited time, half a year, still enough to get an idea how the society works. In any event it is outrageously expensive. I don't drink but the standard quote is that a beer will cost you 15 dollars...assuming my plans work out for the future I am debating if I would seek employment over there. I don't know as there as downsides as well. Mer finnast Island gott! I like Iceland a lot!
Sounds like a great place to live. It being so expensive doesn't sound great, but the economy is good and unemployment is low which I would think makes up for it. What other downsides are there, and what does "Mer finnast Island gott" mean?
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Sounds like a great place to live. It being so expensive doesn't sound great, but the economy is good and unemployment is low which I would think makes up for it. What other downsides are there, and what does "Mer finnast Island gott" mean?
I just told you; it means I like Iceland a lot.
With 260,000 people much is easier to manage.
Downsides? Isolated, barren, people can be grim; you really need a reason to be there; for me it would be the language.
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I just told you; it means I like Iceland a lot.
Sorry! I thought you were giving me one of the downsides in a foreign language and then telling me that you like Iceland a lot anyway. ;D
With 260,000 people much is easier to manage.
Downsides? Isolated, barren, people can be grim; you really need a reason to be there; for me it would be the language.
Thank you! I don't even remember why I first started reading about Iceland a little while back, but the more I learned about it, the more curious I got and the more I liked it. I might visit some day if I can afford it.
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Sorry! I thought you were giving me one of the downsides in a foreign language and then telling me that you like Iceland a lot anyway. ;D
Thank you! I don't even remember why I first started reading about Iceland a little while back, but the more I learned about it, the more curious I got and the more I liked it. I might visit some day if I can afford it.
It is a very beautiful country. Thath er moerg falllegt land!
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The Icelandic chicks I met on holiday in Spain one year were every bit as hot as I'd always thought they would be.
One was a stone cold fucking BITCH, though, but was willing to at least let her girlfriends have some fun for a few hours the first night we met. It took me another TWO whole fucking days to close that shit (not with the bitch, but with another one).
One thing was clear - unlike most women I've encountered in other parts of the world, the Icelandic women gave less than a shit that we were Americans. It's not like we flashed the 'love-us-cuz-we're-Americans' card, but anytime other women found out you were from the U.S., it seemed like they were suddenly all over you. Not so with the Icelandic girls.
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The Icelandic chicks I met on holiday in Spain one year were every bit as hot as I'd always thought they would be.
One was a stone cold fucking BITCH, though, but was willing to at least let her girlfriends have some fun for a few hours the first night we met. It took me another TWO whole fucking days to close that shit (not with the bitch, but with another one).
One thing was clear - unlike most women I've encountered in other parts of the world, the Icelandic women gave less than a shit that we were Americans. It's not like we flashed the 'love-us-cuz-we're-Americans' card, but anytime other women found out you were from the U.S., it seemed like they were suddenly all over you. Not so with the Icelandic girls.
Icelandic people travel a lot and often work abroad; they are impressed because you were born in a country, much less the USA. They don't give a rat's ass.
Honestly, having lived in Europe for years I find your statement that you can flash an 'American Card' and get a girl ridiculous; most Europeans don't give a fuck and some (like the Dutch) generally can't stand Americans.
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Icelandic people travel a lot and often work abroad; they are impressed because you were born in a country, much less the USA. They don't give a rat's ass.
Honestly, having lived in Europe for years I find your statement that you can flash an 'American Card' and get a girl ridiculous; most Europeans don't give a fuck and some (like the Dutch) generally can't stand Americans.
Come on now, don't ruin his fantasy!
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Loco, you set yourself up. I have lived in Iceland and though there is no seperation of church and state much like in Norway, no one gives a fuck about religion and the society as a whole is quite atheistic. They have forgotten about religion and have moved on with their lives.
Island er falllegt land!
Trapezkerl,
What do you think about these numbers?
According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2005
38% of Icelandic citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
48% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
11% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force".
3% responded that they "don't know".
Eurobarometer on Social Values, Science and technology 2005 - page 11
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_225_report_en.pdf
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Trapezkerl,
What do you think about these numbers?
According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2005
38% of Icelandic citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
48% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
11% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force".
3% responded that they "don't know".
Eurobarometer on Social Values, Science and technology 2005 - page 11
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_225_report_en.pdf
Pretty vague stuff even if true though no Icelander acts like your friends here:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/19/btsc.tuchman.roadsideprayer/index.html?eref=rss_us#cnnSTCVideo
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Icelandic people travel a lot and often work abroad; they are impressed because you were born in a country, much less the USA. They don't give a rat's ass.
Honestly, having lived in Europe for years I find your statement that you can flash an 'American Card' and get a girl ridiculous; most Europeans don't give a fuck and some (like the Dutch) generally can't stand Americans.
I know what you're saying, but that hasn't been my experience at all - the women in Sweden, Germany, Austria, Italy, (parts of) France, Spain, Poland and especially Greece to name a few seemed to really be into it. Again, I'm not the guy trying to pull any of that Hollywood movie crap, I just couldn't help but notice this.
I've only dated one little Dutch girl in my life and that was back in school...LONG time ago. She was an au pair for this family in Carolina, went away on vacation with them one summer, and never returned. She hated me that much! lol
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How am I setting myself up? I simply posted some facts.
You didn't post facts. Christianity's into into that society wasn't entirely peaceful.
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You didn't post facts. Christianity's into into that society wasn't entirely peaceful.
I didn't? So I posted lies? So the Ministry for Foreign Affairs is telling lies here?
"A whole society abandoned its ancient heathen belief and peacefully adopted the Christian faith."
http://www.iceland.is/people-and-society/Religion/
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Pretty vague stuff even if true though no Icelander acts like your friends here:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/19/btsc.tuchman.roadsideprayer/index.html?eref=rss_us#cnnSTCVideo
Well, it is true. I didn't just make it up.
