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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: ironneck on January 16, 2008, 11:25:25 AM

Title: Squats!
Post by: ironneck on January 16, 2008, 11:25:25 AM
who else has pain in the lower back after doing heavy sets?
i really do them clean and proper with a straight back but it still hurts a day after..
i really think of not doing them anymore...you think it will hurt my legs workout?
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: SteelePegasus on January 16, 2008, 11:26:54 AM
do them on the smith machine or use the hack squat..train your muscles not your ego
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: Camel Jockey on January 16, 2008, 11:30:09 AM
Learn proper form and your lowerback will be fine..

Also, alternate deads every week so you don't murder your lower back.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: ironneck on January 16, 2008, 11:30:21 AM
do them on the smith machine or use the hack squat..train your muscles not your ego


i thought about doing them on the smith machine but do you think one can get the same results?
or is the whole "you have to squat to get big" thing way to overrated?
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: Stubborn on January 16, 2008, 11:30:49 AM
Leg press.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: ironneck on January 16, 2008, 11:31:23 AM
Learn proper form and your lowerback will be fine..

Also, alternate deads every week so you don't murder your lower back.

i really do them proper but the combination of squats and deadlifts kills my back...
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: ironneck on January 16, 2008, 11:33:50 AM
Leg press.

usually i do both...first squats then the legpress
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: Bobby on January 16, 2008, 11:43:23 AM
Leg press.

legpress = awesome
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: Overload on January 16, 2008, 11:43:51 AM
i really do them proper but the combination of squats and deadlifts kills my back...

In the same workout?

8)
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: Cleanest Natural on January 16, 2008, 12:01:18 PM
who else has pain in the lower back after doing heavy sets?
i really do them clean and proper with a straight back but it still hurts a day after..
i really think of not doing them anymore...you think it will hurt my legs workout?
::)
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: ironneck on January 16, 2008, 12:05:28 PM
In the same workout?

8)

no not in the same^^
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: ironneck on January 16, 2008, 12:06:29 PM
i own you bitchass sev..
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: joelocal on January 16, 2008, 12:14:45 PM
who else has pain in the lower back after doing heavy sets?
i really do them clean and proper with a straight back but it still hurts a day after..
i really think of not doing them anymore...you think it will hurt my legs workout?

If you still want to squat without irritating your back as much, switch to box squats. Don't do a touch and go, go down, sit and come back up with a forward pelvic tilt, by doing this you will not only develop more power, but also strengthin hip flexors but low back as well.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: JasonH on January 16, 2008, 12:38:47 PM
My lower back tends to hurt more on deadlifts than squats.

Probably because I did deadlifts with shit form when I first started training.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: BFP on January 16, 2008, 12:43:27 PM
Try lowering the bar position on your back and drive your head back into the bar.  Make sure you are doing something to strengthen your abs, not just tone them.

Jason
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: Julio Ceasar on January 16, 2008, 12:52:29 PM
My advice would be. Don't quit doing squats and deadlift. Just give your body the time it need to recover. Sooner or later your pain will go away. Just quit doing them is the easy way out.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: MONSTER_TRICEPS on January 16, 2008, 12:58:35 PM
do them on the smith machine or use the hack squat..train your muscles not your ego

 ::) Obviously you don't know shit about lifting.

Squatting in smith = asking for injuries.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: XFACTOR on January 16, 2008, 01:00:43 PM
If you still want to squat without irritating your back as much, switch to box squats. Don't do a touch and go, go down, sit and come back up with a forward pelvic tilt, by doing this you will not only develop more power, but also strengthin hip flexors but low back as well.

I'll try this.  As we speak I'm sitting in my office with lower back pain from squats.  I assume you use less weight?
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: XFACTOR on January 16, 2008, 01:03:04 PM
::) Obviously you don't know shit about lifting.

Squatting in smith = asking for injuries.

Really?  I also thought the smith was easier on the back.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: The Squadfather on January 16, 2008, 01:06:01 PM
Really?  I also thought the smith was easier on the back.
the problem with the Smith is that you run into what some expert called "pattern overload" or something where you're on a fixed plane, i don't know about all that but the advantage of teh Smith is that you can throw your feet out in front of you and keep your back totally straight but barbell squats are definitely more of a natural movement.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: joelocal on January 16, 2008, 01:07:10 PM
I'll try this.  As we speak I'm sitting in my office with lower back pain from squats.  I assume you use less weight?

I'll answer further later, in the meantime, read my responses from this thread from awhile ago especially reply #8, it will help prevent further injury, I was the coach then.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=162586.0
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: XFACTOR on January 16, 2008, 01:19:56 PM
the problem with the Smith is that you run into what some expert called "pattern overload" or something where you're on a fixed plane, i don't know about all that but the advantage of teh Smith is that you can throw your feet out in front of you and keep your back totally straight but barbell squats are definitely more of a natural movement.