And I do know that some Icelanders do act like the people on the video that you posted. Those are Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians. I am not Pentecostal/Charismatic, but some Icelanders are:
"There is a State church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church, to which about 83% of the population belongs. Other denominations: Evangelical Lutheran Free churches (4.7%), Roman Catholic Church (2,4%), Pentecostal and Charismatic Congregations (1.0%) and others (5.5%). Non-affiliated amount to 2.6% of the population."
http://www.iceland.is/people-and-society/Religion/
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Trapezkerl,
What do you think about these numbers?
According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2005
38% of Icelandic citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
48% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
11% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force".
3% responded that they "don't know".
Eurobarometer on Social Values, Science and technology 2005 - page 11
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_225_report_en.pdf
If you would ask Icelanders if they were Christians, I'm sure you would get a fairly low positive response.
The point is, that while in Scandinavia and on Iceland, quite a few people refer to themselves as "believers in something", you would be hardpressed to get these same people to subscribe to the Christian depiction of God and how the world was created.
Intelligent Design isn't even an issue in this part of the world, just to give you an idea.
And even most active Christians are Pro Choice, tolerant on Gay Issues et al.
Sure, most Swedes could be considered Christians. Why? It has a reason. Back in the 16th century, one of the kings decided to merge the church with the state, in order to get control of the riches of the church.
This happened during the Protestant movement in Germany, and thus it was possible for the king to better the state finances without having to face the Roman Church on his own.
From that day on, all Swedes were automatically born into the State Church register, with Church Tax et al. You have to make an active choice to leave the church. Most people don't, although in recent years, many have opted to do it.
If you want, you can obviously interpret the statistics as if there are millions of Christians in Sweden.
But the real numbers are much lower.
Like Mark Twain once said: "There are three kinds of lies: Lies, damn lies, and statistics." 8)
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If you would ask Icelanders if they were Christians, I'm sure you would get a fairly low positive response.
The point is, that while in Scandinavia and on Iceland, quite a few people refer to themselves as "believers in something", you would be hardpressed to get these same people to subscribe to the Christian depiction of God and how the world was created.
Intelligent Design isn't even an issue in this part of the world, just to give you an idea.
And even most active Christians are Pro Choice, tolerant on Gay Issues et al.
Sure, most Swedes could be considered Christians. Why? It has a reason. Back in the 16th century, one of the kings decided to merge the church with the state, in order to get control of the riches of the church.
This happened during the Protestant movement in Germany, and thus it was possible for the king to better the state finances without having to face the Roman Church on his own.
From that day on, all Swedes were automatically born into the State Church register, with Church Tax et al. You have to make an active choice to leave the church. Most people don't, although in recent years, many have opted to do it.
If you want, you can obviously interpret the statistics as if there are millions of Christians in Sweden.
But the real numbers are much lower.
Like Mark Twain once said: "There are three kinds of lies: Lies, damn lies, and statistics." 8)
Það er mörg sott!
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If you would ask Icelanders if they were Christians, I'm sure you would get a fairly low positive response.
The point is, that while in Scandinavia and on Iceland, quite a few people refer to themselves as "believers in something", you would be hardpressed to get these same people to subscribe to the Christian depiction of God and how the world was created.
Intelligent Design isn't even an issue in this part of the world, just to give you an idea.
And even most active Christians are Pro Choice, tolerant on Gay Issues et al.
Sure, most Swedes could be considered Christians. Why? It has a reason. Back in the 16th century, one of the kings decided to merge the church with the state, in order to get control of the riches of the church.
This happened during the Protestant movement in Germany, and thus it was possible for the king to better the state finances without having to face the Roman Church on his own.
From that day on, all Swedes were automatically born into the State Church register, with Church Tax et al. You have to make an active choice to leave the church. Most people don't, although in recent years, many have opted to do it.
If you want, you can obviously interpret the statistics as if there are millions of Christians in Sweden.
But the real numbers are much lower.
Like Mark Twain once said: "There are three kinds of lies: Lies, damn lies, and statistics." 8)
Thanks for the info and for the explanation, Hedgehog!
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Thanks for the info and for the explanation, Hedgehog!
I see you made a total fool of yourself on this thread, assuming devout 'Christian' faith on the part of Icelanders.... ::)
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I see you made a total fool of yourself on this thread, assuming devout 'Christian' faith on the part of Icelanders.... ::)
You always have such a loving, peaceful and friendly attitude, Trapezkerl! ;D
I have not made a fool of myself. I simply shared some interesting facts about Iceland and I posted references. It's not like I made this up. I appreciate yours and Hedgehog's input. But I still doubt your claim that Iceland's "society as a whole is quite atheistic".
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You always have such a loving, peaceful and friendly attitude, Trapezkerl! ;D
I have not made a fool of myself. I simply shared some interesting facts about Iceland and I posted references. It's not like I made this up. I appreciate yours and Hedgehog's input. But I still doubt your claim that Iceland's "society as a whole is quite atheistic".
The point was that those facts about societal health have absolutely zilch to do with 'their Christian faith'...that's the point and I believe that was the premise of your post, was it not?
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I didn't? So I posted lies? So the Ministry for Foreign Affairs is telling lies here?
"A whole society abandoned its ancient heathen belief and peacefully adopted the Christian faith."
http://www.iceland.is/people-and-society/Religion/
Don't be shocked that an official would tell lies. yes this is a lie, I'm sorry to inform you, there were vicious murders committed. I have my books on this packed away but if I remember after I get done with my move, I'll post details. There was no big wars on this so relatively speaking it was peaceful. But purely peaceful, no way. There were calculated moves made that cost lives.
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Don't be shocked that an official would tell lies. yes this is a lie, I'm sorry to inform you, there were vicious murders committed. I have my books on this packed away but if I remember after I get done with my move, I'll post details. There was no big wars on this so relatively speaking it was peaceful. But purely peaceful, no way. There were calculated moves made that cost lives.
I wouldn't be shocked, but I do look forward to your proof to back up your claims. What makes your books so much more truthful and trustworthy than the Ministry for Foreign Affairs? I don't mean this in a bad way. I really do want to learn more about this.
By the way, Berserker, whether Iceland adopted the Christian faith peacefully or not has nothing to do with the point of this thread. It's nice that they did, if they did, but if they didn't so be it.
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The point was that those facts about societal health have absolutely zilch to do with 'their Christian faith'...that's the point and I believe that was the premise of your post, was it not?
No. I stated the point of this thread at the very beginning:
So much for "Religion Poisons Everything".
My point is that Iceland's religious history has done zilch to prevent or to slow down society's development.
You have the US where there is separation of church and state and it ranked 12th on the United Nations' Human Development. France, if I'm not mistaken, is the most secular of the West European nations with the lowest church attendance, yet it ranked 10th. Then there is communist Russia and Cuba where religion was once banned, and that did nothing for their society. Today, Cuba ranks 51st and Russia ranks 67th. Iceland on the other hand, with no separation of church and state, with freedom of religion and with a state church is the most developed society in the world, ranked 1st on the United Nations' Human Development Index.
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My point is that Iceland's religious history has done zilch to prevent or to slow down society's development.
FWIW,
the percentage of active Christians in either Russia or Cuba is probably higher than on Iceland.
JMO.
And I wouldn't say that Iceland has a more religious history than Russia, eg.
I'm sure you would agree.
Look at how powerful the Russian-Orthodox church has been through the centuries, and what power it manifested on the Russian population.
So Iceland has a highly developed democracy. Russia is lagging.
According to Putnam's theories, it doesn't depend on whether the country is religious or not.
But rather, whether there is organized social activism, eg bowling clubs, choirs, book clubs, debate teams, baseball leagues, football clubs, et al.
Things like this will strengthen the foundation for democracy.
If you look at Iceland, they have a long tradition of folk dance meets, folk music convents, and various forums where the members of the community socialize, and interact.
Looking at many African nations, there are very few areas where there is a foundation for democracy. That's why football clubs, choirs, music orchestras et al should be encouraged as well, why activities like those should receive economic aid, as well as the educational system or business system.
There has to be a foundation to build democracy on. Otherwise there is little or no chance of success.
Iraq will definitely be a failure unless we can give the Iraqi people help with building socializing forums.
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According to Putnam's theories, it doesn't depend on whether the country is religious or not.
But rather, whether there is organized social activism, eg bowling clubs, choirs, book clubs, debate teams, baseball leagues, football clubs, et al.
Things like this will strengthen the foundation for democracy.
It takes more than just socializing and bowling together. I believe that you once agreed with me that democracy without morality does not work. That means that we must bowl not only together, but we must bowl together with good morals. What good is it for us to bowl together if we were to value cheating without getting caught more than winning fair and square?
Robert D. Putnam's theories are interesting and make sense, but if true, what can bring Americans together more than the church? Many Americans attend church on Wednesday evening, Sunday morning and Sunday evening. Add to that choir practice, orchestra practice, smaller church group Bible study, church bowling leagues and other sports activities, church weight watchers, community work, service projects for widows, orphans, the homeless, etc. Your typical American, mid size, Christian church is a big family. Everybody knows everybody. They are aware of each others needs and they help one another. If Putnam's theory is correct, then the church is a big part of what has helped America remain a democratic republic with the same constitution for over 200 years.
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It takes more than just socializing and bowling together. I believe that you once agreed with me that democracy without morality does not work. That means that we must bowl not only together, but we must bowl together with good morals. What good is it for us to bowl together if we were to value cheating without getting caught more than winning fair and square?
Robert D. Putnam's theories are interesting and make sense, but if true, what can bring Americans together more than the church? Many Americans attend church on Wednesday evening, Sunday morning and Sunday evening. Add to that choir practice, orchestra practice, smaller church group Bible study, church bowling leagues and other sports activities, church weight watchers, community work, service projects for widows, orphans, the homeless, etc. Your typical American, mid size, Christian church is a big family. Everybody knows everybody. They are aware of each others needs and they help one another. If Putnam's theory is correct, then the church is a big part of what has helped America remain a democratic republic with the same constitution for over 200 years.
The activities within the church are what helps build the foundation for democracy.
Not the faith itself.
And why have we all these activities in the churches?
It isn't at all like that in other countries. The church is much more faith-only in Europe.
In the USA, several churches have become social clubs, where the Bible studies and the Sunday activity is less an act of worshipping God, and more of interacting with friends.
In England, there are Men's Clubs, Dinner Clubs, Rugby Clubs, Dart Clubs, et al that has the similar function.
I believe that you once agreed with me that democracy without morality does not work. That means that we must bowl not only together, but we must bowl together with good morals. What good is it for us to bowl together if we were to value cheating without getting caught more than winning fair and square?
Democracy depends on, among other things, social capital. The social capital between people: eg trust.
This is what makes us behave democratic, ie what you perhaps refer to as moral.
This particular social capital becomes high by the very existance of organisations that lets us socialize, activities.
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It's funny how most of the most secular countries in the world are ahead of the pious USA and Loco ignores that! :D
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It's funny how most of the most secular countries in the world are ahead of the pious USA and Loco ignores that! :D
I don't ignore this, Trapezkerl. I just don't think that it has anything to do with secularism or religion. The "pious USA" is ahead of secular United Kingdom and not far behind the most secular of all, France.
There is more to it than just religion and secularism. France seems to be having a lot of problems right now with the poor rioting because they are frustrated with their living conditions, even though lots of euros have been poured into the country to try to solve the problem. When was the last time you heard of frustrated poor rioting in the US because of high unemployment, underperforming schools, and inadequate housing?
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I don't ignore this, Trapezkerl. I just don't think that it has anything to do with secularism or religion. The "pious USA" is ahead of secular United Kingdom and not far behind the most secular of all, France.
There is more to it than just religion and secularism. France seems to be having a lot of problems right now with the poor rioting because they are frustrated with their living conditions, even though lots of euros have been poured into the country to try to solve the problem. When was the last time you heard of frustrated poor rioting in the US because of high unemployment, underperforming schools, and inadequate housing?