I like the idea of throwing my feet further out in front.  Maybe work on my weak quad sweep.  I would bet my form is shit on squats this is why my back hurts.

 You guys encourage belts?   Was reading somewhere that Charles Glass has his guys all wear them no matter what exercise they are doing.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: The Squadfather on January 16, 2008, 01:23:37 PM
I like the idea of throwing my feet further out in front.  Maybe work on my weak quad sweep.  I would bet my form is shit on squats this is why my back hurts.

 You guys encourage belts?   Was reading somewhere that Charles Glass has his guys all wear them no matter what exercise they are doing.
ALWAYS wear a good belt on squats, invest in a good one and it will last you for decades.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: BFP on January 16, 2008, 01:25:22 PM
I'll try this.  As we speak I'm sitting in my office with lower back pain from squats.  I assume you use less weight?

lower back pain or muscle soreness?  I get sore, but never have any lower back pain.

Jason
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: ironneck on January 16, 2008, 01:39:47 PM
thanks guys for alle the replies!

i will try jason's advice and if it still hurts i will try doing squats every second week

Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: Emmortal on January 16, 2008, 01:41:57 PM
Try lowering the bar position on your back and drive your head back into the bar.  Make sure you are doing something to strengthen your abs, not just tone them.

Jason

x10.  Weighted crunches are a great support exercises for squats, and as Pegg recommended, push your neck back into the bar.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: HTexan on January 16, 2008, 01:46:37 PM
my back hurts when i squat too, but my form sucks :-\
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: XFACTOR on January 16, 2008, 01:46:58 PM
lower back pain or muscle soreness?  I get sore, but never have any lower back pain.

Jason

Good point.  Maybe it's muscle soreness, and I'm having difficulty differentiating.  
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: bebop396 on January 16, 2008, 02:44:24 PM
The mechanics of the squat and the deadlift are the same, why do both?
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: mass 04 on January 16, 2008, 03:20:27 PM
do them on the smith machine or use the hack squat..train your muscles not your ego

for some reason Smith Machine squats DESTROY my knees. I tried them with just 225 a few weeks ago and they killed me. I have never had a problem with plain back squats.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: thewickedtruth on January 16, 2008, 04:09:05 PM
get the bar lower and don't lean forward so much..usually when your lower back starts to take a beating you're leaning forward and "good morning" the weight up throughout the movement.

Elbows down to keep the back tight
Head up looking towards the top of the cage
Chest out..

and that will take care of your LB problems.



work on exercises that build up your lower back so it doesn't fatigue so quickly and like jason said..work your core as well to stabilize you throughout the lift.

STAY THE FUCK OFF THE SMITH!  >:(
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: The Squadfather on January 16, 2008, 04:10:54 PM
smith squats with the feet out in front are primarily a hamstring and glute movement anyway with the quads being secondary movers.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: Hedgehog on January 16, 2008, 04:18:36 PM
who else has pain in the lower back after doing heavy sets?
i really do them clean and proper with a straight back but it still hurts a day after..
i really think of not doing them anymore...you think it will hurt my legs workout?

Stretch out the glute, use these types of excersies. Some of these will also stretch out the back. Do it before even warming up.

From what you've mentioned, it seems like this will help you stay squatting.

(http://www.exrx.net/Stretches/GluteusMaximus/PNFLying.jpg)

(http://www.exrx.net/StretchImages/GluteusMaximus/Lying.jpg)

(http://www.exrx.net/StretchImages/Machine/PCGlute.jpg)

(http://www.exrx.net/StretchImages/GluteusMaximus/ProneGlute.jpg)

(http://www.exrx.net/StretchImages/GluteusMaximus/SeatedGlute.jpg)
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: webcake on January 16, 2008, 04:19:45 PM
Just go lighter when doing squats. I was having a bit of back pain, but now when i do squats i just use a lighter weight and higher reps (around 15 or so). I genuinely believe squats can be just as effective when using a lighter weight, higher reps, as opposed to using very heavy weight and lower reps.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: thewickedtruth on January 16, 2008, 04:22:26 PM
smith squats with the feet out in front are primarily a hamstring and glute movement anyway with the quads being secondary movers.