Rioting aside there are more violent deaths in the US than in France. I don't know how you come by the idea that France is the most secular either.
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I don't ignore this, Trapezkerl. I just don't think that it has anything to do with secularism or religion. The "pious USA" is ahead of secular United Kingdom and not far behind the most secular of all, France.
There is more to it than just religion and secularism. France seems to be having a lot of problems right now with the poor rioting because they are frustrated with their living conditions, even though lots of euros have been poured into the country to try to solve the problem. When was the last time you heard of frustrated poor rioting in the US because of high unemployment, underperforming schools, and inadequate housing?
Well, just of late in New Orleans actually... ;)
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So much for "Religion Poisons Everything". Not saying that Icelanders owe their national success to their Christian faith, entirely, but religion certainly has not been a hurdle either and has certainly not poisoned anything there.
Society
Iceland is the most developed society in the world, ranked first on the United Nations' Human Development Index.
http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/
Icelanders are the second longest-living nation with a life expectancy at birth of 81.8 years.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ic.html#People
Iceland is a very technologically advanced society. t
Education
There is virtually no adult illiteracy. Education is compulsory for children ages 6 to 16. Icelanders have access to excellent healthcare and education.http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Europe/Iceland-EDUCATION.html
Economy
Economy is basically capitalistic, yet with an extensive welfare system (including generous housing subsidies), low unemployment, and remarkably even distribution of income.[/size]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ic.html#Econ
extensive welfare system, remarkably even distirbution of income, access to excellent healthcare and education
hmm.....
sounds like Utopia
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I lived in Iceland for 1 1/2 years and it wasn't the utopia it's being out to be in this thread. I enjoyed it, but it had one of the highest rates of suicide and alcoholism in the world. That was according to the Icelanders who briefed us on local customs, etc...
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Hmmm, i wonder if suicide rates are higher among atheists?
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I lived in Iceland for 1 1/2 years and it wasn't the utopia it's being out to be in this thread. I enjoyed it, but it had one of the highest rates of suicide and alcoholism in the world. That was according to the Icelanders who briefed us on local customs, etc...
I knew it sounded too good to be true
according to Wiki the traditional cuisine includes cured ram scrota, singed sheep heads
If I had to eat that I might want to kill myself too
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I knew it sounded too good to be true
according to Wiki the traditional cuisine includes cured ram scrota, singed sheep heads
If I had to eat that I might want to kill myself too
To live in Iceland you really need to be interested in the culture, language and history; fortunately for me I was/am.
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Hmmm, i wonder if suicide rates are higher among atheists?
Good question. Maybe so: http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303
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Good question. Maybe so: http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303
Irrelevant; even if every athiest were a raving maniac it wouldn't have the slightest bearing on the truth claims of religions.
That something is useful does not mean it is true.
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List of countries by suicide rate
The following is a List of suicide rates by country according to data from the World Health Organization in which a country's rank is determined by its total rate of suicides.
Rank Country Year Males Females Total
1. Lithuania[3][4] 2005 68.1 12.9 38.6
2. Belarus 2003 63.3 10.3 35.1
3. Russia 2004 61.6 10.7 34.3
4. Kazakhstan 2003 51.0 8.9 29.2
5. Slovenia 2003 45.0 12.0 28.1
6. Hungary 2003 44.9 12.0 27.7
7. Guyana 2003 42.5 12.1 27.2
8. Latvia 2004 42.9 8.5 24.3
9. Japan 2004 35.6 12.8 24.0
10. Ukraine 2004 43.0 7.3 23.8
11. Sri Lanka 1996 NA NA 21.6
12. Belgium 1997 31.2 11.4 21.1
13. Finland 2004 31.7 9.4 20.3
14. Estonia 2005 35.5 7.3 20.3
15. Croatia 2004 30.2 9.8 19.6
16. Serbia and Montenegro 2002 28.8 10.4 19.3
17. Hong Kong SAR, China 2004 25.2 12.4 18.6
18. Cuba 1996 24.5 12.0 18.3
19. France 2003 27.5 9.1 18
20. Austria 2003 27.1 9.3 17.9
21. Republic of Korea 2002 24.7 11.2 17.9
22. Switzerland 2004 23.7 11.3 17.4
23. Republic of Moldova 2004 29.3 5.2 16.7
24. Czech Republic 2004 25.9 5.7 15.5
24. Poland 2002 26.6 5.0 15.5
26. Romania 2002 23.9 4.7 14.1
27. Bulgaria 2003 21.0 7.3 14.0
28. China (selected areas) 1999 13.0 14.8 13.9
29. Denmark 2000 20.2 7.2 13.6
30. Germany 2001 20.4 7.0 13.5
31. Slovakia 2002 23.6 3.6 13.3
32. Sweden 2002 19.5 7.1 13.2
32. Seychelles 1998 NA NA 13.2
34. Australia 2001 20.1 5.3 12.7
34. Ireland 2001 21.4 4.1 12.7
36. Iceland 2001 19.6 5.6 12.6
37. Canada 2001 18.7 5.2 11.9
37. Mauritius 2000 18.8 5.2 11.9
37. New Zealand 2000 19.8 4.2 11.9
37. Suriname 1992 16.6 7.2 11.9
41. Bosnia and Herzegovina 1991 20.3 3.3 11.8
42. Portugal 2002 18.9 4.9 11.7
43. Trinidad and Tobago 1994 17.4 5 11.6
44. Norway 2004 15.8 7.3 11.5
45. United States 2002 17.9 4.2 11.0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
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List of countries by suicide rate
The following is a List of suicide rates by country according to data from the World Health Organization in which a country's rank is determined by its total rate of suicides.
Rank Country Year Males Females Total
1. Lithuania[3][4] 2005 68.1 12.9 38.6
2. Belarus 2003 63.3 10.3 35.1
3. Russia 2004 61.6 10.7 34.3
4. Kazakhstan 2003 51.0 8.9 29.2
5. Slovenia 2003 45.0 12.0 28.1
6. Hungary 2003 44.9 12.0 27.7
7. Guyana 2003 42.5 12.1 27.2
8. Latvia 2004 42.9 8.5 24.3
9. Japan 2004 35.6 12.8 24.0
10. Ukraine 2004 43.0 7.3 23.8
11. Sri Lanka 1996 NA NA 21.6
12. Belgium 1997 31.2 11.4 21.1
13. Finland 2004 31.7 9.4 20.3
14. Estonia 2005 35.5 7.3 20.3
15. Croatia 2004 30.2 9.8 19.6
16. Serbia and Montenegro 2002 28.8 10.4 19.3
17. Hong Kong SAR, China 2004 25.2 12.4 18.6
18. Cuba 1996 24.5 12.0 18.3
19. France 2003 27.5 9.1 18
20. Austria 2003 27.1 9.3 17.9
21. Republic of Korea 2002 24.7 11.2 17.9
22. Switzerland 2004 23.7 11.3 17.4
23. Republic of Moldova 2004 29.3 5.2 16.7
24. Czech Republic 2004 25.9 5.7 15.5
24. Poland 2002 26.6 5.0 15.5
26. Romania 2002 23.9 4.7 14.1
27. Bulgaria 2003 21.0 7.3 14.0
28. China (selected areas) 1999 13.0 14.8 13.9
29. Denmark 2000 20.2 7.2 13.6
30. Germany 2001 20.4 7.0 13.5
31. Slovakia 2002 23.6 3.6 13.3
32. Sweden 2002 19.5 7.1 13.2
32. Seychelles 1998 NA NA 13.2
34. Australia 2001 20.1 5.3 12.7
34. Ireland 2001 21.4 4.1 12.7
36. Iceland 2001 19.6 5.6 12.6
37. Canada 2001 18.7 5.2 11.9
37. Mauritius 2000 18.8 5.2 11.9
37. New Zealand 2000 19.8 4.2 11.9
37. Suriname 1992 16.6 7.2 11.9
41. Bosnia and Herzegovina 1991 20.3 3.3 11.8
42. Portugal 2002 18.9 4.9 11.7
43. Trinidad and Tobago 1994 17.4 5 11.6
44. Norway 2004 15.8 7.3 11.5
45. United States 2002 17.9 4.2 11.0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
The USA makes up for it with murder:
Murders (most recent) by country:
Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 India: 37,170
#2 Russia: 28,904
#3 Colombia: 26,539
#4 South Africa: 21,995
#5 Mexico: 13,829
#6 United States: 12,658
#7 Venezuela: 8,022
#8 Thailand: 5,140
#9 Ukraine: 4,418
#10 Indonesia: 2,204
#11 Poland: 2,170
#12 France: 1,051
#13 Belarus: 1,013
#14 Germany: 960
#15 Korea, South: 955
#16 Zimbabwe: 912
#17 Jamaica: 887
#18 United Kingdom: 850
#19 Zambia: 797
#20 Italy: 746
#21 Yemen: 697
#22 Japan: 637
#23 Romania: 560
#24 Malaysia: 551
#25 Spain: 494
#26 Canada: 489
#27 Papua New Guinea: 465
#28 Kyrgyzstan: 413
#29 Lithuania: 370
#30 Moldova: 348
#31 Bulgaria: 332
#32 Australia: 302
#33 Portugal: 247
#34 Costa Rica: 245
#35 Georgia: 239
#36 Latvia: 238
#37 Chile: 235
#38 Azerbaijan: 226
#39 Hungary: 205
#40 Netherlands: 183
#41 Czech Republic: 174
#42 Uruguay: 154
#43 Finland: 148
#44 Slovakia: 143
#45 Estonia: 143
#46 Armenia: 127
#47 Tunisia: 113
#48 Saudi Arabia: 105
#49 Greece: 81
#50 Switzerland: 69
#51 Denmark: 58
#52 Norway: 49
#53 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 47
#54 New Zealand: 45
#55 Ireland: 38
#56 Hong Kong: 38
#57 Slovenia: 36
#58 Mauritius: 26
#59 Seychelles: 6
#60 Iceland: 5
#61 Dominica: 2
#62 Qatar: 1
Total: 180,304
Weighted average: 2,908.1
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Good question. Maybe so: http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303
The subjects of this study were 371 depressed inpatients from two physciatric hospitals in New York. Among other factors, religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation.
I'm not sure if one can look at this study and draw conclusions about a healthy population
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List of countries by suicide rate
The following is a List of suicide rates by country according to data from the World Health Organization in which a country's rank is determined by its total rate of suicides.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
from the same Wiki link:
This list should be used with caution. Little data is available documenting suicide rates in Africa, and the Middle East. Even in countries where cause-of-death data is collected systematically, differing societal attitudes toward suicide may impact the recorded figures (e.g., misreporting a suicide as an accidental death out of deference for the bereaved). Also, due to the highly corrupt police forces in Eastern Europe, many murders are written off as suicides
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#7 Venezuela: 8,022
Venezuela...I'm not surprised. :-\
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Irrelevant; even if every athiest were a raving maniac it wouldn't have the slightest bearing on the truth claims of religions.
That something is useful does not mean it is true.
Who made the claim that higher suicide rates among atheists proves "truth claims" (whatever that means) of religions?
I think a question like this is relevant to whether a person’s faith gives them a more meaningful life, gives them a sense of purpose, and more importantly hope.
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Wow, look how many men take their lives in comparison to women! :o
If you ask me, it's just because women don't have the balls to do it! :-*
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Who made the claim that higher suicide rates among atheists proves "truth claims" (whatever that means) of religions?
I think a question like this is relevant to whether a person’s faith gives them a more meaningful life, gives them a sense of purpose, and more importantly hope.