not only that but you're trying to MAKE your body to a movment on a fixed plane that it's not designed to do and that will not only end up killing your knees but you will not get the development you will get from free weights. And I don't care how much you leg press, you won't be able to bottom out 315 on a squat even if you're mr. plate hog. If your exucse is safety on the smith then use a cage and set the pins to save your ass. There's really no excuse for not squatting...if you have bad knees then buy wraps. Every excuse I've heard why people DON'T squat is just one more lame ass excuse instead of a reason. I wish I started squatting YEARS ago. You will never develop great leg development, extensions, hacks, and no matter WHAT people tell you until you squat unless you're a paul demayo or platz and guess what..they both squatted.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: kh300 on January 16, 2008, 06:25:49 PM
i like to put 10 pound plates under my heals. i dont know what the fuck it does, but i can get get good depth and it takes the pressure off my back.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: sinbad on January 16, 2008, 06:33:33 PM
There is nothing you can do Neck, just live with it. All the stuff mentioned will help, but it will still hurt. I had a bunch of injection, then surgery, and it still hurts. I know I am a retard for even doing squats, but for some reason I just keep doing them. I use light weight now, but I feel better if I do some squating. Be careful tho cause that surgery experience was horrible.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: joelocal on January 16, 2008, 07:08:33 PM
This is a repost from a couple of months ago..............



I deal with this alot with my own clients and especially my athletes and what I'm going to say, you're not going to like, but I'll try to explain it so it will make sense.

Even though your primary muscles are strong enough to pull the weight, you're stabilizers haven't recovered enough to sustain the pulling of your primary muscles, you stabilizer in this case would be your psoas, it's the muscle that runs from the lower lumbar to almost your adductor

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e196/Intenseone/psoas.jpg)


the only way to strengthen your low back and psoas to get back your original strength is to train your low back indirectly by doing unilateral leg training (light and progressivly working heavier) then after a 2-3 weeks progressing to two legs then eventually adding loads. incorporating core work such as working transverse abdominus will also be a huge benefit.
 
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Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: sinbad on January 16, 2008, 07:18:28 PM
Coach, can you give an example of a work out along these lines? Also, what Box squats exactly? I am willing to try anything at this point. Thanks

This is a repost from a couple of months ago..............



I deal with this alot with my own clients and especially my athletes and what I'm going to say, you're not going to like, but I'll try to explain it so it will make sense.

Even though your primary muscles are strong enough to pull the weight, you're stabilizers haven't recovered enough to sustain the pulling of your primary muscles, you stabilizer in this case would be your psoas, it's the muscle that runs from the lower lumbar to almost your adductor

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e196/Intenseone/psoas.jpg)


the only way to strengthen your low back and psoas to get back your original strength is to train your low back indirectly by doing unilateral leg training (light and progressivly working heavier) then after a 2-3 weeks progressing to two legs then eventually adding loads. incorporating core work such as working transverse abdominus will also be a huge benefit.
 
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Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: joelocal on January 16, 2008, 10:41:16 PM
Coach, can you give an example of a work out along these lines? Also, what Box squats exactly? I am willing to try anything at this point. Thanks


Start with 10 min warm up on elliptical

10 -15 min dynamic warm up;

Hip rotations
Scorpions
walking lunge 15 yards
Static stretch

Box Squats on 18" box to start, as back gets stronger gradually lower or Trap bar deadlifts 4 X 3-5

Bulgarian Split squat - 12-15 reps BW to start as low back gets stronger add 15lb DB's

Step ups - 3 x 12

Glute/Ham bench extentions emphasizing hams - 3 x 10 supersetted w/

1 leg SLD - 3 x 10

Start with a low comfortable weight and add 10% each week.

Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: SLYY on January 16, 2008, 10:50:01 PM
My back started to hurt after back squats as well.....

My answer= front squats
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: Hedgehog on January 16, 2008, 10:50:20 PM
Start with 10 min warm up on elliptical

10 -15 min dynamic warm up;

Hip rotations
Scorpions
walking lunge 15 yards
Static stretch

Box Squats on 18" box to start, as back gets stronger gradually lower or Trap bar deadlifts 4 X 3-5

Bulgarian Split squat - 12-15 reps BW to start as low back gets stronger add 15lb DB's

Step ups - 3 x 12

Glute/Ham bench extentions emphasizing hams - 3 x 10 supersetted w/

1 leg SLD - 3 x 10

Start with a low comfortable weight and add 10% each week.



You should try having your "clients" stretching their glutes before warming up sometime. Very effective.

Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: joelocal on January 16, 2008, 10:52:51 PM
My back started to hurt after back squats as well.....

My answer= front squats

I did the same thing, I just switched to DB squats on a 30 degree platform, my lower lumbar compensated too much on the front load and made it worse.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: joelocal on January 16, 2008, 10:56:42 PM
You should try having your "clients" stretching their glutes before warming up sometime. Very effective.



We always do a glute activation technique, since the glutes are an "off" or "phasic"  muscle same as the psoas, I usually have them do a one leg hip lift (Cook hip lift) for activation after that they will use a foam roller for a myofacial release.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: TOMCAT on January 16, 2008, 11:16:20 PM
I hurt my lower back 12 years ago by putting too much weight on the bar using poor form to do squats.

long story short I ended up pulling a lower back muscle and ended up in the hospital because I had never felt pain like that before.