Perhaps, but if a purpose and meaning are founded on irrational claims or worse on the preposterously untrue, would it even matter to you? I often feel the faithful don't care much about truth, so long as they feel good.
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Perhaps, but if a purpose and meaning are founded on irrational claims or worse on the preposterously untrue, would it even matter to you? I often feel the faithful don't care much about truth, so long as they feel good.
I can't speak for anyone else, so I can't answer your question as it relates to others. For me personally, all I can say is you cannot prove or disprove faith-based claims to anyone. All you can do is rely on your own experience and those of others.
Who are "the faithful" and what kind of interaction do you have with them?
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I don't ignore this, Trapezkerl. I just don't think that it has anything to do with secularism or religion. The "pious USA" is ahead of secular United Kingdom and not far behind the most secular of all, France.
There is more to it than just religion and secularism. France seems to be having a lot of problems right now with the poor rioting because they are frustrated with their living conditions, even though lots of euros have been poured into the country to try to solve the problem. When was the last time you heard of frustrated poor rioting in the US because of high unemployment, underperforming schools, and inadequate housing?
The riotings in France are wholly a question of religion versus secularism, as the "rioters" you speak of are almost 100% comprised of an angry muslim community unwilling to accept, or be accepted by, a secular, mainstream culture.
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I can't speak for anyone else, so I can't answer your question as it relates to others. For me personally, all I can say is you cannot prove or disprove faith-based claims to anyone. All you can do is rely on your own experience and those of others.
Who are "the faithful" and what kind of interaction do you have with them?
I don't have any 'faithful' friends and I think I would find it difficult to stomach such a human relationship; we have diametrically opposed views of the world. My interaction with them comes mostly from reading their books and dealing with them online.
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I don't have any 'faithful' friends and I think I would find it difficult to stomach such a human relationship; we have diametrically opposed views of the world. My interaction with them comes mostly from reading their books and dealing with them online.
You should try interacting with "the faithful" a little more. Might change your outlook.
I do think your attitude is typical of many atheists. It borders on paranoia. Rather than be comfortable with believing in nothing, many atheists get irritated or even angry about the prevalence of religion in society or the fact someone is open about their faith.
I interact with believers and non-believers and I can stomach relationships with all of them.
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I have lot's of friends with various religious beliefs and we get along fine. It's interesting to me that my Christian friends are the ones who are least capable of explaining their beliefs and the multitudinous contradictions and absuridties and are also the most defensive. I also have really good friends who are orthodox jews and they are the most open to lively discussion. In fact some of my best friends are orthodox jews and I will often go to their house on Saturday just to hang out and chat and sometimes their rabbi or other people from their temple will be there and we'll have some great discussions. I also have friends who are Hindu and Muslim but we've never really discussed religion in anything more than a superficial manner. Still we get along just fine.
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You should try interacting with "the faithful" a little more. Might change your outlook.
I do think your attitude is typical of many atheists. It borders on paranoia. Rather than be comfortable with believing in nothing, many atheists get irritated or even angry about the prevalence of religion in society or the fact someone is open about their faith.
I interact with believers and non-believers and I can stomach relationships with all of them.
Believing in nothing. How often have I heard this false claim?! I believe in many things, just not an invisible old man in the sky. The problem with religion is that people can't keep it to themselves, they HAVE to impose it on other people. Granted, not all do this but many do and this needs to be combatted.
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Believing in nothing. How often have I heard this false claim?! I believe in many things, just not an invisible old man in the sky. The problem with religion is that people can't keep it to themselves, they HAVE to impose it on other people. Granted, not all do this but many do and this needs to be combatted.
What can I say? People of faith have lots of good news to share.
How do you propose combating people who share their faith? If you don't like people sharing their faith, then don't listen. Nobody is forcing you or anyone in this country to listen to sermons, read the Bible, go to church, or listen to people they/you don't want to listen too.
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What can I say? People of faith have lots of good news to share.
How do you propose combating people who share their faith? If you don't like people sharing their faith, then don't listen. Nobody is forcing you or anyone in this country to listen to sermons, read the Bible, go to church, or listen to people they/you don't want to listen too.
how about only share the "good news" if someone asks
even harder - realize that alot of people have their own version of "good news" ( including sects within the same fucking religion) and just chill
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how about only share the "good news" if someone asks
even harder - realize that alot of people have their own version of "good news" ( including sects within the same fucking religion) and just chill
Who cares? If you don't like what someone is saying, don't listen. Nobody is forcing you or anyone else to listen to their faith, go to church, etc.
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Who cares? If you don't like what someone is saying, don't listen. Nobody is forcing you or anyone else to listen to their faith, go to church, etc.
bum, just responding to your question. I'm all for free speech
How do you propose combating people who share their faith?
I've noticed the only friends I have who feel compelled to share their faith in the form of converting me are the born again christians. I had a girlfriend who was recently "born again" and all she could talk about was how upset she was because she couldn't convince her parents (who were devout Catholics) to get "saved". She was literally freaked out about it. She was scared to death that her parents were going to hell.
I ONLY see that in Christians
I wish you guys/girls would share that GOOD NEWS a bit less
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bum, just responding to your question. I'm all for free speech
I've noticed the only friends I have who feel compelled to share their faith in the form of converting me are the born again christians. I had a girlfriend who was recently "born again" and all she could talk about was how upset she was because she couldn't convince her parents (who were devout Catholics) to get "saved". She was literally freaked out about it. She was scared to death that her parents were going to hell.
I ONLY see that in Christians
I wish you guys/girls would share that GOOD NEWS a bit less
Again, who cares? Don't listen. I've known several atheists and they were similarly paranoid about anyone talking about their faith.
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Again, who cares? Don't listen. I've known several atheists and they were similarly paranoid about anyone talking about their faith.
I'm not paranoid about you talking about your faith
It just seems that the evangelical, born again christians appear to have their own version of a doomsday cult going on
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Hmmm, i wonder if suicide rates are higher among atheists?