They shot me up 3 times with pain killers so I could walk out of there but they really cant do much else

ever since then my back will go out on me ,the last time it did I was trainning tris doing suicides when I got up to set the bar down "boom",my back was toast that quick.

morale of the story is tread lightly when your lower back starts hurting because once it goes your fucked

I still do squats but less weight and more reps just to be safe


you should also strenghten your core muscles(crunches,leg lifts,etc...)

also doesnt hurt to stretch your lower back


good luck 
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: ironneck on January 17, 2008, 05:51:24 AM
thank you guys let's see if jason's advice works for me
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: musclecenter on January 17, 2008, 06:21:17 AM
Hey ,guys
I started having chronic problems in my lower back (a slipped, compressed disc) in 1980s. When I went to see doctors, they warned me that if did not have an operation, I could be paralyzed!! They warned that I could soon be unable to walk!!
However, I have seen many guys who became paralyzed after an operation, so I decided not to have that operation. I have kept training carefully since then - especially when doing squats.

Since then, I have developed some unique techniques that I  demonstrated here.


This pic show how I " squat" with rop on smith-machine !and my legs still looking good as a old fart ! ;D ;D
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: coltrane on January 17, 2008, 06:25:27 AM
If you still want to squat without irritating your back as much, switch to box squats. Don't do a touch and go, go down, sit and come back up with a forward pelvic tilt, by doing this you will not only develop more power, but also strengthin hip flexors but low back as well.

Precisely the advice i WOULD NOT give.  Box squats have more of a tendancy to irraitate a lower back bc when you actually sit, most of the pressure is on that lower back. 

Before squatting, do a few sets of back hyperextentions to warm the area up.  Also, drop the weight and focus on form.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: joelocal on January 17, 2008, 06:47:47 AM
Precisely the advice i WOULD NOT give.  Box squats have more of a tendancy to irraitate a lower back bc when you actually sit, most of the pressure is on that lower back. 

Before squatting, do a few sets of back hyperextentions to warm the area up.  Also, drop the weight and focus on form.


"If you still want to squat without irritating your back as much"

IF he still insists on doing squats, box squats would take the pressure OFF of the lower lumbar while at the same time strengthining by using the pelvic tilt method. Even doing light regular squats would put too much compression on the lower back because it is constantly contracted.

Now if he has damage to his lower back (pull or severe strain) I wouldn't recommend him doing any squats exept for light DB or bodyweight and that would only be 3 sets max for 2-4 weeks. If he has access to a reverse hyper bench, that would be worlds better than regular hypers.



But before jumping into all of this........Ice, Ibuprofin and rest.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: coltrane on January 17, 2008, 06:50:17 AM
Joe youre dead wrong on this one

Doing box's will place a greater stress on the lower back...it compresses the disks moreso than a normal squat would. 

Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: XFACTOR on January 17, 2008, 06:52:59 AM
Joe youre dead wrong on this one

Doing box's will place a greater stress on the lower back...it compresses the disks moreso than a normal squat would. 



That does make sense. 
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: joelocal on January 17, 2008, 06:54:40 AM
Joe youre dead wrong on this one

Doing box's will place a greater stress on the lower back...it compresses the disks moreso than a normal squat would. 



We are not talking about disc damage.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: The Squadfather on January 17, 2008, 06:58:12 AM
doing box squats to alleviate back pain is the dumbest thing i've ever heard, the whole point is that there is still a heavy bar on your back compressing your spine and that's what causes back pain from squats, if you have a GENUINE back problem then just do hacks and leg presses without letting the ass come up off the seat.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: coltrane on January 17, 2008, 06:59:31 AM
We are not talking about disc damage.


the guy is talking about his lower back pains. could be disc or nerve.  regardless it's probably gonna be associated with the area around his spine.  

reason im so adament about this is bc i messed up my lower back with the boxes and saw a dr. regarding it.  Specifically said that the box squat is more likely to wreck havoc on the lower back because when your ass hits the box and has nowhere to go, and that weight is pushing from above, the point of stress is now your lower back.  With reg. squats, there is no box involved that would cause such compression.

hope this helps.


for the author of the thread too-->try some heavy, high rep leg presses ..sets of 20-30
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: joelocal on January 17, 2008, 06:59:46 AM
That does make sense. 

Try it. One of the main reasons for low back pain, is not only weak low back, but weak glutes, weak hams, weak psoas and pelvic imbalance. If the posterior chain is strong, it's cuts down on low back problems in the future. All I'm saying is if you INSIST on squating, that's the way to do it. It hasn't failed me yet.
Title: Re: Squats!
Post by: joelocal on January 17, 2008, 07:00:46 AM

the guy is talking about his lower back pains. could be disc or nerve.  regardless it's probably gonna be associated with the area around his spine.  




Then he shouldn't be squatting at all.