Japan draws up guidelines to cut suicide rate
..."Japan has one of the highest suicide rates for industrial nations, which experts say is due partly to an absence of religious prohibitions against suicide as well as a custom of committing suicide to save loved ones from embarrassment or take responsibility for failure or disgrace."...
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUST142350
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Japan draws up guidelines to cut suicide rate
..."Japan has one of the highest suicide rates for industrial nations, which experts say is due partly to an absence of religious prohibitions against suicide as well as a custom of committing suicide to save loved ones from embarrassment or take responsibility for failure or disgrace."...
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUST142350
I'd guess the cultural factors are more influential.
isn't this the same country that gave the world Kamakaze pilots and Hari Kari?
The majority of the country are Shinto or Buddhist so they're already doomed to spend the afterlife in eternal suffering courtesy of the the loving and benevolent God of Christianity
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I'd guess the cultural factors are more influential.
isn't this the same country that gave the world Kamakaze pilots and Hari Kari?
The majority of the country are Shinto or Buddhist so they're already doomed to spend the afterlife in eternal suffering courtesy of the the loving and benevolent God of Christianity
Shintoism, Buddhism, Islam, secularism and high suicide rate....guess I'm better off as a Christian since Christians are not suicidal.
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Shintoism, Buddhism, Islam, secularism and high suicide rate....guess I'm better off as a Christian since Christians are not suicidal.
Christians aren't suicidal....at ALL?? Where did you find this factoid?
I guess all the people in the categories you listed should savor their time on earth because they face an eternity of agony after death courtesy of that all loving Christian God
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Christians aren't suicidal....at ALL?? Where did you find this factoid?
I wouldn't say that, but numbers should be lower among Christians and Jews.
I'm not surprised that suicide has increased in secular nations. The idea that the human race is nothing but a bunch for primates with absolutely no purpose in life other than to reproduce and die is very depressing and hard to live with for many. Add to that the fact that assisted suicide in those countries tends to be legal and accepted by society, giving people easy and quick access to ending their life without first seeking help or giving it time to see if tomorrow might be a better day.
I guess all the people in the categories you listed should savor their time on earth because they face an eternity of agony after death courtesy of that all loving Christian God
On the contrary, many human beings today enjoy a life of purpose and will also enjoy an eternity in heaven, courtesy of that all loving God who sent his Son Jesus Christ to die for our sins. Many people will come to know Jesus and spend eternity in heaven, courtesy of the many Christian missionaries who give their lives to spread the good news.
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I wouldn't say that, but numbers should be lower among Christians and Jews.
should? let me know when you get some facts.
On the contrary, many human beings today enjoy a life of purpose and will also enjoy an eternity in heaven, courtesy of that all loving God who sent his Son Jesus Christ to die for our sins. Many people will come to know Jesus and spend eternity in heaven, courtesy of the many Christian missionaries who give their lives to spread the good news.
but, as the story goes, that very same loving God condems them to Hell if they can't get with the program
The "Good News" has no value unless you first believe the "Bad News"
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The activities within the church are what helps build the foundation for democracy.
Not the faith itself.
And why have we all these activities in the churches?
It isn't at all like that in other countries. The church is much more faith-only in Europe.
In the USA, several churches have become social clubs, where the Bible studies and the Sunday activity is less an act of worshipping God, and more of interacting with friends.
In England, there are Men's Clubs, Dinner Clubs, Rugby Clubs, Dart Clubs, et al that has the similar function.
Democracy depends on, among other things, social capital. The social capital between people: eg trust.
This is what makes us behave democratic, ie what you perhaps refer to as moral.
This particular social capital becomes high by the very existance of organisations that lets us socialize, activities.
Some non-believers feel that way. To that end, in some cities, there are "humanist centers", or as I call them, "un-churches". I read this in an article online from TIME magazine (linked by AiG). Basically, some atheists feel that being a non-believer is harder, once they get a family, because"When you have kids, you start to notice that your co-workers or friends have church groups to help teach their kids values and to be able to lean on.”
Here's the link to the article, "TIME Magazine: Sunday School for Atheists"
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0%2c9171%2c1686828%2c00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0%2c9171%2c1686828%2c00.html)
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I wouldn't say that, but numbers should be lower among Christians and Jews.
I'm not surprised that suicide has increased in secular nations. The idea that the human race is nothing but a bunch for primates with absolutely no purpose in life other than to reproduce and die is very depressing and hard to live with for many. Add to that the fact that assisted suicide in those countries tends to be legal and accepted by society, giving people easy and quick access to ending their life without first seeking help or giving it time to see if tomorrow might be a better day.
On the contrary, many human beings today enjoy a life of purpose and will also enjoy an eternity in heaven, courtesy of that all loving God who sent his Son Jesus Christ to die for our sins. Many people will come to know Jesus and spend eternity in heaven, courtesy of the many Christian missionaries who give their lives to spread the good news.
Loco, you seem like a very kind person. :) I find those suicide stats interesting, but fail to see where religion is mentioned anywhere as a factor. Approx. 1500 people kill themselves in Latvia per year, 51,000 in the US., but nowhere is it stated who those people were, or why they offed themselves each year. Poland is comprised of 90% practising Christians, yet it's relatively high up there on the suicide ladder. You bolded Canada as a secular country, which it is, however the stats indicate that about 300 more people commit suicide per year than the US. Those aren't exactly compelling numbers in favor of your argument. In fact, the difference between most of the bottom portion of those stats is kind of nominal. How do you know it isn't Dr. Phil saving those extra Americans, or the fact that the US is in general, a heavily medicated country? Also, you may not be aware of this, but suicide rates are rising in the US as well, with teenagers becoming more and more likely to do so.
Loco, the idea of heaven and hell differ between Christians and Jews. I'm interested to know why that is. Since both faiths worship the same God, shouldn't the message concerning the afterlife be the same? Not being a smart ass either. Just would like to know.
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Some non-believers feel that way. To that end, in some cities, there are "humanist centers", or as I call them, "un-churches". I read this in an article online from TIME magazine (linked by AiG). Basically, some atheists feel that being a non-believer is harder, once they get a family, because"When you have kids, you start to notice that your co-workers or friends have church groups to help teach their kids values and to be able to lean on.”
Here's the link to the article, "TIME Magazine: Sunday School for Atheists"
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0%2c9171%2c1686828%2c00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0%2c9171%2c1686828%2c00.html)
Bah, silly arguments from utility say nothing of the truth value of your silly beliefs.
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Some non-believers feel that way. To that end, in some cities, there are "humanist centers", or as I call them, "un-churches". I read this in an article online from TIME magazine (linked by AiG). Basically, some atheists feel that being a non-believer is harder, once they get a family, because"When you have kids, you start to notice that your co-workers or friends have church groups to help teach their kids values and to be able to lean on.”
Here's the link to the article, "TIME Magazine: Sunday School for Atheists"
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0%2c9171%2c1686828%2c00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0%2c9171%2c1686828%2c00.html)
That's a very valid point.
Around here, most kids are involved in various forms of sports and activities with clubs that organizes it locally.
Eg dancing, football, choir, ice hockey, floor hockey, basketball et al.
In general, social activities, for kids or adults, such as bridge nights et al aren't organized through church.
These activities aren't organized by any church, thus the Church isn't working as the same kind of social network as in USA.
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Loco, you seem like a very kind person. :) I find those suicide stats interesting, but fail to see where religion is mentioned anywhere as a factor. Approx. 1500 people kill themselves in Latvia per year, 51,000 in the US., but nowhere is it stated who those people were, or why they offed themselves each year. Poland is comprised of 90% practising Christians, yet it's relatively high up there on the suicide ladder. You bolded Canada as a secular country, which it is, however the stats indicate that about 300 more people commit suicide per year than the US. Those aren't exactly compelling numbers in favor of your argument. In fact, the difference between most of the bottom portion of those stats is kind of nominal. How do you know it isn't Dr. Phil saving those extra Americans, or the fact that the US is in general, a heavily medicated country? Also, you may not be aware of this, but suicide rates are rising in the US as well, with teenagers becoming more and more likely to do so.
Thanks, Deedee! And Happy New Year! I'm actually not claiming anything. Just giving my personal opinion. Statistics give us just numbers. The cause and effect is up for interpretation, but we do need to do our best to find the cause and do something about it. The suicide statistics are surprising and interesting to me. I'm just throwing statistics out there in response to OzmO's question about atheists and suicide. I did hear on the radio a couple of years ago that suicide rates in Switzerland are among the highest in the world, but they did not mention religion. It was more about how money isn't everything. Secularism in Europe contrasted with devotion to God in America is also very interesting to me and it raises many questions.
My point is mainly that the claim that religion poisons everything and that the world would be better off without God is false.
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Loco, the idea of heaven and hell differ between Christians and Jews. I'm interested to know why that is. Since both faiths worship the same God, shouldn't the message concerning the afterlife be the same? Not being a smart ass either. Just would like to know.
This is true, and I don't have an answer for you at this time. I do know that Judaism has many sects and that they disagree among themselves when it comes to the afterlife. Christianity is considered by some to be another Jewish sect, given the fact that Jesus, his apostles and the early Christians were Jews.
I also think that Jews generally place more emphasis on the present life than they do on the afterlife. Christians, on the other hand, place a very high value on the present life too, but place an even higher value on the afterlife, since the present life is brief while the afterlife is for eternity.
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Thanks, Deedee! And Happy New Year! I'm actually not claiming anything. Just giving my personal opinion. Statistics give us just numbers. The cause and effect is up for interpretation, but we do need to do our best to find the cause and do something about it. The suicide statistics are surprising and interesting to me. I'm just throwing statistics out there in response to OzmO's question about atheists and suicide. I did hear on the radio a couple of years ago that suicide rates in Switzerland are among the highest in the world, but they did not mention religion. It was more about how money isn't everything. Secularism in Europe contrasted with devotion to God in America is also very interesting to me and it raises many questions.
My point is mainly that the claim that religion poisons everything and that the world would be better off without God is false.
Using totally irrelevant points...
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Using totally irrelevant points...
If you say so.
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Thanks, Deedee! And Happy New Year! I'm actually not claiming anything. Just giving my personal opinion. Statistics give us just numbers. The cause and effect is up for interpretation, but we do need to do our best to find the cause and do something about it. The suicide statistics are surprising and interesting to me. I'm just throwing statistics out there in response to OzmO's question about atheists and suicide. I did hear on the radio a couple of years ago that suicide rates in Switzerland are among the highest in the world, but they did not mention religion. It was more about how money isn't everything. Secularism in Europe contrasted with devotion to God in America is also very interesting to me and it raises many questions.
My point is mainly that the claim that religion poisons everything and that the world would be better off without God is false.
Happy New Year to you too! :) I'm not sure that the US is all that much more devout in following the teachings of Jesus as you may think. In many areas of the US, people are dependent on the church and their fellow congregants (sp?) as a kind of social network. Career opportunities, safety net in case of illness, social relationships. Much of what people get in more secular countries out of those clubs and activities Hedge mentioned.
Most suicides are the result of socio-economic hardships, mental illness, cultural pressures. It's been proven that inclimate weather is also a factor. The assisted suicides you speak of that are tolerated in more secular countries may be the ultimate act of compassion by a highly evolved, caring culture. (Assisted suicides generally refers to helping those who are ravaged by the extreme pain experienced with terminal illness and lingering in the final months without any shred of human dignity, not aiding some drunken teenager who just broke up with his girlfriend.)
Based on available data it seems that those who are isolated from others are more likely to off themselves. So, a depressed, lonely atheist is probably going to commit suicide long before a depressed Christian with access to a social community. A depressed atheist with a social network is less likely to kill him/herself than a christian living in isolation. We're pack animals.
I think the extraordinary murder rate in the US versus the rest of the civilized world is even more telling.